what is classed as "too close" mid air incidents?

[liam548]

doing circuits the other day I felt to come quite close to another aircraft also in circuits. There is a lot of space up there but obviously in the circuit everyone is quite close.

What is classed as an air prox though is there a definition?

[b.a. Baracus]

I believe an airprox is a situation where it is the opinion of either a pilot or a controller that the distance, position and speed between aircraft is such that a significant threat of collision exists or the safety of the aircraft was, or had potential to be compromised.

The airprox is given a risk rating, from my understanding there are two risk categories. Then it is up to the UK Airprox Board to investigate.

In other words..... LOOK OUT, LOOK OUT, LOOK OUT.

[SNS3Guppy]

Liam,

I can't comment on UK legalities, but the general rule to go by here is that if you're not comfortable, you're too close. In fact, if either party isn't comfortable, then it's too close.

[jamestkirk]

I was in the circuit once where someone joined without telling ATC. I was (my student was) turning from downwind to left base.

As I was telling him to always check the wing after you turn to see if there if anyone was there (C152) there was another aircraft heading straight for us. The poor student was rather quiet while i took cintrol and man handled the Cesnna about.

The aircraft was so close I could see that the two occupants where wearing davis clark headsets. Is that too close?

Oh, happy days.

[liam548]

I was in the circuit once where someone joined without telling ATC. I was (my student was) turning from downwind to left base.

As I was telling him to always check the wing after you turn to see if there if anyone was there (C152) there was another aircraft heading straight for us. The poor student was rather quiet while i took cintrol and man handled the Cesnna about.

The aircraft was so close I could see that the two occupants where wearing davis clark headsets. Is that too close?

Oh, happy days.

that is scary. Just a touch in mid air will bring them both down..

did you speak to the other pilots about it?

[Pace]

Not sure about the word comfortable as that implies that you are aware of the other aircraft.

It is when you are not aware of each other or the direction you are both going that a collision risk is greater.

The worst I ever had was ten years ago.

I was right seat in a Cessna 150 with a friend flying and we were routing around London at 2400 feet.

I had my head down writing on a kneepad. I looked up to see a Cessna 182 go clean over the top of us approaching from head on.

He passed within 6 to 10 feet over the top. So Close I could see the grooves on his tyres.

Watching him disappear through the back window of the 150 He did not flinch off his track so was probably on auto and totally unaware of the event.

He was probably very comfortable I was comfortable until the split second I saw him. The PIC was comfortable as he was watching two other aircraft 90 degrees off our left side and only saw the aircraft as the shadow passed over us.

Pace

[172driver]

If you can see the white in the other pilot's eyes :E

(spoken in a deep, gravelly voice.....)

[TheGorrilla]

I normally go by the colour and smell of my trousers.

[eharding]

I normally go by the colour and smell of my trousers.


By that measure, you must have an average of one airprox an evening...unless you're telling us those are curry stains.

[Human Factor]

I have to say, if I could smell his trousers I'd consider it an Airprox. :ooh:

[eharding]

I have to say, if I could smell his trousers I'd consider it an Airprox.


All it would take is a brisk South-Easterly breeze, in the general direction of Heathrow from Gatwick -assuming he's been on the Lamb Vindaloo again.

[Human Factor]

Luckily, I lost most of my sense of smell in my longhaul days.:ok:

[rusty sparrow]

probably is a good enough indication that it was too close

[eharding]

Luckily, I lost most of my sense of smell in my longhaul days.


I'm familiar with your record HF, and you have my sympathy....the one thing worse than being condemned to flying rubber dog sh!t out of Hong Kong, is to find out it isn't rubber.

[AMEandPPL]

The airprox is given a risk rating, from my understanding there are two risk categories

Actually, there are four possible categories, A B C or D.

Look here :
Causal Factors & Risk Ratings | UK Airprox Board (http://www.airproxboard.org.uk/default.aspx?catid=423&pagetype=90&pageid=5637)

I was asked to complete an Airprox report form last year, though we never ever saw the "other" aircraft which reported being closer than he was happy about to us - believe it or not, an Easyjet A319 ! Some discrepancies were not resolvable, but the risk assessment was "C" at the end of the process, thank goodness !
:ok:

[TheGorrilla]

eHarding and Human Factor...

I bet you're glad i've never had an airprox in the yak then! On the other hand that could seal up the air leak quite nicely!! :\:}:}

[SNS3Guppy]

the one thing worse than being condemned to flying rubber dog sh!t out of Hong Kong, is to find out it isn't rubber.


For the record, it's not a condemnation, it's an opportunity, and there's a pretty good living to be made flying the stuff out of HKG.

We just usually don't do it in close proximity to other aircraft.

As far as what's too close...if you can't see the other aircraft, then it's really a non-issue. You can't really worry regarding something about which you didn't even know.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Too close ? If I have to take evasive action and the other guy doesn't know I'm there - or only realises it when he sees me evading him. If we know we are both around why get close, unless you have both agreed to formate.

