Question for ab initio instructors.

[doubleu-anker]

Here's the scenario.

Student pilot, (not even basic panel IF training) in a light trainer say a C150, inadvertently caught in IMC, or in a corner where said student, will have to go into IMC say to descent through cloud, to get down. The aircraft has no AI/AH, or turn and balance. You are in VHF contact as they have called for help. How would you attempt save the students life, or give them a fighting chance? Maybe you are ATC with a PPL. You have probably one minute or less to tell them what to do, before they loose it.

Hopefully it would be hypothecial but it has happened.

Years ago, this remedy was not taught very often but it can save a life.

Of course we were all taught to stay out of cloud and we were so damned scared of getting into IMC as we knew the consequences.

I await replies with interest.

[will fly for food 06]

How high is the cloud base below?

If spinning were taught you could get them to do the old trick of spinning through it:eek:

[bucket_and_spade]

A C150 without a horizon or a TC or a slip ball? What's it got then?

Sounds a little unrealistic to me.

It sounds like you have an answer for us...?

An intrigued,

B&S :ok:

[Duchess_Driver]

Tell them to bend over, put their head between their legs and kiss their ar5e goodbye.

Studies show (allegedly) you have three minutes in which the average ppl without instrument training will last before losing control - and that's full panel.

Somebody once said to trim full aft, retard the power then sit on your hands - using rudder to keep the ball and wings in the correct place. A/C stalls, drops then porpoises back to the stalled position. Cycle begins again. Allegedly cloud break is at about 2-300fpm which should give time to arrest your descent......Not tried it and not entirely convinced.

Comments.

[BEagle]

Turn onto South.

Decelerate and select full flap.

Select idle power and retrim for a straight descent. Keep liquid compass steady with feet.

When below cloud, recover to straight and level. Then yell for help on 121.5, if the teenage co-piglets in their people tubes don't interrupt.

[Cap'n Arrr]

Well here in Aus a turn and balance is mandatory for aerial work (including flight training) so it shouldn't happen :E

Have heard a story of someone using a water bottle on the dash as a makeshift AH, interested to see if that works:confused:

Otherwise get them to power back to idle, and push forward to 500'/min RoD or so, and then keep wings level by seeing if the DI is turning. Thats all I can think of, and it's probably what I'd do if I ended up in that situation

[Mach Jump]

In stable high wing types like Cessnas turn onto East or West where the compass has least roll/bank induced error, and set up a gentle descent of about 4-500 feet per min. Then fly 'hands off' down through the clouds just using the rudder pedals to keep a constant heading on the magnetic compass. The aircraft will keep its own wings level so long as you maintain a constant heading.

MJ

[doubleu-anker]

Ok, let us say it has a full set of instruments but the poor pilot has never been taught to use them.

"No instruments" was a hint.

The compass will not need to be monitored.

[bucket_and_spade]

Have heard a story of someone using a water bottle on the dash as a makeshift AH, interested to see if that workshttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif


In a normal, 1G, coordinated turn the bottle would appear just as it does in S+L flight so it would be no good for indicating whether you're in a turn or not! Hence why you don't spill your tea when you're a guest of BA and you're making a turn in the cruise.

[usedtofly]

IMC in Dubai? Get outta here :E

[tbavprof]

I'm going with the hands-off descent...trim for Vg. Or how about a 1 minute turn (no clock/watch?) to get out of what he's gotten into. Altimeter and VSI to hold the turn level. Or has the pitot and static port iced over as well? Since there's no instrumentation, can't look at the compass, and I'm ATC, give him a no-gyro letdown...now I guess you'll tell me there's no xponder and I can't identify him on primary.

After it's all said and done, the CAA needs to yank the instructor's certificate for signing off a solo outside of the pattern without having given minimal hood-time instruction, 180 degree turn for inadvertent IMC, and less than stellar instruction on decision-making (continued VFR into IMC, continued flight with multiple flight instrument failures). They probably need to haul the operator in as well based on the condition of the aircraft. Preferrably immediately, but probably after the memorial service.

[Nearly There]

Have heard a story of someone using a water bottle on the dash as a makeshift AH, interested to see if that workshttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif


Or a cat...cat leans left turn left, cat leans right turn right! simple:ok:

[doubleu-anker]

The guy has one chance.

Inherent stability of the aircraft, so it must be taken advantage of.

Take a paper plane that has been folded and trimmed correctly and it will glide to the ground, without any control inputs on the way down. The paper plane does not know if it is in IMC.

This incident happened in France in the early '70's. VFR on top and was going to remain on top until his fuel ran out. Didn't have a real clue where he was and was low on fuel but the only real thing he did right was to call for help. I believe ATC got a pilot or instructor in and talked him down. This is what they told him to do:

1/Carb ht on, Power, 1500 rpm and leave.

2/ Feet off the rudders and leave them off!! (Tie them under the seat if necessary.)

3/ No aileron inputs. I.E., keep the wheel horizontal.

4/ Elevator to set up Vg and trim.

Did I say feet off the rudders?


This works as I have tried it. If you doubt it, experiment yourself or take a safety pilot with you and try it under the hood. All you really need is the ASI. and it is better to have no control inputs, than the wrong inputs.

No one seems to teach this for some reason these days but I am sure there are pilots that would be alive today if they used the above escape.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

double - you are very right.




