Senior Moments

[AMEandPPL]

Getting towards mid-sixties, I suppose it's reasonable to expect a few minor "senior moments". But it's slightly more alarming when it involves the hobby of aviation !

On Saturday last the weather was glorious, and I flew around our local area for just over an hour. Did a smooth landing, refuelled, parked, paid for fuel . . . . . . . and then
went home leaving the master switch still on ! ! ! Because it was so sunny, the rotating tail beacon was not obvious, and was not spotted for over two more hours ! Result : battery completely flat !
In over 23 years of flying same plane (and had PPL 26 years) I have NEVER done this before. Just so embarrassing ! :=

Anyone else got any "senior moments" they are willing to admit to and tell others about on here ?

[shortstripper]

I dunno if I should admit to this :\

I once landed after an hour or so of local flying and realised I'd not strapped in! :eek: So much for pre-flight, and pre-landing checks :eek:

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............. Still not sure I should have admitted to that one :eek:

[Pace]

I have had senior moments since I started flying 20 years ago. Not sure they are senior moments but just being human :)

Pace

[flybymike]

Forgot to shut the P1 door on one flight (didnt notice due propwash) and chastised myself remorselessly. The following flight a week later I forgot to shut the baggage door......

[IFMU]

The old master switch senior moment I've done at least twice. I'm advanced for my age.

My worst senior moment was a double-header on one flight. I used to own a Blanik L33 solo sailplane. One flight I was a little rushed as the towplane was ready to hook up before I had my brain engaged. The glider was a lot louder than usual. I rationalized it as tape coming off the wing root or the little panel behind the headrest being not pulled in tight. After about 1.5 hours, in conditions that looked a lot better than they seemed to be, I was looking out at the wings and realized the spoilers were cracked. Locked them down, it got a lot quieter and all of a sudden performance was much better. As I was about 10 miles away at the time, the newly found performance emboldened me and I struck out a bit further. While running between some clouds in and out of sink I hit a good bump and hit my head on the canopy. I think "well, I should probably tighten up the harness a bit." Looked down to find I was sitting on the lap belt, one shoulder harness, and the other shoulder harness was back in the tail cone somewhere. Managed to get myself buckled in without doing a John Denver, though by the time I got my head back in the flying I had burned through 2000', was flying 70kts in bad sink. On the bright side I did have my chute buckled up.

I find that I tend to remember my senior moments in such a way as to prevent their recurrance. Before I get out of the airplane I remember the one time I killed the battery. The other time I killed the battery was a little different, I was showing my dad how the tow reel worked in the hangar, it was out of normal sequence and I forgot to turn it off after the demo. And as far a seatbelts & spoilers, that little flight always crosses my mind as I get ready to go.

-- IFMU

[Chuck Ellsworth]

One night after being away for some time as is common for pilots I said to my wife " Jeses you feel good Susan "....my wife's name is Joan. :E

[Keygrip]

Your ex wife's name *was* Joan?

[Romeo India Xray]

I dunno if I should admit to this http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wibble.gif

I once landed after an hour or so of local flying and realised I'd not strapped in! http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif So much for pre-flight, and pre-landing checks http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif


Many times when I found out at the hold, pre take off. Within the last 3 months I got it up to 200' before I noticed. Reason being - no holding point, power checks had been completed on the RW. :ugh:

Would never admit to having gone as far as you though, especially in a 737 in commercial ops. :O (OK, harness was on, just hadn't rotated the buckle release knob far enough back to secure the shoulder straps (I thought). Got downline and found out it also hadn't fully secured the lap strap either (while wriggling to look out for GSU equipment).

RIX

[IO540]

Done the master switch bit a few times....

In the TB20GT you can achieve the same result by leaving the courtesy light on - it's advisable to remove the bulb from it.

[Whirlygig]

I always thought thst leaving the master switch on was one of those things that, if you haven't already done it, you will!!

I have!!!

Cheers

Whirls

[pulse1]

I've never forgotten my straps but, on a flight to LFAT with another pilot with me, we were half way across the water when we realised we had both forgotten to put our life jackets on.

As I approach 70 I am only too aware of real senior moments in my non flying activities but, so far, the only flying ones I will admit to are forgetting to start the descent in a normal circuit after a cross country flight. Just as well I enjoy sideslipping and glide approaches.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have had senior moments since I started flying 20 years ago. Not sure they are senior moments but just being human :)

Pace

You and me both!

G

[172driver]

I always thought thst leaving the master switch on was one of those things that, if you haven't already done it, you will!!

.... and I just joined the club.... :{

[DeeCee]

I left the masters on and flattened the battery at Deauville in a PA28. One of the mechanics took it out and put it on charge. He told me to come back in a few hours so I spent a pleasant day in Honnfleur. On my return the mechanic put the battery back in and refused to take any money - even for a drink.

The moral is; if you are going to do something stupid, do it at Deauville. Honnfleur is well worth a visit by the way.

[Will Hung]

Took off from a relatively short runway on a hot day with carb heat on once. The revs were audibly 'different' and at about 100' realised the error of my ways. Gave myself a thorough beating-up, and vowed never again. Haven't yet !!!

[javelin]

I once went for a medical and when the Doc handed me the form to sign I had to move it away so I could read it - That was a Senior Moment that added glasses to my medical :hmm:

[JohnRayner]

I'm not senior, but I do have moments.... :}

[popliviustefan]

Don't worry...
I'm still in school and after the first year I already saw at my colleagues:
- forgot to latch the door
- forgot to strapp in
- forgot to set the QNH of the landing aerodrome

Now from me:
- forgot to remove the pitot cover (a colleague observed it before starting the engine)
- forgot to strapp in (but remembered about it at the "before takeoff check")

[AMEandPPL]

It's nice to hear of other peoples' "senior moments" ! Glad to know I'm not the only one !