[jamestkirk]

Yes I did.

He tried to imply that i was in the wrong place in the circuit. That was coming from someone who never had been into the airport before and made no radio calls in the ATZ. And seeing as I was an FI there for two years, I put a swift stop to his ridiculous face saving comments. And offered a trip to the tower to confirm his observations.

He declined that invitation and apologised without reservation.

[Airbus Girl]

I believe the definition of airprox and category is to do with the risk of collision - I had one at work, ATC had screwed up, and if we had carried on on our track/ height we would have hit within seconds, however it was still categorised in one of the lower categories - we both had TCAS and also both spotted the other, although we were on different ATC frequencies at the time! So that didn't really help.... we did have to take avoiding action, an immediate 90 degree turn and also change of altitude. I didn't think they got much closer than that - but according to the Airprox board I guess they do....

[AMEandPPL]

Just a touch in mid air will bring them both down

To quote from that well-known musical : "It ain't necessarily so" ! !

One of my regular visitors, who is now a corporate jet captain, was one of four VERY lucky people who actually survived a mid-air collision in his earlier days while he was instructing !

The absolutely classic situation of the low-winged PA28 above the high-winged C172, and each in the other's blind area, closing rapidly on finals !

Both aircraft sustained considerable damage, but, by some true miracle, both were able to be landed with no harm to the occupants.

Now then, that was REALLY coming too close ! !

[IFMU]

My too-closest moment: flying some formation with a buddy, for the sake of air to air photos. We finished, knocked off to a less work intensive distance apart, and an airplane flew between us at our altitude going the other way. That was too close. I often wonder if he saw either of us. Probably better if he saw none of us rather than one of us.

-- IFMU

[eharding]

My too-closest moment: flying some formation with a buddy, for the sake of air to air photos. We finished, knocked off to a less work intensive distance apart, and an airplane flew between us at our altitude going the other way. That was too close. I often wonder if he saw either of us. Probably better if he saw none of us rather than one of us.


Somewhere on either the Military or Rotorheads forum there is a tale of two helicopters in formation (Norway I think) - a twin goes straght over the top of them, on a reciprocal heading; some seconds later, a dayglo orange torpedo-shaped thing passes directly beneath them, on the same heading - and they realise the twin was a target tug, and the cable from the twin to the target has been running unseen through the gap between the helicopters.

[strake]

The one and only in twenty five years for me was in '84 whilst routing out of Le Touq. Two minutes after turning left at the Cap.."Vvvvaaaarrr" right over the top. That was the sound and that's how long it lasted. Didn't see it coming, radios or chart I suppose.
I was frozen to the column for 5 minutes after and even now I get the thousand yard stare when thinking about it.

[jamestkirk]

Even with the best will in the world you'll always get crept up on by someone.

[Romeo India Xray]

PA28 overhead my PA28 at 90 degrees to my track, right to left. He had been in the blind spot caused by the wider door strut, so even though I employ judicious neck cranking in my lookout he was just in that single spot. It was an overcast just above my cruising level so even had the door post not been there, it is unlikely I would have seen his dull outline against the dull background. Saw him only as his fuselage and wing filled up my windscreen. We seemed to be separated by about 10' vertically. Didnt try to maneuver - there simply was not enough time. Don't think he saw me.

After this I started cranking my head around the door post to check that blind spot.

RIX

P.s. Try asking a glider pilot how close is too close. In a thermal they can easily be less than half a wingspan apart. :rolleyes:

[astir 8]

Half a wingspan in a thermal is way too little. Get set up diagonally opposite for 'appiness.

And to quote an old saying - it's the one you don't see that gets you.

[Romeo India Xray]

Half a wingspan in a thermal is way too little. Get set up diagonally opposite for 'appiness.

Exactly what I was getting at! Obviously not 1/2 wingspan nose to tail going round at an ever tightening 10-20 rpm, even I am not THAT mad .... yet .... :}

I have been known to leave a thermal when it starts to get THAT close. I would rather be 200' lower but AC intact than testing my parachute. Ah, them were the days!

RIX

[possel]

I've known a few:

A Nipper who barged through the circuit and went about 100 ft above me (solo student) on finals at 400ft - it was as though he didn't know the popular airfield was there!

An instructor who let his student fly diagonally across the circuit at 800 ft as I was turning cross wind after take-off - I passed about 100ft above him.

Someone told to hold by ATC outside the ATZ who then came back towards us (also told to hold at same place) at same height - that was nearer 30ft as I bunted.

I saw the above in enough time, but there was an idiot this year in a Shadow who I only saw later. He caught up with me (in a Super Cub) on finals, and then called when underneath me!! I spoke to him after and still don't know how I didn't punch him. He said "I didn't think you were landing as your flaps were up" - "A Super Cub 95 doesn't have flaps!"