Cowboys in the Sky! (ref:recent accident-series)

[Setron]

As long as there are cowboys out there that think they have to fuel their egos by flying stunts like using water as a touchdown spot or flying low over a full rugby stadion, there will always be some easy to impress youngsters/inexperienced pilots that feel it's OK to push the limit!
It also does not help that the CAA is fire and flame to support those irresponsible nutters! They should rather pull licences...http://static.pprune.org/images/icons//icon8.gif
Com'on Skully, take that 74 and fly it again out of Rand! Should be right up your alley!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/pukey.gif
Deaths like the ones in Rand are on your consience my friend,...think about it (for once...)

(But then again, who needs to think when one is a skygod......)

My heart and thoughts go out to those who lost their lifes in the recent accidents and those who got left behind alone!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/sowee.gif

[unstable load]

Oh come on, man! Get real.

How do the actions of a pilot who is hugely experienced, capable and in control of his ego negatively influence some inexperienced guy whose ego totally outstrips his abilities??

The fault is not with the guys who CAN do it, it is the fools who would like to THINK THEY CAN! Sadly, no amount of instruction will ever teach common sense to an individual who is disrespectful of the laws of physics and common sense.

If you want to blame anyone then blame the culture of low time/questionable ability and a get them out the door mentality from instructors that is putting people out there who are hardly qualified to fly in broad daylight in some cases, let alone in any stressful environment.

Yes, the recent spate of accidents is horrible, but the fault is not with Scully and his peers who are PROFESSIONALS of SUPERB ABILITIES who think their actions through completely and rehearse thouroughly before they set out to "be irresponsible cowboys".

Take a step back and think about this again. People have always tried to emulate and outdo others regardless of the differences in experience levels between them and the results have almost always been painful or tragic.
The only difference here is that it's not a bunch of kids on bicycles or skateboards trying to outdo each other, but kids with deadly toys that kill far more people than are involved in the posturing and willy-swinging.

[308GT4]

If you going to name people, one should be a bit more specific, I believe.
I would imagine that an empty 747 or 340, with minimal fuel on board is rather light. So, if it lost TWO engines simultaneously on the same wing, it very likely is not un-flyable, even at 2000' a.g.l.
Secondly, have a look at mentioned Skygod at the next air show. He is about the only aerobatic pilot doing a display who, if a wing sheared off at any given time, the wreckage would NOT land in the crowd, alla Ramschtein style. I am NO defender of the Skygods, but we should not use names here.

Back to the male ego. Yes, very very much the problem at hand with most of the accidents of late, I imagine/surmise, from my armchair sitting at home on the ground.
If you read "The naked pilot" you will see that (surprisingly) at the end of his book, he says that he has not even touched on the devil of "the male ego" in aviation safety.
I HASTEN to add: NOT just the male ego, but both male AND female egos of lately. 1980's onwards. [see S.Trenchpath etc etc]:}

[oompilot]

Setron, that’s like blaming Michael Schumacher for road accidents.

[Der absolute Hammer]

A read through horrific litany of aircraft accidents in South Africa recently arises in the mind only one word - airmanship - rather lack of it. In so many of the recent disasters the question could be raised as to whether absence of airmanship is possibly the primary cause of the accident and lose of life.
Airmanship was to be a quality that had to be demonstrated by a pilot before he was either checked out as a PPL or had his two year(???) renewal check. If a trainee was not demonstrating airmanship he did not check out - even if the flying was perfekt. If this quality is now lacking in SA general aviation, it is perhaps that the instructor profession must bear much of the responsibility and that in the Flight Ops at CAA, the ultimate over seer, should ask itself if it does enough to monitor the control exercised by Grade II instructors over Grade III instructors and the dedication and maturity of those Grade II people thermselves.

[biggestboy]

Setron - your post smacks of failed SAA selections - - - maybe look at yourself harder????????? rather than blame 1 person.

[weido_salt]

I was in SA for 12 months over 20 years ago, working for a SA company flying SA req aircraft.

The thing that struck me during my time down there was a lot of pilots were damned cowboys. Beat ups seemed the norm and a lot of unauthorized low flying was witnessed. Lack of self discipline and poor airman-ship, seems to be the root of the problem, they seemed to be having THEN and it seems it has not improved, judging by the accident rate. IMHO. "Aggressive flying" has no place in civil aviation, therefore best it remains with the military.

Operational low flying can only be carried with any degree of safety, only after hours of training, practise and be current!

They published this paper with the results of an enquiry back then and new rules were implemented. Still hasn't had any impact on the accident rate.

Until people who get licenses, realize that aircraft, as with all motor vehicles are lethal if you fool about in them, the accident rate will remain high. It may take a generation for it to improve. It is the impromptu display that will take out people and their innocent passengers as much as anything else. Resist that temptation!

In my view airshows should not be banned, as most displays are carried out by competent pilots after hours of practise and who are current and remain so.

If any pilot needs to get his/her rocks off, and play the fool in an aircraft do this and you may survive. 1/ get someone to show you how to do a bet up properly. 2/ Then, if you haven't got it out of your system do it miles away from anywhere on your own. If you screw it up at least you wont have taken out an innocent passenger or bystander with you. You of course will not have an audience, so not really worth it, is it?

Yes I have made mistakes throughout my career, so learn from others as you will not live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself. I started learning 40 years ago. You will notice I said started learning because I still am learning. We learn from our mistakes.

I think it is a good thing for instructors to take their students to see the aircraft that have been involved in fatal accidents. It ain't a pretty sight believe me and it if makes just one student think twice before doing something stupid, it is worth while.

[Der absolute Hammer]

No but look - only can gain opinion from reading what is published but the recent accidents are not as much to do with being a cowboy as they are straigh forward lack of common sense and airmanship.........
Without being in judgment but statement of facts..........

It is not clever to retracrt flap while on runway or while moving.
A Baron conversion instructor should point out differences in models of switch position.
On a summer morning on Rwy 35 ast Rand, not much is safelyairborne with six people on or with one engine.
Etc and on and on.....
There is something wrong here at the grass roots!

[CJ750]

Airmanship, Cowboys...........................???????...........



Don't you think we need to find out the causes of some of the accidents before we point fingers. I have heard that a wing came off one of the planes but that is not confirmed. Another a turbo was lost on take off.

Lets get the facts. Too many accidents.

Still not a good situation. :ugh::ugh:

[exjet]

Weird Salt - your observations from over 20 years ago show a trend?

I think that you missed what happened inbetween.

:confused:

[unstable load]

I must agree with some of the posters that the problem has a deep grounding in a lack of basic Airmanship.
How to address it and fix it once the "uneducated" have been passed off as qualified is for someone much higher up the foodchain than me to figure out, but it is a serious issue that needs addressing.

One of the big challenges to this is that you cannot teach common sense. The best is to try and hammer on the thought processes that will lead to forethought rather than hindsight.

[Pitch&Fan]

Setron, Setron, Setron,

You are such a misguided, vindictive, little personality. And then to add the pretentious, OTT little emotional bit at the end of your post... Pathetic.

Stand by for an interesting development fairly soon after this... You're gonna be sooooo surprised.

With absolutely no respect at all,

P&F

[Pitch&Fan]

Unstable Load,

Good post!

Cheers,

P&F

[Der absolute Hammer]

Instructors must not teach flying alone but also airmanship. It is like flying in alps. Many different things to watch out for there. You cannot see the dangers always. You must be tought to anticipate the problem before it comes to you.
Airmanship can be -ingested? But the instructor has to awaken a chain of lateral thought process in the student. It is then the responsibility of the examining instructor-CAA? to ensure that this process has been done, possible he has to invent scenarios and ask questions, on taxi out for test for example, to see if the training process has lit the fire of airmanship thinking. Airmanship in the past is a subject in its own right. Is it still? You could pass a flight test for skill but fail it because of lack of airmanship - so should it be. But it takes a strong CAA to enforce a regime where one can be failed for attitude!