The mention of the altimeter setting in the last post reminded me of a long straight-in approach I made to Welshpool some years back. As I got closer and closer something was just "not right". Then I realised with horror that, although I had been given, and written down, the QFE . . . . . . I had not actually changed the setting on the altimeter ! For those not familiar, Welshpool is 233 ft AMSL, and a busy road crosses nearly at the threshold of rwy 22 !

Result : battery completely flat !

To continue my joy, our Engineers are closed all the festive week, so no charge or jump leads there ! I had to remove the battery, and bring it home to charge overnight. I've refitted it this afternoon, and the engine fired first turn of the key !

Hopefully, the mistake will never be repeated !

[Piper.Classique]

Senior moments.....
Oh yes!
leaving the map behind when flying a triangular x/c in a glider
three hundred miles with a hand towel drying on the strut (which fell off on landing.....)
forgetting to pay for my fuel

But not all on the same flight at least :)

[Keygrip]

Nobody has mentioned the nose wheel chock, yet. :(

[bkehoe]

What - the trying to taxi and wondering why it's taking a tad more throttle than normal to get moving :}

[IFMU]

Took off from a relatively short runway on a hot day with carb heat on once.
Another classic screw up! I did this when I was a new tow pilot, in a super cub. Climbed through 2000' with a glider in tow, ekeing out a pitiful 150'/minute. I just though it was an awful day. When I realized my error, the last 1000' went rather more quickly. These days I only use the carb heat when conditions are likely to be condusive to carb ice, or at least the probability of carb ice higher than my probablility to forget to turn off the carb heat.

A more recent senior moment, while getting beat up during instrument training. After doing a missed approach at one airport, I forgot to put the gear back up. Back home I went to drop the gear when I intercepted the glideslope, and it was already down. That was embarassing. However I'm not sure if that counts as senior or just workload induced. That is part of what the training is for, to get you overloaded and screwing up when it doesn't really count yet.

What a great thread this is.

-- IFMU

[AMEandPPL]

What a great thread this is

Why, thank you, kind sir ! I'm really enjoying it too !

:ok:

[papa600]

(not so) senior moment while training - checking full and free movement - rudder pedals a bit stiff (actually VERY stiff) - instructor jumps out to take a look - rudder lock firmly in place :eek:

Lesson? - never trust anyone who says she's all checked out and ready to go!:= - even if he is an instructor!

[shanwen]

My 'senior' moment was probably more due to ignorance and stupidity. For some inexplicable reason I ignored a magneto drop during my pre-take off check before a solo flight, while still a student. After getting airborne I was horrified to see that the engine was not producing anything near full power. Not being able to land ahead , I flew a low [ +- 200ft] slow [ just above stall speed] and very short circuit. I had to be particularly careful in each turn not to hasten the stall and consequently used hardly any bank angle. Somehow, I managed to get back onto the runway in one piece, but with shattered nerves.

I learnt a great deal from this humbling experience.
Fly safely.

[popliviustefan]

forgetting to pay for my fuel


Piper be careful with that! A friend of mine was about to be busted for this at a gas station. He had a rough day and after filling up he completly forgot to pay. He only realised that when he was informed he will be sued by the gas company :eek: Eventually he escaped with only a fine...

[Keygrip]

Can I have a junior moment?

Solo circuit consolidation during my basic PPL training, fully established runway 31 at Blackpool. Three hundred feet to go, ATC demand "Go Around".

Ooooh! Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. OK, no response to tower yet, but is it full power OR reduce the drag to make the flying easier?

Left the trickle of power, dropped flap lever (PA28) from full 40° to zero in one swift move. :{

I don't do that anymore.

[doctorb]

Thanks for all the info. on things to avoid. I will surely have moments in the future but just now I am very conscious of recent training. Aged over 70 I started flight training mid september this year and completed PPL late November after only 32 days flying. The worst part of the episode was getting a Class 2 medical as I travel a bit, Gatwick for 1st Medical -supplementary medical in France then further supplementary medical in Spain. One might have thought I was on my last legs - far from it as I ski 5 months in the winter. It may have been something to do with my age or perhaps they thought I was mad!
I had scheduled going to Anglo American Aviation in the States but at the eleventh hour they had their training licence revoked by the US Authorities and I was left in limbo. I quickly arranged to go to Sandtoft Flying School near Doncaster, a very good last minute choice, friendly efficient place at a small airfield with little traffic. Late in the year weather was not the best - hence the extra time taken. Now waiting for the New Year to continue flying, but in France with new planes and possible language problems to face. Who said life should be easy?

[gfunc]

By far the worst mistake I've made is to take off with the primer unlocked. I was flying the Alarus which can be out-climbed by canal barges in locks at the best of times and this day it was close to +30C. Just out of the ground effect the climb was about 100fpm, but I managed a low level circuit to land on a crossing runway. I don't recommend it.

I do remember pushing it in before start, but I must have not rotated it properly (or rotated it exactly 180/360 degrees). It was a bit easy to pull out on this particular aircraft, so I guess it worked its way out before departure. Remember, primer in AND locked!

Gareth.

[18greens]

Ones very experienced friends of mine have admitted to:

Starting a tailwheel aircraft with the throttle wide open. Fast reactions required to prevent the aircraft tipping over.

Starting an aircraft with the bubble canopy unlatched (and shortly after wide open) Jolly lucky it wasn't damaged.

Taxiing with the concrete tie down still attached. I've heard of people who've managed to take off with the tie down attached. Makes you realise what little use the tie downs are.

Taxiing tailwheel aircraft into other ac, ground vehicles, fuel bowsers.

On final approach on a test with the undercarriage warning horn blaring and managing to ignore it until the reds blues greens check- that made the examiner raise an eyebrow.

