Military Aircraft

[Lister Noble]

Where I live on the Suffolk-Norfolk border we have a lot of military aircraft flying around,mostly low level,last week a Eurofighter/Typhoon passed very near around 200 feet,maybe slightly less,not fast,I would say around 300 knots
We also have Apache helicopters and C130's ,I think they are mostly UK but some could be USAF as both have bases nearby.
I love to see and hear them but I have a question.
There are a significant number of small grass stiprs around here and on approach we will be at the same level as these aircraft,also I often fly around 500-1000 feet.
In say an L4 Cub with no electrics,thus no transponder,flying at the same level as these aircraft,are we visible on their on-board radar,and do they have time to take evasive action?
I was going to post this on military,but not sure if I would get a response.
Lister

[BRL]

Hi. I will copy this over to Military for you so keep an eye in there too. :)

[Lister Noble]

Thank you.

[BabyBear]

Hi Lister,

I have been looking out for some infomative answers, as I too live in an area with almost daily low flying military. Only last week I asked a local, with many years experience flying in the area, the same question and was told they are very unlikely to see you, best to stay high out of the way was the advice. This same chap also advised the recently installed radar at the airfield does not pick him up either.

BB

[SNS3Guppy]

In say an L4 Cub with no electrics,thus no transponder,flying at the same level as these aircraft,are we visible on their on-board radar,and do they have time to take evasive action?


Can they see you? Yes and no. Will they acquire you as a target? Possibly, most likely not. Especially in a wood and fabric airplane (or wood, fabric, and tube metal airframe).

I used to spray fields in a location very close to an "oil burner" low level route through which B-1 bombers regularly flew. Due the the high closure rates and the proximity to terrain, we were both focused on obstacles as much or more than we were looking for traffic.

Stay heads up, know where you may encounter such traffic, and avoid those areas. Your time to recognize a threat may be measured in many cases in seconds...and out of that time you must recognize, process, and take evasive action.

[Zulu Alpha]

We have Chinooks and Apaches right over LKI at 100-400 ft. The only way to avoid them is to keep a good lookout.

There used to be a suggestion that GA kept out of the airspace below 1500 ft because of low flying. At the time they said they couldn't see us on radar. I don't know whether the situation has changed.

The other option is to fly after 5.30 or at weekend when the RAF have knocked off for the day.

ZA

[ShyTorque]

Lister,

Have you read this? It might answer some of your concerns.

Safety Sense Leaflet 18: Military Low Flying | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=2586)

[gpn01]

If you passed at around 200' then I expect it'll be interesting to read the Airprox report that you both filed (assuming that the other aircraft saw you).

[NigelOnDraft]

are we visible on their on-board radar,and do they have time to take evasive action?As an ex-Mud Mover, I have no idea if a Typhoon radar would pick up other low level contacts. But certainly the Harrier, Hawk and Tucano would not since they have no radar ;)

Your eyes v their eyes - keep a good lookout :D

NoD

[J.A.F.O.]

Lister

If you're on course to collide then that's what you're going to do; good luck and a good lookout are your only friends.

[Lister Noble]

Thanks for all the helpfull replies,some in the Military forum as well.
Lister:)

[Skyhawk Pilot]

The Mil helicopters are not so much a danger as they move much slower and have good viz, but the jets are a problem, If you are going to get hit it will be by a jet.
We used to fly HC pipeline patrols in wales at 500ft agl the bit from Milford haven to Halfpenny green was the worst bit, as we flew up valleys and would often get a harrier or the likes come ovet the top of the hill upside down maintaining posertive G and just miss us, while I know we would be seen on the radar the pilot of the jet probably isnt looking at the radar he is 99% outside avoiding terrain damage.
Our HC was fitted with High intensity strobes which I am convinced saved our bacon more than once.
Because at 80knots, by the time we see the jet it has already whistled past and there is no time for evasive action.
A 206 pipeline HC was terminated by a Tornado in the lake district in the late 1980's The tornado pilot thought he had a bird strike and landed at Warton near Preston only to see bits of fibreglass stuck to his machine!

My advice is invest in a pair of HISL's, screw them on and pray to GOD.

[S-Works]

If you passed at around 200' then I expect it'll be interesting to read the Airprox report that you both filed (assuming that the other aircraft saw you).

Not sure he was claiming an airprox, rather that they come over him at 200ft......

[Lister Noble]

I was in the garden.:)

[englishal]

My ZAON PCAS (connected to my Garmin 496) picked up two seakings in a DA off the south coast well before my eyes did. They were 2000' below so no issue but I was curious what could be buzzing around at 200'. And there you go, picked them up exactly where they should have been. Didn't pick up a Harrier (red and white - doing radar trials I think) in the Solent a few months ago.

I regularly see targets in the Yeovilton MATZ so I reckon some military aircraft must transpond and some not....

[stillin1]

Lister Noble,
As your previous replies have stated - there are quite a few of us in the low level 250' to 2500' block (Mil and GA) and there are quite a few of us whom will not be well enough kitted out to bet our lifes on being able to miss one another. Next best? = . Avoid being in a bad place as much as we can. Nothing is going to be foolproof, the secret is not to be one of the fools:ok: Be careful whom you shoot at since I drive Mil and civi, so you get me both ways :ugh:

Happy fying (and Xmas).

[gpn01]

I was in the garden.:)

(Note to self: Don't assume!)

[Humaround]

At a recent CAA Safety evening, RAF told us:

Don't expect fast jets to see you on any kind of radar

Do expect them to use their expensively trained eyes

This gives them 7-8 secs to see and avoid you, maximum

Even though 'low level' they may be encountered anywhere up to 2000', anywhere in the country

Tucanos now have TCAS so it helps if you're squawking Mode C

[will5023]

Hi Lister, I presume your cub has no electrics ? Even so there are simple hand held strobes that are powered by 9v batteries, and can easily be attached somewhere, wil increase your chances of being seen. A friend had one attached to his micro-light, he walked 1000m away and switched it on, no problems seeing it in daylight.....just a thought, although the legality of of a removeable MOD ?

Will.

[P-T]

Just to clarify, as earlier mentioned by Nigel OD, the majority of aircraft do not have air to air radar and the only two you will encounter will be the F3 and the Typhoon. But neither will pick you up as both their radars are tuned to pick up targets doing well over 150 kts and even so, the signature of your aircraft would be so small it would probably be either filtered out as ground clutter or be so small that the system and the pilot will not aknowledge it. This test was carried out with the Typhoon and the Grob tutor, needless to say the Typhoon couldn't find it on the radar, I'm hoping that wasn't classified??????

As everyone has said, Mk1 Eyeball is the best thing available at the moment. But the strobes mentioned will definately help as well.

Happy flying.