SIA not renewing 70% Expat Contracts

[jet grande]

SIA is again at it's best. Panic Stations !!! Using the financial crisis to slash expat contracts.
They have been calling the expats whose contracts are up for renewal in 3 months and telling them that they will not be renewing at least 70% of those contracts as SIA is entering the "Cutting the Fat" mode.
The irony is that some of these pilots have received very recently a "Long Service Award" and a medal for the "loyalty" to the company to be told a month later that they will have to go.... What an absolute gutless outfit.... Yes all the expats in SIA must be afraid.. very afraid... their contracts are not worth the ink they are written , never mind the paper !!
SIA is at the moment retrenching the pilots whose contracts are up for renewal so that they can avoid compensation pay, but they might change their minds and start retrenching others. Remember, the contract is only valid for 3 months.
In the meantime while this retrenchment is going on they are still training new Captains . Doesn't make any sense !! SIA has ceased to be a safe and secure job....

[Mr Pilot 2007]

I see another thread on here about sia cadets from india. Someone posted they are not takingon these recruits now but are looking for CPL holders from india.

Is this the start of a shift in there workforce for reasons we can only speculate as to why.

[Metro man]

Expat contracts are fixed term and provide additional benefits compared to local terms, such as housing and school fees. If the contracted period is coming to an end the company decides not to renew they are perfectly within their rights, as would the pilot be if he got a better offer somewhere else.

Expats are a means of coping with changing requirements, easy come, easy go and paid above the odds to take this into account. Pilots in India are finding the same thing.

SIA offer local terms with less benefits but greater security. The expensive expats will be the first to go in any downturn, once things pick up again more expats will be employed with better conditions than the locals.

If you want a secure job with SIA, take local terms.

[Ndicho Moja]

Metro Man, well said. Precise and to the point. I am a contracting pilot in the S.E. Asian region and we are just that, contractors. When the contract is due for renewal EITHER party can say thank but no thanks. Should there be a change of minds they/we will advertise/make ourselves known at the appropriate time. Contractors are NOT employees in the traditional sense. Loyalty plays a very small part. Its is an exchange of money for labour. No work no pay/ no pay no work.

Here endeth the lesson.

[Flaperon777]

I think jet grande has a very valid point.There's the letter of the law and the spirit of it!
No doubt these expats due for extensions must be aware of their t & c's.But do remember,a mercenary is not one by choice.A pilot,albiet a contractual one,always wants to grow his roots somewhere.And if one is due for retirment,thats probably where one would want to settle down post retirment.....
I think SIA should show maturity(as it always has),retain this experience,and build on it for its productive future.After all this downturn is'nt going to last forever......
My two cents worth.

[411A]

I think SIA should show maturity(as it always has)...

It has....?
Sorry, you are sadly mistaken.
SQ has always had knee-jerk reactions to expat air crew continued employment, and always will.

It has happened many times before, and certainly will again.
In my particular case (a very long time ago) I decided to move on elsewhere before the ax fell, and the monetary rewards in doing so were quite good indeed.

SQ is simply a pit stop toward a very rewarding career.... elsewhere.:ok:

[jet grande]

Just a small reminder to MetroMan and Ndicho Moja: If it wasn't for the the "expensive expats" the locals in SIA would be on a pay scale similar to Garuda or Malaysia . You are only where you are today, thanks to the expats.....
You must be from managment or worse from ALPA-S...
the only lesson is that SIA is not a reliable employer .
To confirm this go back to what SIA did to some of the OBS pilots when it renewed their contracts for 3 years and 3 months after renewal retrenched them.

[winglet_fever]

As for the OBS pilots, have you heard about the payout SIA gave? Which other company in the world would do that?

Great to list facts, but stay on the line.

[southernmtn]

It is obvious jg has an attitude problem.

[Sonic69]

IMHO, Metro man and Ndicho Moja got it right. The only reason expat contracts exist is for temporary requirements. Contract renewal is not an obligation, if the company continues to require your services, they will offer a new contract, up to you to accept.

I think arguments along the lines of "if it wasn't for expat pilots.........." shows immaturity. You were contracted for a job, you did the job well, thank you very much. Here's your pay according to what we agreed in the contract. Unfortunately, we will not be requiring your services any longer and therefore will not be offering you a new contract when the current one expires. We hope you had a pleasant stay and wish you all the best in your future endeavors.

Nobody got stiffed. What's there to gripe about?

[etops777]

Some just never realised that they were only providing the service as a "contractor".

[perantau]

Not just SIA - if it really came to the crunch, and some have to be made redundant, who should go first? End-of-term contractors or those on local terms?

[jet grande]

All of above arguments just validates the original posting: SIA is not a safe bet for expats.
I am sure that all the expats in SIA are looking at these retrenchments and evaluating their future options. Merit or loyalty play no part whatsoever on their future prospects in SIA . Just need to be a local to qualify for job security !

[on_the_right]

jet_grande,
well yes, glad the basics of contract work have finally struck you !

[James' Bro]

All of above arguments just validates the original posting: SIA is not a safe bet for expats.

Jet Grande,

Why are you here in the first place? No job in your motherland?
..and why are you pissing and mourning when your contract is up? again no job in your motherland ?

Get real !:*

[Flaperon777]

Hey Bro,
No need to get personal here......:=.
Lets stick to the topic at hand shall we.......

[etops777]

One should understand the principles of a contract job.

[rdr]

Too many of you big talkers in SQ.
When SARS hit, you shat in your pants till 16 locals walked out.
They slapped the old man and a few of his imbeciles in their face and kept their honour.
Then when it came to the R Goh fiasco, again all shat another time in their pants and waited for it to pass.
It appears that now, another round of bravado, and, another round of ****ting in your pants.
Look, cut the crap and get real. Its every man for himself.

[B747-800]

last week a mate of mine got from SQ his new contract proposal as expat and to his surprise all expat benefits (housing, schooling, home leave etc.) had been removed and the proposed contract was the same as the local pilots are getting.

so the rumors are true: get the fat of the expats!

[777heavy]

Every man for himself eh rdr? You sound like a real team player. Surely you are not a pilot? God help us all if you are. You need an attitude change, I only wish I knew who you were so I could give you one:ugh:

[winglet_fever]

seems like j_d still dont get it. just walk into HR and say you want to be on local terms and you will be moved a bit further from the chopping board.

as for rdr, just just say his history of posts as been "interesting".

[Hey Driver]

Metro Man If you want a secure job with SIA, take local terms.How can a three year "National Terms" contract give you better security than a 5 year contract?

winglet_fever As for the OBS pilots, have you heard about the payout SIA gave? Which other company in the world would do that?
A company that, at the time, was looking for 100 new expats.

Sonic69 I think arguments along the lines of "if it wasn't for expat pilots.........." shows immaturity.
The managenents argument for no pay increase in the latest CA (pay) negotiation was the the number on new expats willing to take the current conditions.

:ugh:

[Hey Driver]

747-800 last week a mate of mine got from SQ his new contract proposal as expat and to his surprise all expat benefits (housing, schooling, home leave etc.) had been removed and the proposed contract was the same as the local pilots are getting.

This would be the National Terms contract which should not be confused with local career employment terms. It's important to note that this is only a 3 year contract.

[Metro man]

A five year expat contract suits some people, eg late 50s retired from another airline and wants/needs to do a few more years before hanging up his wings and spending his days on the golf course. Or prehaps someone with a fixed term leave of absence and a job to go back to.

It is not suited to someone younger who wants to stay permanently without the risk of being laid of in downturns. For being expendable the expats got housing allowance, school fees and tickets home. Some may have enjoyed tax advantages by claiming non residence in Singapore.

For those with contracts not being renewed, work out how much more you got compared to local terms during your time with SIA. Prehaps it was worth it to you, prehaps not.

EK and others in the sand pit are still employing. EK do a nice package with housing, school fees etc and its open ended. Trade off being having to live in Dubai. CX aren't too bad if you can take HKG.

BA, QF etc offer local terms only. Singapore is a developed country and a pleasant, (though expensive) place to live. SIA obviously feel that because of this they don't have to pay quite such a premium to attract pilots.

[rdr]

777heavy, bro


try to be constructive. its an old trick to attack the person instead of addressing the facts, or providing solutions.
you probably will be the 1st one to **** in your pants and run to mama if your job is on the line, then we will ask you about teamwork.
a lot of these guys have families and aspirations just as any pilot has.
my advice to you is to go take a flying f... at the moon.

[parabellum]

I may be a bit out of date on this but previously the actual contract document had very little to say about housing, provident fund etc. as all that information was contained in separate documents, including any training bonds. The contract of employment was quite brief.
Could all be different now!

[Orangputi]

Hey Bro,

As SLF (who works for a foreign company in Singapore and chooses to fly SQ) I hope your not my pilot one day. What an attitude! You sir are a goose!

[Sky Dancer]

Hey Rdr,

You were spot on.I think the Raymond Goh episode was the best example of every man for himself.The old man and his cronnies kept tabs on Goh for months before they acted and when they did act everyone else were just mute spectators.The old man didn't really know the facts when he threw Goh out of the country.If every ball worthy man had stood by Goh then ,things would have been very different in SQ today.It's gonna be pretty hard to turn the tide now.:ok:.....who knows the old man must be keeping tabs on me right now...yikes:uhoh:

[parabellum]

"Locals will bear the brunt of the cutbacks"

Linksys - Your post suggests you are well informed and have some substantiated knowledge? The 'alternative option' for expat Captains is probably SQ Cargo? that or leave.

Where is the excess manpower? sounds as though it may be in the F/O and S/O area in which case yes, locals will bear the brunt of the cutbacks, if SQ are short of or even have the right number of captains they are hardly likely to get rid of them if they have a surplus of F and S/Os that are not yet qualified for upgrade are they? Any locals that are retrenched will have the right, in law, to be re-employed as soon as conditions improve.

Perhaps you could enlarge on your statement that the locals will be the ones to go?

[expat400]

No Parabellum, alternative options doesn't mean Cargo... it means Local terms.

Cargo is not renewing contracts either and layoffs are possible.

[Fly3]

I have spoken to two expats who are not having their contracts renewed and they were not offered any alternatives. Just a "thank you and goodbye".

[parabellum]

Yes, stupid me, I never thought of local terms:uhoh:

[BOOSTER FLY]

SIA CARGO..........

NEWS ARE NOT GOOD !!
:mad:

[ULH Extreme]

Spill the Cargo, pls Booster

[Sonic69]

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/353348-sia-cargo-voluntary-no-pay-leave.html

Check out this thread.

[sb737]

james bro, jg was here to teach you how to fly.:O

[echopapa]

No worries guys, here's job progression for those with enough left seat experience. Local terms though

opportunities (http://impact-sg.jobstreet.com/Jobs/jobdesc.asp?type=0&eid=9191&jid=2030607&did=796&its=0&src=8&itn=)

[thegypsy]

better for F/O's as all buses in Singapore are right hand drive!!

[load sheet]

Hey EP why don't you take this position, look like you are looking for bettter position.... all the best and Happy new year :yuk:

[jet grande]

To EP & the rest
Its all very easy and comfortable to be seating on the other side of the fence and telling others to go find a job somewhere else!! Would love to see your reaction if you were on this side.... Remember, your comfortable position is not only based on merit but on the simple nationality factor. In fact the latest spate of incidents or near accidents on the B777 show the true merit of promotion based on this criteria ...