On the forgetting to strap in one, I flew with a copilot for 3 hours who strapped in but did not realise the straps were not attached to the airframe.

Reaching down to put the ejector seat pins in after a flight only to realise that were never out.

Turning the fuel off in flight and wondering why the engine stopped.

Refuelling and forgetting to put the caps back on. Its amazing how fast the fuel gets sucked out of the tanks once you take off.

All of these happened to very experienced pilots. No number of hours makes you immune - and even a monkey can fall from a tree.

[Pitts2112]

Solo circuit consolidation during my basic PPL training, fully established runway 31 at Blackpool. Three hundred feet to go, ATC demand "Go Around".

Ooooh! Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. OK, no response to tower yet, but is it full power OR reduce the drag to make the flying easier?

Left the trickle of power, dropped flap lever (PA28) from full 40° to zero in one swift move.

I don't do that anymore.

Me, neither! Worst shouting I ever got from an instructor was when I was very junior in my training and doing circuits and did that, using the same logic. The scene was a summer day, Cessna 150 with 40 degrees of flap, on final to 32 at Marlboro Airport in Massachusetts where the runway ends in the passing street (complete with STOP sign on the perimeter fence, facing the approaching pilot on rollout.

http://tinyurl.com/7yfq5a

Me: told to go around, hmmm...power on or drag off first....drag, me thinks...right, flaps to UP position

Her: sensing all lift disappear..."****!!!"...grabs controls....lots of hands flurrying about

Me: whatthehell'sgoingonwhatdidIjustdo?

Her: 15 minutes of high-powered shouting about imminent death, don't want to die, don't you ever, what were you thinking...that sort of thing.

Left such an impression that to this day I relive that scene every time I go around (quite a lot in the Pitts!).

[Piper.Classique]

Nobody has mentioned the nose wheel chock, yet

can't do that one in a piper cub

Forgetting to pay for the fuel resulted in a bill by post, and an embarrassed re-visit to our neighbouring airfield.

all good fun!

[Romeo India Xray]

OK, a few more that have come back to my failing (becoming senior)memory:

Taxiing a 172 after having flown a 152. Pushed the brake pedals to release the parking brake and then taxied to the hold wondering why the hell it was taking 2000 rpm to taxi.

Yes, done the chock thing, except that it was on the left main of a 172, I could SEE it, indeed had to step over it to get in.

Few weeks ago got box 1 and 2 mixed up because we needed to wait for an additional delayed clearnace on box 3 (737). Turned down the ATIS on box 2 when the clearance came on box 3 - read back the clearance transmitting on box 2 ATIS. (should I really have admitted this?)

Sent the wrong student solo, (probably shouldn't be admitting that one either). 2 students with the same name and at roughly the same stage in their training. Checked the training record of the wrong student in error and then sent him solo after a good checkflight. Probably wouldn't have done it had I looked at the training record! (again, really shouldn't have admitted this)

Really great thread!

RIX

[smo-kin-hole]

I heard a C172 start on a cold Wisconsin day at the FBO and I looked out the window, then lunged for the door. The student was throwing switches and the CFI was picking his nails. I banged on the wingtip, then shook it, but it took literally five minutes for them to understand that they needed to SHUT DOWN NOW!!!!!

I was too fed up to talk to them so I walked up to the nose, pulled up the preheat blanket to where they could see it, dropped it, and walked away.

What do you think a heavy blanket spooled up in a prop would do to a C172? Students need to understand that the signal to shut down NOW means NOW! And that CFI needed to be way more observant.

Our school is long-gone, another 9/11 victim. It was a nice place to work.

[Hireandhire]

I will admit to having failed to put the mags off more than once. Our aircraft has twin toggle switches rather than a key, and the engine is first stopped by lean cut-off, then mags to "off".

What makes it worse is that i pulled it around by the live prop to get it back in it's farmstrip hanger.

The second time I made this mistake, as I leveled the wooden prop to avoid moisture balance issues.......the twin impulse mags clicked, the motor fired and ran in the hanger for 10-15s :eek:

Funnily enough I have remembered every time since. That sort of thing makes an impression, even on slow learners like me.

And look - I've still got all my fingers.

Fly safe !
HnH

[EvilKitty]

After adjusting the seat I gave the obligatory wiggle to check it. Seemed to be ok.

Only to slide to the back of the rails when going to full power :\

Luckily I had my instructor with me... "You have control!" :hmm:

[ExSp33db1rd]

Pan American had Stratocruisers, all white, with "PAWA" ( Pan American World Airways - before the change to PanAm - between two blue lines on the tail. BOAC also had Stratocruisers all white with BOAC between two blue lines on the tail.

Idlewild Airport, New York ( Now Kennedy ) Night departure. BOAC Flight Engineer ( not me ! ) completed pre-flight external check, climbed up to the flight deck, sat at the F/E's station and started filling in the aircraft log-book. Gee, thanks buddy, said the PanAm engineer, coming out to start his checks, you've done my walk-around !!

Self - recently. Druine Turbulent, VW engine, not started for awhile, decided to pull it out and run the engine. VW difficult to start, and that's being polite, but on this occasion went first swing ! Well, running nicely, beautiful calm evening, let's do a circuit. On becoming airborne ASI read 140 kts. Vne is 104 kts. Pitot cover still in place ! Oh well, not stalling, so lower nose a little, just in case, level off at circuit height and set cruise power, set descent power and normal looking glideslope - no problem.

Self - not so recently. Tecnam GOLF aircraft, student rang to say couldn't get radio check, and big mag. drop. Gone home. Went to aero club, suspected radio problem 'cos too close to hangar, so pulled well into field and radio OK as suspected. Wonder why mag. drop, not usual, let's have a look. Didn't use check list which starts with pitot cover and tow bar removed, cos not going flying. Started engine. Tow bar still in place, now have shorter prop ! Knew that turning prop by hand cleared the tow bar, but under power bar is sucked up into the prop. Actually, I wouldn't have tried it, but had totally forgotten the bar was still attached, hadn't taken it off because I hadn't intended to start the engine, like I hadn't intended to fly the Turb.

