Flying in Thailand

[Okavango]

Hi. We're holidaying in Thailand later this month and I just wondered if there were any relaible operators from whom I might be able to rent a C152? Any experience of GA in the region would also be appreciated.

[172driver]

I looked into this a while ago and found this (http://www.thaiflyingclub.com/). In the end didn't go, but let us know how you get on!

[Will Hung]

Flown fro Ban Phra many times, and landing there is very interesting, especially on 23 ? (From memory). It's been some time since I was ripped-off flying there. The problem is, or certainly was, that all the instructors who can sign you off, are all military, (check out the suits on the web-site), and instruct part-time for some extra dough. Therefore, it's in their interests to drag-out your validation as long as possible. You will also have to pay a not inconsiderale joining fee. My advise, for what it's worth, is, if you're only there on a holiday, just go up with an instructor as a pleasure flight, paying by the hour.

[Phil Space]

I'm afraid things have changed quite a lot in Thailand following the much publicised accident at Phuket and a smaller incident involving a Cessna 172 which was flown by a British 'instructor' and came down overloaded at Chiang Mai. (Thankfully the four on board walked away.) You now have to sit a Thai Air law exam and a CRM paper which along with a Thai validation can take in excess of three months. On top of that the validation is only good for the club where you take the test. The only place in Thailand that rents on a self fly basis is Nok Flying Club in Chiang Mai. They also have a gliding club.

In short apart from a local flight with an instructor from Chiang Mai Nok Flying club or the Royal Thai Flying Club in Pattaya your chances of getting airborne whilst on holiday are slim. Where are you holidaying?

For ex pat residents of Thailand the flying is superb although some of the restrictions can appear petty for those used to the freedom of European or US flying.
NOK Aviation home page (http://www.nokaviation.com/)

[500 above]

Hi all.

Google MPAviation and send Mike an e-mail. (Condor Man!)

Good luck.

[Phil Space]

Mike at MP encountered similar problems on his Christmas trip to Thailand.
He will no doubt expand on how a few ex pats messed things up for GA in Thailand last year.

[Will Hung]

What's the story on the over-loaded 172 Phil ?

[Phil Space]

A retired English guy who was 'instructing' at Chiang Mai Flying Club took off from a laterite strip near Chiang Mai on a hot day in HS-TVS with three visiting UK passengers. The aircraft was overloaded.Take a look at the airframe and see if you can identify what else the pilot forgot to do apart from a weight and balance calculation?

All survived with minor injuries. Looking at the pictures they were lucky.

http://www.212cafe.com/freewebboard/user_board/tvs007/picture/00631_0.jpghttp://www.212cafe.com/freewebboard/user_board/tvs007/picture/00631_1.jpghttp://www.212cafe.com/freewebboard/user_board/tvs007/picture/00631_10.jpg

[Will Hung]

Sorry Phil, could you try pasting the photo again ?

[BackPacker]

see if you can identify what else the pilot forgot to do

Looks like he forgot to put his seat back in the upright position.

Oh, and from one of the other photos on the site you can see the last three digits of the transponder: x004. He wasn't going to aerobat a 172, was he?

[Will Hung]

Dunno, remove foliage from the flap hinges maybe ?

Go on, put us out of our misery.

[Phil Space]

An overloaded 172 is more inclined to get airborne without full flaps:ok:

[Will Hung]

Are you serious ? I thought maybe it was a landing accident because of the full flap.

[Phil Space]

No joke.I flew the aircraft and met the 'instructor' concerned some months prior to the accident.
He was quick to let everyone know he was a former London met policeman:=

On the day of the accident the temperature was about 35c and there were four large people on board plus full flap. As you can imagine the aircraft was not in a hurry to fly from a dirt airstrip!

It later transpired that his paperwork needed attention. Suffice to say the Thai
Department of Aviation were not impressed.

[Will Hung]

Truly amazing. It wouldn't have got airborne from Cape Canaveral in that configuration !

[BackPacker]

If you do a bit of hacking on the URL of the photos you can access other pictures of the 172 too. On one of them there is a gauge labeled "wing flap something". The needle in that gauge seems to be at about 15 degrees, not at the maximum of 40 degrees. None of the pictures show the flap select lever itself though and only the starboard flap is visible in any of the pictures.

So based on the pictures alone I would hesitate to say that the flaps were indeed fully down on takeoff. It might also have been accident damage to the flap motor or something.

Enough circumstantial evidence though...

[Phil Space]

It is the old swiss cheese syndrome. One mistake is too many but four adults,fuel,high temperature,dirt strip,etc:=

To make matters worse the aircraft had no hull insurance so the owner lost the lot. I believe the pilots medical and validation were out of date as well. The last I heard he was facing some interesting legal issues.

The aircraft belonged to a German pilot on a round the world flight who had it confiscated when he landed at a non customs airfield on arrival in Thailand. The story goes that he lost his rag with the police and they pulled out all the stops in retaliation.

The aircraft was then sold to a local Thai businessman.

[Will Hung]

Never a good idea to lose your rag with the Thai Police.

I have no doubt that the police involved done very nicely out of it, and the new owner got a bargain ! Everyone's a winner. (Except the German Farang).

[Phil Space]

You certainly know how it works in Thailand Will:ok:

[Mike Parsons]

There is a chilling video of the takeoff run and to the point where the plane got slightly airborne. The stall warning kept sounding more or less constantly once it left the ground and it wasn't gaining any height anytime soon that's for sure! The video is on you tube somewhere; if it is still kicking around. One of the pictures was trying to point out the engine wasn't making full power on the takeoff run, but it isn't too clear on the video.

