Ok here we go light blue touch paper.........

[peterprobe]

Once again post pub night with ex mil mates another debate especially as it is POETS day and even I cant slide off this early.... with the boss still in!!!!.

One oil rig driver (capt) one HEMS driver (capt obviously) me a **** all driver but desk at the mo, a few pints and the debate starts. Why the HUGE difference in pay. Oil equals money clearly but when they actually got talking (on edge of fistymacuffs haha) about the ins and outs of daily jobs I was tending to lean with the HEMS mate.
Round one, no IR yes but single pilot sometimes in **** weather with loads of pressure to get job done, must be able to do limited IR in case of inadvertant IMC etc. Off shore mate fights back with crap weather, limited options over sea, company pressure for revenue flights etc ding ding.
Round two, Hems mate comes out fighting with no idea where your going to go on every job, managing banging round some parts of very clustered busy airspace etc etc, Rigs fights back with night pitching deck and 19 smelly oil rig workers who need to be somewhere or company getting big hit. HEMS comes back with small jab that some companies do HEMS at night with Police (not his). Ding ding.
Round three was mine but I am cheap and the bar was about to shut so we left.
I await your debate gents.......................:ok:

[diginagain]

As one of the smelly oil rig workers I'd be inclined to go with your HEMS mate too.

Although I might be a little biased, as, for the second time in two weeks our bus drivers took the Cooks Tour and tried to deliver their pax to a location we left seven weeks ago.

[pohm1]

It's a simple matter of of time and money.

In touring offshore, we spend so little of our time actually at work that we need more money to spend in our time off.:ok:

HEMS guys are constantly at work or on standby and have no opportunity to spend a large salary, therefore they get less.:ok:

Easy when you think about it!


P1

[nodrama]

Why the HUGE difference in pay.


urrmm......might have something to do with the fact that the oil companies can afford to pay more money for the pilots and the profit returns are bigger, where as most UK HEMS operations are paid for by charities. I see your point but it's got nothing to do with the skill/ qualification of the pilots.

[handysnaks]

Can the oil business in the N Sea survive without helicopters?
Can the ambulance business survive without helicopters?

Can the oil business afford lots of money?
Can the charities that pay for air ambulances afford lots of money?

:cool:

Oops, too slow

[ivakontrol]

Like everything else in life it's less to do with skill levels and more to do with supply and demand or how much value the bean counters place on the work. :\

[peterprobe]

It's a simple matter of of time and money.

In touring offshore, we spend so little of our time actually at work that we need more money to spend in our time off.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

HEMS guys are constantly at work or on standby and have no opportunity to spend a large salary, therefore they get less.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Easy when you think about it!


P1

That my friend is a beauty hehe I will steal that and use it next time we meet for a few beers............. then run like **** before HEMS mate launches me over the bar.:ok:

[timex]

HEMs...No Night, if weather is crap no fly. Sounds good to me!

[Gomer Pylot]

All the above. Most companies only pay what they have to, in order to hire qualified workers. As long as pilots are willing to work for low wages, low pay will continue, and I see no trend toward holding out for more money. Indeed, there is an endless supply of low-time pilots willing to work for little or no pay. The oil companies are making so much money that they have to spend a lot of it, and they don't care what the helicopters cost, so there is plenty of money for everyone. A couple of years ago we discovered that one of the major oil companies doesn't even bother to break out helicopter expenses as a separate item in their budget, it's just a miscellaneous expense, paid from petty cash as it were, even though they were paying ~$1 million per month. When your net profit is on the order of $100 billion per year, a few quid per pilot per month is negligible.

Having done both jobs, I have to say there is no other explanation for the difference in pay. Offshore, you have more capable equipment and two pilots. IFR is easier than VFR when the weather is less than perfect. In US EMS, you're doing night approaches to unprepared accident scenes single-pilot, in marginally powered aircraft, but most of your time is spent watching TV or reading PPRuNe, and you only have to do it a couple of hours per week, so I guess it all averages out somehow.

[SASless]

This is all so....well mercenary....what happened to just flying for the sheer love of it? Any pay is just icing on the cake!

[Gomer Pylot]

Oh, I fly for free. But I have to get paid for showing up at the base. That part is no fun, and I refuse to do it for free.

[Pullharder]

Ok this is for free.....Peterprobe,this is just for YOUR mates.......
If the ex-mil guys with their mil pensions would hold out for more or say they won't accept that sort of pay for Hems, then Hems would have to pay more benefiting everyone who flies EMS......I know it's a charity run thing, but they could afford more....Simple really........
And before we start, No, I do not fly Hems so it is not personal, no I do not want to fly for the military nor wished I had,yes I thank them for going abroad and risking their lives as I wouldn't for this Government (unless someone invaded the UK)!!! Yes, I do know ex-mil guys who accepted the lower wages saying that their pensions topped up their pay...I just feel for the civvie guys who are paid less because of the ex mil who keep the wages lower....
Tell them that and then Duck under the table....................
Cheers............

[peterprobe]

Mate chill, I put this on here as a currently serving bloke after listening to mates in a pub!!!
Firstly don't blame the mil and ex mil for having a pension they earned their pension as does anyone inculding yourself I am sure by working for a company/military for the required time to earn that pension. If you did 12/20/22 years with the same company from about age 17 or 18 and decided to do something else so so what? Your pension is yours as a Brucey bonus and the company employing you should not rely on your pension. If they do don't work for the feckers, and if you say they don't pay that much because of all the ex mil people floating about taking these lower paid jobs because the have pension in bag so what!!! They earned it you can hardly blame a company either as the will take on the people with the skill set they require for a wage they are happy with. Think that is called buisness but not my field so not sure. Not that I know
but having just spoken to my HEMS mate it is an industry wide prob not an individual company prob and funny old thing airlines have a different wage scheme hmmmmmmm why is that. My original post was light hearted and supposed to be as I was (in the pub you understand) really trying to understand with the skill sets BOTH pilots bring to the party how the INDUSTRY in general (BALPA and co) look upon it. Bit like saying a Doctor in A and E is worth more than a local GP, skill sets different but same job really. OK enough sorry about bit of a rant.:sad:

[SASless]

PP,

The sad point is retired military pilots have readily accepted lesser wages and were able and happy to do so because of that pension.

The truth is civilian pilot wages have and do suffer from that.

So many of my countrymen did just that as they saw a civilian flying job to be both a way of topping off that pension but also as a way of using up some of the free time they suddenly themselves confronted with.

I never could understand why they were so ready to work for part time wages on a full time job?

The net effect was the young civvie pilot trying to raise a family and save for the future was ham stringed by that practice.

[ShyTorque]

SASless,

I think no ex-mil pilot in UK has ever been happy about the low public services pilot salaries. Possibly very different west of the Atlantic. I earned a UK military pension but certainly couldn't afford to live on it. Few pure fliers could when I left the military, nor can they today.

There were very few civvy rotary wing jobs at all in the early 90's. The best qualified merely took what was available. I was lucky enough to go abroad instead. When I returned home nearly five years later the public services salaries had not increased and jobs were still scarce. Should folk like me have refused to work, left the profession entirely, or what?

I eventually left that type of work when, instead of the long promised direct employment (rather than through a contractor), which would have given us a reasonable salary, the pilots on my unit were offered a 15% salary cut and a week less annual leave to stay in post under the employment of a "cheaper" employer who had been awarded the new contract.

[peterprobe]

Mate I feel for him. It is of course called work or finding a job or life, Just really don;t like the way all civvies seem to think that mil or ex mil in any country think they are getting the jobs. ( I dont have one either still in mil) Simple really, in our flying world hours/experience/ and qualifications make up your CV. if you don;t have what you need, go get it. If the company you just applied to said bugger off you need this or that... go get it. If your trying to raise a family pay the mortgage etc and fly don't be envious of the people that do.... they in any which way or form have done what they need to do to get where they are. If the industry is paying less than you think is should DO something apart from post on here. Any way back to my two mates debate ...............

[Pullharder]

Hey PP, I am chilled mate, but you asked why the difference in pay, and I gave you an honest answer!!! You are right, ex-mils pension,my pension, whoever, nothing to do with the company that employs you...but, the companies know that ex-mil guys in most cases have pensions so offer lower wages.....99% of police, hems etc employ ex-mil, so there's your answer....
Skills set...Hmmm, just different requirements for different jobs whether it be offshore, SAR, Hems whatever....Single pilot in crap weather, you'll work hard.. Two crew offshore, you'll both work hard!! New co-jo, night & bad weather,he/she will be maxed out and you'll be working bloody hard watching everything!!! Different skills for different jobs.....
Shytorque, not blaming you or others for taking the only jobs available at the time, but lets be honest the reason Hems,Police pay etc is so low because of ex- mil guys taking the lower pay....that's the truth, plain and simple.
PH.

[timex]

PH, my figures are "guesstimates" but if you accept that a Capt on the North Sea earns 65-75k per annum, then why would/should you expect a company employing HEMS or Police pilots to pay the same? The NS guys work in all crap and quite a lot work away from home, those that don't have to relocate. The other guys live close to where they work and HEMS don't work nights. Would I want to go to the NS..No, am I happy working the routine I do, Yes. Wages could be better but what do we do, Strike? Most guys doing Police and HEMs seem to be fairly happy with their lot. Its horses for courses.

As for taking the lower wages, yes we do, but is it not also the case that the Mil guys are prefered because they have all the right ticks in the boxes?

[ShyTorque]

Pullharder, At the time, many ex-military pilots had the required experience to get the jobs, most civvy trained pilots apparently didn't. That's just market forces in action.

After I and another ex-military pilot left, the new contractor had great difficulty finding another pilot with the required experience and in six months used a whole series of "floater" pilots, more than twelve, according to my ex-colleagues. The unit we were with mandated double the CAA minimum hours. Some of these pilots were not invited back. They later lowered the crossbar with regard to hours flown and now use some wholly civilian trained and experienced pilots.

[Pullharder]

Timex, I am glad you are happy where you are, but if you didn't have that ex-mil pension,would you have gone to the north sea for better pay, even though it may not be everyone's cup of tea?????? Do you think a lot of people would have gone that way if they didn't have a pension to back them up??
Anyway,
There are also many civvies out there that have the required experience, I for one have lot's of onshore,day/night and other types of flying, achieved in various countries,and although I do enjoy my job in many ways, and have no plans to leave,in the future I wouldn't mind doing Hems for a bit, but I won't ACCEPT the substantially lower pay........Should you be paid the same?? In my honest opinion no, for some of the reasons you stated.....Should Hems/police pay substantially more than they are though?? Absolutely.(N.sea P1 72k-90+)............but they won't while people accept what they are offering. If there was no shortage of pilots to fly hems/police over the last few years, then the requirements wouldn't keep coming down so another reason for the pay to go up (which I know Bond have increased for Hems,but it is way too low still)!!!
PH.

[rotorspeed]

We've been here before folks and the reality is pay rates are - and should be - determined by market forces, end of story. Businesses will generally pay the least they need to in order to get a professional job done. Especially now.

The more demand exceeds supply, the lower the salary. And vice versa. The relative value of skill sets is a secondary issue.

[ShyTorque]

Yes, we've been here before because that's the way the whole business world works, not just in aviation.

If the customer demands a certain standard and it isn't available at the price offered, there are two choices. Either the price goes up or the standard comes down.

If a civvy trained pilot accepts a low salary, then surely he is as much to "blame" as a military trained pilot. Obviously this is happening now. We've had previous discussions about low hour pilots on here saying they will work for nothing and some even say they pay to ferry an aircraft to maintenance. I've grown tired of saying they shouldn't do it. It's the same argument but lower down the food chain.

[handysnaks]

Timex, I am glad you are happy where you are, but if you didn't have that ex-mil pension,would you have gone to the north sea for better pay, even though it may not be everyone's cup of tea?????? Do you think a lot of people would have gone that way if they didn't have a pension to back them up??


Pullharder. I was in the military, left without a pension worked on the N Sea for 5 years and then left to move down south and work for PAS. In doing so I voluntarily took a big pay cut. (not a complaint, just a fact)! The pension thing is a blind alley and if it makes you feel better to believe it, go ahead and fill your boots. Leaving Hems aside, within the police, we are paid (either directly or indirectly), by council tax payers. There is a limit to how much those tax payers are willing to pay, especially for what some might feel is a 'luxury item' like a police helicopter. The one off capital purchase of a helicopter is something a lot of Police Authorities can accept. It is the ongoing cost of running a helicopter that makes the accountants sweat. A significant proportion of that cost is pilot salaries. If you think that Police Authorities will pay N Sea wages (especially in these times of shrinking budgets), then you are sadly mistaken. It is nothing to do with offsetting salaries with military pensions.
In police aviation we are in a market with a very limited (and reducing), income stream. Your aspirations (and the aspirations of BALPA, that we should all be twin pilot), although understandable are the sort that would cause a rapid downsize in the whole market.
I assume that if your Council shove an extra couple of quid on your council tax bill for next year to pay the Police Authority precept you won't mind then:)

[garrygaz]

I would agree, military pensions are a complete blind alley, they have not kept up with RPI, mine kicks in at full rate next month (yes I am that old); it seems its going to be pretty pants. If the missus didn't work, I'd be living in a cardboard box, behind Woolies, well at least until they go tits up as well.:ugh:

[Sulley]

Interesting comments and unfortunately both sides are right !