Always - start at the begining, never take a short cut - or assume that all is well. Check. If the checklist is interrupted always start again at the beginning, or Mr. Murphy will ensure that you start one item below where you stopped - which might be you miss the fuel selector !

[triton140]

Mr. Murphy will ensure that you start one item below where you stopped

Yep - done that ...

Still a student, but sometimes I find it frustrating when the instructor interrupts my checklist, and that's when I skip things - so I've taken to restarting the checklist a few items above where I think I got to, or even right at the start.

[AMEandPPL]

Aren't there some wonderful stories emerging here ? ! !

And it's educational, too . . . . . . .
Knew that turning prop by hand cleared the tow bar, but under power bar is sucked up into the prop
until reading this, I don't think I'd have realised that would happen !

Thanks ! :ok:

[JEM60]

Did the live magnetos thing. On when they should have been off.Flat battery. Man swinging prop for me, just sucking in, of course it started up. Fortunately he was treating me like an idiot, and was standing back when he released the prop. Came round the door, gave me a polite telling off.I flew, landed, and sought him out. He was in the middle of a large group of people on the ramp [he was someone quite famous in the flying world].I swallowed my pride [what was left] walked into the middle of the group, and apologised to him. As I walked away, several people asked him what that was all about. I heard his reply 'oh, nothing. He just learnt something that he won't do again'.He could have made me appear a fool to so many people, but chose not to. Nicest person I ever met, flying wise. Happy New Year.

[ShyTorque]

Years ago a then colleague of mine signed for his RAF Puma helicopter and took off on task. A short while later he was back, with all his kit, the aircraft was u/s.

He grumpily gave the groundcrew some grief and signed for another helicopter. Then he walked back out to the same aircraft and took off in it again!

[Fujiflyer]

ShyTorque, who was it who stuck his fingers up at a ground controller at a northern airfield (Yorkshire?) - I think he was trying to say that his second engine still needed to be watched (in case of startup problems, hence the need to observe it). Apparently the said person got into some trouble when he landed later, in the south of the UK,

Best Regards

Rich

[IFMU]

When I screw up, I tend to confess to my flying buddies. Good for the soul and all that. Told one of my hangar-mates about forgetting the spoilers and seatbelt. My hangar-mate is at least 10 times the pilot I will ever be. But he had a topper for my seatbelt senior moment. He has owned a couple of single place Pitts, one he built as a kid and one he bought later. Often when he was flying somewhere, rather than thrashing it around, he liked to have a smoke. Said there was a good enough bubble of still air even with the open cockpit. But to get his cig and lighter out, he had to undo his harness and chute. One time after a smoke he hit a big bump and had to catch himself on the way out of the airplane, chute unfastened too. Turns out he had completely forgotten to strap back in. Said he had never gotten buckled back up so fast after he had nearly ejected.

-- IFMU

[ex jump pilot]

Will admit to not putting the oil filler cap back on after topping up the oil. Can't recall what caused the interuption in the process. I suspect I left the cap (and its dip stick) out of site.
Uneventful flight of an hour until was just short of destination when spotted fluctuating oil pressure.
Told "ATC" what I was experiencing and asked for immediate landing as a glide approach. Granted.
On the ground, most of the oil was sticking to the side of the aircraft.

The sun shines on the fortunate. Was able to borrow a replacement oil cap and, after a refill, flew home again. Found the bits of the old filler cap in the grass (perhaps it was the hanging about of the man mowing the grass that rushed me?). Drove the borrowed filler cap back straight away to the distant airport and ordered a new cap on the Monday which arrived later in the week.

Other members of the group have since admitted to similar "moments"...
Roger

[ShyTorque]

ShyTorque, who was it who stuck his fingers up at a ground controller at a northern airfield (Yorkshire?) - I think he was trying to say that his second engine still needed to be watched (in case of startup problems, hence the need to observe it). Apparently the said person got into some trouble when he landed later, in the south of the UK,


Now that might have been me! Can't recall where but it certainly happened to me once. :)

[ChampChump]

Over the years and in no particular order:

taking off with carb heat

leaving fuel caps off after refuelling...and flying after...

doing up the harness sometime after take off

leaving the pitot cover on

leaving the rudder lock on

not checking the primer locked

spare seat belt flapping outside

taking off with full back trim

getting strapped in and started before realising the headset is in the car





and probably several/many more but I'm getting older and can't remember...

None of the above caused more than a :ugh: moment, except the fuel caps, which was a grovelling job as it wasn't my aeroplane. The confessional revealed that the multi-thousand hours career instructors have as many screw-ups and just because we've admitted a few, it doesn't mean we won't make all the rest and then some.

So despite the checklists and good intentions, we are but the stuff of Human Factors.

Happy flying year to all.

[ExSp33db1rd]

until reading this, I don't think I'd have realised that would happen !

Thanks ! http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


'twas a Christmas Day, too, no flying for the club for a few days - wasn 't popular ! Still ... if even instructors can make mistakes !! made a few examine their own attitude, so all wasn't lost.

Make every mistake a learning experience, why do you think we have check lists ? The Wright Brothers didn't have one, but every item on todays' check lists are the result of someone cocking it up. The lists are still growing !

[rateone]

Let me see now.

- Done the mag switch thing

- Tried to taxi with chocks still in place - lots of cheers from onlookers

- Wondered why the engine wouldn't start and finding I hadn't turned on the fuel

- Forgotten to close the oil inspection hatch on a 172 and not noticed until the prop wash lifted it open

- Taxied to hold and realised I had left the map in the club house. Embarrassing call to ATC and a quick about turn

- Had clamshell door open accelerating through 50kts on take-off. Not closed and locked.....