WWW

[Keygrip]

Anybody come across the Isle of Wight built aircraft "ARV, Super 2". Small plastic red thing. Two seater, high wing, 2 stroke engine.

I'll never forget the demonstration pilot that taught me to fly it saying, "Trouble? Close throttle and let go of everything, everything"

It set it's own super stable glide and brought itself home. Specifically designed for the job, they said.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Or a cat...cat leans left turn left, cat leans right turn right! simple

and a canary, in case the exhaust is leaking.


IMC in Dubai? Get outta here


Never heard of sandstorms ? Couldn't see the road back from Sharjah - and I was walking on it !

[timzsta]

I am going to give that a try out soon.

Having got the student back on the ground, you had better prepare what you are going to put in the MOR.

[doubleu-anker]

Quite. You may want to experiment with different configurations of power, flap or clean, etc. Whatever works best for your aircraft.

However it may not be a student, who is under close supervision. It is more likely to be a PPL. Unless the pilot is the holder of a valid IR, they are more vulnerable to getting caught out.

[dont overfil]

I've used a similar technique on an Archer. Slow down gradually applying full flap, trim all the way back and the aircraft decends at 200 - 700 fpm as the nose gently bobs up and down. It was described to me as the black hole landing method for night forced landings. I was taught keep my feet off the pedals.
Demonstrating this helped me sell the aircraft to a very safety concious buyer.
DO.

[Tmbstory]

All these years we have taught people to fly either VFR and then later on to fly IFR.

If we taught people how to "FLY", both VFR and IFR combined, a safer outcome could be achieved.

A basic problem with VMC to IMC for an untrained pilot is a possible loss of control in the IMC flight stage. He should be taught to replace the outside visual references with inside visual references.

We can go to the Moon and send space ships to Mars, surely in this age we should have the Technology to solve the above issue. Think of the lives that may be saved.

Tmb
PS: About the cat in the cockpit, if there is any doubt about where is down, then drop the cat, it always lands on it's paws.

[Simon150]

As it happens, I got this demonstrated to me a few days ago as part of the FIC. Just for interest purposes of course....

Aircraft C152

Carb Heat ON
Throttle IDLE
Full Flap
Trim Full up

Aircraft enters a stable 15degish left hand descent with minimimal pitch oscillation. Hand and feet of the controls we descended from 5500 to approx 2000ft in reasonably choppy VMC with the attitude never reaching anything excessive.

An interesting demonstration but I am not sure about the practical aspects as discussed already.

[tbavprof]

Now that the IMC let-down is done, what kind of training do you give on VFR-under-the-bottom (aka scud-running) flight? Yes, I understand it's to be discouraged as a dangerous practice, etc. etc.

No SVFR/ATC allowed.

[doubleu-anker]

We all, without exception, do silly things from time to time. Students, PPL's, CPL's ATPL's etc., are no exception because we are human, therefore fallible. For the judges juries and executioners on the boards who want to hang the instructor, these incidents could also occur outside the supervising instructors control.

Why not do away with stall recovery training because they should not have got slow in the first instance?

I was just trying to remind some people a way to get out of possible trouble and avoid an incipient spin, or pulling the wings off in a spiral dive. It is called sharing information.

Safe flying.

[tbavprof]

Not having a go at you. Serious question. Have you ever taught someone how to safely complete a cross-country flight, no radar contact, at 500-800 AGL in precipitation and marginal visibility (say 3NM)?

[doubleu-anker]

No, is the answer. Could have but refused. I would not have taught or encouraged a student, to do that. The time to turn back is when you first think about it, as there is always another day. That is what I tried to teach my students. Admittedly my time instructing was not in Europe.

Did teach low level navigation in good VMC at cruise speed and also with a stage of flap to slow things down somewhat. You can derive from that, what you want.

Many an experienced pilot has come to grief scud running.

Having retired from basic instruction, 33 years ago I am a little out of touch I guess.

[tbavprof]

doubleu

I certainly don't encourage this as a SOP, but it can be valuable in an advanced training program. Definitely something I wouldn't try with a student or PPL, but not a bad awareness addition to CPL (assuming they already have an IR) or FI training. Something along the lines of upset recovery training.

The flight planning is intense and the inflight workload is exhausting. 150 NM of this and you'll feel like you've just flown 6 hours of hard IMC by hand. Real world, I'd rather go up, punch holes in the clouds, keep my eyes on the panel, and have those little voices on the radio telling me when and where to turn and when to go up or down.

A good lesson in why you don't want to do this, and also on how to do it safely and what to expect if you're forced into doing it.

[doubleu-anker]

Oh agreed in the advanced stage it is good. None of us can have too much training, however, economics dictate otherwise.

[timzsta]

I thought low level navigation was part of the PPL syllabus myself.? Isn't it Exercise 18B - Operation at Minimum level. I always do one navigation detail with my student where we fly at 700ft agl, in the slow safe cruise configuration. If you can do it on a day when the cloudbase is about 1200ft and visibility is less than 10km then even better I say.

Then also there is Exercise 17 - Precautionary Landing with Power. One should also be teaching bad weather circuits, which I usualy do as part of Exercise 17.

[TheRed(lfc)Baron]

In the new NPPL test "one leg" must be conducted at low level, so we have to teach low level nav ex's