[Setron]

Thanks to all the posts, the well founded (for good thoughts)and and the plain stupid (for a good laugh)!
Also this is in my view not a laughing matter!!!
Lets go:
Puff & Fart - as usual not very constructive and way of the subject!
unstable load - quite correct, airmanship plays a big factor, but I recon if one is a ass on the highway, then you won't change when you strap wings to your bum. It's a culture thing.
exjet - things have changed (for the better) but not far enough!
CJ 750 - Of course we have to find out what happened in the "Rand" case to make it saver for all. Every accident should help to save lifes later but the rootproblem is not metalfatique...
DaH - " There is something wrong here at the grass roots! " :ok:
It has become much easyer to get your instructor and this shows now. CAA has lost it and the people pay for it. There is no room for empowerment in Aviation if you have to lower standards of safety to achieve it!
weido_salt - 20 years ago Nelson was still reshaping stones; Things do change over time, it's just a matter of Hdg & Speed!
biggestboy - Wrong; never wanted to be a Train-driver so never applied. I find it rather strange to get your salary payed out of your own pocket:confused:
oompilot - I don't see Michael Schumacher driving or for that matter Sean Tucker flying around as a busdriver with 275odd paying passengers behind him! Some things just don't go together if you want to be professional in several.
308GT4 - Point taken, but if someone craves the public admiration then he should also stand for critisism if it arises out of his actions. It's like the movie star, that likes the attention and his picture in the papers but hates the paparazi who put him there!:confused:
The immediate effect might be "wow!", but the consequences (not immediate apparent) might be devastating.
I am sure the Ramstein-guys did not plan to have an accident or fly afterwards into the crowd. So, unless he, who's name must not be mentioned, has a cape and flies without an a/c, is just as mortal as anybody else.
You are treading the same dangerous path mentioned by supporting monkeybusiness, 308GT4!
unstable load - Correct, the fault not only rests with the Skully's of this world but also with a low-experience CAA, that tries to make up for mistakes in the past by quick-bleech actions that put low-experienced, not mature enough people out there to do things they are not ready for.

Puhhh, that was long, but I did not want to leave anybody out.

It is always good to have an idol to follow, but always remember:
It's OK to take a risk if you are the only one who is paying for it!

S (not Superman!:))

[Der absolute Hammer]

Possible then that much of what is wrong with aviation attitude in SA lies as a example direct at door of those who argue that commercial licence holders fly as command and/or single crew on B1900?

[Pitch&Fan]

Setron,

Pasted from your opening post:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Com'on Skully, take that 74 and fly it again out of Rand! Should be right up your alley!
Deaths like the ones in Rand are on your consience my friend,...think about it (for once...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Way off the subject? ... You're quite simply wrong chap, and require a serious ACK. I'll be only too happy to administer the corrective action... PM me if you have the courage to take me up on the offer. By the way, Scully is spelt with a "c". How well can you possibly know someone if you can't even spell his name?

The rest of the posts (by others) make for constructive, thought provoking reading. Der Absolute Hammer's theory on teaching airmanship makes particularly good sense, and may just lie at the root of all these accidents lately. Airmanship was a major Pass/ Fail aspect in the SAAF, and most reputable airlines (operators) assess "attitude and bearing" during training and checking.

[Doodlebug2]

P&F, I agree. Setron, you are way out of your (or anybody else's) league. Airmanship and discipline usually are major contributory factors in most aviation accidents.
PS. Setron, pleeze lurn too spel.

[Jamex]

I think the remark made about Scully flying the B742 out of Rand was a bit unfair. I seem to recall it was Dennis Spence who landed the a/c at Rand and not Scully. The flight and landing was conducted by an all-SAA crew after a lot of planning and also done on SAA's insurance who must've been happy it was safe to do otherwise they would not have insured the a/c for this particular flight. I have met Scully and spoken with him quite a few times and he always came across as a first-rate gentleman with a passion for flying second to none. I think it is very harsh and unfair to vilify said gentleman on a public forum and not at all what one would expect from a professional pilot. We pilots are all on the same side (or should be) and we should be singing off the same hymn sheet and looking out for one another. Go read "We band of brothers" by Ernest Gann to see what I mean and dont let envy of a truly professional pilot eat you up.:=

[Der absolute Hammer]

If you speak of the Lebombo - it is DS and SL and PP who fly it to Rand.
Not at all a risky thing to do and probably shows a fine degree of airmanship.

[Setron]

I am so ashamed of myself and now I am very afraid too, PF.
As you use scare-tactics you must be working for SAA!
You have won! I will have to leave the country and... hang on,what am I talking about? I have already left, and unless you spend your free ticket on a trip up north that clap for you will have to wait.

What I am really sorry for is that I had to use S.L.'s name to get you guys thinking. The fact is that he is a good pilot and is sure to draw some attention...q.e.d.
It's only a shame he is working for SAA.

With the knowledge, that the problem is rooted deep in the training, now in the open, I leave it to you boys and gals to do what is necessary to safe the reputation of the SA-licence-standard.
Got to go now and put another lock on my door...;)

[unstable load]

With the knowledge, that the problem is rooted deep in the training, now in the open, I leave it to you boys and gals to do what is necessary to safe the reputation of the SA-licence-standard.

Setron,
That may well prove to be more difficult than anyone thinks. Sadly the CAA is now a typical Guvmunt department with the same personnel issues as all the others, all thanks to AA and our old nemess BEE. Consequently, the long time serving white guys have taken packages or retired, leaving a new generation whose sole "passion" is a job in government with all the associated pension, health etc benefits and only a very secondary interest in their jobs. Once most of them got this plum post, I'm sure they were horrified to realise that they actually were expected to put some effort in and that they had to make decisions too:sad:.

The recent spate of accidents IMO is confirmation to me that my theory is valid. Our new "system" is supposey based on the JAR in order to facilitate commonality and maybe in the wishful future to allow for inclusion, but had anyone upstairs actually known what they were doing they would have realised that having a bunch of manuals and regulations in place was the easiest part of it all.
The difficult part of it is having the vision to forsee and plan for eventualities and knowing how to implement those changes effectively.

Another stumbling block I feel is the lack of control of the system. In the "old days" I had my then DCA inspector walk into my hangar completely unannounced for a "quick look-around" and that kept me on my toes. Since the revolution the element of surprise is over, the CAA guys insist on the operators buying their tickets (business class), booking hotels (3 star minimum) and per diems, all carefully arranged in advance so the element of surprise is long gone.

Add to this the perception that the CAA has APPARENTLY become available to the highest bidder as far as accountability/enforcement/exam papers is concerned and you have a system teetering on the brink of collapse and subsequent ridicule in the international arena.

[Gooneybird]

I'm thinking of setting the words "Cowboys in the sky" as lyrics to the track "Riders of the Storm"

Edited for spelling...I'm drunk

[B Sousa]

the CAA guys insist on the operators buying their tickets (business class), booking hotels (3 star minimum) and per diems, all carefully arranged in advance so the element of surprise is long gone.

Any place other than Africa its called bribery.

[unstable load]

Gatties,


Any place other than Africa its called bribery.


Not so loud, mate! You know how sensetive they are to that word.....;)

[millertime]

Setron
You have gone from saying a certain individual had the deaths at Rand on his conscience to " he is a great pilot and you used his name to get attention. Now that's a backtrack if I ever heard one. Obviously an "error" because english is not your first language.

To get to the topic at hand (some good posts). I am not an instructor, but could the following two points perhaps have bearing on the spate of accidents:

1. We have just come out of a very cold winter into a few vicious heat spells and some pretty strong winds. For the whole winter a mindset could have developed of not bothering about density altitude. Suddenly the massive weather change means ignore density altitude at your peril. This would affect a light a/c up here through all phases of flight, takeoff, landing and upper air work. Once again the traps of routine and complacency pose real threats.

2. Two things in forced landings after t/o were always drummed into me, speed into height and pick a field within 30 to 45 deg ahead of you, no turnbacks (density altitude will also bite here, as well as strong winds). The SAAF always said never pick a field unless you can make keypoint 1 (3000' overhead) ,keypoint 2 (2000' downwind) or keypoint 3 (1000' base leg) and aim for one of those keypoints.

Just a few points, are these aspects still taught or is there a gap in the training? Are the Threat and error aspects of guarding against routine ,complacency and time pressure emphasised in CRM training?