[SG_Aviator]

Remember, your comfortable position is not only based on merit but on the simple nationality factor. In fact the latest spate of incidents or near accidents on the B777 show the true merit of promotion based on this criteria ...

Care to elaborate? It seems like you are leaning on the fact that locals are more accident prone? :sad:

[cpt777]

Well here we go again. If only I could, to share details of recent incidents or near accidents that you so claimed Jet Grande; was indeed commanded by expats. The simple truth is, a good international carrier like SIA would WANT to hire expats, constantly. But ONLY the good ones, and that I mean from the perspective of his work attitude and integrity. In case you have been too engulfed in your own ego all these while, we all know that even the most "ace" pilot, local or expat; HAD and WILL make mistakes. We just have to learn to manage them from day to day.Period.
Obviously, the sad news is, those of us who make perceivably unforgivable mistakes at this juncture of the world gloomy financial climate will most likely, and unfortunately factually in recent cases of expats involved in incidents; have their contract not renewed.
And not to forget those who have been utmost arrogant and disrespectful of your own company or your FOs, your days are numbered too as 4th floor (well probably I should say 2nd floor for now..) have been soliciting feedbacks to facilitate contract renewal process.
Last but not least.. Happy New Year and best wishes to all nonetheless.

[Flaperon777]

Arrogance and Disrespect for ones colleagues are two "virtues" that IMHO should automatically attract the strictest of penalties.
Not only does the perpetrator immidiately lose the 100% performance from the other half of the cockpit,but in one swift stroke he manages to lose 100% of the respect too that he might have managed to aquire! THIS one can ILL afford in today's 100% Pro CRM cockpits.And we all agree here don't we,that we can all do with ALL the help that we get these days.And one never knows which corner that help might come from.So why lose 50% of the manpower/brainpower in the cockpit in one swift act of foolishness.
Don't you think.....:ugh:
Remember,arrogance is a virtue......as long as nobody sees it!!
And always keep in mind,the mighty red oak too was once a seed like him.....
Cheers.Be humble be kind.

[flyingfrogman]

As I would like to apply with SIA, I read through all the threads here, picking up this one.

Well, how did things develop for expat conctract or expat local term pilots? Or how did things develop at all up to now within SIA? Any news?

On their homepage they give information about a bunch of new A330 arriving this year. I thought about they might be looking for any ready entry pilots and I would like to try my best.

They do not have any open career site besides they are offering an online application for cadets only. Guess they won't be happy about any oldfashioned paper application... Who is doing the recruitment? What would be in any case the condition with local terms over there?

Thanks for any information and take care!

[parabellum]

SIA are cancelling 214 flights due to over capacity. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

[B737NG]

Maybe SQ gets you local terms but other Airlines avoid that on purpose. Expats can only be hired thru a Agency on a 2 to 5 year term. Then it is soley to them to renew-etxend as they like rather then need it.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

[cpt777]

flyingfrogman
Sorry to share the bad news but seems like the company has decided to convert excess 777 drivers to the 330. Presently stage 1 is in progress by seeking of volunteers. Chances of DEC are even more remote as more Expats are released gradually in the coming months.
The situation is actually not all that bad by most international yardstick for airlines' load factor performance. But for SIA, the bean counters love to break glass for emergency the instance they find that the chart started to plot downwards. Well of course this conservative attitude will ensure that the company does ride out the present financial storm nicely, I would presume.
If I may suggest, for the time being; perhaps Qatari and Korean are viable alternatives to consider if you're pressed to move. All the best in any case, whichever your move that might be.

[sia sniffer]

Hmm, 15 years on, and the sh1t still sticks to the expats in SQ. Been there, done that, and took a long time to wash off.

Of course, it still took 2 singaporeans to manage to have a VERY serious GPWS incident at DAC recently, with a MSA of only 2000', how could they?!. Some things will NEVER change.

Thinking about it, I will post the gory details about this incident in a separate post. When I can be bothered.

My ears are still close to the ground.

[Chambudzi]

I don't know anything about the DAC incident but would love to hear about it SIA sniffer. I was there at 10pm local time last night and can see how easily there could be a tragedy there anytime soon. Controllers who mumble, get short tempered when they are missunderstood and who persistently clip their transmissions are a part of the problem. Their VHF range does not cover their boundaries. Then there was the STAR - they call it a VOR, ILS but the ILS part cant be guaranteed because the DAC beacon and associated DME is dicky. The weather was foggy with RVR 700 mtrs, they have NO RADAR so you need to call them every minute or so to tell them what progress you are making with the decent to 2000 ft. Tie that in with a thick accent, numerous stepped on transmissions, a mouth full of betal nut and you have a nice recipe for trouble. It is a most uncomfortable arrival into a black hole onto a very rough runway with hardly visible markings and signage.
Some may say that is what we are paid for but it doesnt need to be like that so I am not surprised to hear there has been a recent incident with more to come undoubtably.

[Flaperon777]

Well said Chambudzi,
Could'nt have put it in better myself..! Wholeheartedly agree with you.....

[sia sniffer]

Tie that in with a thick accent, numerous stepped on transmissions, a mouth full of betal nut and you have a nice recipe
Sounds like any normal day on Changi Tower :}

[Chambudzi]

Come on Sniffer- you are better than that- you sound like a very sore headed pain in the butt, angry old man. There is no betal nut in Singapore and Changi ATC is a 1000% better than DAC. Try to be fair and let us know what happened in DAC with an aire of dignity

[parabellum]

Don't expect to see Sniffer anytime soon, read his history. Famous for rolling in the hand grenade and then buggering off.

[VT-ASM]

Sorry if my post is a bit outta track, But I think SIA is a company that needs to be taught what commitment and maturity is.....
One fine morning you see SIA posting adverts for cadet pilot recruitment for Indian nationals in leading newspapers in the country i.e. India. They then have a handful of starry eyed wannabes seeing SIA dreams.
And all this is happening even as SIA is planning to ditch the expats...

Then after 2 months from the date of the adverts and a couple of assessments, they decide to scrap cadet pilot recruitments from India at all...

whack on the standing d!#k kinda thing.....

They did this in 2005 and they were at it again in 2008 end.....
Height of recklessness by SIA............

All this nonsense will only lead to bad PR for the company...


Peace to all...

[southernmtn]

"Sorry if my post is a bit outta track, But I think SIA is a company that needs to be taught what commitment and maturity is....."

...then, L E A V E, go away and don't ever come back!


"They did this in 2005 and they were at it again in 2008 end.....
Height of recklessness by SIA............

All this nonsense will only lead to bad PR for the company..."

...Then, don't come!

It's all very simple. If you're not happy with an "immature" company and wants to teach it a lesson in commitment, I dare all you people to leave. If you think it is "immature" and owes ALL it's safety to the "clever" expats, then just leave.

[flyingfrogman]

Yes, it is not nice, for sure.
And I can understand that expat pilots who were doing a good job and built up a kind of life there are quite upset about this. As well as cadets who were lucky to join and then sent home again.

To be honest: This happens in a lot of well-reputated companies all around the world when times become more difficult.

Actually no-one can tell a company how to manage their business. You can just take it or leave it, most of the time as expat pilot or cadet pilot you have no or a very little choice.

I am not happy with it as well.

[B747-800]

every airline (except maybe one over in the philippines) is in the business of earning money. we as cockpit crew are second in line - after the cabin - for an early termination of contract or a none renewal of our contracts.

times are hard and will get harder especially for us expats. soon will have the airports again plastered with cockpit crews who are taking on any job just earn a few bucks. reality is catching up with us.

[jacjetlag]

It's the free market and they ARE businessmen.

Great when it is working for you , and now? Not so much. A live by the sword , die by the sword thing.

I wish you all the best and good luck. There will be better times ahead.

[422]

Boys + Girls,

I think "VT-ASM" got the msg.

This is typical 'Idol' mannerism.
If one gets a 'yellow-paper', all sing and praises.
If no 'yellow-paper', all curse and 'middle-finger' pointing.

Let him be 'lah'.
I'd like to wish all those who are already in the 'meat-grinder' ,
best of luck. :ok:

[etops777]

VT ASM...

Speaking of inmature!

Just tell us how you would run a better airline?
tell us how competent are you in running a business(any)?
tell us which airlines out there that's not screwing its staffs?


good luck to all the expats that are affected by this downturn.

keep your spirit up...

[Phantom Driver]

Chambudzi-

they call it a VOR, ILS but the ILS part cant be guaranteed because the DAC beacon and associated DME is dicky. The weather was foggy with RVR 700 mtrs, they have NO RADAR so you need to call them every minute or so to tell them what progress you are making with the decent to 2000 ft.


This does NOT sound good. Haven't been to DAC in a long while, and even then it used to be a daylight operation . SQ SOP's currently advise autoland in such poor vis conditions, but if it is not possible, what is the alternative? Same with BLR (no autolands permitted due 3.4 degree ILS-although I must admit that when you look at the PAPIs on finals 09, whilst on the glideslope,something in the calibration set up doesn't seem to add up...).

Given the (occasional) lack of accurate reporting from the tower of actual prevailing wx conditions at these places, then it seems like there's trouble brewing. Mind you, some of the guys in US (ANC) aren't much better. But at least there, the ILS works well.

All slightly off-topic maybe, but in the current climate, we can't afford to have such distractions hanging over our heads.

[a345xxx]

QR is having a recruitment dive in Singapore, you guys should check it out!:ok:

[Phantom Driver]

Recruitment "dive"?! Where?When? Their website says nothing going on till mid 2009 (maybe).

[CARGOJOCK]

It Is On By Appointment 3rd,4th 5th & 6th february.

7th february Only Walk-in.

At The
Marina Mandarin Singapore,
Vanda 1,level 6
6, Raffles Boulevard,marina Square,singapore 039594

See Ya There!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gb777]

Thanks Jock!!

[Chambudzi]

With any luck CARGOJOCK will be offered a job, he will take the offer and we will be rid of him forever. Then he can start a moaning fest at QR:D:D

[Left Coaster]

And won't he just LOVE Doha...!!!:p

[parabellum]

If CARGOJOCK has a problem with Singaporeans I can just imagine how he will get on, (or otherwise), with the Qataris!:}

[Flaperon777]

Wholeheartedly agree with chambudzi and Lc.
Biggest mistake an aviator could make would be to join QR.Been there done that......and still got the scars to prove it.....:{:{........:yuk::yuk:....!!

[Blacksteel7]

"SIA DRIVERS"! We are waiting for you in DOHA :} :E

[leewan]

First of all, try to understand the mechanics of being on an expat term. The upsides are that your pay is much higher compared to those on local terms. Downside is that there is no job security as the company views you as a removable commodity. Expats in any company offer the company a sort of flexibility to get rid of during bad times.Not much compensation to pay compared to those on local terms.
If u r not happy, simply give up ur native citizenship and apply for a Singapore passport and come in on local terms.Singapore immigration would be more than happy to offer you one. Don't whine abt it. If a local pilot was asked to leave over an expat with all things being equal, there will be a huge big political turmoil. It applies to any industry.
And the 777 coming close to 500ft ASL happened in LHE. Unless this is another new one. It happened bcos of incorrect calculation of the airports elevation.
And abt the QR recruitment, I've seen alot of ex SQ and MH pilots flying for QR and EK and they say it's much better compared to SQ in terms of $alary and benefits. But they say they still miss SQ for it's camaraderie among it's stuff. I've even seen a SQ pilot in CI.