[Mike Parsons]

This is the link I was talking about YouTube - Last minute before Cessna 172 crash into a house. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8nb845lDWMk)

[BackPacker]

At 0:07 you can see the flap indicator gauge (just left of the RH yoke) sitting at 40 degrees. At least, that's what it looks like.

Awfully long dirt strip, with plenty time to decide you're not going to make it. Plenty of forced landing places too, looks like, at the end of the strip.

[Mike Parsons]

Also, Have a look at the comments on the video. Some great one's, however Look for the one directing you to do a google search. On that link there is some high res pictures. (One of them has blood on and around the cockpit)

[172driver]

Doesn't look too good :(

Alas, the flap switch is not visible, so not clear if the 'full flap' was pre or post accident. Seem like a very slow acceleration to me. Do you know the OAT on the day? Altimeter shows something like 950 ft, but mix is full rich. Most likey OK unless very hot, but four adults..... in a 172.... :=

[Mike Parsons]

As mentioned, this google search "212cafe ,tvs007 ,id=1061" reveals one link which has the photos on. This was posted as a comment on the youtube video.

Also, if you look on one of the pictures, 172driver, you mention the temp. I would imagine it would be hot, however can you see a "Carb Temp" gauge on the cockpit - that is swung right round to the right (I know that will not be OAT because of the temp drop - if the sensor is in the right place), but still.

[172driver]

Hmmmm..... are we sure the interior pics were taken during the accident flight? I refer specifically to the one captioned 'full flaps'. Look at the altimeter there: it reads about 1100ft. However, on the video it reads 950ft..... so, my dear Mr Watson, whaddoyouthink?

[Mike Parsons]

Good point 172, the first pic shows the 950, again with Full Flap text on there. If you compare the position of the needle of any pic stating full flap and in the video they are the same.

[IO540]

Surely a 172 would achieve some sort of positive climb rate even with full flaps?

What we don't know is how overloaded it might have been, or how knackered the engine was.

[172driver]

IO, have you ever flown a 172 ???

For those who haven't: out of the gazillion variants of the basic Cessna design, there are basically two when it come to flaps: the 30 deg and the 40 deg variety (I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to say there's also a 27.5deg variant, but let's leave that aside).

The POH of the 172N says 'approved takeoff range - 0-10 degs'. So, full flaps is, at the very least, not a manufacturer approved operation.

I have flown both variants, but am more familiar with the 30deg models. In both cases, the max flap setting is essentially a massive air brake. In the 40deg variety, this can be quite scary the first time you do it on landing - the a/c feels like it's hit something in mid air. Think of driving and braking - hard.

There are many clubs/FBOs/FTOs who while operating these a/c do not allow the use of full flaps (other than in emergency, of course), for the simple reason that with 40 deg flaps the a/c will go only one way - down.

I've never tried a t/o with full flaps and would not like to try other than on a very long rwy where I could safely 'mush' her back onto the tarmac.

I have no idea if the accident a/c was equipped with the 40deg flaps, but from the video it looks like a pretty old airframe and these normally are the ones that have 'em. Four up, hot, a bit high AND anything more than 10deg flaps....:ugh::ugh:

PS: to be clear, I cannot see anything in the videos or pics that shows conclusively that full flaps were indeed deployed.

[IO540]

Don't recollect doing so... did the PPL partly in C152s. I take it you are going to tell me it does not climb at all with full flap?

[172driver]

Basically you are correct. See above (got distracted while posting and expanded the argument a bit later).

[Phil Space]

Surely a 172 would achieve some sort of positive climb rate even with full flaps?

What we don't know is how overloaded it might have been, or how knackered the engine was.

It was a Reims Cessna F172F. It was maintained properly and its O 300 engine produced the power you would expect at the density altitude. Chiang Mai is around 1,000ft above sea level.
The temperature is usually 30-35c in the shade with humidity up in the 80's to 90's.Because of the lack of avgas in Thailand it is normal and wise to go everywhere with a reasonable amout of fuel. ie full tanks. He was lucky he did not hit the high tension power lines on the climb out. I'm just amazed that he carried on with the take off roll when it was obvious it was taking longer than normal:=

We were all flying HS TVS without DCA authorisation, it was privately owned and only the owner was registered as a pilot in it.Since August 2007 any pilot who flew HS TVS was subject to legal action on behalf of the DCA with huge fines!:hmm:

[172driver]

I am not familiar with the Reims 172F - does this one have the 40deg flap ?

However, a quick Google and density alt calculation give the following:

Engine: O-300 - 145 hp
DA: 3700 ft (using 1013 as I don't know the altimeter setting of the day)

Four up, full tank, dirt strip....:=:=

[Phil Space]

It certainly did have 40 flaps and they were full down during the power check!
Also note the fuel guage:= The altimeter setting is the elevation at Lamphun airstrip.
http://www.212cafe.com/freewebboard/user_board/tvs007/picture/01061_1.jpg

[Mike Parsons]

172driver, that last photo posted has the same position of the flap indicator as in the video.

I think the thread should be renamed!! :}

[172driver]

You got a point - how about 'How NOT to take off in a 172' ?

[Will Hung]

So then Okavango, has that answered your question ? !!!!!!!:confused: