What time to log...

[zh8001]

Hi there,
I just passed my FAA instrument rating and now I am not sure when to log what..
I fly a N- plane in Europe with a FAA license based on my JAR license.
In Europe you log IFR when you fly IFR regardless of VMC/IMC... Since I have a JAR logbook (no difference between actual/simulated time), any hints how I should log my time?
When I fly at night on an IFR flight plan with my N- plane, do I need the 3 landings to a full stop to carry passengers? Even if that is not required by JAA?

And then, do I log IFR time in Night operational conditions?
Thanks for your help,

Ciao,
John

[Cobalt]

With dual licences and different rules what you can log (biggest difference: both logging PIC when flying with an instructor when you are rated on an aircraft) you can't keep a single logbook that nicely adds up in both FAA and JAR terms.

You can either keep two logbooks or you can log, say, according to JAR and when you ever have to add up total hours for FAA further licences you can include/exclude hours according to FAA rules. That is what I do - I have one JAR logbook - although I have a standalone FAA PPL/IR as well as a JAR CPL/IR.

Now to your specific questions
- Log Day as Day
- Log Night as Night (AFAIK all logbooks log night separately)
- Log time with "sole reference to instruments" ("instrument flight time" in FAA speak). This is the important number for higher licences both in FAA and JAA land.

The above is 100% clear cut - it should be clear at all times if you are flying at day or night, and whether you fly by sole reference to instruments or not.

Now to IFR flight.

1) Don't log night flight in the UK as "IFR flight". Just don't.

2) Log airways flight or anly other flight operated primarily under an IFR ATC clearance as IFR

3) Grey area: IFR flight OCAS. I would personally only log such a flight as IFR if
- I prepared and conducted it with the expectation to fly the majority of it in IMC,
- They are an off-airways extension of an airways flight, for example when going to Newquay and the airway ends somewhere over Devon...

If I pop up through a layer to go on top on a beautiful day and pop down later again I don't consider the overall flight as IFR flight, notwithstanding the 5 minutes of IFR taking place, and just log the 5 minutes as sole ref.


Of course you can consider yourself flying IAW IFR at night and at day in brilliant weather, but whom are you cheating with logging that?

[Cobalt]

Ah, and on the landings: The 90-day take-off and landing currency requirement is a licence requirement under 14 CFR (FAR) pt. 61, so if you want to fly using you FAA licence you have to have 3 night take-offs and landings to carry passengers at night. Note the FAA night is SS+60 to SR-60.

If you want to fly using your JAR licence, which you can do in an N-Reg in the country the licence it is issued [presumably in your case the UK] you only need 1 of your three at night.

Neither FAA nor JAR require these to be full stop.

Small curiosity: If you had a JAR instrument rating you would not need night take-offs and landings for passenger carrying currency when using your JAR licence/rating...

[Bucket]

IFR and IF

As I understand it IFR refers to the RULES (and airspace etc) under which you fly. IF refers to the conditions. If you have one of those large (sort of A4 ish) JAA logbooks you will see two columns for both, and yes a separate column for night.

Frankly I have stopped logging IF time since the vast majority is with the autopilot on; if I'm IMC at FL250 and 'George' is flying can I really take the credit especially when it's multi-crew. So my IF column has not seen ink for a while but my IFR column is nearly always filled in, in parenthesis to the actual flight times for the trip.

[mcgoo]

Neither FAA nor JAR require these to be full stop.

The FAA requires under 14CFR PT61.57 that the night landings be done to a full stop.

[Nashers]

in my logbook i have total flight time, IFR flight time, Night flight time, PIC, co-pilot, instructor, IF flight time and Nav time.

the total time tells me my total hours.
my IFR total times tells me how many hours i have flown within my total time.
my Night time tells me how many night hours i have flown within my total time.

the same goes for each of the other times i can log. note that it is not a double entry into my logbook. IE- if an IFR flight lasts for 5 hours i would log total time of 5 hours, IFR time 4hrs 50min (taxi time removed) and night flying as say 2hrs 30min if i took off before sunset and landed at night.

if i look at my logbook in the future and see this flight i would read it as it was a 5 hour long flight wich consisted of 4hrs 50min of IFR flying and also consisted of 2hrs 30min of night flying.

when flying VFR, night flying is conducted under IFR rules but your actualy flying under SVFR.

[SNS3Guppy]

Neither FAA nor JAR require these to be full stop.


For FAA purposes, night landings used for currency must be done to a full stop. See 14 CFR 61.57(b):

(b) Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and—

(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).



As for logging instrument time, whether you're on an IFR flight plan is really irrelevant. Log the time spent operating by reference to instruments.

[Cobalt]

For FAA purposes, night landings used for currency must be done to a full stop.

SNS3Guppy, mcgoo

Thank you for the correction.

C.

[chrisbl]

The best advice I was given was to log to the most conservative requirements if using a single log book and the hours are to be used for licence or rating purposes in both systems.

When I did my FAA commercial, the examiner tired to trip me up by claiming that some of my night time did not meet the one hour after sunset requirements as they had been done in the UK.

Anticipating this sort of thing, I had printed off the sunset times for that lat /long for all the night flight.

After that he did not check anything else in the logbook and when I offered to show him my long cross country evidence (again done in the UK) he declined.

OK so I am a few hours short in night terms for JAR but does it matter?