[a345xxx]

Was he an expat in SQ or on local terms?

[fatbus]

There's more to the SQ package than what you read on their site, I dont remember the details

[a345xxx]

The SQ expat package is among the best bar none. I know I still have friends over there. The difference between local and expat is between 25% - 40% depending when you joined, if you have children in school and so on.

[ULH Extreme]

You speak with forked tongue,don't spread crap. You are not here, locals earn same salary. With both schooling andhouse allounce an expat takes home more, but after he pays the excess on both, he's a loser. A Sing local also get other extras which brings him up to par with expats. He sends his kids to local and no rent, he owns his million $ house. I could go on and on but ............................

[kk pilot]

Agree. It's not what you make, it's what you keep

[southernmtn]

"You speak with forked tongue,don't spread crap. You are not here, locals earn same salary. With both schooling andhouse allounce an expat takes home more, but after he pays the excess on both, he's a loser. A Sing local also get other extras which brings him up to par with expats. He sends his kids to local and no rent, he owns his million $ house. I could go on and on but ............................"

ULH,
It is true that the local and the expat get the same Basic Pay, Out-of-Base Allowance and Productivity Allowance. What are the "other extras" that the local gets that the foreigner doesn't? Must be great to be a local or dumb to be an expat!

The local "sends his kids to local". Why don't you do the same?

The local who doesn't pay rent are the few who stay with parents or some relative. How do you think they get to own their "million $ house"?:ugh: I know of very few who inherit million $ houses.

Perhaps you should "go on and on" and tell us about that SGD10,000 that the expat gets for every year of service on completion of his contract.

I think you have an Ultra Extremely bad attitude; and it is people like you who make the expats hated by the locals. What you have conveyed makes the expats look stupid for not being on local terms, for they miss out on the extras, cheap schooling, free rent; and they get to own a "million $ house".

Now who has a forked tongue; or is it selective amnesia?

[Left Coaster]

Not to mention that every "extra" penny is taxed...not a huge rate but taxed all the same. Can anyone actually tell us what the expat gets for those taxes? Anyone?...

[sia sniffer]

There is one simple division in SIA, Singaporean and none Singaporean( deemed "others" who get a F.I.N number). All none Singaporeans are then graded in to PR and none PR. These are then further graded into compliant, none compliant and finally Malaysian. Malaysians who dont apply for full citezenship are truly at the bottom of the bucket.

As for errr, caucasian expats (the whiteys), they are graded into compliant and none compliant. As in SARS, expect the none compliant guys (ie those who take extra fuel or dont attend fleet meetings or forget to address all local captains as "CAPTAIN" etc) to be first to not be renewed.

I know of one B777 white training captain who has not been "let Go Lah".

As for the locals, they of course achieve very high standards in their base checks, and therefore are deemed to be more meritoricious than a similar positioned expat, and therefore untouchable.

Yes, there is a DAC incident, so that makes 2 GPWS violations of late. Go Figure. Latest cullings in the expat ranks to be 132 from the LHS.

How is that seniority system in SQ :E. Dont expect ANYTHING if you are on contract.

[leewan]

They actually have your nationality on the front of your staff pass along with your name so that ppl no where u are in the "ranking system" along wif ur bar. ;) SQ is actually run more like a militiary organization rather than a commercial organization. This not only applies to inside the flight deck but permeates to every corner of the company. To understand SQ, you have to get to know Singapore as a country as both of them operate in the same way.

[malaysiacadet]

erm, so where do malaysians(with PR) stand on the list? bottom? or above all others non singaporeans(including fellow m'sian without pr)?

[leewan]

They actually have your nationality on the front of your staff pass along with your name so that ppl no where u are in the "ranking system" along wif ur bar. ;) SQ is actually run more like a militiary organization rather than a commercial organization. This not only applies to inside the flight deck but permeates to every corner of the company. To understand SQ, you have to get to know Singapore as a country as both of them operate in the same way.

[millerscourt]

leewan

you are talking rubbish. Yes SQ catapulted two Generals ex Airforce into the company when I was there after the genius who paid £625 million Stg for 49% of Virgin Atlantic left to join a Singapore Bank ( DBS i think?) but never did I personally find it run in the way you describe.

malaysiacadet Malaysians with PR if they behave themselves are OK but if they get involved with Alpha-S and upset the MM then as a certain B744 Captain found he was persona non grata and quickly was deported to Perth.

[rdr]

millerscourt
malaysiacadet Malaysians with PR if they behave themselves are OK but if they get involved with Alpha-S and upset the MM then as a certain B744 Captain found he was persona non grata and quickly was deported to Perth.

you are dead right, its not a military establishment, its more like a dictatorship that you have described.

[Left Coaster]

Seriously true! do NOT p**s off the "Union"... they eat their dead! I did and it was comedic to watch the sputtering and posturing and the grilling I got was beyond funny!

[CDRW]

If an expatriate captain was on the Lhe incident, how many of you would think that he would have kept his job. Let alone his command!! I think alot of non SQ don't really know what happened for 35secs at 200 - 300 ft.

a345xx - your statement of difference from local to expat being 25-40% is utter bollocks. The only significant addition is the housing allowance. The new system pays a housing allowance regardless if you use it. Schooling allowance is to pay, then claim. Educate your kids in local school for $200 a year and you claim $200. Send them to the American, Canadian or Tanglin and you pay far more than you can claim. Maybe some expats want there children educated in local schools, maybe not.

The 10k a year, to me, is for the local CPF.

[a345xxx]

Hey guys, didn't mean to hit a nerve! You are right I am not in SIA.
However if the expat terms are so similar to the local terms why not just give it up and stay with SIA?

Safe Flying!

[CARGOJOCK]

SIA is supposed to have lost US$250m but is still in profit a drop of 43% as per bloomberg.and a further US$ 240 due fuel hedging.

well they have also forced given SIA CARGO there BCF and SIA CARGO has parked there dedicated freighters in the jungle,and we cargo lads have to go on no pay leave.

cargo also has paid for this BCF aircraft, a price of a new 747 and paid a US$80 fine in the USA for price fixing.

the court case is scheduled for the 12th february in australia for price fixing in that part of the world.

[Chambudzi]

"cargo also has paid for this BCF aircraft, a price of a new 747 and paid a US$80 fine in the USA for price fixing."

Above is an example of a certain SIA cargo pilot's education level.
He assumes everyone knows what on earth a BCF is and I would happily pay the miserly US$80 fine myself if that is what the fine was.
This guy, CARGOJOCK, thinks the management in SIA are far more dumb than himself. I guess even clowns are allowed to post here.

[CDRW]

a345xx - thats' a good point - I must admit that I never thought that joining on local terms was an option for an expatriate, and I would hazard a guess, that in the way past, the financial gap from expat to local was greater. But since the removal of the CPF and SPF ( I think that was the company provident fund) in the expat package the gap has narrowed considerably. I still do not know if one has the "option" to join on local terms.

Chimbudzi - I think you going to have Cargojocks frothing at the mouth in flabbergasted disbelief - good for you to say it!!!

[CARGOJOCK]

ok wise guy when you are in the industry and you do not know what "BCF" MEANS IT SHOWS YOU ARE TYPICAL SINGAPOREAN LA.why not you robots are abbreviation wizards

as for the US$ 80 yes i did miss out on a "m" after the figure, once again a typical singaporean .....cannot figure it la

dumb **** la

[parabellum]

BCF is a fire extinguisher! I have been in the industry nearly forty years and I have never come across 'BCF' in any other form before.

[FMGCS]

Boeing: First 747-400 Boeing Converted Freighter Takes Flight (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/news/2005/q4/nr_051005h.html)

"Boeing Converted Freighter"

Cheers.
:)

[Chambudzi]

So here he goes again with his raw racism towards his employers.
Firstly I am not a Singaporean but your need to refer to the people you work for as "dumb ****s", "robots" and last time "the chopstix clan" show precisely why I take issue with you. Since you mention it, I would just love to hear what your description of a "typical Singaporean" is and you are probably stupid enough to post it here.
I figuered you meant to place an "M" with your 80 but I made my point because all of your posts are poorly written, lack adult logic and have always come across with an arrogance as if you were God's gift to aviation.
You are so lacking in education, you actually believe that you are anonymous on this web site. Believe me your IT savvy employers know exactly who you are and have done for some time. Your contract will be up in the forseeable future and you can probably guarantee you will be 'on your bike' sunshine. Nice time to be joining the so called "70%"

I wont be loosing sleep when you are sent on your no paid leave, guys like you deserve no better. Its your compatriots I feel sorry for.

I have heard enough garbage from CARGOJOCK now so I have decided to make it my mission from now on to take issue with him. Anymore dumb, biased, angry, ignorant posts from him will get a reaction from me and I feel it will be like a cat playing with a rather dim mouse

Thanks CDRW for spelling my name more correctly than I do. Your Shona is better than mine.

Thanks Parabellum for letting us know what BCF really stands for. Our 'in house tame clown', CARGOJOCK, thinks it is something else

[southernmtn]

CargoJerk, you think a typical Singaporean does not know what a BCF is? You actually do not realise that there are more Singaporeans who have flown the BCF than the pilots in SIA Cargo - I say this as a fact and not to discredit the good guys in SIAC.

What do you mean by this line (it's not even a proper sentence), "why not you robots are abbreviation wizards"? What you write comfirms what Chambudzi thinks of your lack of education. It's difficult to try and figure what you are trying to convey; and it makes me wonder how you managed to get a Level 6 for your English in aviation. I think you should be assessed for your grasp of English every year during your Line Check - and that's being kind; because you do not deserve to be rated at all as capable of using English in R/T.

You also regard a typical Singaporean as one who cannot figure out if there's a million or there isn't. Singapore is a financial centre, and I don't have to say any more whether a typical S'porean knows about the millions or not. I suppose you are ignorant of this. You should change your Location from "Singapore" to "Under a coconut shell". That's how the Malays would describe you; as someone who lives in his own world and does not know what is going on around him. You don't even realise that Chambudzi is being sarcastic about your missing "million". Obviously, he is not so dumb as to be unable to figure it out.

Duh......:ugh:

[millerscourt]

When referring to extinguishers then BCF means that type.


When referring to B744 Freighters then if you google BCF Freighters it tells you it is Boeing Converted Freighters. Clearly I would have thought in the context that CARGOJOCK mentioned it was the latter.Certainly those in SQ Cargo should know that as nobody was talking about extinguishers?

When in doubt google it:{

Whilst having no time for some of CJ's remarks Chambudzi, clearly English is not CJ's first language so it is unfair to pick him up on grammar etc. By all means have a go at the content of his posts. I guess that English is NOT your first language either as in your last post there are a huge number of basic spelling and punctuation errors! I make no claim to be perfect in that area which is why I never pick on people for it unless someone else commits similar errors and yet has a go at others for the same thing.

[winglet_fever]

*yawnz..

cj - remember this old saying. do what the Romans do. if Singaporeans like to use "la" and you have DECIDED to join a culture that uses "la", live with it LA. Do i need to explain it clearer? don't be such s.t.e.r.e.o.t.y.p.e. an elephant in a swamp of rats does have a cause for concern.

[Chambudzi]

What would we do without the oh so parental Millerscourt.
I went to bed having baited my hook for the small minded clown CARGOJOCK and instead of bringin him in - screaming and yelling like the child he is - I get the miserably minded little Millerscourt. So be it.
Thank you for your school masters report on my "huge number" of grammatical and spelling mistakes short arse but I think you should perhaps read my posts more carefully. If you had you would realise my arguement with the clown is nothing to do with spelling or grammar. He takes no care in the language of his posts, with how he writes them and what he says, so now he has a fight on his hands that he has run away from like a coward.
Why dont you rather comment on CARGOJOCK'S posts millerscourt. You know they are objectionable but I guess they serve your anti SIA agenda. Everything against SIA is good for you isnt it Millerscourt. Afterall, he says the angry things you arnt dim enough to say but you love egging him on hence your support for him.
The big picture truth is SIA rewarded you with a well paid job for around 15 years with 3 aircraft types you could never have flown in your previous outfit. You served your mini career here angrily with your cup half empty and then left in a huff. What an absolute waste of a flying life.

Thanks for your support southermtn, you hit the nail on the head about CARGOJOCK . He has persistantly called us names like "mainline rats" and far worse so from now on every post I make about him will include the perfectly appropriate word "clown". I am going to lower myself to his level of name calling and I suggest everyone does the same because I know it gets under his skin.

winglet- CJ is not akin to an elephant among rats, more likely an immature, low IQ mouse among a thousand wiley cats.

[millerscourt]

Chimpbudzi

What a petulant little brat you are. If you understood English you will see that I said I had no time for some of CJ's remarks so go back and suck on your toy you naughty little boy.:{

[fatbus]

Here's a ? So how many Expats did not get renewed? When does SQ plan more hiring on all fleets? Those Expats that do not get renewed, will they be offered contracts at a later date or did SQ use this as a way to rid themselves of some dead wood? Any profit share or is it really that bad?

EK is making money but nowhere near the amount to pay a bonus.

[O'Neill No6]

You guys simply disgust me!

[Flaperon777]

Chambudzi,
Well said bro,well said.Three quarters of the forum will back u to the hilt when u decide to give Cj and his '6 degrees south of stupid' IQ'd ninja turtle malay with british accent right hand man MillerC an arse whippin'......!!
The guy deserves a worse lashing than Cj for his anti-SIA sentiment and propoganda.Not that anyone in his/her right mind would believe a word of that put on 'queen's english' that he tries oh sooo desperately to imitate,but nevertheless.His frustration is so prominent and obvious.Exasperating and a wannabe is all I can say for this fool in pimp's clothing.....:mad:
'nuff said........:cool:

[4PW's]

After seven months of medical leave, I'm returning to work in a week. I remain unapologetically and eternally grateful to my employer, who faithfully kept to the conditions of medical leave we're so lucky to be employed under.

Apart from the usual refresher-study of ops manuals, I thought I'd catch up on what's going on, or not going on. So I tried this thread. What an eye opener. Is this the morale I'm returning to? Are you guys with SQ/SQC?

If so, please allow me to gently encourage you to seek help, fast. Or risk wasting the first day of the rest of your life. Your choice. Times are tough, that much is true. And there are some who aren't able to deal with this at all.

For the passing, passive reader, don't let this thread deter you from higher objectives, whatever they may be. On that note, you might consider closing this thread and not revisiting it; standing up and leaving the computer; making a point of finding someone you are having trouble with, and share a laugh together.

In either case, have a great day, and good luck enjoying the rest of your life.

:)

[Chambudzi]

Thanks Flaperon. I am with you and as you say, so are most readers of this thread but our in house clown CJ refuses to come out from beneath his coconut shell to give us another little 'amok'. We are left here with his venal side kick Millerscourt who has nothing to complain about but punctuation.
I actually flew with Millerscourt once, fortunately only once and he can be perfectly described as "OVERLY AWARE OF HIS COMMAND'. He buzzed himself up to one of the higher rungs on the left seat so that he could see over the dash and ran a chilly cockpit.
Reserve the word petulant for yourself Millerscourt and since you are good at googling try out 'venal', it describes you to a T.

[Chambudzi]

4PW
Welcome back and glad to hear you are on the mend.
Were you not the previous policeman on this web site. If you were surely you remember having to remove some of CARGOJOCKs vile. He has reigned over this website with his vitriol for 4 years since he joined SIA Cargo and no one has really taken him to task. He persitantly spews anti SIA, anti SIA Cargo, anti management, anti Singaporean, anti Chinese, anti mainline compatriot poison and has been unchecked. I am sick of his blatant racism and that is why this thread has deteriorated so much to its present depths.
His side kick Millerscourt has also been persistant in his unreasonably anti SIA rants. Despite at this late stage claiming to have no time for CARGOJOCKS postings he has never once opposed anything CARGOJOCK says here.
The new policeman of this site has kindly allowed this rather distasteful thread to run its course and it has probably reached its end as CARGOJOCK seems to have fled to the hills and Millerscourt has absolutely nothing worthwhile to say.

[Left Coaster]

Hey Chambudzi...you and i have met! To reply to your CJ posts...This joker has been taken to task and some of his more vitriolic posts have been taken down, he still makes it past the mods once in a while though... I agree with you that he has taken a few posts way past the pionts where it contains any sort of information valuable to those who look...but it's a free world I'm afraid. Like you said earlier though, he will be caught out and when the time comes most likely will need to find new employment...didn't the spanish say that "Revenge is dish best served cold"... so tranquillo senor!:} Cheers
and fly safe!

[ArkPilot]

Naw, I think that was Quentin Tarantino in Kill Bill 2:cool:

[a345xxx]

No it was from Star Trek.. the Klingons coined that one.:)

[Chambudzi]

Hi Left Coaster. I remember our flight together well and hope to do it again sometime. One never knows and it was fun.
Your posts have always been positive and helpful keep it up Pal.
And yes -- :D tranquillo senor:D

[jet grande]

Back to the original posting . The figure of 70% of expat contracts not being renewed has been revised to almost 100% . The latest batch of expats to be shown the door have been told by SIA that until further notice almost 100% of the expat contracts coming up for renewal will not be extended. What is shameful is that this latest batch has only been informed with just 1 month left on their present contract. SIA has left to the last moment to give them the terrible news. What a disgraceful outfit !
If you are an expat in SIA your days are numbered !! Never mind what the locals have been posting here, the only true fact is that SIA has ceased to be a reliable employer for an expat . All the expats without exception should really think and determine what are their best options under the current circumstances.

[parabellum]

jet grande - If SIA have given the pilots one months physical notice but three month pay then they have done nothing wrong, maybe you would like to check it out? Out of interest, do you or have you ever worked for SIA? (or were you rejected?).

[CDRW]

Jet Grande - are we just not seeing rather ugly side of being a contract employee?? I have asked who has actually not had their contracts renewed and no names have been offered - just that rumour of none!! I may be a bit behind on the hot gossip, as I been on leave !! Anyone got any more facts?

Chambudzi - go for it with CJ!

[fatbus]

The key to any contract job is dont plan to be renewed and you wont be disappointed or pissed off

[Mack Number]

Whale Oil Beef Hooked. Say as quickly as possible :uhoh:.

Sums up my chances of being renewed here at SQ. Announcement today a further 11% capacity reduction. Going to park 17 aircraft (didn't specify which type (s)).

[kk pilot]

11% cut is not surprising but I'll wait until it's on paper

Question - any rumors or hints of a NPL or a no-obligation resignation deal coming for mainline that would mirror the cargo offer?

[Merlinrabbi]

kk,

here is the news on paper.

Retrenchment 'a last resort': S'pore Airlines (http://www.asiaone.com/Travel/News/Story/A1Story20090216-122306.html)

[sia sniffer]

Fatbus, with todays announcment of 17 aircraft to be removed from active service this year, how many crews is this, 200 pilots? Will SQ overman to keep the gravey train on its rails?

So I believe you can increase the number of expats to be dismissed, from the 130 or so I mentioned before.

Will a local (or Malaysian) more likely to lose his job than an expat, if expat contracts carry punitive damages if cancelled?

The irony would be laying of the lowly Singaporean, and having to continue to pay the fat cat expats,:E

[SE7EN]

Now I've heard it all!:rolleyes:

[southernmtn]

The local (be he Malaysian or "the lowly Singaporean") and the expat carry the same "punitive damages" for premature departure. It is just the cost of the type conversion.

There are very few straws to clutch at; virtually none.

[winglet_fever]

seems like no one is doing the math. SIA might be parking 17 air crafts but how many brand new 380 and 300ER have they received in 2008?

[CDRW]

winglet - good point - and how many A330's are they getting in the next month or so!!

Hazard a guess that the aircraft to be parked will be a few 744's and a few of the more tired 777's. Lets not forget that the crew compliment is a captain and a FO, so by all accounts they are going to be way overstaffed on FO's in the near future, if sniffer is on target.

Contract renewals for expats in the next 6 months will be interesting.

[sia sniffer]

Dont get killed in the stampede to brown nose on the 4th floor..Its a sad fact that the SQ expats will loose any dignity they may have left in order to preserve number 1.
sycophantic behavior will be the norm. Watch the expat moaners attendances balloon at the next 777 fleet meeting:yuk:

[4PW's]

Per CDRW's post, we have 14 B744 passenger airframes, all of which were to be retired by 2011.

Chew Choon Seng announced 17 airframes will be retired in the coming period from April '08 to March '09.

It may be highly likely that 14 of the 17 will be B744 passenger airframes, leaving three additional airframes to park; probably the older B777's.

Not good for B744 Mailine expats, or for B777 expats with contracts pending that may not be renewed.

B744 Mainline locals will not be retrenched. They will go to the new planes on the way.

This is just my two cents...

For what it's worth, there's a ray of sunshine in every cloud. I don't see it yet, but it's there. Good luck in pulling a positive out of this difficult situ.

[CDRW]

Mujulah - you really got to let your head clear after smoking the stuff - then there is an element of doubt as to your sanity - this way there is none.

[jet grande]

Hey Parabellum ; wouldn't you like to know…
But anyway, to satisfy your curiosity I think we both plodded the sandpit at GF ….LOL
What I think is disgraceful is SIA leaving it to the last minute to tell the pilots that their contracts are not going to be extended, knowing full well that the chances of a successful rehiring are very slim in the present market conditions. These guys served SIA with the utmost loyalty and professionalism for many years. I think they deserved a better treatement.

[parabellum]

Depends how you look at it JG. They can't tell the pilots anything until the final decision has been made to reduce capacity and that has only been announced this week. That said, a good friend of mine who's contract is due for renewal, he hopes, has been well aware for some time that it might not happen and has been casting around to test the market.
Airlines are not set up to cater to expat pilots.

Well said CDRW, I gave up on an appropriate response to his/her ramblings!

[CDRW]

JetG and para - you both have good points - as I said before this is the downside of an expat contract. However I hear some of the contract pilots may preempt the strike and get employ elsewhere. Basically if your contract expires this year, 3 months before that day give yourself notice !!

