View Full Version : Cabair is downsizing
Wee Weasley Welshman
2nd Dec 2008, 20:02
Not news to many of you I'm sure but Cabair are consulting with their FI's over redundancy and by mid 2009 they are talking about reducing the establishment strength by quite big chunks.
They're planning for the downturn it would look like. Probably wise.
WWW
Is this likely to be the PPL side of things or commercial?
VFE.
Wee Weasley Welshman
3rd Dec 2008, 09:45
Both. Definitely involves full time commercial instructors.
WWW
orionsbelt
3rd Dec 2008, 18:17
My how things turn around!!!!!
Wonder who will get the sack in those clubs using both CPL and PPL instructors?
:ugh:
***
BYALPHAINDIA
4th Dec 2008, 00:23
Maybe those who have less 'Service' time at Cabair?
I have been to Cabair, And it 'Breeds' good Instructors.
Think it is inevitable in this 'Current Mess' positions will reduce??
Good Luck To Anyone Who May Be Affected.
2close
4th Dec 2008, 06:12
Could this be a sign that things are beginning to go pear shaped across the FT industry or is it peculiar to Cabair?
I heard a few months back that they had to find £ 1.5M to shore up operations following the Thielert debacle - when you consider Cranfield alone operates 26 x Thielert engines, then there's all the retro-fit PA28's, that's got to be a heavy price tag. Something had to give somewhere.
It is a shame as there are a lot of good people working for Cabair who have put a lot into it.
Good luck to all. I sincerely hope it works out for them.
Something had to give somewhere.
Exactly. This has been on the cards for some time and has only been precipitated by the current economic climate, not as a direct result.
VFE.
woodcoc2000
5th Dec 2008, 18:00
Well if downsizing does indeed happen; despite all the talk about lack of instructors jobs the latest copy of Flight Training News had over ten advertisements for FI's. Oddly enough i am pretty sure one of them was a Cabair ad. I know of 3 people who have recently found instructing work so it is still out there..
Peers Carter
6th Dec 2008, 15:56
Anyone got an update on redundancies at Cabair
SkyCamMK
6th Dec 2008, 16:34
For a company as large as the Cabair group planning is essential in terms of strategic management and since HBOS and other sources of big loans are not now available a change of plan would be necessary. If single engine training is planned for Spain and students are a bit thin on the ground for the new year what else could they do? The fact that they are keeping their people informed is a good thing surely, and the fact that they are not biting and whingeing on this thread is a credit to them I think. But yes I too have heard that they will require fewer staff unless sources of finance for ATPL materialise from somewhere. I know some who are affected but they are staying tight-lipped and hoping to hold onto their jobs and understand at least one has already been let go. Hard times ahead for sure, it could affect any of us and all of us in some way.
flygirl 001
7th Dec 2008, 17:04
FT News does have adverts for FIs... but your lucky if you even get a reply,from any of them...:rolleyes:
get a reply
Therein lies your problem.
I would doubt any school will be interested in wiping a freshly minted lazy FI's arse by calling them back and laying out a red carpet when they've probably got umpteen potential candidates waiting in the lobby for a moment of the CFI's time.
Visit the place.
VFE.
A Very Civil Pilot
8th Dec 2008, 14:44
The scenario that I heard via a Cabair manager, is that the instructors are to be 'made redundant' and re-offered their positions as self-employed!
Several points if true:
1: If you're to be made redundant, there is no job available for you to then be offered it as self-employed. If Cabairs inrentions are correct, it is 'unfair dismissal' that is being offered
2 Most FIs are not self employed according to HMRC. There is a checklist to see if you are here (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/working/work-out-emp-self-emp.htm).
Good idea to join Balpa if there is an unfair dismissal situation ahead!
Peers Carter
9th Dec 2008, 13:30
Lots of rumours of money hickups arround Elstree, hope everything is okay with this lot.:ugh:
Didn't they stop paying the rent on their PA-28's sometime last year, thus grounding them all for a bit?
VFE.
Say again s l o w l y
14th Dec 2008, 17:13
If any FI accepts that pay deal, they should be marched directly to the Psychiatrist.
Flyluke
14th Dec 2008, 19:43
As with any other company at this difficult time, Cabair will have to 'rightsize' in order to survive.
Anyone knows that margins in flying training (private or commercial) are wafer-thin, if indeed they exist at all.
Couple that with the likely outcome of the current £/E impact upon charter flights and it seems likely that short-medium term professional recruitment will be adversely affected.
Cabair carry a huge overhead - I just hope that they make the correct decisions in order to secure the future of their business - even if that means reducing headcount, hopefully just in the short-term
Say again s l o w l y
14th Dec 2008, 20:00
If Cabair have huge overheads, then why not reduce those first? Just brainstorming here.............
Flyluke
14th Dec 2008, 20:30
Were I Cabair, (which, thankfully, I am not) I'd be looking at the whole operation - i.e. all elements of the overhead, people, aircraft, locations, and be trying to 'rightsize' all round.
This is bound to include arriving at the correct balance of Instructors and support staff against current (reducing?) and forecast future business.
Presumably, they are looking at their whole headcount, not just Instructors, and our thoughts and concerns should be with them all.
These guys have been around for many years, and must have some decision-making skill to have kept Cabair afloat this long.
I would imagine that reducing headcount will be just one of the considerations they will need to look at in order to keep the business aloft in the long term. But they will probably be reluctant to reduce the training school estate until they really have to - it is a sad, but realistic fact of life that buildings and operations are harder to replace than people.
D SQDRN 97th IOTC
15th Dec 2008, 06:38
BA pilots went on strike earlier this year...because they feared BA's long term strategy for finding pilots for their "cheap" transatlantic operations didn't involve many Nigels......but more Manuels.