Last but not least....pulled the mixture lever to ICO when supposed to be applying carb heat. Quickly corrected by pushing said lever through the panel when the engine started to cough. Concentrates the mind when cleared VFR not above 1000' offshore!

Ho Hum

[BackPacker]

Turned the fuel selector in a DR400-160 to "off" when it should have been going to "center". Luckily the passenger (a pilot too) sitting next to me caught it and corrected immediately. We were at 1000 feet at that time, and that would probably not have been sufficient to recover.

In my defense, in the DR400-160 (with the saddle tanks) the fuel selector points *backwards* when selecting "center" and *forwards* when selecting "off". AFAIC, a gross violation of the "forward or upwards is good/go" principle.

Forgot to turn the mags off when doing a quick passenger change. No excuse there.

Forgot to turn the transponder on when entering the runway - multiple times. Forgot to turn off the carb heat after landing - multiple times. Same for landing lights & transponder. Have now altered my routine for entering and leaving the runway.

Changing my navigation plan laterally in-flight (due to intense glider activity at a certain field) but kept executing the plan vertically, thus busting class C. Just a corner, no harm done except to my ego.

[Pace]

Made an approach in a Seneca twin in very poor vis and low cloud.

No instrument approach so low cloud break to airfield I knew well.

Came out of cloud with gear down and three greens. Caught a glimse of the runway at MY minima which is lower than am prepared to admit :) so fixed my eyes out of the cockpit trying to keep the numbers in sight.

Went back into cloud and decided to go around. Told the pilot in the right seat but then came out of the cloud with the numbers visible again.

Continued approach to land flared just as I glanced down and saw NO GREENS.

Full power, pitched up waiting for the props to strike. Aircraft climbed away with no ground contact. phew!!!

My elderly co pilot (73) had reached over and lifted the gear when I said going around and forgot to tell me :) I had my eyes firmly fixed on the numbers in the gloom. Closest I have ever had to a wheel up landing as the props must have been a couple of feet off the runway. Dont know if it was his senior moment at 73 or my mid life moment :) at missing it.

Pace

[AMEandPPL]

Wow ! That last one's a real corker !

Actually, not so much to do with "senior moment" in one person, but more to do with co-operation and communication between two ! More or less a perfect definition of CRM ! !

[Pace]

Actually, not so much to do with "senior moment" in one person, but more to do with co-operation and communication between two ! More or less a perfect definition of CRM ! !

Ame and PPL

He is 73 :) you cant get a lot more senior than that! Now I am sure there will be a spate of 90 year olds posting :)

But at least I noticed it with about 1/10th of a second to spare :) and in CRM I am supposed to call for gear first :) This was a single pilot plane just habit on his part and trying to be helpful and then forgetting it.

And then of course there was the emergency descent from FL170 in a jet after a slot departure and an overweight late passenger blocking the door as I secured it.

Chuck in a rushed departure, Failed door insecure light and nothing until a loud hiss and the 10000 foot cabin pressure warning light coming on. Oh well all makes life more exciting :)


Pace

[AMEandPPL]

Strikes me there is a great idea here for another thread which could be really interesting.

This was a single pilot plane. Just habit on his part, and trying to be helpful, and then forgetting it

I can understand that very well; if I were a passenger in a light plane I'd be keen to help too ! But we have just read the PERFECT reason why on any given flight one should be a pilot, or a passenger, but not both !

Q. Multi-crew flights need CRM; single crew flights need "no-touch" passengers ? Discuss.
(either this thread, or maybe someone will start a new one ! )

[GiveMeABreak]

A bit late to this thread but I'm somewhat surprised at the lack of comments regarding checklists. I thought it was just me that didn't use them but I'm obviously in good company here !!

wishing you all safe flying.....

[Pace]

AME ad PPL

In the Private pilot forum there is probably very little CRM as the aircraft are not two crew operations . As you stated it should be one or the other single pilot only or CRM.

The danger is a mix of the two which occurred in my situation.

Having said that mix of the two is more likely to occur in private light aircraft where two friends fly together and both want to take part in the flight.

Because they are not following a structured division of duties or often not confirming an action with each other then there must there must be a higher risk of something being missed.

Nowadays especially with the economic climate there are more pilots who cost share and hence flight share.

Maybe there should be training or lectures given in the possible perils of doing so and recommendations for CRM specific to PPLs and private light GA.

Pace

[Pace]

A bit late to this thread but I'm somewhat surprised at the lack of comments regarding checklists. I thought it was just me that didn't use them but I'm obviously in good company here !!

wishing you all safe flying.....

In a silly way mine is an example of not using check lists as all the checks were complete at that stage.

For me you never really now an aircraft until you can fly it without checklists.

This is NOT an arguement for not using checklists but a caution that there are times when for one reason or another you cannot use a checklist and knowing them by heart is a safety backup to using them.

Of course the right way is to know them by heart and use them.

Pace

[ExSp33db1rd]

Backpacker - Commercial Commuter company here, some years ago, had 3 aeroplanes, same type, but different vintage. 2 had fuel selectors that went Left - Right - Off, and 1 had a selector that went Left - Off - Right.

All day pilots flew the 2 similar a/c, but at the end of a long day were switched to the dissimilar one. Guess what ?

Coroner said pilots are stupid - or words to that effect - can they not read ?

How often do you drive your wifes' car, and at the first corner start the windscreen wipers ? Are you stupid, can't you read ? How often do you bother to read the label on your own car wiper switch before touching it? You KNOW it's the wiper switch - but one day..... it's a different car.
QED.:ok:

Learning to fly the 707, a group of us were asked by the training captain what the first action was in the event of an engine fire ? All the smart-asses came up with their idea of the right answer. All wrong. Do nothing, he said, sit on your hands and THINK.

Many a twin has crashed after an engine failure because the pilot has stopped the perfectly good engine !

The only time to react with alacrity is in a situation described by Pace, a wheels up landing is never pretty ! Well done that man.

A Comet 4 once landed wheels up, very smooth landing, crew only realised ( so the saying goes ) when they needed a lot of power to turn off the runway !!

Murphy is always with us.

[Whirlybird]

I'm sure I've had some senior moments....but I can't quite remember. :):):)

[trident3A]

Climbing out with instructor observing, rate of climb decreasing, plane stops climbing. It took us some time to notice the throttle friction hadn't been tightened and the engine revs were gradually dropping. Duh.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

If the checklist is interrupted always start again at the beginning, or Mr. Murphy will ensure that you start one item below where you stopped - which might be you miss the fuel selector !
Done that, didn't do the whole check list "just to taxi to the fuel pumps", and then skipped "the bits I'd already done" when starting up again.

But whoever wrote the club check list had thought of that one ... there was FUEL BOTH for a third time in the just-before-take-off checks, at which point I spotted it.

[GroundBound]

Too many to list :uhoh:

One sticks in my mind though - after a practice forced landing I was given traffic information on crossing aircraft, so kept a good lookout. Got distracted from checks. Returned to base couldn't understand why the performance and balance was so bad - but nothing revealed itself on the engine settings or carb front. I found the reason when I tried putting the flaps down - no need was there!

[Phororhacos]

Returning to Shoreham, I was told to join overhead for 02, readback correctly then joined overhead for 20. :uhoh: (It was much easier when it was 03 and 21). I only noticed when I called crosswind and the kind controller kindly pointed out that if I turned right and right again I'd be nicely lined up on final for the correct runway.

[dany4kin]

During preflight checks on one aircraft, my instructor and I had to change aircraft last minute, I can't remember why. I did the shutdown checks and we jumped out, only to find a flat battery on the new aircraft so we piled back into the original one. I was feeling a little pressured by the instructor to get us going and he 'helped' by speeding up the departure checks.

The engine ran for maybe 2 minutes before I realised I had turned off the fuel without turning it back on. When I restart my PPL training I'm going to follow my checklist and try not to allow myself to feel as pressured, or at least recognise it and try to compensate if I am.

On my second ever set of solo circuits at Biggin, trundling down towards 21 a couple of pheasants were on the taxiway. They duly moved off as I approached, and I went over the upcoming circuits in my head. Clear takeoff, full power, 40...... 50 knots....... 2 pheasants on the centerline!

I luckily had airspeed enough to clear them without giving them a haircut although chastised myself for not twigging that they were headed for the runway.

My third (so far!) and most stupid was during PFL's with my (poor!) instructor. During my 'touch' drills I ACTUALLY changed tanks, without the fuel pump, engine idling, at less than 1000ft.... said instructor was pretty gracious about it.... even when the engine coughed a little in the climb out....

[ExSp33db1rd]

Our club a/c - an LSA / Microlight - has two fuel selectors on the centre console, both must face forward for ON ( everything forward for speed ! ) and be turned 90 deg across the console for off.

The left tank sucks faster than the right, so we usually turn the left one off for periods, partly to balance fuel left to right, but also to ensure that there is fuel in the left tank for the overshoot - nobody has had the courage to let the left tank run empty, to prove that the engine won't suck air momentarily ( I know, I know, but Murphy is always hiding just behind the hedge looking for a laugh )

Another club, same type, taught a student to do just the same, so downwind he knew he had to switch back to both tanks ON, and that he had to 'match' the fuel selectors , so he did - across the console. Murphy won. We now have 2 very large arrows painted on the console - facing forward ! :ok:

[ChampChump]

With or without a checklist, the senior moments haunt all but the saintliest of us.

There is no absolutely, copper-bottomed, wire-locked, foolproof way to check the checks, or check the checks for the checks (etc), but one tip I was given seems to help: it's a touch drill. The tactile approach certainly helps prevent some of the 'oh I did that already' screw-ups.

If you're one of the few who haven't yet missed something blindingly obvious, we in the confessional await your input. And isn't confession so good for the soul?

Fly soon, fly lots.

[Cat.S]

Done most of my flying on a PA 38, but had recently converted to a PA 28. As we crossed the coast, reached out for carb heat without looking, as distracted by ATC traffic message, pulled lever that hand was on and wondered why the sudden silence. It's not even as if carb heat and mixture levers feel the same!! Doh.

[Sensible]

Started taxi with one wing tie down still attached and aircraft started to turn in spite of operating full oposite rudder! DOH

Distracted on base after spotting another aircraft conflicting on long final without communicating (later found out that the other pilot didn't have a working radio so didn't want to join the circuit) put flaps away and flew an orbit to allow it to land (it was a very quiet uncontrolled airfield), joined final again forgetting to put the flaps down at all and wondering why I was sinking fast. In hindsight, I should have aborted the landing and flown a full circuit again.

Flying a revalidation check ride with an instructor in a PA28, parking the aircraft and then pulling up the flap lever - I must have thought that it was the handbrake in the car! and yes, he did notice!

[BackPacker]

Flying a revalidation check ride with an instructor in a PA28, parking the aircraft and then pulling up the flap lever - I must have thought that it was the handbrake in the car! and yes, he did notice!

Not unusual in a Robin - the flaps are not strong enough to support the weight of a person when up, so you would normally put them down when parking the aircraft.

There's your excuse for next time...:)

[Final 3 Greens]

Best one for me was checking out in a rented Arrer in California, the day after arriving in the evening.

I fought the damn thing all the way down final, cursing the ineffective controls and making a good touchdown with a very short roll out.

The FI complimented me on a very fine demonstration of a short field landing.