Not all ex mill pilots have a pension but i think in the early days of particularly police flying most did and consequently the salaries were lower and offset by the individual.After all the Aviation providers are in it to make a profit and therefore what they charge the customer isn't then passed on to the employee.Over the last few years what was a regular source of new pilot's, the military , has slowed and so the market has opened up for all. we have a choice to accept or not whatever the pay rate is. The only realistic way to up the salary therefore is to take out the requirement for profit and directly employ the plots.This is becomming more common in the Police world. It does however open up all kinds of cans with some reasonably sized worms in !!!!
That said because there isn't a standard rate of pay across the industry even the rates of pay for direct employ vary so a suitable salary scale for all emergency service flying doesn't exist.
As for the ex mill civvy experience arguments I don't think it really matters.Police /HEMS is what it is if you have enough general flying under your belt the individual requirements can be learnt .To say that one camp is ideally suited already is a myth perpetuated by that particular camp(whichever it may be !) The major problem that does occur is if you advertise and get no one suitable the experience level can be lowered and this should NOT happen.Our industry is driven by market forces and like all things in life you get what you pay for.

[timex]

PH, you asked if I would have gone to the North Sea without a pension, possibly but unlikely. As you have said you don't want to work for low wages so you will continue to do what you are doing for now. All I/we ex Mil Pilots have done is made a decision to go for the lower wages but done it after 22 yr or more in a very demanding Mil system. For myself job satisfaction and lifestyle/outweigh the big bucks...

Every company has different pay scales, every Direct employed Air support Unit have different scales, how would you regulate that? I'd be chuffed if you could get me north Sea rates, or even Met Police..:ok::ok:

Each to their own...

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

I am intrigued by the heat in this debate, which I feel was the driect objective of the original post (although he seems to deny this later on). I am ex-mil with no pension, have done police and HEMS and am currently taxi-driving in the NS.

To believe that flying a HEMS helicopter to a person in need is "more demanding" than other types of flying is in my view a myth. With over 3,000 HEMs missions completed I am left with the impression that the more serious a case you are trying to reach, the less risk you should take. My Ambulance Service Operations Manager said to me at start of ops to remember that there may be one person in desperate need, but you have 3 fit live persons already on the heli. Don't create your own casualties!!! As the JAR-OPS ACJ on the subject states - the risk should be proporational to the needs of the task. If someone is in the process of dying, maybe not a good idea to try and join them.

This impression has followed me to the NS where I daily move about 70 odd people to and from their places of work. To have 19 faces looking forward during the latter stages of a night ARA in marginal conditions, landing in the turbulent sector with a new P2, in my view is far more demanding than any other type of flying I have ever done including HEMs (And my HEMS unit was the only UK unit with CAA authorisation to conduct Primary HEMS tasks at night into and out of un-recced HLS. The heli having no stab and basic VFR kit - not allowed under todays rules).

As far as the issue of money is concerned it is a plain simple fact that in modern business or administrations, nobody will give you anything unless you are prepared to fight for it.
Although on the NS we are supporting a massive industry, that is not the reason we are well paid. Our current payscales are the result of some pretty determined industrial actions carried out in the last 6 years by people who felt the only way to improve our lot is to threaten the withdrawal of our services. Such actions are divisive, dangerous and need to be thought through before being implemented, supported of course, by the BALPA network. To suggest that individual HEMs and Police units could attempt this folly.

Ex-mil guys (me being one) have a huge advantage on our civvy counterparts. Most of the flying necessary for qualifications and licences has been paid for by the tax-payer. At the moment the average young civvy entering the NS brings with them debts almost exceeding £100K, spent in the pursuit of their licences.

As long as pilots are willing to profer their services for the wages on offer there will be no imporvement. It is a free market economy. This applies equally to ex-mil and civvies alike.

I really enjoyed my time working for the Police and Ambulance services, but for me, the heart of our profession and the ability to generate at least some wealth is in the offshore sector of our industry.

If you want fun, boys-own type flying, stick with HEMs and Police. I hear these days that the average police pilot is lucky to get one vehicle pursuit a year. My first shift at EGNT, at the height of the twokking craze, in one night we had 14 pursuits. I went home dizzy!!

[Pullharder]

AMEN......:ok:

[Aser]

the latter stages of a night ARA in marginal conditions, landing in the turbulent sector with a new P2, in my view is far more demanding than any other type of flying I have ever done including HEMs

Lets not forget a SAR mission in the worst conditions at night... :bored:

Regards
Aser