So the writing was on the wall that the UK would become less and less of a source of pilots for the commercial aviation market.
It is not a secret that Cabair have lost a few commercial contracts over the last couple of years either....
Can't say my heart bleads for the FIs on the general aviation side.
I went for a trial rotary "lesson" up there a year or so ago...and met a FI who completely put me off saying any good about Cabair.
Fixed wing aircraft have a slight nose down attitude in S&L flight, he told me in the pre-flight briefing. (It was a 60+60 present.)
But Rotaries have a slight nose up attitude in S&L flight.
"Why was that?" I asked
"I am not here to answer your questions.....", he replied.
So that made for a very quick 15 minute briefing.......and the flight? Well, it was in an R22, and lasted about 45 minutes. So much for a 60 + 60.
Not all the FIs at Cabair are bad.......but the management does allow some FIs with what I call "poor attention to customer satisfaction" through the door. Hopefully it will be these that are shown the door.
2close
15th Dec 2008, 08:08
What? £ 1,000 + £ 25 per hour (after the first 20 hours) down to £ 200 + £ 8 per hour.
You would need to be seriously shot away in the head to accept that 'deal'!
It could be a good way for those on internships to get out of the door early - breach of contract possibly.
As for redundancies, it is the position that is removed not the person - the person losing their job is the consequence of the position being cut - so I can't see how they can cut the positions then self-employ the same people to fill them!! Then again................:rolleyes:
I wonder if senior management positions will be trimmed down or if they'll be taking pay cuts!!
Has anyone heard anything more concrete on this matter or are we just running a thousand miles with a small chinese whisper?
VFE.
Flyluke
15th Dec 2008, 13:53
Probably !
:rolleyes:
Why don't you ask your instructor and report back to us on your findings? This all sounds like bollox to me.....
VFE.
sanjeevbhadresa
9th Jan 2009, 01:17
Anyone heard any more about this?
VNA Lotus
9th Jan 2009, 07:59
great for cabair :)
they did not even reply to my emails before...so... sorry for fi's but happy for cabair :cool:
Tyneradar
9th Jan 2009, 20:38
Believe the Big Cabair gun has been fired. My instructor at Cranfield is gone.
Hi There, please tell us more - just I used to work for Cabair and wondering where and what the cut backs are?
A and C
11th Jan 2009, 21:40
Is it true that Cabair cant get fuel at Elstree ?
BristolScout
20th Jan 2009, 09:37
I've been through three recessions in the course of my flying career, losing my job on each occasion. Stuff happens, and moaning about the management of your airline/flying school is totally counterproductive. They have to keep the business viable, if possible, and the yields are scarily low in the good times. Yes, it's devastating to lose your job, or not to be able to get the first step on the ladder when you've spent a lot of money on getting the qualifications, but life isn't fair. If you can't fly, find something to keep an income, there are jobs out there if you're not too fussy (I once went from being a wide-body captain to a foreign exchange cashier), and wait for the cycle to reverse, as it always does.
Good luck to all flying instructors in this difficult time.
TheOddOne
23rd Jan 2009, 18:43
Stuff happens, and moaning about the management of your airline/flying school is totally counterproductive. They have to keep the business viable, if possible, and the yields are scarily low in the good times.
Couldn't agree more. I'm in a better position than some of my younger colleagues similarly faced with this redundancy, people who depend upon their salary to pay back loans for training. I'm taking the opportunity to take some time out to do some more training, removal of no applied instrument, night etc to make myself more marketable, and I'm prepared to work ad-hoc for whatever I can get until the madness of the money markets subsides and business picks up again.
It is really difficult, though, if you're young and struggling to make a week's rent, let alone run a car so you can get to work!
TOO
tiger2411
29th Jan 2009, 19:04
Now that Cabair are about to go pop in Cranfield I know a great flight school. May I recommend to you all CATS in Cranfield. Go see for yourself, Great place, great, atmosphere great FI, not fogetting the lovely Cessna 150 (MM) and (CK).:D
friendly flyer
30th Jan 2009, 08:20
Would that be the same CATS that can't fly because it hasn't paid it's fuel bill, rent or landing fees? Cabair will long outlive CATS
olliew
30th Jan 2009, 13:56
Tiger2411, as an employee of CATS you will no doubt like to enlighten us as to whether or not Friendly Flyers insinuations are fair.
Double Zero
30th Jan 2009, 16:16
Re. Redundancies and contracts, despite what we like to think there's always a way, particularly when a company know that an individual - or even a group - cannot afford to take them on in court.
In the latter days of BAe Dunsfold, the majority of the Design Liaison staff ( most of them had 30-40 years each in aircraft design ) were made redundant.
After a pause of about a month, freelance designers on short contracts were brought in - last week designing washing machines, this week Harrier bits.
Their huge advantage, to the company way of thinking, was that they could be hired & fired at will.
Say again s l o w l y
30th Jan 2009, 16:23
You couldn't do that now. You cannot make a role redundant and then rehire just a few weeks later for the same position. There are of course ways around it upto a point, but it is difficault and you would be taken to the cleaners very, very easily.
Short term contracts don't work either anymore. If you have been with a company for more than 12 months, then no matter what the contract status, you have the same protection from unfair dismissal as anyone else.
2close
30th Jan 2009, 20:29
Now that Cabair are about to go pop in Cranfield
Is this for real, Tiger?
Can you elaborate on this?
So far nobody has actually said anything to make me disbelieve this is 4/5ths speculation and 1/5th element of truth.
VFE.
Flyluke
31st Jan 2009, 11:07
I wonder if any Cabair FI's would like to contribute to the thread so that we could get an accurate view on how things really are, rather than continue this speculation?
In theory, if times are so bad at Cabair, they have plenty of time to.