[Setron]

millertime - not a backtrack, rather a calming down to normal levels.
Like with salary matters you must aim high to get a normal level.
Only a hothead like Pussy&Fanny would have taken the allegations serious.
Isn't it funny, that as long as PFy is not interrupting the thread, the comments are continuously interesting and mostly founded?
People that know Scully (with a "c";), am rather surprised PFy picked that up!) know of his value and would have understood!
Language, oh yes, I am juggling 3+1/2 at the moment incl. a very "throaty" one, so thats maybe why. If duds like Doodlebug2 are more into spelling then the meaning, then they must just f-off and go to : www.spellingbee.com/ (http://www.spellingbee.com/) or www.gamequarium.com/spelling.html (http://www.gamequarium.com/spelling.html)
Should be more "up their alley":)
unstable load - I recon we all miss the good old day's when things were more "stable"!
When Zimbos start running the show at the SACAA, then one starts wondering what is generally happening in SA...
I think the privatisation of the CAA was a big mistake in regards of safety!
Once something is down the drain, it's rather messy to get it right again!
The CAA quick-bleech of instructors will not help the situation.
I wish Scully would spend more time in that department, cause thats were his experience is needed the most in these darkening times to turn the tide!

(PS: There are still some good people in the CAA, but sadly just a few, a happy few, a band of brothers...)

...and now everybody: da, da, di, da, daaaaah...:cool:

[divinehover]

Sentron

This is a prof pilots network. You clearly have nothing to contribute here. If you are willing to throw Capt Levin's name around then I suggest you put your own name on the post.

DH

PS. Can you please show on some B747 graphs what was unsafe about flying over a stadium or landing at Rand. Please provide only facts and not your opinion which you have proved to be worthless.

[Pitch&Fan]

Good old Setron. What a fine, well spoken, keen-minded, upstanding chap you are.

Both "Acts" (Water-Skiing & Stadium... The latter having been commanded by Laurie Kay actually) were fully authorised, seriously rehearsed, expertly conducted, and drew acclaim from around the world.

Now we have somebody, who (appears) to have a serious chip on his shoulder, trying to wage a war about all things SA and SAA. Nothing is out of limits. Names, organisations, and general slander are liberally, and inappropriately employed in this ridiculous vendetta. Thing is... A great deal of what you are writing is factually incorrect, and thus not even applicable to your campaign. A bit like giving yourself an F (for Fail) assessment. How many more times are you going to backtrack in a pathetically unsuccessful attempt to weasel your way out of your slanderous jottings.

Come on chap, get over yourself and stop this rubbish. Your "Save South African Aviation" campaign is a farce, and a front for your very obvious bitterness. You left SA for what you must have believed was a good reason. Good on you. Now live with your decision, and stop trying stir from behind your computer screen.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Here is Dennis own commentary from Pprune, March 7th, 2004. Prtined from a post by Gunship.....

The aircraft empty weight was 164 000kg and we had 20 000kg fuel on board. The aircraft was TOTALLY airworthy and every component was serviceable, it even has toilet paper in all the toilets!!!!!

We had a snag before start with the PMS (Performance Management Computer) so one was ordered from stores and it was fitted before we departed.

Take-off weight was 183 000 kg and the V1/VR speed was 125 kts. Max thrust was 1.6 EPR but we de-rated to 1.55.

We applied nearly max thrust on the brakes and it had acceleration that made the M3 drivers look like they were standing still.

We rotated just after intersection Lima, some 3000 ft from the beginning of 03 Left, and climbed away with a body angle of nearly 30°.

We were given vectors for Rand from the west, but because of some cloud we only became visual too late to commence the approach, so we were re-vectored and approached from the south.

We joined right-hand downwind for 11 and got the gear and flap 30, landing flap out early. As there is no approach aids on 11, we plotted an ideal path using the DME at RAV. The threshold height of 11 is 5500 ft AMSL at 0,7 DME RAV, so by the simple rule of 300 ft per nautical mile, we had our path plotted.

3,7 DME : 6400 ft
2.7 DME: 6100 ft
1.7 DME: 5800 ft

We did not want to touch early, because of the "lip" on the approach to 11, so we had a chalk line at 50m (150 ft) drawn across the runway to ensure that this would not happen, because of the visual illusion of such a narrow runway ( 15m wide compared to 60m wide at JNB).

The distance from the nose of the aircraft to the rear of the gear is 114 ft, so we would not want to touch down before the nose was at this line.

Also, the demonstrated landing distance from the flight performance manuals, and computed by the performance engineers at SAA is 3000 ft.

This is using ONLY brakes and NO thrust reverse, but we must remember that this is for a new aircraft with new brakes, not one with 107 000 flying hours on it !!!!

To ensure that we minimized the possibility of an over-run of 11, we then put another chalk line at 3600 ft from the end of R/W 29, so if we were not on the ground by this mark, we would go-around and have another attempt. In the Simulator we tried various scenario's using JNB 30L , NO aids, except for the 300 ft/NM [plot, a 5 kt crosswind and a 5 kt tail wind, NO reverse thrust, and every time we managed to stop before intersection Lima.

Well it worked at Rand, and we did NOT scratch the paint !!!

I managed to keep it on the centre line and touch down at the point we wanted - Bug speed at the weight of 178 000kg was 118 kts, but on short final with the wind at 070/08 I elected to fly it at 115 kts.

When Dennis Mc Dermot, our Flight Engineer called 20 ft on the radio altimeter, I closed the thrust levers and planted it firmly onto the runway, aircraft carrier style.

Well most of our energy dissipated rapidly, and by using medium auto-brakes, until I lowered the nose wheel, we managed to stop just before the intersection of 11/35. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Stew just "cracked" the reversers, in case we need them, but because the engines will be removed and used again, we did not want to ingest any debris, as ALL the engines were overhanging the runway. The brake temperatures did not move higher than the mid green range.


Regards,

Dennis

Please leave flying aircraft of which some here seem to know nothing to those that do! Also same for Scully - professional pilots are not responsible for sickening attitudes which must be prevailing in SA general aviation to cause so many accidents. I hope foreign pilots looking to train in SA are reading this thread and determining for themselves by rapid deduction the fact that something may be rotten in the state of some SA flight schools. Maybe it is that fewer cash pupils will lead to greater self regulation in matters of safety,
How can a pilot land on the wrong runway and then try to take off again?
He would stop quicker on the runway than running along up to the take off speed? If that is what really happened-has a licence been pulled-subject to enquiry? Bloody amateures pretending to be pilots!

[biggestboy]

OK so I am a lowly chopper jock

have been for 27 years now. .....I dont' know everything but I do Know if I was starting up my own operation tomorrow.... a lot of posters here would get a job tomorrow.

Setron - with your attitude, your backsatbbing, your vindictiveness, your sarcasm, your brilliant "Psychoanalytical" bull****.

I wouldn't hire you to make our coffee. We need TEAM PLAYERS.:yuk: People that go forward in life because they are good, not because they look good by making other people look bad.

[oompilot]

Setron your reply about my first comment is unfounded. None of the 'stunts' by Scully and Laurie, were carried out with fair paying passengers on board.
Thank goodness you said you've headed north. You say Pitch&Fan has poor CRM. The temperament of your replies are horrendous. Good like to who ever shares a cockpit with you.:uhoh:

[bdj]

I dont think guys like Scully are the problem. They are not beyond reproach, but highly competant. All you have to do is look at these small regional airshows and manifestations of piloting idiocy like CC Pocock to see where ego and complacency collide. Cowboys beget cowboys, its the South African way. Ego and testosterone, hell of a combination. Take the Barberton airshow recently, if knocking over your safety officer with the leading edge of your C172's wing is not a metaphor for SA's aviation probelms then I dont know what is! As a keen, conservative and low hour (206) hour PPL, Im keen to learn as much as possible from you more experienced guys out there. keep the discussions coming and keep them frank!

[Gooneybird]

Well if I ever jump into an aero commander I think I can guarantee you won't be seeing me balancing glasses of water on the dash and barrel rolling, but that doesn't mean I don't respect and admire Bob Hoover.

I love to watch experts in their field perform expert shows that please the crowd, and blaming them for the actions of idiots is like criminals blaming tv shows.

[Goffel]

Unstable Load.

I see you are quick to jump up and down about Setron and his weird views, (which I actually think he was just setting people up for an argument, which he succeeded), but in the same breath, you have lots to chirp about the "useless CAA inspectors", who you basically call uneducated and love jollies around the world at your expense, travelling business class and living in 3 star hotels...oh, and asking for their S&T's before they leave.

Pray do tell me, that even when these dumb, stupid, uneducated inspectors arrive at the out - station, they find a string of non-compliances even though the sure up-standing operator has known of their pending visit for a couple of weeks.

Have you ever gone thru yr own files and checked to see whether yr pilots are using a generic empty weight or are they using the legit aircraft empty weight.
The fuel that is in the aircraft is what is written on the nav log......and is the same fuel used for the load sheet. (load-sheeet signed with lic number).

Have you checked that yr pilots have signed the autho sheet and actually read what they have signed......(just check that yr AIP supplements are up to date before you answer that question).

When was the last time that yr pilots did a quizz on the op's manual.

I could go on and on....but then again yr company has got zero non-compliances...(and I am the tooth fairy).

Please..before you throw stones at some other guy about what he has written, make sure your own doorstep is clear.

I am willing to put my ears on a block, that after chatting to guys in the Flight ops department at CAA that you change yr views very quickly after you battle to answer some of their technical questions. (and that is from guys all cultures in that office).

Unfortunately, the guys travell cattle class.
I dont see anything wrong in asking for a 3 star hotel.
Most pilots get their S&T's before they depart....is the CAA any different?.

Goffel...sitting on the beach, AGAIN:cool:

[OneDay21]

CJ 750 - Of course we have to find out what happened in the "Rand" case to make it saver for all. Every accident should help to save lifes later but the rootproblem is not metalfatique...

How can you say something like this??
I forgot that if a wing breaks off in mid air, it obviously isnt the root problem.. Its purely pilot error...

[Pequena_Inquieta]

How well can you possibly know someone if you can't even spell his name?
I have nothing to do with the discussion, but...
Well, you know... it´s possible to know a lot about someone even not spelling his/her name the correct way.
Like my father, who can´t spell my name right even though I´m already 21. :hmm:

Just a remark.

[Malagant]

Purely pilot error..from what I hear they started to get turb and requested a return to the field..it was also an experimental aircraft so what about where and how it was built and maintained..so who U just to remark it was purely pilot error..I attended the funeral today and and doubt he would have intentionally wanted his wife and kids standing next to a coffin today..:(

[CJ750]

One Day 21

Wing braking off is pilot error..................Please explain:confused:

[OneDay21]

there is some confusion to what i meant:
I am ashamed to what Sentron said regarding the incident, it was a sarcastic remark stating it was pilot error.
I took it that he implied it was pilot error, i was a friend of the instructor in mention and am fully aware of his capabulities, without a wing he had no control of that aircraft.
i apologise for any confusion due to my grammatic error.

[Pitch&Fan]

Good man OneDay21... Decent of you.

[unstable load]

Goffel,

Yes, Setron did get our attention, rightly so.

I never said they were useless, uneducated, dumb..... YOU DID.

Pray do tell me, that even when these dumb, stupid, uneducated inspectors arrive at the out - station, they find a string of non-compliances even though the sure up-standing operator has known of their pending visit for a couple of weeks.


Sure they will find non-compliances when they visit. Except maybe at your outstation, that is, where the pliots don't make mistakes.

Have you ever gone thru yr own files and checked to see whether yr pilots are using a generic empty weight or are they using the legit aircraft empty weight.
The fuel that is in the aircraft is what is written on the nav log......and is the same fuel used for the load sheet. (load-sheeet signed with lic number).


Surprisingly eneough, they are pretty good with that and actually manage to get it right more often than not.


Have you checked that yr pilots have signed the autho sheet and actually read what they have signed

They do read it because they ask questions about it if they are unsure of anything.

My perfect company spends a lot of money to try and give the pilots the best training both in the SIM and HF etc to ensure that everyone is working to a common standard. Sadly, they are human so yes, there will be discrepancies and a good auditor will find them and they will be addressed and everyone will learn from it and the overall standard will improve. Your company on the other hand will ace the audit because they have YOU to guide them.

....but then again yr company has got zero non-compliances...(and I am the tooth fairy).


If only that were true. Would you consider coming to work for us?

Please..before you throw stones at some other guy about what he has written, make sure your own doorstep is clear.


My doorstep is probably a lot dustier than I would care to admit, mea culpa!

If I had written those comments about "Skully" all of the posters here would have been down my neck as badly and rightly so. What he wrote was an attack of a deeply personal nature on someone who is probably even more professional than you are ( subject to confirmation, of course) and were this not a unanimous forum would almost definitely never have been posted for fear of a libel suit.
Maybe they were only to get our attention, but I will stand by the fact that he stepped over a line by naming names especially when he turned out to be wrong, ie

Both "Acts" (Water-Skiing & Stadium... The latter having been commanded by Laurie Kay actually)

I fully support the spirit of this thread because the industry that I love and that has supported my family for almost 20 years is in serious trouble in the country I love.
It does not excuse the tone of the initial post in my opinion and I will stand by that statement.

As for the fact that I will struggle to answer technical questions from the guys of all cultures at CAA,
of course I will never get them all right. To expect different is unreasonable, after all the exams do not demand 100%.

Unfortunately, the guys travell cattle class.
I dont see anything wrong in asking for a 3 star hotel.
Most pilots get their S&T's before they depart....is the CAA any different?.

I am gong to be shot down for this, but here goes.......

The CAA should be responsible for the travel arrangements and accomodation of their own staff. If they are coming to audit me then it creates a problem because if they do not have a good flight or don't like their rooms then I COULD GET HAMMERED in the audit, so maybe I should stump up and fly them business class or put them in the Cape Sun so they will go easy on me.
Now, before you jump up and down and tell me they are all impartial and would never do that, just remember - they are human and subject to emotions like us all, and has been loudly proclaimed in the press some of them are less than honest.
It is eneough that I will have to pay for the visit from the CAA, I just feel that to add the responsibility of travel and accomodation to my requirements is creating an opening for exploitation.

As for S&T, I get mine with my salary which is paid in arrears AFTER I start my trip, so they are lucky there.

I know that you and others will not agree with a lot of what I and others post here, and rightly so. That is what makes this such a good forum to discuss topics of interest, but when it gets personal it gets WRONG, in my opinion.

I also will happily stand corrected for anything that I am proven wrong about and offer a full and sincere apology if wrong, so feel free to point out any faults that I have made so I can learn from them and correct any misconceptions I may have.

Enjoy the beach, I've got amendments to file:{:ugh:.

[Goffel]

Unstable Load.

Very clever with your wording....pity you never mentioned your bit about the "Guvmunt"........or how the white guys have taken either a package or retired........and how the BEEEE guys have suddenly realised that they have a job to do.

Ah.....so you also mention that it is perceived that the CAA guys are available to the highest bidder, (bribery).....To me that borders on you stirring the pot and falling just short of actually saying it yourself., (accountability, enforcement, exam papers).

Setrons comments at no time initially were directed at the CAA, thus your comments being way out of line.

Be a gentleman and admit you screwed up with your comments...no-one is perfect.

Goffel...:8

[unstable load]

Okay, I'll go there...

What happened to a lot of the white guys that were at DCA? Some were retiring age, and the balance of the ones that left, left why? Like it or not, Affirmative Action and BEE has done more to undermine business and general confidence in South Africa than it has benefitted the masses it was meant to assist who in many ways are worse off now than they were under apartheid, but that is for another thread.

Yes, the new guys did have a surprise, I believe. Civil aviation is a complex "business" to run at all, let alone effectively and anyone who steps up to the plate with little or no experience is going to get a steep learning curve.

Yes, I do mention that SOME of the people there are open to bribery, and I believe that I did not need to say it because it is a matter of public record that it is indeed the case and furthermore, I don't believe I have anything to apologise for by raising the point. Indeed, it is a fundamental part of the current mess we are in, because they will never have respectability and credibility as an organisation that is a controlling body if there is rot in the core.

You may note that I did not make a blanket accusation of ALL the CAA being crooked, merely some. I don't see how my reiterating something that is part of public knowledge can anyhow be construed as stirring, but if you see it that way, I apologise for misleading you.

No, Setron's comments were not directed at the CAA, however as the governing organisation the ultimate responsibility to fix it lies squarely at their door and no amount of apologising from me is going to change that.
Please note that I am not blaming CAA for the current state of affairs, it has been a joint effort with a general decay in standards and an opinion of "don't care" from some in the industry who are doing their level best to undermine/ignore the very regulations that are there to ensure that things go smoothly and safely.

If I have misled you further with this post, please be so kind as to draw my attention to it, and accept my apology in advance for being clever with the words.

I believe that civil aviation is at a point where it is teetering on the balance between anarchy and ridicule on one side and respectability and a return to the place it deserves in the world on the other.

A serious effort from ALL involved to step up to the plate and fix it is needed as a matter of urgency and my vote goes with fixing it.
I feel that this forum is a good place to start where I don't know who you are and thus do not care whether you are the head of the CAA or merely an apologist for them, and you don't know who I am beyond some irritating, opinionated a-hole who is dumping on the CAA, and this allows us to voice our opinions freely in the hope that someone who has the power to do something actually reads it and DOES SOMETHING before it becomes too difficult to fix.

Instead of telling me off for mentioning that the King has no clothes on, rather tell me how I can help beyond doing my best at my job.

Respectfully,

(seriously) Unstable Load.:ugh:

[Goffel]

your appology is accepted.......lets move forward and try to find the kings clothing.

Last I heard is that he was at Sandy Bay...:E

Goffel.....winging his way to Cape Town..:8

[unstable load]

Goffel,

You have my wholehearted agreement there. Say hi to Slaapstad for me, please.

[Setron]

After my first post, that started this thread, PF wrote:
Stand by for an interesting development fairly soon after this... You're gonna be sooooo surprised.


I then got this message:
You are currently banned from this thread. Reason given: Let's see how this run's without them having you to argue against...

So, I was punished for speeking my mind and put in "verbal jail"...:zzz:

Freedom is always the freedom of the other one!
Restricting freedom of speech shows fear and is the trademark of dictatorship.
Dictarorship has no place in todays times or in aviation and has noting to do with moderation or beeing professional.:=

I am not surprised at all, just very disappointed. I would not have expected this at PPRUNE. I guess it's all down to the integrity of the people given power to.
If this attitude and notion is still (or again) existing in my SA, then the problem is rooted deeper, much deeper than I initially expected.:(

Homework:
What is the legal level to fly over build up areas and people in SA (aka: Stadiums)?
What is the LCN of Rand airport and a 747?
What width of a r/w is considered safe to land an a/c in respect of it's wheelbase?

Obviously you can bypass any legislation as you please, if you know who to speak to...
Just makes a mockery out of the legislation, but who cares...
Some are just more equal before the law than others!

Now then PFy, go ahead and get this post deleted as well, while you are hurt again, because the truth sometimes hurts.

..and everybody thought you had died in Berlin in 1945!

Well guys,in case they allow you to read this, be careful in this arena, stick to the rules and keep it safe.

Good day, aux revoirs, allahu akbar, auf wiedersehen, tot seens...

[unstable load]

I am not surprised at all, just very disappointed. I would not have expected this at PPRUNE. I guess it's all down to the integrity of the people given power to.
If this attitude and notion is still (or again) existing in my SA, then the problem is rooted deeper, much deeper than I initially expected.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/sowee.gif



Dude,

Pprune is a BRITISH site. Either I am being really dense or you have your wires crossed.

I have been banned before from the whole site:(, so don't feel victimised. You need to remember that although this is a rumour network and anonymous, there is still a responsibility from the Owners to ensure it stays free of anything that may implicate or link them to a possible lawsuit
and this is where the moderators need to exercise their judgement. :ugh:
It could have been your naming names that got you pinged, it could have been that the mods thought the thread could get nasty or personal. Whatever it was, they have the final say here, like it or not.

No matter how much you dislike it, they have the rules to uphold, the same rules you agreed to follow when you joined up. Likening them to Hitler:= could get you tossed permanently, depriving us of some healthy discussion.:p

[chuks]

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Why start out in such a judgemental way if you want a positive dialogue?

There are some things I can do as a pilot to raise the general level of safety. There are many more things I think I know about African aviation that are out of my remit:

How it's regulated or not.

How some of my fellow professionals conduct their flights.

How well-maintained some of the aircraft are or not.

There isn't very much use to me raising points about stuff I cannot fix that are fairly well-known unless I just want to have a good moan.

Worse yet, if I start pointing the finger at some individual pilots expect things to go down to mud-slinging pretty quickly. It's probably best to just cite anonymous examples of "how not to do it" or else just stick to my own mistakes, of which I have a few to work from.

"Cowboy pilots" might be part of the problem but what about a system that allows them to fly that way? If someone knows they are not going to get away with doing silly things then they will probably behave and follow the rules. They might even get used to doing that and find life just goes so much more smoothly that way!

If you have a place that has no approaches, lousy weather and high terrain around it you already have a hazard. If you then add a lax attitude on the part of individual pilots (Minimums are for newbies; I know what I'm doing!), commercial pressure (Fred Bloggs seemed to make it in okay; why did you have to abort and return to base with a load of pissed-off passengers? The weather wasn't all that bad was it?) and regulators looking the other way (What, we should shut the airport down just for a few low clouds?), accidents are pre-progammed.

In the final analysis we as pilots just have to make that go/no-go decision and then take whatever comes from that, when many of us are not able to face quitting the job since there is nothing else on offer. You figure out a way to fix that problem and you will really be making progress.

Until then, most of this is a waste of bandwidth, either calling poor old Joe Bloggs a w*nker for converting a perfectly good airplane to a thin film of alloy and hairy strawberry jelly on a rock face or else defending him as one of the best who was just caught by blind fate. Joe Bloggs is just one part of a system that often does not work correctly in Africa!

Try sneaking into a place in the U.S.A. when the birds are walking, some field without any approaches. You will be haunted by the thought of some horrible little man from an F.A.A. GADO (General Aviation District Office) who might hunt you down like Inspector Javert, relentless and merciless, immune to fear, favour and bribery. Not always and everywhere but it does happen, when you shall weep bitter tears for having done a really great job being a cowboy, ignoring the rules. You got the trip done, the pax were happy, the boss is happy, you are screwed!

Not least, the boss is happy because he can watch from a safe distance as you, poor, alone and friendless are ripped to shreds by this FAA hell-hound while he, wealthy and lawyered-up can just say, "Well, Joe, you know I never wanted you to bust minimums there. I have no idea where you got that idea. Okay, I might have asked you if I needed to find me another pilot but I was just joking with you there, when you must have misunderstood. Don't forget to hand in your beeper; I need it for the new guy."

Africa, ah! Not the same at all, is it? We are left alone to figure out what is safe and what is not, when that is inherently unsafe in itself.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Yes and also.....
It would not anyway be Hitler...but Dr Joseph Goebbels, who was Minister of Propaganda...if you are to mention unmentionable names. If you are to deal in historical comparisons, and not nice ones, please make accuracy in the statements.

As long as there are cowboys out there that think they have to fuel their egos by flying stunts like using water as a touchdown spot or flying low over a full rugby stadion, there will always be some easy to impress youngsters/inexperienced pilots that feel it's OK to push the limit!

As long as there are cowboys out there that think they have to fuel their egos by to be a pilot, there will always be some youngsters/inexperienced pilots that feel its okay to push another pilots limit?

[Der absolute Hammer]

Yup! Just like me altough not a moderator and with variable pitch English!

[unstable load]

Point taken, suitcaseman.

Do however, remember that the site's rules still apply and regardless of whether the mods are Saffer or Naija this site WILL play be the current regs, unlike some in the Dark continent's aviation community.;)



Variable pitch Englisch,

I Like it, Hammer!:D

[PPRuNe Towers]

suitcaseman: Setron took his timeout because his start point enabled the outraged to deflect all discussion away from the actual problem - a truly desperate safety record.

Setron got timed out to see if the level of discussion regarding SA aviation safety could roughly approach the standard over on Gunship's forums. Now I personally think the discussions there found a comfy, nebulous blame game also - the modern instructor or modern instruction. I reckon that's far too simple and there's only one post I can remember that pointed to it being cultural - built in and pre programed somehow - when there is no over riding 'law' at the pilot's shoulder. That 'law' might be a legislator, strong SOP's, or a superior CP and training department working for the bigger aircraft and pro operators but there's something seriously amiss outside that sphere and it was painful watching days of it being wilfully ignored here with all the feigned, faux outrage.

Far better discussion elsewhere while you lot started fights amongst yourselves.

Rob

[Der absolute Hammer]

Media Release
SACAA’s response to the recent aircraft accidents in the general aviation sector. Click here (http://www.caa.co.za/press_files/2008/Index.htm) to see the latest media statements.

This below is from that media release.


A total of 103 accidents and 34 fatalities have been recorded from April – October 2008
compared to 102 accidents and 15 fatalities during the same period last year. However, the
5 year comparison table below indicates that, notwithstanding the growth in the aviation
industry, the rate of accident occurrences has been steady around 1,6% year on year which
makes the current year no different, other than the number of fatalities experienced this
month.
SA Civil Aviation Authority

If there is no common thread that can be action taken on by he CAA other than the fact that the pilots were inexperienced, then lack of experience before undertaking certain flying excercies or missions is precisely the the common thread that should be emphasised and that---at grass roots--the flying schools and the testing stages of flying! Inexperience and a failure to recognise that fact and take the necessary advice is part of....yes standy by...the teaching, testing of and insistence upon AIRMANSHIP! That is the common factor !

Now I retire to the trenches!

[Der absolute Hammer]

Rantings there may be but the fact if the matter is that it is perhaps not such a good idea for the SA CAA to publish a media release which in effect says that the accident statistic this year is just fine because it is the same as last year - only difference is number of people killed.
I bet the dead do not find this so entertaining as they fly about upstairs - or downstairs perhaps too?
I would hesitate very hard before making a ciritcism of the CAA flight ops department-so I do not do so-and I am no longer up to the speed I was in the past with that department. But I wonder these days if the boundaries have had to be changed to cater for cultural or LCDs. In the passed it was perfectkly acceptable for to fail a pilot on a test because of attitude even if his flying was up to the standard. This tough flexibility in CAA standards allowed instructors to be very hard indeed on students in terms of aviating discipline, planning and procedures.
Maybe the accident ratios are the same now as ever they were? But what I would have looked for with a new CEO is a stronger responding from the CAA to the recent disastrous safety record.-But then possible I live in cuckoo clock land?

[chuks]

Where is the professionalism in taking a series of fatal crashes as having any entertainment value at all? That's right out of line, I think.

I don't mind, enjoy even, winding up the tinfoil-hatters who show up on Jetblast but that, arguably, is what Jetblast is for! Here I would have thought people could back off, have a think about what we were taught about how to operate safely plus what experience in Africa has taught us and move forward in a reasoned way. Reading about this series of similar accidents seems to invite that.

I remember quite well how it was in Lagos, Nigeria when we would get the word at the "Watering Hole" of some accident or other. That was usually when we would just go into "it can't happen here" mode. There was no pattern emerging to a series of accidents that might apply to us; each one was taken to be something we in our charmed little circle were immune to. (Of course it certainly helped to be somewhat ratted when coming to this conclusion!) Next day this was all gone with the morning mists.

You could argue, I suppose, that part of the pattern was this "no pattern" mentality, that we just couldn't, perhaps still can't, connect the dots. If you do that sometimes you see a trail of dots leading straight to yourself, of course! I know I sure did that, when I took due care to move to another place entirely.

Perhaps part of that is just aging, maturing even. You finally start taking proper rest, reviewing the P.O.H. even when you don't have your annual check coming up, really using stuff such as CRM that you have been taught, not just going along in your little African bubble as if the outside world didn't apply at all...

There are many things we can do as individual pilots that will empower us to operate more safely that really do not take much time at all. Maybe a bit to start with, making that change of position, moving off the spot the dots are heading for but after that it's just a little bit of attention every day, just a few minutes. It sure isn't as much fun as "Kick the tires, light the fires, :mad: the weather; let's go!" but you might last longer.

[chuks]

You wrote that you derived entertainment from this discussion, without being at all specific about which part that was.

I don't find it entertaining at all to see people ranting, but perhaps that's just me. To have a serious discussion about safety issues is something useful. To just watch fellow pilots screeching and flinging doo-doo at one another is not really my thing, sorry.

The guy who started the thread got off on the wrong foot by loosely using the term "cowboys" for some people who have died in accidents. That is bound to upset others. Then he ignored that very basic rule of thumb, "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!" Why not take the hint and go back to change the title of the thread when it became clear that it was offensive, even if he was too thick to have that idea from the start?

You know, a loose assumption you might be making is that I think I am really bright when it might just be that I only think that I am brighter than you are! You know, just going by some of what I read here, that is all.

Just because this site is free of charge doesn't mean that is a standing invitation to just waste the space! Why not try to have a productive discussion about how to improve safety rather than just watch the show as entertainment while things spiral out of control? What, the Jerry Springer Show does African Aviation? If anyone is being snobbish doing that it would be you!

[Der absolute Hammer]

That was not a rant.

It is a pity that further sensible input from South African flying instructors is not coming forth.

This indicates possibly.
1. They do not use Pprune.
2. They do not give a damn anyway.

Now for an inflammatory observation.
I see that many of white South African flying instructors - especially in Johannesburg areas-this days-are Afrikaans speakers and all are on the way up the flying ladder- so as to say, no dedicated instructoring.
Let the CAA state on accident reports the first language of pilot so that communications as with ATC may be determined. Further - this helps in determination of cultural attitudes to flying training.

[chuks]

They might be busy working.

A lot of this isn't rocket science and it can get sort of tedious trying to restate the bleedin' obvious, just because...

[Hot Shots]

Der absolute Hammer, what the hell has language got to do with accidents!!! Are you implying that just because of your language you are more or less prone to make an accident!! Language definately don't make a good pilot.

All South African cpl and atpl pilots need to do an English proficiency test. You never hear any Afrikaans on the radio giving or reading back clearances/instructions. You might hear the occasional greeting, but that is it.

I do agree with the lack of interest of the instruction though.

H.S.

[unstable load]

Hoy Shot,

It could be that if a student is particularly weak in Afrikaans and has an Afrikaans instructor that something could get lost in translation is what Hamer may have meant.
I really don't think that he was off on the German superiority kick.:=

[Der absolute Hammer]

Thank you unstable load - a generous statement for me which I will not deny.
As for you Hot Shots -Language has a hell of a lot to do with accidents - reference as a minimum example the Teneriffe/KLM. So please do not be so simple as to ask such a question as what has language got to do with accidents. I agree language do not make a good pilot but a pilot may be a safer pilot in proportion to his fluency in English-especially in the very rapid changing state of aviation today.

To teach the attitudes and outlooks of safe aviation is a complex task and it needs language comprehension of a near colloquial level.
If there is an Afrikaans speaking instructor and an English speaking student then it is very difficult for complete and colloquial cockpit communication - and the other way around too?
Perhaps this is not the case but I have found no instructors with English as their first language who are completely proficient in Afrikaans and no Afrikaans instructors who are completely fluent in English-but the level of English of the Afrikaans instructors is better than the level of Afrikaans of the English instructors.

The best thing that perhaps can be happening is for the CAA to make a massive public campaign to make very public the accisents that have happened and to make other pilots think and plan before they attempt that for which they are not qualified.

[bond7]

Hammer once again,

You lost me...you must be an Aerospace engineer/Nasa test pilot/Know it all/!!! Write an aviation book or something for crying out loud...we/I would be sure happy to line up and get your autograph...

Ding dong!!!:E

[126,7]

Lieber Hammer

Was Du so ausfürhlich auf die Muttersprache des Fluglehrers zurück führst ist absoluter quatsch. In Südafrika sprechen die Deutsch, Englisch und Afrikaans sprechenden Einwohner fast alle gleich und ich bin sicher das nichts während der Ausbildung in der Übersetzung verloren geht.
Weiterhin ist es noch mehr quatsch wenn Du behauptest das der afrikaanssprechende Fluglehrer kein Interesse in seinem Beruf hat weil er, wie Du meinst, auf dem Weg nach oben ist. Ist das nicht jeder junge Fluglehrer? Ganz davon abgesehen ob er Deutsch, Xhosa oder was auch immer für ne Muttersprache hat.

Denk mal bisschen nach. Volltrottel!

For the rest of the Ppruners that are not fluent in Hammer's language:
Basically what I said was that its pure absurdity that a person's mother tongue has anything to do with said person's dedication to the job. Regardless of which field we work in. Also, South Africans from different language backgrounds all speak the same. Its getting really difficult to distinguish wether a youngster these days is Afrikaans, German or Xhosa speaking at home. So I doubt things get lost in translation during instruction.

[chuks]

I can say that, yes, the English spoken here in Algeria by the South Africans is all to a very good standard, when some of them must have had Afrikaans as their mother tongue. Xhosa speakers, well, these guys all seem to be a uniform shade of pink so that probably doesn't come into it. Anyway I haven't noticed any clicking sounds.

I don't think that their language or professional dedication either, really comes into the root causes of this obvious problem with African accidents.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Thank you for your noble German.
In your English translation..I absolutely agree with you...mother tongue has nothing to do with dedication. I do not think I ever said that it did. My concern and argument had more to do with fluency of communication through the training than anything else.
So I suppose we let the cowboys be cowboys because there seems to be a lack of suggestions here on this thread as to what to do to change that?

[unstable load]

Hammer,

Sadly I feel that you are right. This has degenerated to a farce. Sad, because there are a lot of folks on this forum who could contribute so much to trying to get to the bottom of this mess, but we all too often end up like this.

Fly safe, guys and if you are determined to become a statistic, then make it a positive one by contributing to the numbers that do ther jobs professionally and correctly, making aviation the great business it is.

Mina hambha manje.

[chuks]

How long does one have to spend in Africa before one becomes abnormal, then?

I don't think a normal person would even find this low level of discourse entertaining, let alone the main topic under discussion. That said, yes, I seem to recall a few hangar-flying sessions where we would have more than a few grim laughs over the (non-fatal, usually) misfortunes of others. Not ME, of course, just all of my friends! So the idea that you, Suitcaseman, might find this whole ball of wax entertaining seemed plausible, somehow, especially since what you wrote could be read in exactly the way it was written.

On the other hand I have met a few normal pilots who didn't last very long in Africa before running away back to more normal surroundings. You know our abnormally normal "black-catting" in the bar about how many corpses were spotted on the Sunday trip to the beach: that sort of thing, when they would just curl up like a boiled prawn in a little ball of wounded sensibilities.

The part that really chafes is that there just doesn't seem to be much forward progress in these discussions, not much drawing of obvious conclusions but just a lot of either drooling compassion for yet another unfortunate whose luck has mysteriously run out or else huffing and puffing about lack of skill or professionalism on the part of same.

The one is just fatalism, often fatal in itself, and the other is finger-pointing, well known to be anti-safety.

Please, someone, anyone, point out anything that has worked in Africa continent-wide with coöperation at the highest level. In your dreams, Sunshine! ICAO cannot even get basic adherence to SARPS, when offers of help with that usually go ignored at the highest level. Meanwhile, reasonable suggestions of "best operating practices" at the very lowest level also go ignored, at least until something bad finally happens as predestined.

Like many African countries themselves, this is one seriously fragmented continent. A basket of crabs looks like the Life Guards on parade by comparison.

I do appreciate the notification of African accidents found here, along with the approximate circumstances. That usually is about all, though.

[Goffel]

As much as this particular thread has lost it's course and gone off in another direction, let me try to put a couple of cents to it.

I personally have found that the flight planning of flights, (A/C under 20000 pounds), have deteriorated completely.

There is no pride in what these guys are doing, let alone the flouting of the law.

Example......pilot going to Margate....zero met, zero nav log...zero load sheet........zero map...zero everything.....OH...and a PPL at that....(oops, did I mention charter......Nah.......he works for the company as a tea boy).

But he did have his PPL mate with him to show him the way.

Another example....flight from PE......zero loadsheet...zero map...zero fuel monitoring....(oh....had enough fuel on board as he knew that he was over-weight on take off)......not one, but two comm pilots.

Oh yes, before I forget, he had two, yes, two GPS's to show him the way and was very proud of this...(and this was a company flight).

I watched a CAA inspector being told by the one of the pilots to stop wasting their time as he was sure that the inspector would not know the difference between a car licence or a pilot licence.

Time pilots stopped their uppy attitudes, and took some pride and time in their planning....Over-weight is over weight.....

Pity CAA accident department does not put a couple of photo's of dead peopl on prune for all to see...might knock some sense into people when they see that when you are dead, you are dead for very long time.

This thread could go on and on....but nothing will change until the attitude of pilots changed.....if everyone stood together, then the operator will have to change.

Goffel...ja boet.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Goffel...

A sad but an interesting post.
There is a time, not so long ago, when the CAA Inspector could and would have pulled the licence of the pilot concerned in your story - for lack of pre flight planning as a start.
The authority of the Authority may perhaps be a little part of the problem here?

[chuks]

The fire warning bell in the Twotter didn't test. Instead of blowing our ears off it just went "Clonk!"

My 250-hour co-pilot looked at me with a certain hopeful air, as if I might have a spare fire warning bell in my flight bag. Nope!

(Now, actually I was cheating, since I was pretty sure I already knew the answer.) I asked him to get out the MEL and look up the bell, telling him that if there was no entry for it then we were grounded, eh? Ooh, really piling on the pressure.

It turned out that the bell (Surprise!) is something you can do without as long as the red fire warning lights in the pull handles work. Anyway I reached back over my shoulder and fiddled with it until it sort of rang, just so we wouldn't have to snag it.

Well, it beats hell out of just growling to an impressionable young man that we don't need no steenking bell, that we are going anyway. Wrong message but one I used to get all the time when I was in his shoes.

Another time recently we did two (2) aborts just because of some stupid door warning light that we were 99.99% sure was just a mis-rigged switch. First they did that hasty tweaking of it, when it had checked okay but come on just before V1. The second time, ditto, when I told them to now take their time fixing it right; I was going for lunch to reduce the old stress levels.

I told the Chief Engineer that, yeah, I probably was being a bit picky there but how would I look if that big old main door came flopping open just as I rotated? I NEED to be famous as the guy who ignored the door warning light because he knew better? DeHavilland must have put that system on the airplane for a reason, right?

We can just build a safer way of operating one step at a time. It would be nice if teams of ICAO experts swooped down to sort out our African problems for us with coöperation at the very highest national levels but until that happens I guess it's up to us. And no fair for telling Management I am a wally for not taking a trip, okay? ("Me, Boss, me! I will do that trip/fly that bird/take that load without leaving anything behind!" Ever seen that one happen? No, me neither...)

[OneDay21]

I recently finished my training for a PPL and am furthering my studies to CPL.

I am new to the aviaition industry but wish to voice my opinion on a few key issues related to this thread.

I have had training with multiple instructors and to ME it seems there is not a constant method of practice to instruct a wannabe pilot.
During the course of my studies I encountered a instructor that insisted the only way to land with a crosswind was using, ONLY, the crabbing technique.
On another occasion i was shown what the plane was "really" capable of, defying everything i had learnt in the technical about the constraints of the A/C.
On another occasion i was told to land even though i had not been cleared because " I'm a regular so its fine, they understand".

I dont want this coming across as a rant as it is not, I have utter respect for any instructor as I can understand how it is a talent in itself to become one. I do feel though that although this is not day to day teachings if subjecting someone who is easily influenced it could cause " if he can do it i can do it" mentality.

And when talking about the roots of the problem I think the training is as root as you can get..

OneDay

[unstable load]

OneDay21,

I have utter respect for any instructor as I can understand how it is a talent in itself to become one. I do feel though that although this is not day to day teachings if subjecting someone who is easily influenced it could cause " if he can do it i can do it" mentality.


It is a talent to instruct/teach properly and well. The guy that was so blase' abut the radio work pre-landing with you may not have been a day to day thing for you, but for the instructor it has become the norm as he is in and out that field eneough that the tower has got used to the fact that he has absolutely no discipline or respect for the regs and procedure and work around him.

You may have escaped the influence from him that it is perfectly OK to short-cut procedures, but the next guy may not, and HE may be the one that has a mid-air with you one day because the same instructor passed the message on that radio work is not really that big a deal, after all the tower know what's going on.
Except, the tower won't know what's going on UNLESS SOMEONE TELLS THEM. A bit of a Catch-22??

During the course of my studies I encountered a instructor that insisted the only way to land with a crosswind was using, ONLY, the crabbing technique.


Most likely because it was the only way he knew how or rather, had actually perfected. Remember, instructors are people and the ego is an important facet of your instruction. An instructor who is weak in a particular field may not be up to telling you he doesn't know so he will alter the perception that the way that he does know is the only/best/preferred way.
Ditto the student's ego. All too often the instructor is a short jump ahead of his student in terms of actual hours and experience, and it is all too easy to adopt the mindset that anything he can do I can do better/faster/heavier/with less fuel etc etc.

I take my hat off to you for your post and the fact that you have identified one of the major players in this issue...

And when talking about the roots of the problem I think the training is as root as you can get..


Now, remember what you have said and get out there and spread the word. :D:ok::D
All those guys that will call you a wimp/pu55ie/etc are WRONG!!:mad::=

[vref+10]

Could the problem perhaps be that the overall experience level of instructors, particularly at the ab-initio level, be part of the problem? Not really their fault though as this is often the only route to aquiring the hours and experience needed to qualify for that first "airline" job. Leaves the poor student at a disadvantage though as the instructor does not have a wide variety of non -GF/Circuit/Navex/Day VMC experiences to pass on to students thereby improving airmanship and decision making.

