costs and options

[wanttoflyido]

Hello,


I am brand new to the forum and i would like to learn how to fly - havent taken a lesson yet but i have my car up for sale to start to fund the lessons.

I have a few general questions that i hope someone can help me with

1 - how much does it cost to get a basic license?

2- i will ultimately want to fly abroad (europe) do i need a different license? if so again what is the cost in training exams etc

3 - having a license without something to fly is not much use, so how do you people on here fly, do you rent planes? if so what is the costs per day / hour? i.e. if you wanted to go for a weekend somewhere in europe - examples of cheap ownership would be most gratefully accepted.

As you can tell at this moment in time i know nothing about nothing, the bottom line is i want to be able to a small plane to europe

I would be particularly interested in hearing from people that are just starting or have just started also - especially if based in edinburgh.

thanks

[PompeyPaul]

Welcome to the forum! Learning to fly is an excellent feeling. The warm glow of looking at your pilot's license never really fades. Taxi'ing onto the runway, with permission to depart, pushing the throttle forward to take off, no feeling really quite like it. To answer your questions

1. Cost of a basic license

Standard JAR-PPL seem to vary around the country. Approx £6500 up north, to around £8k upwards maybe maxing at around £12k down south and around London. All depending on how much training you need. People learn at different rates. That's not to say some people got bargains cheaper, and you can go to the USA and train cheaper but with the pound weakening it's not quite the bargain basement it was. You also need difference training when you get back.

2. Flying abroad

Depends where you want to fly, most countries have slightly differing rules. If you want to fly from the UK to Netherlands, France, Belgium, Spain etc then you simply file a flight plan, inform Customs & Immigration and off you go.

If you want to fly in the USA, Canada then there are differences and the USA is MUCH more regulated. You'll need difference training, as well as to take some exams and do a medical (I believe) over there. South Africa & Australia are different again. So depending on where you want to fly, the in's and out's of achieving that will vary.

3. Aircraft hire

There are lots of options on this. Simplest is to carry on hiring club aircraft. There are people on the airfield who probably own aircraft and if you've come through the training will rent their aircraft to you. You'll meet other people going through the training, and some of them will go and buy aircraft in the future. So you'll get to know people who have aircraft. Then there is the option to buy a share in something which will require an outlay, a monthly standing charge but will have quite low hourly fly rates will be cheaper. Then there is buying outright.. Depending on how often you want to take an aircraft away, how often you fly, what sort of mission profile you have, will change which route you go. With the recession in full swing though aircraft hire rates seem to be decreasing, as does the price of Avgas (at last).

That's my top line thoughts on it anyway. The other thing is aviation, although seemingly taught and feeling like a science, I think is fully in the "art" category. It is more than possible to argue completely contrary points to the above, and no doubt somebody will come along soon and disagree or agree with some of this. That's just the world of aviation! Welcome aboard!

[Nibbler]

1 - how much does it cost to get a basic license?

A basic licence being a PPL

There is a flying school at Endinburgh Airport Learn to Fly in Scotland at Edinburgh Flying Club - Scotland's capital airport - flying lessons, trial flights, flight training (http://www.edinburghflyingclub.co.uk/) and they are quoting £145 in a Tomahawk but landing fees are extra. There is a school at Cumbernauld who I know are good, do a google on them as they don't have a dedicated website.

You might be looking at £8000 - £9000 for the PPL which is what you'll need to fly to Europe.

2- i will ultimately want to fly abroad (europe) do i need a different license? if so again what is the cost in training exams etc

Just get the PPL and do a cross channel flight with an instructor - usually a requirement if you are hiring a club aircraft.

3 - having a license without something to fly is not much use, so how do you people on here fly, do you rent planes? if so what is the costs per day / hour? i.e. if you wanted to go for a weekend somewhere in europe - examples of cheap ownership would be most gratefully accepted.

Hire. It's simple and a whole lot cheaper than any form of ownership for low hours flying, although has the pitfull of being a little unreliable. You could get a share in an aircraft but the pitfall here would be you would need to be flying a good 20-30 hours a year to begin saving anything.

As you can tell at this moment in time i know nothing about nothing, the bottom line is i want to be able to a small plane to europe

We all knew nothing at some point! The cheapest possible route would be PPL / Rent. You might want to do some research on microlight flying as I think there may be changes afoot where you could fly these into Europe (if you can't already) and you might half the costs of training for a licence / hire / ownership.

The downside of licences like the NPPL and NPPL(M) is you can't add the IMCR, Twin engine and Night flying as you can with the PPL

[172driver]

and the USA is MUCH more regulated

care to explain :ugh::ugh::ugh: ??

[172driver]

Now, in answer to the OP's questions:

1) cost - as has been stated, AFAIK anywhere from probably 7k-12k. Used to be a lot cheaper to do in the US or Spain, but as Sterling heads South.... btw, you do NOT need any additional 'training' if you do your license in the US (or any JAR country, for that matter).

2) any license is valid in the a/c of it's country of registry, worldwide. However, in Europe there is a thing called JAA (Joint Aviation Authorities) that produces a JAA (JAR) license. Confused? OK - here goes: as the UK is a signatory to this process, your UK (or any other JAR) license is valid in any of the other JAA countries. So, you can fly a, say, French registered airplane on your UK JAR license and vice versa. And, of course, you can take your G-reg anywhere in the world :ok:

3) Initially renting. Remember: if it floats, flies or f**ks - rent, don' buy! That said, the UK renting scene is rather depressing, so you will most likely want to look for a share or ownership in the future.