Para - I see that the either the site modulators or the sniveling fool Mujalah have removed his post. I have a copy of it, if anyone interested!

[ULH Extreme]

The Meaning of Life will be handed down on Fri 20th at 1500. Best of luck everyone.

[jollyt]

Heard from a reliable source that those given notice of less than three months of non-renewal will be employed to the last day of contract but continue to be paid beyond the contract expiry, housing and education allowance included, until three months have elapsed from the time he was informed of his contract non-renewal.

[southernmtn]

The sooner folks stop clutching at straws and raising hopes, counting bodies and airframe numbers, the better off you will be. Do positive and proactive things for yourselves and about yourselves, instead of moaning and complaining about the Company, or comparing contracts to see who stays and who goes. Convert all that negative energy into something more useful and that can fetch some good results.

No one is going to teach you what to do. One thing you can do is to make yourself more desirable to the Company - make yourself more indispensable so that you will not be the first to go. There has been an increase in the "free labour movement" - more and more people are joning the various groups created to provide free service and expertise. Boot-licking is older than the oldest profession, and will make you stand out to all - that's all it does, obviously without foundation or value. Few will suggest to you what you should do; it is the survival of the fittest at a time like this.

Those who gripe about the company not giving them more notice about their concluding contracts are just moaners. They are so short sighted that they have stopped thinking. Even if the Company had given them 9 months notice prior to now, they would not have secured jobs. Even if they obtained an offer, it might have been reneged by now; or if they are new employees, they would be in a tenous position now being among the most junior in their new company that would most likely be reducing numbers.

Almost all airlines have stopped recruiting and are doing the opposite to reduce numbers. Those that are recruiting at a time like this were the last resorts of yesterday; and should be considered only if you cannot afford to be un-employed. I leave you to figure out why they were the last resorts.

Those who say that SIA is not a reliable employer for the expats and telling all the expats not to come in future, hoping that the Company will reconsider their present employment, are only wasting their time and effort. When better times come around and SIA starts recruiting foreign workers again, do you think people the world over will remember this? The fact is, there will be no lack of numbers, period.

Don't blame the Company or anyone else. Do yourself a favour, no one's going to help you, you just have to help yourself, that's all.

[CDRW]

Southernm.. somewhere in your ramblings is this line "make yourself more indispensable so that you will not be the first to go." Not sure if you are in the airline, but how the ef does one make themselves "indespensable" as an expat. Have you achieved this exulted status? Maybe your a LIP, a CRM facilitator, a brown nosing boot licking guy with the airline, but you sure aint "indispensable" to this airline. You might not be the first "to go" if your'e a 4th floor lurking, CRM spouting lizard, but you will be the second.

[ULH Extreme]

Wow Southern, You do have yourself ontop of a high hill over there on the East Coast.
I think you have never ever lost your job before, hence the ability to live in dreamland. Do you know what it's like to have 3mths notice to leave your job, leave the country, leave your friends,pack up the family and pets, move to another country or back to your homeland with no income. No i don't think so.
All the genuine expat posters on here who work for Sia, no matter what their views or expressions they hold, are a very worried lot at this time. Posting on here is maybe a release, while underwater they are, and maybe havebeen, looking elsewhere for along time.
Your lecture helps no one, just your own ego.
And by the way, if you were at yesterdays meeting, you would have heard the speech by a local sticking up for expats, which was applauded by all those present. So much for your statement, in a earlier post, that singaporeans hate expats.
See you on the 4th floor, when i get my marching orders.:mad:

[AiRBuS_380]

Hi Guys,

Just saw an adv on the Straits Times recruit section about Qatar Airways conducting walk-in interview for flight crew positions, in Singapore from the 2nd till the 6th of Mar 2009. Check it out.... and no harm trying to see for opportunities.

as stated in the previous postings from other members, its up to individual to seek for advancement rather then sitting and complaining about airlines. We must make it happen ourselves!

Cheers,

Great way to fly

[4PW's]

You sound pretty scared, Southern Mountain.

No shame there, but I think folks hold each other in higher regard if a little dignity is maintained.

Someone once said it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

SQ isn't asking anyone to live on their knees, but you appear to be.

Get up.

Face the music with dignity.

[GlueBall]

". . . Do yourself a favour, no one's going to help you, you just have to help yourself, that's all."

Especially in asia where labor laws are non existent, the expat lifestyle at any outfit anywhere can never be taken for granted. Contracts are just pacifiers, and expats are mere "guests" in a foreign country.

But gullible contractors with lofty expectations "trust" their contract and their foreign employer. They import high maintenance wives, kids and dogs; sign apt leases, buy furniture and put their kids in expensive private schools, as if there were some semblance of assured permanence.

I see guys blowing their hard earned cash on maintaining an elevated lifestyle, including frequent family travels to popular vacation hot spots, even as the world economy is spiraling down.

Many expats who work for a large established carrier somehow feel secure and insulated from the harsh global nightmare. And when suddenly the trap door opens: Boom. It's a personal cataclysmic event. No income. No immediate job prospects. Insufficient savings. No rights. Family upheaval in a foreign land.

It has been said before: Unless one is independently wealthy, any expat job is ok only if one is homeless, divorced with no kids. :ooh:

[kk pilot]

a bit extreme - if you fly for a living, you accept the risks associated with the job - we aren't the only professionals taking hits. Talked to anybody on wall street lately?.......

[422]

Looks like ALPA-S is fighting a loosing battle (won few).
Two other big Unions has signed a wage freeze in JAN-09 and ALPA-S has just been informed of the 'latest' development.

hah! Screwed over 'again' !

not looking too good over here too.
:(

btw: SI agreements with SIASU and AESU, they get 2.5% in 2009.
Only Pilots will get nothing in 2009. :ok:

[mates rates]

glueball has said it all.As an expat/contractor you are a licence and a suitcase to the company.You have to spend your time saving as much of your income as possible to be ready for a rainy day.If you decide to be an expat you take the job that pays the most money to get out of there as soon as you can.Having prioritised your reasons for being there you then try to make the most of the existance.

[zekeigo]

While the world is falling down in SQ, ALPS-S Directors are spending the weekend in Phuket…
It might be a good place to find ideas and solutions for our problems.
Wonder who is sponsoring this superfluous spree….
:=

[jollyt]

Is the world falling down on SQ? If it is, I dread to think what is to befall other carriers. Did not know alpas had directors. Some guys are going to Phuket but at their own expense.

[CDRW]

jollyt - to the SQ board, the world is falling down when they cannot beat the previous years profit!! The world has come to an end when there is a likelyhood of a loss!!

[southernmtn]

ULH, does it matter if I have never lost a job or have lost a job? Is that going to help you? Or can the local standing up for you help in any way? "No i don't think so." Moaning and crying that you have to leave your job and friends with such short notice and having to pack lock, stock and barrel to return home with no income, is wasting your energy. Sounds harsh? You'd better get used to it. It's a hard world out there; and nobody's going to help you but yourself; and only the fit will survive.

I have been through about 4 of such economic cycles affecting people like us in the front line; and this will not be the last. It looks like you are experiencing this for the first time as a foreign worker away from home and your ultra extreme attitude is not helping you to learn anything; and this BA of yours is probably to blame for your contract not being extended. If you don't already know it, a person with a bad attitude is very obvious to those around him and is known to his employers.

If you don't come away from this experience any wiser and more mature, then you will certainly see history repeating in your own life until you change your attitude.

[rdr]

southernmtn

in these times, its a risk to downsize others, no matter how correct you maybe.
its still early days in this type of economic downturn, so dont count your chickens just yet.
you may not have 16 locals or Ryan Goh to help you out in a few months.

[ULH Extreme]

Southern

You don't get it, do you. Your going higher up the mtn with your holier than thou attitude,giving us all another lecture which we don't need at this time in our lives.
With the way you put things, i don't think you are an expat on an expat contract, maybe on local terms. 4 economic recessions, that's only the last 11 yrs in SIA, so you are a new boy who has risen to fame and most likely a CRM nightmare poser.
Now I've just done to you what you did to me, not nice is it when someone badmouths you with no idea who you are.
So stop the lectures. I'd say most of us on this post were expats when you were in nappies, so lay off kid.

[CDRW]

So southernmtn - what counsel have you got for the 22 Australia based pilots who have just been terminated.??

Like to hear your thoughts!

[Flaperon777]

southernmtn,
In regards to your posts # 130 AND post # 137.........my good friend,I couldn't agree more......!!!! Hear hear. Kudos! :ok::ok::ok:.
Make yourself indispensable the best way you can and the company shall NOT dispense with you. It IS a buisness after all,and as in all buisnesses,the strongest (and sometimes luckier too) shall survive! Its all up to you,and only you, how strong you would like to make yourself. Alternate B......sit in a corner and sniffle on this forum.
IF my statments seem to appear inappropriate then the next time you're due for an upgrade,why don't you just let your competitor take the promotion,instead of giving him a fair fight and proving your worth to the company.Same principle aplies here.Its not rocket science.
As far as possible please keep seeing the glass half full rather than otherwise.Half empty's the easy way out for the weak man with a weaker head.
CDRW.....if you or any of your colleagues had been shortchanged supposedely by the company and had not been given "adequate notice",then they had their reasons! I am quite sure. Moreover,if you found yourself on the wrong end of the barrel,why didn't you say so when you were being given your walking papers.Rather than wimper away on this forum like a hyena with his tail in between his legs AFTER accepting your pink slip.Pun intended!
Address the issue when it was still on the table and you probably would have gotten an answer.Address it when its off the table and you probably won't even get sympathy on an anonymous forum.Besides all the bad karma you are emmitting.
Think about that.
Great post Southernmtn........:D

[zekeigo]

Southernmtn and Flaperon777,
What a duo you two form…
If you know how to keep the centerline and don’t do hard landings in first place this company wouldn’t need any expats, and it is not rocket science.
Just two scared Kiasu wannabes…
:bored:

[winglet_fever]

well, since you have gone this way...

Through my very short history in SQ, i've been scared s*** by the bounce induced by white boy on the left couple of times now.

Now, get back on the center line. We are humans.

[winglet_fever]

And by the way, expats has always been here to make up the numbers. Guess you haven't work out the fact that there's only 4 million people capable of saying "lah" fluently and a fleet of about 100 widebodies to mend.

[CDRW]

Flaperon777, a gloriously confusing missive, with lines being virtually cut and pasted from southernmtn's ramblings, however, your writings come through with this odd statement, "CDRW.....if you or any of your colleagues had been shortchanged supposedely by the company and had not been given "adequate notice",then they had their reasons! I am quite sure." So its quite OK not to be given "adequate notice"?? Let's get this strait. You get get your walking papers without " adequate notice" - you would address the issue there and then, as it's still on the table! How would you go about doing that? Take SIA to court? Well, the company had it's reasons, so why address it? Hyena and tail come to mind.

I cannot quite see your analogy of doing ones upgrade and having a "fair fight with your competitor". By competitor you mean another first officer, who has also been selected. By fair fight, you mean you got to beat the other chap, as there is only one slot. By giving your competitor a fair fight ( for ones command) the company will regard this act as a great form leadership and command potential. Luckily most of the hierarchy in the training and checking department can tell the difference between "rocket science" and bull****.

[422]

Keep it up, boys.

This is getting interesting.

Bear in mind, loser buys the beers at "Brewerks"
:ok:

[gengis]

Yep. Am waiting for the beers...

[ULH Extreme]

As I'm an expat on an expat contract looking down both barrels of the 4th floor, it would have to be 12-1500L, when the cost seems okay.
Those genius expats on local contracts[your next in the food chain] will want the 09-1200 morning tea session where we can be all told our faults in life.
See you all at the Mandarin next week.

[Flaperon777]

CDRW,
My post is self explanatory.Although what that term means to a person whose IQ i could trip over,is TOTALLY another story!
Maybe you should take some diction and/or grammar lessons before you post the next time.Straight is spelt 'straight' and not 'strait'.As in the kind of jacket people like you should be in.Maybe the grammar lessons would enable you to better understand my posts...:bored:.
Until then.....
ULH,
Whats at the Mandarin next week...?? Thanks in advance....:ok:.

[boeingdream787]

Hahahaha.....well said Flaperon.
Totally agree with you.What with CDRW and his ramblings this post's become a personal grudge fight.It's not always about you CDRW.Sometimes there are others who breathe too..:eek:
Now slide back into that hole you came from!
All beers on me this time.

[millerscourt]

Floppy777 You and Chumpbudzi are two of a kind in as much as you only seem capable of name calling and making offensive postings. In that respect you are no better than Cargojock.

By all means criticise and disagree with any postings that I and others make but once you lower yourself to the language of the gutter then it shows you up for what you are. Pig ignorant. (Oh God you have got me doing it now.:O)


PS

Before you have a go at CDRW's spelling I suggest you look at all your incorrect ones as follows from yesterday!

business not buisness

It's not its when short for it is

statement not statment

applies not aplies

supposedly not supposedely

emitting not emmitting

As I have mentioned I never bring up the subject of incorrect spellings as we can all have finger trouble hitting a key and a lot of people do not have English as their first language but when people like you dare to criticise
others and then also add in insults to boot then you deserve all you get.

Perhaps the threat of redundancy is getting to you and your friend the Chump making your behaviour irrational or have you both always been like that?


.

[Flaperon777]

Thanks MC for your corrections.
Now I wonder where all this venom comes from.Some other thread perhaps.
Nevertheless,I do know for a fact that your "Queen's 'enlish' dictum" comes from a much used off the stall translator off of the back alleys of Dhaka!! Please refrain from using foul words when you weren't even INTO the topic.Or so much as have a clue.I don't see anyone here who in as much as even wishes to relate to you.
Or do you want me to PM Chum again to give u a bottom whippin......lol. Again!!
So go run and pick up that soft ball game where you left off.Those teeny boppers are prolly waitin to bullrag u again tonite.....;) .
So much for your Anti SIA venom,which you so frequently spew around.Ain't gonna get u no place son.So watch it.We ALL have our POV's and yours just plain SUCKS! :yuk::yuk::yuk:
Off u go now boy.....

[millerscourt]

Floppy777 ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Oh dear me, puerile posts again.I guess it was too much to expect anything different.

[rdr]

FLAPERON 777

Nevertheless,I do know for a fact that your "Queen's 'enlish' dictum" comes from a much used off the stall translator off of the back alleys of Dhaka!!

Yes, quite unlike the back alleys of Geylang lah where the China prostitutes hangout and are giving the local women sleepless nights.

Btw, dont pride yourself with your level of "English," its a joke. So exchange notes and bring along a translator..... from Dhaka did you say?

[etops777]

Please continue this saga!!!:ok:

[a345xxx]

Contrary to popular belief I do sympathize with all the guys losing their jobs. I too had to move once and it was not a pleasant experience, but to all you guys who have not moved I know its unfamiliar territory but don't worry you will make it through.

To all of you who have only heard unpleasant things of QR its not that bad, trust me. There is no perfect employer and there is no perfect job but flying an AC is pretty close and the guys in QR will make you feel welcome.

Cheers!:ok:

[sia sniffer]

Looks like you boyz are working yourselves up into one helluva lather. SIA must be laughing all across their two faces.

Has anyone ever asked a singaporean what he thinks of expat contracts? I can assure you they are green with envy, and would stab you all in the back given a meeting in a dark room.

SIAs policy was to reduce the expat numbers to zero, due local recruitment.Still is, they say. How many of you will take local contracts like other expats from australia/NZ/UK? Ummm me thinks only now cos you looking at the sack. You were given the choice when you applied to take local terms with better job security. But as usual, greed got the better of you, as it does most the time.

So dont now go on your knees to SIA, they dont care, never have. You are there to keep the insurance premiums down, well some of you that is:D

[Majulah]

First of all I'd like to say to CDRW that I did not smoke anything. K?

Look expat guys, you DO have my sympathy. I know how it's like to loose that super-safe job. My airline got bust... I would be flying the 340-600 by now, but anyway... I know you don't care.

All I want to say is that you went for a golden contract with high risk, you took it (the contract, AND THE RISK). So now live with it.

In a few years time SIA will again hire Expat Commanders, wanna bet? Will you again be signing that contract? Will I? Will somebody else?

I can understand SQ wanting to go more local, it's Singapore Airlines after all, not Expat Airlines. Now, do they need your expertise? I don't know, I'm not there... I can't tell. All I know is that nowadays Airlines are ruled by beancounters (so is mine), and they do not care about expertise, gentlemen's agreements, code of honor, ore anything like that. We, the pilots, are just silly payroll numbers which they would like to get rid of if they could... But they can't, and they never will.

I'm not in SQ, but in my airline I AM the local, and believe me, I'd like to get rid of those overpaid, below-average-standard, bad-attitude, arrogantly-behaving, no-local-language-speaking pilots. I'm not saying that you guys are any of these, but please understand SQ's "locals first" policy.

No National Legacy Carrier in Europe hires Expat Captains. And I'm sure in your home countries the National Carriers do not as well.

So why should Singapore Airlines do so? Think about that.

Now, dear ang mo friends, bash my post. Lah.

[expat400]

Majulah

The expats are not overpaid. It's you who are underpaid.

[parabellum]

You are there to keep the insurance premiums down....


Total crap. Having worked in the aviation insurance market for a short while I can tell you that underwriters do not place what is called a "Pilot Warranty" on major carriers. A new Twin Otter operation, perhaps, but definitely not major airlines.

[Che Xindamail]

The expat vs local issue is touchy and highly prone to a narrowminded view of other cultures.

I'm an expat in an Asian carrier. I have flown with highly talented expats, but also some that had a tough time passing sim checks and subsequently failed their command assessment.

Likewise, I have flown with some local pilots who just didn't have the aptitude for managing the ever changing dynamics of an approach, and some who were real naturals who had no problems whatsoever passing a command check.

Interestingly, of the two most natural pilots I have flown with, one was a 55 year old expat, and the other a 25 year old local.

Judge people on a personal level. It makes life more interesting, and the job more fun.

Sorry, back to the thread.

[Flaperon777]

Majulah,
EVERY carrier I have worked with( And ALL were premium national carriers amongst the top four in the world today ),always HAVE and always WILL be hiring expats for basic survival and day to day operations.That is the norm and always will be. Basic numbers will dictate the existence of expats around the world AND in SIA too.If you are a pilot you are either a local or an expat.Anywhere in the world.No other kind la.Please remember I'm an expat in singapore but in my home country,I was doing the hiring OF the expats!
So you would be incorrect in suggesting that other National Carriers don't hire expats.You couldn't be more wrong.They SURVIVE on expats!
Thanks...

[Majulah]

So you would be incorrect in suggesting that other National Carriers don't hire expats.You couldn't be more wrong.They SURVIVE on expats!
Thanks...Flaperon777, I know what you mean. But just to prove that I also know what I'm talking about:

Lufthansa, Air France - KLM, British Airways, Iberia, Swiss, etc. That's all Airlines which offer lifelong careers in their home countries.

None of them have Expat Captains on special Expat Contracts.

You're talking about stuff like Emirates, Qatar, SIA, Gulf Air, Etihad etc.

It's not the same.

In my Airline we do have some Contractor Copilots in the Regional segment, and boy do we locals like the fact that they earn more then Copis on the mainline... If there are going to be retrenchments in our Airline, they will go first. Anything else would be just gross.

Just my 2 Cents.

[Flaperon777]

I guess that makes sense.Offering lifelong careers to an expat WOULD make sense for the expat,but it wouldn't make any economic sense to the company.Unless of course the expat chooses to become a local and accept revised terms.
Again,I feel that this CHOICE given to an expat by SIA,to join up on expat terms and later BE ABLE to move onto local terms is by itself a huge privilege extended by SIA to the expat,which too many companies won't even consider! All in all,an extremely pilot oriented and pilot friendly airline which I seriously hope to hang my hat in(when i'm 60+ that is).And if it wasn't for the present state of the universe,this is something i would highly recommend to all of you on this forum.Retire with SIA......IF they'll have you for that long that is.
I'm sorry if my other colleagues on this forum feel shafted and won't agree with what i've just said.But then to each his own I say....:)
Now off to that beer i've left waiting....

[lepremier]

Lufthansa, Air France - KLM, British Airways, Iberia, Swiss, etc. That's all Airlines which offer lifelong careers in their home countries.

None of them have Expat Captains on special Expat Contracts.

You're talking about stuff like Emirates, Qatar, SIA, Gulf Air, Etihad etc.

Majulah.....Of course the airlines that you mention do not hire direct entry expat Captains, they have there own local recruiting and training schools and generally have had enough people coming through the production lines to to fulfil their requirements. SIA, for example, have expanded so vigorously over the years that their own training setup, good that it is, have never been able to keep up with the demand and have almost always relied on a "top up" from outside and believe me I know that they have always appreciated the "foreigners" in more ways than one, despite the comments of a few on these forums. I would also say that over the years SIA has been a good employer, albeit sometimes a "wee bit" business like and heartless and the country a good place to live a normal life and bring up a family under normal conditions. However anyone moving off his own turf has to accept that when economical conditions deteriorate due to sars, bird flu, bankers screwing up etc, the inevitable will happen.
As for salaries and conditions......if they are not attractive enough people won't come and the airlines expansion plans limited. Don't blame the expat for for taking advantage of market conditions......
As previously mentioned SIA, imho, has generally been a good employer and I for one would be sorry to see the current situation being used as a platform to incite local/expat relationships......
Sorry to drone on but the fridge is out of beer and the time change is keeping me up.......

[cpt777]

Silverisgood,
Your attempt to incite further row between locals and expats will not even come close to any success, simply because none has similar mentality like yours.
Back to the thread, it's a pity that this year SIA has to let go so many expats. Inside sources revealed that flight ops indeed had attempted to hold back the decision to "cut loose" expats to contain cost. However, those of you who're in the company long enough, do know that the real boss is not G Y himself, it's HR.
It's really really such regret that the bean-counters are totally convinced that for 2009 and 2010, we have to shed couple of hundreds of Skippers to keep the book looking "presentable" to the shareholders.
And despite this unpopular move by the much despised HR department, when it's time to rehiring, they will still have queue long enough to stretch from STC to Shenton Way. (Again, you gotta be long enough in the company to know that SIA is one of the best Expats airlines for most.)
For now, when they are totally done with the expats, even locals should start thinking hard of what may come next. The way things go, major steps can be expected after July this year.

