SVFR in a permit aircraft

[steveking]

Last night I had some discussion with a friend about going to the channel islands as I have been several times and really enjoy the whole SVFR flight. We then got onto discussing that 10K vis was required for a non IMCR pilot. I'm not IMCR rated myself and have thought about doing it but not quite got round to it yet. We then discussed that if you are IMCR rated then the vis is allowed to drop to 3K for SVFR, now I assume that because we are SVFR we still need to have the surface in sight etc just our foward view is allowed to drop to 3 K the same as VFR in uncontrolled airspace.

Now this is where it gets a bit more tricky. I fly an RV6 (permit) and not allowed to go IFR. Now if I have my IMCR rating would I be allowed to drop my foward vis down to 3K in SVFR conditions. I would like to think so as I would not be IFR and would still be abiding by the same SVFR rules as I would when with 10K vis.

I'm not saying that I am going to attempt bad weather IFR flying at all, just on occasion the channel islands suffer from quite a lot of haze which can drop vis down to 7k etc and would give me a great excuse for getting on with the IMCR if I could get a bit of benifit out of it.

Any views appreciated.

Steve

[BackPacker]

A UK-issued JAA PPL is by law (the ANO) restricted a bit further than what the JAA/ICAO prescribe for that. Amongst other things, you cannot fly VFR-on-top.

The IMC rating, in addition to giving you limited IFR privileges, also lifts some of these restrictions that apply to VFR flight.

In a permit aircraft, as you say, you cannot fly IFR, but you can benefit from the lifted VFR restrictions when you obtain your IMCR. Question is, is it worth it?

[Rod1]

The short answer is yes, you are still SVFR. Do remember though that the CI is one of the few places that require you to apply for permission in advance to fly there if you have a permit aircraft.:ugh:

Rod1

[steveking]

Good that I at least have the option to lower my VIS limits.Don't know if I'll rush out and do the IMCR but who knows.

The CI are really good I never used to get PPR as no one ever asked and I wrongly assumed that the flightplan was PPR. During the summer though I had Guernsey ATC call me after I had flight planned to request all my Docs be sent over. I faxed them straight away and they gave me a blanket clearance untill my permit expiry date. They done all this in 2 hours. So pretty helpfull. The letter of permissiion was on the book in desk when I arrived. I did notice on the permission slip that it also stated no NPPL pilots, seems strange still uk airspace isn't it, lucky enough I have a JAR PPL so no probs.

[HershamBoys]

I did notice on the permission slip that it also stated no NPPL pilots, seems strange still uk airspace isn't it, lucky enough I have a JAR PPL so no probs.

Not strange....the Channel Islands are are not in the UK, and not in UK airspace. They are Crown Dependencies and as such have their own ANOs, which do not, for the moment, recognise 'Permits to Fly' or the NPPL.

Also, don't forget that the 'Permit to Fly' is only valid within the territorial waters of the jurisdiction which issues it [ie not the airspace]. So, if you were going from the UK to the Channel Islands, for example, that portion of the flight between the UK territorial waters and the Channel Islands territorial waters in a Permit to Fly aircraft is a bit of a grey area............http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wbored.gif

HB

[S-Works]

I did notice on the permission slip that it also stated no NPPL pilots, seems strange still uk airspace isn't it, lucky enough I have a JAR PPL so no probs.

No it is French airspace overlaid during operational hours by Channel Islands airpsace...... The CI have their own airspace and ANO.

[steveking]

France accepts permit aircraft without PPR and I'm ok in the UK so if I have PPR from the CI I should be ok, unless anyone else has a bit of airspace out there :-)

Just looked on flightstar, French airspace clearly over the CI my error.

The CI were fine with my permit to fly once the Docs were seen which is good as it's only just over an hour for me from EGML and is a great flight.

I'm quite happy with my legality of going there it was the IMCR that got me curious.

[Mark 1]

HB - The wording on the permit allows flight in UK airspace, no mention of "over UK territory" or anything like that. So no problems as far as ORTAC.

I can't understand why they can't give an AIC granting standing permission for UK homebuilts at least. There are, after all, several G- reg.d homebuilts based in the CI which don't have any 'right' to fly there without an exemption.

Previously I've had CI exemptions for the remainder of the permit validity, but the last ones were only granted for a short period. Does anyone know if this is a deliberate change of policy?

[HershamBoys]

Mark 1

In respect of the term 'UK airspace', there is a requirement to differentiate between 'the UK's airspace', ie that portion of the sky above the UK's territorial waters over which the UK has legal jurisdiction, and 'the UK's airspace', as in that part of the sky managed by the UK in accordance with international agreements - ie the UK FIR. It's all a bit legal , but I don't think that the CAP makes it clear.

4 International flights by aircraft operating on a Permit to Fly
4.1 The Permit to Fly is not an internationally recognised document and aircraft operating on them are not certified to an internationally recognised standard. The Permit to Fly is, therefore, only valid within the UK airspace unless:
a) an exemption has been granted by the CAA permitting a flight or flights abroad (this exemption is normally given as standard wording on the Permit to Fly), and
b) permission in writing has been obtained from the national aviation authority of each country that is to be overflown, or in which a landing is to be made, for the flight or series of flights.