4) Knowledge - you are about to embark on a journey of infinte learning, which, IMHO, is one of the beautiful things about aviation. There simply is no point where you 'know it all'. In fact,as you will find out, the more you know, the more you know you don't know.

Keep asking and welcome to Pprune!

[PompeyPaul]

care to explain :ugh::ugh::ugh: ??

Sure, apply to US embassy in London. Go for interview, register on some website, get the visa sent over to your school you will be studying with. Arrive at school, get photographed, finger printed etc, which will only happen some days.

Compared with trott up to local school in the UK, pay your money, and start training.

[Rod1]

“any license is valid in the a/c of it's country of registry, worldwide.”

There is an exception to this. The UK NPPL(a) is currently restricted to the UK only.

You say you want to fly to Europe, but is this for fun or would you have to make it reliably? Do you need to go solo, two up, or a family of 5? Do you weigh in at 300lb, or closer to 150?

The answers to the above have a significant impact on the cost of training and the type of aircraft you would need.

Rod1

[Fright Level]

Learning to fly is a great hobby and your aspiration to fly into Europe the dream of many pilots. Flying is an expensive hobby and I'm based at Fairoaks in Surrey where you can get to Le Touquet, Channel Islands, Normandy etc within an hour. From Edinburgh, you'd need to add about 4 hours each way just to get to the south coast at typical light plane cruise speeds. For a return trip at club rates or a group share, you're looking at somewhere between £700~£1,200 just to get to the south coast of England.

I'd say that was fairly prohibitive. The flip side is I'd love to fly to Scotland and admire the views, spend a weekend on Islay or in the Highlands, but it's beyond my budget when I can get to France in a fraction of the time.

The second issue is the weather. Being fairly far north, the UK often suffers from large weather differences over a relatively short distance. For a new PPL (ie good VMC weather) to hope to fly a 500-600nm trip due south without encountering marginal weather enroute is very unlikely for most of the year I'm afraid.

Certainly learn to fly, enjoy the new skill, but make the most of what you have within a hour of your base as going further afield will certainly eat up that cash!

I may have made the wrong assumption that you want to fly yourself from Edinburgh to Europe. The other options open to you once you have your licence is to jump on a cheap commercial flight "darn sarf" and rent from a school nearer to the coast for your cross channel checkout and enjoy that foreign trip without the sweat and a lot less cost. Alternatively, get an FAA licence based on your UK PPL and take a trip to the USA where flying is a lot more fun, much more accessible and, provided the dollar doesn't gain much more, still a lot cheaper than the UK.

[IO540]

To get worldwide privileges (VFR, noncommercial) you need a license which was issued by the same country as the aircraft is registered in.

The above applies to ICAO licenses, and aircraft with ICAO certificates of airworthiness.

If the above requirements are not complied with, all bets are off. For example the UK NPPL is not ICAO compliant and is thus unrecognised (outside the UK). There are other such licenses, in the far corners of the world.

However there are also concessions, which deliver privileges additional to the first paragraph above. For example you can fly a G-reg plane on any ICAO license (again, noncommercial VFR).

But there are very few of these automatic validations. JAA is the biggest one; it is an arrangement for mutual license validation, where by any JAA PPL is good for any plane registered in JAA-land.

[chornedsnorkack]

Remember: if it floats, flies or f**ks - rent, don' buy! That said, the UK renting scene is rather depressing,

See
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/354607-if-flies-floats-what-if-rolls.html

A short comparison: the most produced thing that flies is Cessna 172, and a Cessna 172R is worth about US$ 240 000. Which is also about the price of a Bentley Arnage.

[dublinpilot]

Learning to fly is a great hobby and your aspiration to fly into Europe the dream of many pilots. Flying is an expensive hobby and I'm based at Fairoaks in Surrey where you can get to Le Touquet, Channel Islands, Normandy etc within an hour. From Edinburgh, you'd need to add about 4 hours each way just to get to the south coast at typical light plane cruise speeds. For a return trip at club rates or a group share, you're looking at somewhere between £700~£1,200 just to get to the south coast of England.

I'd say that was fairly prohibitive.

Listen very carefully to what Flight Level said. (s)he speaks a lot of sense.

If you have to sell your car to fund the lessons, you might find a flight to contential Europe from Edinburgh to be rather expensive.

A typical light aircraft will cost you somewhere between £100-£150 to rent per hour. The cheaper ones will only car two people (slowly) and the more expensive will carry 3 + luggage (or 4 and no luggage) a bit faster.

You only pay for the hours that the engine is running, but most clubs/schools will expect you to use a certain number of hours per day. Typically this is 2-4 hours. So for example, if you are being charged a minimum of 3 hours per day, and you fly somewhere for a week (7 days) then you will be charged the higher of a) the number of hours the engine was running for or b) 21 hours (7days*3 hours per day).

Also, unless you have an Instrument Rating (expensive to get and maintain) and a well equipped (read expensive and not easily found for self hires) you will not be able to fly in weather where visibility is not great, or cloud base is low. This means that you are unlikely to make Europe on a predetermined schedule.

I don't mean to put a dammer on things for you, but if you're making a large sacrafice such as selling your car, just to find your flight training, you need to understand what you are getting in return, and not have false hopes.

Flying is a great privlidge, and wonderful fun. You will get to make some lovely trips, but as you want to travel further away they become very expensive, and extremely weather dependent.

A lot of people start out with great ideas such as yours. Unfortunately most people give up flying within 2 years of getting their licence.

Something for you to think about.

dp