[Chambudzi]

Very well stated cpt777 and a wise, well informed post from you.
silverisgood does not deserve attention and certainly does not represent the local pilot's attitude to what is happening in SIA.
It hasnrt been said here yet but there were other factors affecting the closing down of the Perth and Brisbane bases.
The Australian Govt shuvved up a fee for these pilots from AUS$1000/month/pilot to 3000 recently. Something to do with Aust labour law.
Also not mentioned is that these pilots received a fair severence package from SIA and are being retained on the companies books for when this financial downturn reverses. I have no doubt they will be invited back to SIA as soon as the world economy comes back from its present freefall.

[Chambudzi]

It is no surprise to me that "silverisgood" had his post removed by the moderators. His contribution was childish beyond obnoxious. BUT he did set a an unbeatable record that not even Cargo Jock or Cargo Boy have been equal to. He has posted only once on Pprune and that post was censored. LOL :D:D:D

[boeingdream787]

Is it true that the managment's now asking the pilots to take voluntary no pay leave? And if things dont improve soon,this may be followed by compulsory no pay leave??!!
Wonder what comes next.....times ARE quite bad!!

[Merlinrabbi]

Its official.

SIA passenger pilots face no-pay leave (http://business.asiaone.com/Business/News/Office/Story/A1Story20090305-126391.html)

[Phantom Driver]

13 a/c supposedly heading for the park (not counting 4 due to go anyway around this time),but 11 more (380/330) due to arrive this year; so net loss 2 airframes? Wonder what's the latest plan for crewing.....

[Flaperon777]

By what I heard the total number of airframes(380/330)coming in this fiscal year will total 14.But I guess the discrepancy's cause I'm talking fiscal and you probably are talking calander.One 380 & two 330's expected in first Q of 2010.
Wonder if it would be more prudent to have the initial deliveries deferred until the first or second Q of 2010.That may give the airline a better perspective by then(armed with better hindsight) and surely a better handle onto the scheme of things to come....
Just a thought...

[Mack Number]

Today SIA put out an "Early Departure Scheme" for expats. Guys can leave by June 30th and get pro-rated end of contract bonus payment plus any company bonus for this year, and, listen to this...get relieved of their training bond!! :ok:

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day. Having just said that, I think something similar happened about 1992 or 3 when SIA told all the expat F/O's that there wouldn't be any expat F/O's anymore. Similar terms were offered then and approximately 90+ resigned almost on the spot.

Whoa, somebody just ran past me to resign just now..and another...and..hey, wait for me!! :)

[cpt777]

Looks like the ride is gonna get lot more turbulent than expected. Coupled with the doom's day mentality of HR, I think the idea of staying above water (by having smaller amount of nett profit) is NOT good enough for the company. Every effort has been directed to maintain the company share value, in the potential rebound when the investors will eventually be looking for places to park their greens.
Let's hope that expats are ready for this, and Mach Number, you're absolutely right, couple of my mates have also just started their resignation processes. We are in the group of slightly more fortunate than some, that we loners are not in need of paying big mortgage or bills and will scrap through the whole crisis somehow. In view of that, we are pretty much happy to pick up other options of having more time to our hobbies than sticking around and be of burden to the company. (Well for the aussie based guys obviously we ain't got a choice anyway.)

P.S : Chambudzi, thanks for the kind words, life was a bit busier past couple of weeks for me to even get on the net.

[Left Coaster]

Quick question: Does that deal apply to the Cargo boys too? Thanks... LC

[kk pilot]

they have had the same offer for a couple of months now, and there has been no mass exodus......

[expat400]

Left Coaster.

I hope not. It's not a deal, it's a joke. What on earth do you find attractive in that? The subscription?

[SIN744]

Just announced from an internal email to the aircrew from Cargo Ops and confirmed by the SAS guys- service terminated for all of them from the 10th March.A meeting was held at 1000 at the SIA Sports Club.Further details when available.Best regards to all the guys concerned.

[Left Coaster]

Hey what's your problem? I asked a question, where in that question is any editorial regarding whether it's a good deal or not? If you have a problem with the deal (as you seem to) take it out on your boss, not me, I'm not interested in whether or not you think it's good or bad. What may work for one may not be what works for others...I don't appreciate your attitude.
LC

[SIN744]

Hi LC(J!).Not to worry about that response.Will pm you later-off to the pool to get the latest gen from the now ex-Cargo guys!

[expat400]

Hi LC

Sorry if I offended you. Not intended. I read it as you thought it was a good deal (which you of course have the full right to do). I find it an insult to the pilots in mainline.

My attitude was definitely a bit affected by the fact that I knew I was going to be fired today... which I was.

And I didn't even get a free subscription to "Outlook"...

[Left Coaster]

Hey...apology accepted with all speed! I guess I can figure out which bunch you might represent, and believe me I feel terrible for you and your colleagues. I have been through something like it, although the whole damn airline I worked for went "TU"... just not a wholesale release of good people. So... I can understand how you are feeling, and my best wishes to all you guys... Good luck...
LC

[ULH Extreme]

Were the Cargo SAS guys given the standard sacking ie 3mths and bugger off,or were they given the new expat offer [KK, it is new] which would be a bit softer? And they just hired 6 or so new capt, but on local contracts. Maybe now is the time to swallow their pride and merge cargo and mainline again..
Goodluck guys in your future aviation careers.

[kk pilot]

Cargo received a similar offer to mainline's Monday offer a month or so ago

[ULH Extreme]

Sorry KK, didn't know that. Do you know when the final date for leaving was, on their offer? Does this mean they are a couple of months ahead of mainline with their terminations, hope not.
Sia have announced closing of overseas bases but they have unwittingly opened one in Doha.:)

[kk pilot]

gotta be gone nlt 30 Jun with your name in the hat nlt 15 Jun - at least for mainline. I don't know if cargo has a drop dead date, but, with that being said, things are likely to remain very "fluid"..........

[LD7]

SAS guys were let go on March 9th effective March 10 with base pay for 3 months

[ArkPilot]

No final date for Cargo Pilots to leave. Only mainline pilots received final date for application.

[Flaperon777]

I do believe that all the pilots who had come in from SLK MAY be asked to return.Since the situation as SLK seems to be quite different than that as SIA.
Just what i heard...

[Jango]

Cast a thought for your buddies in engineering, they have already let go a lot of contract and direct hire foreign LAE and a huge amount of the Philippino technicians (who you all know actually did most of the work). They did the same in 98 and in 88 slumps!

[ULH Extreme]

Did someone remember to turn off the lights ?

[NOVMO]

Last one to leave will turn off the lights. . .:sad:

[King on a Wing]

I have a gut feeling that its gonna be a looong looong time before someone has to "turn out the lights". Managment's trying very very hard to work with the unions(so i hear),towards shorter working months etc etc.They've taken a cut themselves.....
So I see some honest commitment here..
Only time will tell i guess.

[sia sniffer]

I did hear that ALPA-S wanted to kick out all expats before any encroachment is made to the master race and their gravy (err Congee) train.

nice to hear nothing has changed, but its interesting to hear the expat fat cats squealing.Again.

[CDRW]

Good one sia snicher ..".. expat fat cats......". You obviously refer to expat fat cats in SIA!!!! Hahahahahha - jolly good one!!!

[sq111]

Ground staff take 1 day No pay leave per month, cabin crew 1day no pay leave every month.

Tech crew proposed to take 3 days (Capt) and 4 days (FO) no pay leave per month.

Double standard?

[Orangputi]

Hi CDRW,

You really are a nasty little weed (a compliment given from Hayden to Harbajan Singh, what a nasty little sh## even belts his own team mates! ) I have read your previous posts and at best they would be considered racially biased at worst a complete Xenophobic extremist. Or perhaps we should name you what you really are a nasty sh*& stirring troll!

Look forward to your reply especially when you have supposed colleagues losing their jobs for f#$k sake, what is wrong with you!

[CDRW]

Wow Orang. Some one calls the expats in SIA "squealing fat cats", and you have a complete mental break down with me !!! Because I find the ironic humour in his post!! I can only assume you agree with that post! You poor sod. What is wrong with you!

[parabellum]

There are/were no expat 'Fat Cats' in SIA. SIA was a good airline that paid better than some and less than others but through judicious saving of salary, the CPF and the SIA Provident Fund, as well as some good bonus years, one would still never become a 'Fat Cat' - remember, SIA Sniffer was probably an expat FO, (a total sh*t contract) who didn't stay very long with SIA before either doing a runner or just leaving prematurely.

[rdr]

Now come on children, stop playing " Local-Expats" games. You are both professionals in a hurting industry. Times for airlines are indeed bad. You may want to emphatise with each other instead, of the usual pilot style bitching.
The expats will always be there, and the locals will never be on equal terms.

The truth is that SIA-Temasek have made billions of dollars with all your hard work over many years. Even to the extent that they have managed to brainwash everyone of you that a profit of less than 1 billion is, in fact, a loss.
Where have all the assets gone ? A lot of it is still there. Will they give it to you and your families ? Not bloody likely. The scenario is called collective pain.

Nobody to stand up to them this time. So they will wean away at you till someone squeals. Then they will chop him, call time-out and throw a few scraps for the rest, and do some spring cleaning in time for the next CA.

Nothing has changed, or will, so get along.

[King on a Wing]

Ok here are some facts.I fully agree with what rdr has to say.Just a coupla additions.
Cathay has reported a FY loss of over 1.2 billion USD and they aren't even considering cutting short ANY of the pilot's contracts.Leave alone terminating them! The only ones presumably under the scanner at CX are maybe the CC.Who too have a long ways to go before any pink slips are handed out.
Air India has reported a net loss of 1.1 billion USD and their pilots are amongst the highest paid in the world today.And living in a country where your 'bang for your buck' goes 3 times farther than anywhere else in the world.And just a week ago,the managment has considered a 10% salary cut for its senior execs only.That too only on the basic salary!
Emirates has been making a billion plus dollar loss for the past 12 months now(although there is a gag order within,not to even say the "L" word).And only last week have they announced a very marginal cut in hotel allowances for its pilots.
What on this earth makes SIA soo different,or should I say paranoid,that it starts cutting short pilot contracts,stops normal renewals of experienced captains' contracts,asks its pilots to take voluntary no pay leave and then forces them to take 3-4 days a month of compulsory no pay leave as compared to ONE day every 4 months for its CC(logistics aside)....!! And NOW are seriously considering retrenching its valuable expat pilot base.And ALL THIS WHEN ITS EXPECTED NET PROFITS ARE TO BE IN THE REGION OF 1.2 billion US dollars......!!!
Something doesn't make sense here.Something's drastically wrong with this......:=:=:=.
Needs to be looked into in detail.Microscopically....
And then rectified!

[CDRW]

Good post King. And just how we get that question to the powers that be is beyond most of us!!