Some time later, I realised that the Arrer had a MPH speedo and I was using knots :mad:

[LowNSlow]

Taking of with 40 degrees of flap in a 150. Went up like a lift but didn't go forwards very fast! This was because I'd been distracted by a machine gun like noise when I was doing my pre-flight which was caused by my seatbelt buckle banging on the fuselage in the prop wash.........

Taking off the other day and wondering why my steed was taking longer than normal to levitate. No need to retract the flaps on the climbout then.......

Filling up my Piper Cub wing tank and forgetting to close the valve to the wingtank. Found out just how loud Whirlybird could scream when the (already full) front tank overflowed all over her feet! Sorry Whirls!

Nearly took off with the pitot tube cover in place after deciding to go flying after test running the engine. Thanks Mike!

[Pegpilot]

Or then there's the time I took off in a glider on an intended cross country and within minutes felt a growing damp patch where the sun don't shine. Looking down, I realised I had taken off sitting on the nozzle of my "Camelbak" water carrier, which had then duly dispensed a litre and a half of water into the seat pan in two minutes flat. On landing (rather more quicky than I had intended), I was then asked to fly a rather fetching young lady visitor, and found myself having to explain that the very large damp patch on my trousers was not caused by incontinence !

[tmmorris]

I've done several of the above including:

flying most of the way to France in a Robin with takeoff flaps;

taking off on 08 at Old Sarum in a C152 with carb heat on (wondering why the hell we weren't reaching Vr in any kind of a hurry);

taking off in a PA28 with one fuel cap detached and sitting on the wing - it fell off during takeoff and was retrieved somewhat dented by a rather sarcastic ATC...

changing tanks in mid-flight in the same PA28 and turning the fuel selector to 'off' (one of those moments when time slowed down... I realised immediately what I'd done but still had time to plan my mayday call!)

Tim

[Oldpilot55]

My mate managed to take off on one set of mags. With two fatties onboard it was a struggle!

[Penny Washers]

Here's one you can all try!

I put the headsets (already plugged in) on the back seat while strapping in and then by mistake picked up the passenger's one and put it on. Air Traffic said they could only hear the carrier signal on transmit, and then me "very faintly" when I shouted!

One's first thought is that the radio is on the blink, then that the jack plugs are not fully home, and then finally that - erm - oh dear! A smug response from Air Traffic: "We thought that might be it!"

But surely I cannot be the first?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

But surely I cannot be the first?
I've had "station calling xxx, carrier wave only". Don't recall seeing that in CAP413, but I worked out what it meant.

[King Bladud]

1966, as a brand-new co-pilot I was in the right hand seat of a Bristol Britannia -my first flight with passengers on board. It was 2.00 am in the morning and we were crossing the Alps northwest bound on a glorious moonlit night. The very experienced captain said "I'm just going to close my eyes for 5 minutes, stay alert and wake me if there's a problem" (this was a period when we flew 120 hours per month and everyone was tired) I nodded nervously and sat slightly taller in my seat as I assumed my new role as temporary commander. After a few minutes the captain was fast asleep. I turned to give a reassuring worldly smile to the flight engineer: his head was already on his desk, gone to the world!
Slightly concerned by the turn of events I concentrated on the task, but all was well and I slowly relaxed and then became curious about the small black lever down on the side of the centre consol. "I should know what that does I thought", and leaning down gave it a tweak. The ensuing silence was deafening as all four throttles fell back to their stops and the big Proteus engines ran down to idle. The silence didn't last, as captain and f/e woke with a start and pointed what a silly chap I was to relax all of the throttle friction in one go.

I once had some 'business' cards printed as follows:

'Happily, advancing age does not appear to be a noticeable factor in pilot related incidents. Presumably because the detrimental effects of aging on the cognitive process are mitigated by the beneficial effects on judgement that increased operational experience affords.......' So there!

[IFMU]

Is it a sign of advancing memory when you need reminders of your senior moments?

flying most of the way to France in a Robin with takeoff flaps;

My flap screwups were not really senior moments. More like junior ones, I was in my 20's and still getting used to the darn things. I learned to fly in a PA12 without flaps (and a lot of other stuff people seem to think vital).

After I had 100+ tailwheel hours in the flapless PA12, I got checked out in the C152. One x-c flight to Portland, Maine I was not making much airspeed. I had been stuck with the doggiest C152 the school had, so I put it down to the crappy airplane. About 15 miles out of Portland, during my traffic scan I happened to notice the flaps were down about 5 degrees. The C152 has a flap position lever, so the flaps go to the position indicated by the lever. I had the flaps down for preflight. After takeoff I slapped the lever all the way up, except it bound a little bit and didn't get all the way to the top. When I carefully pushed it up the rest of the way, I picked up 10 or 15 kts. I felt kind of dumb.

My other flap issue was my single most humiliating experience as a pilot. No wonder I forgot it until tmmorris reminded me. So here I am, a young 20-something going for a little flight in the C152. I'm preflighting the airplane, some little hottie is preflighting the 152 next to mine. All is well in the world. Now I'm in the airplane, about to start it up, and I hear banging on the wing. Look up, said hottie is asking to come over. Turns out something was wrong with the other 152, she needed to go to Goodspeed airport about 20 miles away, wanted to know if I was a student or rated and would I be willing to drop her off there. Life is good.

Now, before I get to the humiliating part, a little background about my primary training. I was taught tight patterns, power off approaches, steep enough that losing the engine in the pattern is never an issue. I'm not trying to launch this thread into that debate, but right or wrong that is how I was taught and how I was flying.

We get to Goodspeed, not an overly long runway, and I set up the first approach. But for some reason I've completely blown it, way too high, and I go around. I do the same thing a second time. The third one she talks me through it, going way further out on downwind, shallower descent than I'm comfortable with, and we land ok. She was fairly laughing at me, as I remember. Or maybe I'm remembering the nighmares. So on the flight back, I'm questioning my flying ability. How could I be so screwed up? I fly steep turns, stalls, it feels like I'm right on though I haven't been flying enough lately. Go back home, where I know the pattern and ground references extremely well having learned there, and my first approach I'm way too high. This can't be happening. Finally I figure it out. That stupid binding flap lever stopped at about 22 degrees of flap, and losing the last 8 degrees makes a huge difference in the drag and descent angle. I get the flaps all the way in and all of a sudden it's like I know how to fly again. I never tried to search her out to explain the flap issue, I know that anything I said would make me seem like more of a loser than I already appeared!

-- IFMU

[ShyTorque]

Was once flying as leader of a four ship close formation. Although the Bulldog wasn't exceptionally well blessed in the thrust department, it was a good aircraft for formation flying.

We used to take off as two pairs with 10 second spacing and would join up into a four asap. This time the CFI was number four. As we climbed steadily out, he was nowhere to be seen. After a few seconds he called, in a grumpy voice "Buster, BUSTER! :mad:"

(Buster meant "Back on the power, I can't keep up").

I slowed down. He still took a long time to join up. He made some further comment about climb power settings. I looked back at him and said just one word. "Flaps"! At the same time someone else in the formation transmitted the same word.

He said nothing more but I watched his face: :eek: :\ :ooh: :O

:E

[stillin1]

Stuff happens!
If you can be honest with youself to find out / try to find a reason:confused: then you are IMHO just another pilot who has made a mistake. The secret now is to try to find a way to stop repeating it :D

[muffin]

I once flew a C177 from Shoreham to the Isle of Wight and back with the fuel drain tap open - we wondered where the smell of petrol was coming from.

[x34gunner]

I know a chap that went up to around 30,000' in an Astir glider and wondered why the aircraft felt different.....In his rush to get airborne he forgot his parachute!!:hmm:

[VP959]

Once taxied out, doing pre-take offs from the flip cards as we went. Got interrupted at least twice by the ground controller, but thought that the three or four card list had been completed.

Took off, climbed out, and after ten minutes or so started to feel a bit odd. Turned around to my colleague in the other seat and said "do you feel OK? My ears are giving me hell today".

Colleague confirmed that he felt a bit iffy too, whereupon I looked down and spotted that the cabin alt was at 20,000ft and still climbing.

The dump valve was open...............

Sad part was that even after going on oxygen and closing the dump valve the old crate wouldn't re-pressurise, so we had to descend to around 6000ft and start the climb again.

Moral of this story Don't let ANYONE interrupt your checks!

VP

[straightfeed]

Interesting that check lists appear in many posts.

Ive borrowed Club check lists, POH checklists, some old laminated list hanging around in the cockpit type list but they all had the same thing in common. They didnt fit the aeroplane I was flying very well!

Most called for the pilot to move around in a blur looking for some item or other wherever it may be located in that particular cockpit. Patterns are often non existent. You can end up thinking "well that's the check list done but what did I actually check?"

I sit for ages in the cockpit on the ground rearranging that tatty bit of card so that checking has some logic to it, ie a flow pattern or grouped as subsystems.
Finally, a simple standard check from memory that fits all aircraft and backs up a checklist is used just prior to take off, after take off and prior to landing.
This has saved me a few times.

On the subject of CRM in single pilot light aircraft not being applicable. Thats just where CRM does come in.It is after all "resource management".
We all ask the non pilot pax to keep a lookout but how many brief a qualified pilot to help out? I always brief instructors of what I expect of them!

Oh, and yes Ive done a few senior moments but hopefully its just old age and probably lack of skill that lets me down now.

New on the 747 under supervision, two parked nose in. Did my external walkround. Sat down and started checks. Reg on panel didnt quite match the reg on the nosewheel door I'd just seen outside. Bugger another walkround in front of supervisor. Laughs all round.
Stay safe
SFD

[olderndirt]

Had just purchased a Piper Pacer and was taking it to my home field. One of the last things the previous owner mentioned was 'don't takeoff on the right tank' and placarded on the panel was a similar statement. Piper, in the interest of saving a buck, hadn't plumbed a fuel line on the back of the tank so, when the wing reached a certain angle of attack, all the gas ran to the back and you got the big mag drop. Without a pause, I blythely opened the throttle, popped off and RRRrrrrrrrrr..... - headed towards quiet. Fortunately, my hand instinctively reached for the tank selector switch and order was restored. Needless to say, that tank got another fuel line and became my cruising tank from then on.

[gordon field]

Good thread as long as we all read, mark, learn and inwardly something or other.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I was transmitting carrier wave only. Turns out I'd plugged into the P2 socket rather than P1...
Everyone's done that haven't they?

In my case it was at an ATC airport so I didn't start moving until I'd sorted it out, as I couldn't get taxi clearance.

[RatherBeFlying]

On my solo XC (and not at all senior) took off from second airport and realised on climbout that I had never even looked at checklist.

More recenty pulled Citabria out of hangar on cold day; so, left engine blanket on while fuelling and doing preflight in deliberate manner. Got in, strapped up, pulled out checklist, started engine, checked oil pressure, right mag and alternator on, looked forward to taxi and found engine blanket still on:mad:

Mixture very quickly off.

First flight in third type of single seat glider. Everything worked normally, except sent up with handheld radio. Heard garbled message while slowly sinking but unable to establish comms. Headed back to field and found I had set myself up for landing on reciprocal runway I had took off from 12 minutes ago and not enough altitude to change my mind:{

So had to accept the ignominy of continuing as planned:uhoh: Got a big lecture, but better a good approach into a poorly selected field than a poor approach into one that suddenly looks better. There's a number of fatal accidents to back that one up.