If I wanted to go from south of Blue 1 to Le Touquet, it is my opinion that I would be 'legal' if I crossed over on the shortest channel crossing where the UK and French territorial waters meet, as the Permit is recognised by France as an EASA member. If I wanted to go to Jersey, I am still not totally happy that between exiting the UK territorial waters and arriving in Jersey's I would be watertight.

HB

[S-Works]

I can't understand why they can't give an AIC granting standing permission for UK homebuilts at least. There are, after all, several G- reg.d homebuilts based in the CI which don't have any 'right' to fly there without an exemption.

I am struggling to see the problem. If you choose to operate an aircraft that is not certified to an international standard, presumably to keep your cost of aviation down, is it unreasonable to expect any authority to ask to check the documentation?

If you want free unhindered access under international treaties then you fly an ICAO compliant CofA aircraft.

I think the sheer fact that so many states outside of the UK allow a permit aircraft into their airspace with so little hassle is pretty good of them.

[Spitoon]

Hersham, as you say, things are not simple. Article 146 of the ANO saysExtra-territorial effect of the Order
149 (1) Except where the context otherwise requires, the provisions of this Order:
(a) in so far as they apply (whether by express reference or otherwise) to aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, shall apply to such aircraft wherever they may be;
(b) in so far as they apply as aforesaid to other aircraft shall apply to such other aircraft when they are within the United Kingdom or on or in the neighbourhood of an offshore installation;
it goes on....

Clearly the leagal bods and bodesses think that they have jurisdiction over a UK-registered aircraft whilst it is within what you call 'the UK's airspace' but for an aircraft registered elsewhere the remit only extends to your 'UK airspace'. Of course sub-para (a) means that they also think that their remit where a UK-registered aircraft is involved can extend to, well, anywhere.

Whether this is legally valid, I don't know, I'm not qualified to express an opinion. But I'm presuming it must be because otherwise the UK Government wouldn't let it stay on the books surely.......

[Piper.Classique]

I am still not totally happy that between exiting the UK territorial waters and arriving in Jersey's I would be watertight.Dunno. Is it a seaplane?

;)

[steveking]

As I said above the CI did ask me for my Docs prior to leaving and they were very helpfull. I'm not moaning at all about the cans and can'ts of permit aircraft.I think all in all we get a great deal. It's all plus and minus's be it C of A or permit.

I did mention to the CI on the phone that they could check all my details on G info, the girl said that she was already looking at it but currently thay weren't allowed to use G info as proof but they were looking at changing there procedures to allow the use of the g info site for reference and PPR for permit aircraft in the future.

Buy checking our docs we are showing that we are legal. Out of curiosity how do the CI know that a C of A aircraft is legal with all it's docs in place?

The LAA website has details of what counties you do or do not need PPR for.

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/TechnicalLeaflets/Operating%20An%20Aircraft/TL%202.08%20Travelling%20abroad%20in%20a%20Permit%20Aircraft .pdf

[IO540]

the CI is one of the few places that require you to apply for permission in advance to fly there if you have a permit aircraft.:ugh:A slight understatement, taking Europe as a whole. One cannot get around it in a Permit plane without getting a load of paperwork some of which could take months to sort out.

[Rod1]

“A slight understatement, taking Europe as a whole. One cannot get around it in a Permit plane without getting a load of paperwork some of which could take months to sort out.”

Lots of Europe has signed up to the 1980 agreement for joint acceptance of home built aircraft. The Belgium and the CI are the two most irritating exceptions to this, but in most cases it is quite quick and painless to get approval. Of course there is strictly no IFR allowed which is probably why some people are attempting to rubbish the system:=

Rod1

[IO540]

On the contrary, Rod1, I find that arranging airport PPR in the more southern parts of Europe can be hard enough :ugh: and having to arrange airspace PPR (required for any plane with a non-ICAO CofA) is a whole lot more hassle on top of that.

But the vast majority of PPLs hardly ever leave the UK so it doesn't affect them. It just robs flying of one of its biggest long term magnets.

[S-Works]

Of course there is strictly no IFR allowed which is probably why some people are attempting to rubbish the system

And neither was I..... merely pointing out that if you choose to operate on a permit rather than to an international standard you should expect to jump through any hoops that are required rather than being all indignant that some places won't accept you.

What is in place seems pretty reasonable to me. The fact that so many countries signed up to the 1980 agreement is a bonus not a right.
;)

[steveking]

The microlight instructor on my field is always taking trips into europe. He is planning a trip to India in January, some 6000 miles going through some countries you wouldn't catch me going through in any type. I myself in permit aircraft have travelled into europe quite a bit, going down to Spain this year. I really haven't had any troubles. I suppose if you were going to countries that required PPR every week then a C of A might be better but most people hardly ever go and some on occasion. Ironically out of all the pilots I know those that go most are in permit aircraft. Getting back to the microlight instructor at my field he even has courses called "Tour and Train" in which he takes students around europe to gain valuable flight planning experience. I wished my GA club had done something like that when I was training.

All aircraft and pilots have restrictions and limitations, VFR, IFR, Aero's, Night, Short field landing capability, 2 seat, 4 seat, Permit, C of A. You pays your money and fly what takes your fancy and within the restrictions you have. No one aircraft can do it all.

Well maybe my RV6 comes close, but that is mine and I may be a bit biased. :)