[Arkdriver744]

Personal For:

Chew Choon Seng
CEO
SIA
Airline House
25 Airline Road
Singapore 819829

[King on a Wing]

Thanks for your support.Now to get the message across.....:ouch:

[fatbus]

king -where did you get your numbers on EK ? AGM at the end of the month and it wont be 1 Bil US loss and the slight change in hotel allowances is that, a slight change. hotel allowances is not a deal breaker at EK because they are only average at best

[King on a Wing]

"the slight change in hotel allowances is that,a slight change"......
That's just my point fatbus!!
With those kind of figures posted,EK makes just "a slight change" in their hotel allowances.
But a slightly different story with SIA.....don't u think.
My Fiscal Year figures are accurate.

[fatbus]

King sorry mate you got me confused now. EK has not posted any numbers yet, we will find out at the end of the month. The hotel changes are Honk Kong breakfast is now included and has restricted hours, meaning some of the big babies are crying about sleeping through it and the other is the 2nd daily Lagos, no money all meals provided and with a limited menu ( not totally sure on the details at Lagos)

[Phantom Driver]

Fatbus,

I have a feeling you are missing the point.....

[King on a Wing]

Thx PD,
Just when I was about to say "and that's how we drift off topic once again"...
Timely intervention.
There's a point in all of this FB.And its got nothing to do with the source of my numbers or those of anybody else's.Let's try and see the point we're all trying to make.Shall we...
Thanks.

[sia sniffer]

Forced unpaid leave is hardly leave, but there you are, SIA suck better than most. Wouldnt happen in the real world, where the same government that owns SIA also realishes a good Friday hang at Changi pen.

Yes I was wiv SQ, and it sucked even when it was good. I met all the skillful local boys, you know the types, Capt Kok iNG Aye Soc and Soh Ong.:E
All Pr1cks to white guys of course, but if I ever met em in a dark alley in SFO, I doubt they would be so plucky.

Now who's going to crew the A330,s? obviously the expats, after they are terminated, SIA will then offered them a dogs breakfast of a contract, worse than rubber dog sh1t cargo, and of course most will accept. As they always do.

The expat fat cats have many lives. I hear the poor sods are heading to the guttar, no doubt to watch a few more friday beheadings.

[Phantom Driver]

While we're on the topic, any ideas when the fourth quarter results are due out? Maybe better than expected/wanted? Meanwhile, the search for pilots to crew some flights continues....

[King on a Wing]

PD,
Quote "Meanwhile, the search for pilots to crew some flights continues...."
What exactly is that supposed to me.I'm sorry I lost u somewhere there.Could u pls elaborate on that statment.Thanks..

[birddream]

do you think they are likely to recruit new SOs again?

[parabellum]

SIA don't recruit SOs as such, they recruit and train cadets, with an eye to the future I would have thought they would have a continual training stream running as a cadet recruited today won't be productive for another two years, by then it could have all changed.

[kk pilot]

I was told they have cut recruitment to around 50 - 60 cadets vs the usual 180 or so for the yr - only second hand info though. I had an SO on an observation flt to MNL - he said he finished the 777 ground school course in Oct '08 but won't start sims on the 777 until Sep '09 - that's a long pool....

[cpt777]

You can find the following in ALPAS.org homepage. Be your own judge of what's the situation. Personally, I think it's a well written piece.

For those of you who may think the local pilots are too hostile towards expats, think again. No other country's labour laws will EVER allow any local to be retrenched before an expat. And in thise case, for those who do pay attention to the whole economic downturn in Singapore, you will know that the common folks are generally getting really nationalistic or pist off as during the last SARS episode, some locals actually lost jobs instead of expats. This does result in SQ HR's decision to take the cautious move in not renewing ALL expats' contracts this year, not even the Expat that had proposed and assisted in saving >1million bucks of fuel savings with his route short cut idea on the A340-500.

In all, I do totally agree that it's absolutely absurd that heads have to roll with <1Billion POST TAX profit forecast for coming year(not this year, but 2009-10), nothing is stopping us from NOT rejoining after things start to pick up. But my guess is, they won't have any problem getting their numbers when the time comes. That's SIA, too many waiting in line. Please don't bother telling me otherwise.
As for me, my choice of workplace is always in Asia. Now that my service is no longer required. I'm heading North for better luck. And all the best to the rest in their own pursue.




LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
News Release (http://www.alpas.org/index.php?c=news&PHPSESSID=d562a03b94ca1b34f2bee0440a94cc39)
Apr-7-2009, 13:02


http://www.alpas.org/alpas/posting/BusinessTimes1.jpg


http://www.alpas.org/alpas/posting/BusinessTimes2.jpg

[parabellum]

I think that is a very well written letter by Captain P. James. I did ten years on an expat contract with SIA and was never in any doubt where the axe would fall, if necessary. Sometimes SIA shoot themselves in their own foot with their PR and Stephen Foreshaw is surely following in that tradition.

[leewan]

Stephen Foreshaw is surely following in that tradition.
Isn't this the PR guy who resigned and went over to Microsoft ? Of course he will have said that, cos he's an expat himself.:p SQ is going down a sad path that most companies are already following. Shareholders over staff. In a bid to show glowing financial results to its shareholders, its started to neglect the ppl who truly make the airline fly. I'm referring to everyone in the airline business. Only in SQ can staff cut happen even as the airline is making money. SQ's management's definition of loss seems to be: A drop in PROFIT compared to the previous Q.

[411A]

Only in SQ can staff cut happen even as the airline is making money.

You haven't been around long in the airline business, have you, leewan?:rolleyes:

[leewan]

Spot on, 411A. Guess will take a few more years before the ruthlessness and immorality in the airline business seeps into my veins. Till then, I dun see how u can justify pulling away ppl's bread & butter while u r still making money to the tunes of a Billion.:mad:

[CARGOJOCK]

Well The Company Got Their Way.

We Pilots Gave Them One Day No Pay Leave. If Not They Would Have Terminated The Alps Ex Co Or Hasseled Them In Day To Day Life.

I Pity James...........

[ExSp33db1rd]

..........SIA, for example, have expanded so vigorously over the years that their own training setup, good that it is, have never been able to keep up with the demand..............


'twas always thus and always will be, simple arithmetic ( whatever the calibre of the training setup ) 'course, allowing female Singaporean pilots would alter things !!! ( do they, yet ? )

[NOVMO]

SIA has informed it will start renewing contracts for expat pilots.

Hope that really happens ... !
:confused: :ok: :confused:

[a345xxx]

Not very good news for QR!

[cpt777]

Contract renewal is confirmed. Personal mate of mine just got his best news of the year..

[Left Coaster]

So is it both groups? Cargo and Mainline? Thanks...

[Captain Oryx]

QR is not screening new DEC's until sometime next year.

How long are terms of the contract renewals? Expat, or local terms?

[cpt777]

So far, my only confirmed source, is on mainline only. Didn't ask him how many years, but would presume the standard 3 years. He's just too jubilant to talk about anything else.

Too bad some of us missed it by a tad, real pity..

[filejw]

777.Any chance you folks may get called back ?

[Phil Squares]

It's both Mainline and Cargo. Have friends on both sides who got the standard 3 year renewal. :ok:

[cpt777]

Filejw
So far, no news on my part, and I don't think I'm gonna go through the whole hassles of doing so. Not sure about the rest, would highly doubt so.

[787rider]

hey cpt777, this will be a great job at your end if you could find out from the fleet management about the prospects for the expat pilots who lost their jobs in last one year because of non renewal of contracts by SIA.

Many of us are sitting unemployed with CAAS licence current. Does SIA has any plan to take back few of us who are still intrested in joining back as fresh recruitment.

Thanks buddy, I am on ground for few months......... sad scene.

[cpt777]

787rider,
It is indeed unfortunate for us. I'm less pressed to go back since the move was made. Anyway, if you do wanna know, from what I was told by some of my closer local mates, SIA wont be hiring new expats as they intend to keep the paycut (1.65days) in effect for as long as they can foresee. And as you can see whichever fleet that I was from, I would dread write to its fleet management knowing the standard reply that you can expect from them.
All the best mate.

[787rider]

Thanks Buddy for the quick response, much apprciated:ok:

[NOVMO]

Any news on Contract Renewal ? :confused:

[faheel]

Started renewing contracts about 2 weeks ago on a selective basis.
Do not see SIA advertising for commanders ever again though so if you have any thoughts of joining I suggest you look elsewhere :(

[Chambudzi]

15 expat pilots are/were due for renewal of contract from 5th Nov 09 to 31 March 2010. 11 of them were offered renewals and 9 have indicated they wish to renew. The company has promised to give all expats 6 months warning of contract renewal either way from now on. If there is a requirement in the future to recruit expats, those who got the bullet and wish to return will be afforded first chance to come back.

[411A]

Do not see SIA advertising for commanders ever again ...

Have to laugh at this statement.
Those with a long memory will recall several pronouncements like this (mostly from the company) in the past that later proved quite untrue.

If there is a requirement in the future to recruit expats, those who got the bullet and wish to return will be afforded first chance to come back.
This statement as well is a LOL scenario.
Quite unlikely.
The look of SQ now might be different, the management thinking however, remains mostly the same.

[Phantom Driver]

411A; Perspicacious as usual; (and yes, old chap, that IS intended as a compliment!):ok:

[faheel]

411A
to each his own I guess.
But laugh all you like I think I am right and you are wrong, but I would love to be proved wrong in this case:sad:

[Chambudzi]

411A
About 10 days ago the director of ops met with about one third of the expats left in SIA.
That is where I got the info I posted. I quite agree with you that SIA will once again recruit expats sometime in the distant future. The director stated as much at this meeting. He also said he was aware of the expats who would be prepared to return to SIA having been "let go" during the recession. These are pilots whose contracts would have been renewed had it not been for the recession. In many cases they are pilots who have signed multiple contracts in the passed with SIA and are therefor known quantities. Since the director said that they would be afforded the first chance to return before any outside recruitment could take place I take him at his word.
It does not take a change in SIA management style for them to recognise a win/win opportunity that saves time and money. Taking back known pilots who need no interview, sim ride or medical and can fly the line within days of returning is a no brainer.
Meantime you keep on laughing old man, it is doing you good

[Phantom Driver]

Taking back known pilots who need no interview, sim ride or medical and can fly the line within days of returning is a no brainer.



Do you really think this is how the system works? I've heard of the "old boy network", but I think you may find this is stretching it a bit...(except maybe for a chosen few? and I wonder who those might be...)

[parabellum]

I think it is quite possible that SIA will take the devil they know before the devil the don't know. What would concern me is would they take me back on my previous salary, Ts & Cs and original DOJ, (for staff travel)?

[411A]

Do you really think this is how the system works? I've heard of the "old boy network", but I think you may find this is stretching it a bit...(except maybe for a chosen few? and I wonder who those might be...)

Hmmm, it appears that this poster knows how the 'system' works, which is quite the contrary to some others, for whom pie-in-the-sky might be a more apt description.:}

In SQ...a leopard does not change its spots.

[4PW's]

My wife would agree; leopards don't change their spots, they just hide in the shade. But perhaps a fairer comment regarding expat positions in SIA would be to first acknowledge the massive commitment to bringing Second Officers on-stream.

Given the process began a few years ago, these lads, for there are no lassies, will be on stage to upgrade in less than a decade. That's a lot of localization. Good or bad, it's hard to see a long-term future for expats in SIA.

Sorry, but the world has changed.