Also, being human, if instruction is a means to an end how good will the instructor ultimately be? To excel at something one must have a passion for it.

Apologies in advance to all the dedicated instructors out there who do not fit the above categories.

[OneDay21]

My post might have come across as a generalisation of all instructors and i'd like to correct that.
Although I may have encountered this I have also encountered great instructors who have a talent and drive for instructing and who put, beyond everything else, safety first.

I just feel there should be a standard followed and more importantly ENFORCED, it should not be a student who brings these key issues up but rather the flightschool/CAA responsible for allowing that instructor to instruct.

I have indeed changed flight schools when I was in this situation and encountered it at the second flight school as well where i changed instructors to one that I feel was better suited.

I'm shotting myself in the foot bringing up these issues when in the end I want to become an instructor myself, never the less, rather an instructor preserving the industry than destroying it...

OneDay

[Hot Shots]

OneDay, I admire you for sharing your story.

Instructors are the first line of defence against bad airmanship. As a student you do look at the instructor to teach you the "full package" that includes airmanship and safety conscious decision making. If they are lacking those skills themselves, it will take quite a strong student to recognise it and make the obvious more mature and safe decision to rather move to some place else. If you can do that, I recon you will get quite far in aviation.

Also agree with your last post that you can not generalize. There are some really good instructors out there. In the same breath, there are some bad students as well, that no matter how hard the instructor try to teach him, he "knows best". That is just as big a problem.

Also, if you get to a senior position (Captain, Chief Pilot, etc.) you must lead by example. I have seen to many times that as soon as some guys strap on that fourth bar, they turn into this know-it-all a:mad:oll and do whatever he thinks is best, regardless of the SOP, company policy, etc. and try to show his F/O how good he is.

So the problem is bigger than just one part of flying.

H.S.

[unstable load]

The "blame" of this thread seems to be directed at instructors not doing enough for safety

Not all, but sadly too many, I think.


I'm shotting myself in the foot bringing up these issues when in the end I want to become an instructor myself, never the less, rather an instructor preserving the industry than destroying it...


Quite the contrary!! The mere fact that you recognised an issue in your own training and remedied it shows that you are approaching this from the right perspective. You did not blunder on regardless with a substandard instructor and for that, I think you will do fine.

[jab]

Having done instruction in SA and in the US, I find one of the major differences is in standardization. Since we are stuck with a system that forces people with 200 hours into instruction in order to gain experience, the FAA have made it a bit easier by having Practical Test Standards. These books are readily available and it makes it very clear what is required from students, instructors and examiners. I have done a few flight tests in the US and at all times I knew exactly what I was required to demonstrate and there were no shortcuts. My ATP test took 2.6 hours with a couple of refuellings because there were required maneuvers which needed to be completed before the examiner could legally sign me off. When in doubt, refer to the PTS. The PTS makes it a lot easier for a young and inexperienced instructor to find out what s/he is required to teach and how.

I have done even more flight tests in SA and the standards have sometimes been variable with no recourse to something like the PTS. When I did my flight instructors rating in SA, there was no syllabus and no "flight instructors handbook" to study from. Aeronav academy had published a book that was already old when I read it but I could find nothing published by the CAA. I have spent a lot of time outside SA recently so that may have changed, someone please correct me if it has.

I like the SA system of having different grades of instructor and I believe a new instructor should work under supervision of a more experienced one, it promotes safety and ensures compliance with the training standards, if the supervision is actually done. When an instructor shows contempt for authority or does not teach all that is required, what kind of pilot do you think that student will turn out to be? Proactive and responsible supervision will go a long way towards correcting that kind of attitude by catching it before it becomes a problem resulting in "cowboy" behaviour. I am off topic in this post as the original poster was lambasting Scully but the thread seems to have drifted towards flight instruction. I personally find nothing wrong in anything Scully has done and do not consider him to be a "cowboy" in any way.

Another big difference between the US and SA is the emphasis on accountability. If I, as the instructor, authorized a student or pilot to fly and they then had an accident or violated airspace, I was going to be answering some difficult questions from the FAA regarding the instruction I gave that pilot. Generally, the FAA treat you as an adult and a professional until proven otherwise and if you screw up you will answer for it, possibly by losing your license or facing criminal charges. I find the SA CAA to be quite toothless in disciplining those who transgress and until that changes there will be a continuing disregard of authority because there are no consequences to speak of.

I do not intend this as a rant against the CAA and I have had some really good instruction in SA but there is obviously a problem when looking at the amount of accidents recently. I would like to see the flight instruction industry in SA become more standardized and that will need to start with practical guidelines from the CAA. The only way for the CAA to garner some needed respect is to have and uphold standards and exercise the "authority" they have.

[unstable load]

jab,

Just out of curiosity, do you use the PTS for the basis of your instruction in South Africa? I know it's a foreign standard, but I was curious as to what if any effect it has on your SA experience.
In the absence of any standard, surely a foreign one is better than nothing?

Just wondering.

[jab]

Unstable Load

I don't use the PTS in SA but I do keep it handy and show it to students so that they are aware of it and I let them know how they can get one. Flight instruction everywhere shares the fundamental goal of teaching someone to fly and it is just the approach to it that may vary. Flying is flying, any experience helps and the same goes for instruction in my opinion.

I have my own bastardised training manual which I first started in SA and then added to in the US. I have to be very careful because there are such different ways of doing the maneuvers in the different systems. For example, the quick stop is done slightly differently under the FAA versus JAA systems and the JAA don't like it if you do the American version. Small stuff but it will make a difference when your student goes for his flight test if you have taught him incorrectly. This is not a problem when teaching within one system but it is something I need to concentrate on and I can fall back on the PTS.

There are standards in SA flying and in my travels I have generally found that standard to be quite high in comparison with pilots from other countries.

I have not done a lot of instruction and I would prefer someone more qualified to comment in this thread. It is my impression that the flight schools have different standards because the CAA has not set them clearly or enforced them enough. I think the training industry needs guidance and discipline from the CAA and thus far I have not seen it. I hope that changes.

[chuks]

I have all the FAA Flight Instructor licences: Flight Instructor Airplane Instrument Multi-engine Gold Seal plus Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument. (This "Gold Seal" thingy is just a yellow FAA logo on the FI licence to show that you have GI plus an 80% pass rate for your students, worth having as a marketing tool.)

It is so much easier in the States, using the PTS booklets to show the students exactly what they must do, the minimum required. We try to go beyond that, of course but at least there's no confusion about whether my way of doing a short-field takeoff, for instance, is correct or just "my way".

There has been a big problem in the States. Maybe it has been fixed now but it was so, about 20 years ago, that bottom-feeder schools would just run overseas students through with the bare minimum number of hours to be tested by in-house examiners and sent back overseas with an FAA licence that wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. I have had co-pilots with FAA ATP licences who were incapable of doing a circuit in a Cessna 404! When I would ask them how they got the ticket the same schools always seemed to be mentioned, with 5 hours in a single, one hour in a twin, the practical test, "Finish palaver!" All for $5 thousand. Disgraceful.

This would totally devalue the FAA licence, since you cannot tell who is whom. Can I fly or am I a plonker? Who knows? With a British CAA ATPL, well, at least you know the guy got through a tough ride! You do still get the odd loser but nothing like so dire as some of the products of our American free-enterprise system.

I think this may have been sorted out after it finally became too obvious what was going on.

Most of my flying has been done in Africa, Nigeria and now Algeria, with training given mostly by Brits or Europeans. It is striking how many variations there can be on a theme.

For instance, the straight-ahead stall in a Part 25 Transport Category airplane is normally done to "the first indication of a stall". So, power off, decelerate at 1 knot/second while achieving a certain positive pitch attitude, stall horn or stick shaker, "Stall!", full power, smooth pitch over to level flight, accelerate, "Stall recovery complete." Well, not always! I have had people wanting to see a full-breaking stall in the simulator, when that sim doesn't have to do whatever the airplane does in that regime. (And, no, I don't want to know what it does in that regime because we are not going past the stick pusher to find out! Maybe it does an unrecoverable deep stall.) I don't know, the guy just likes to see the full stall, the way we do it in a Cessna 152. You cannot bring out the book because there is no book, no PTS.

I will be going in the spring to do a JAR Flight Instructor course. It should be interesting to get an inside look at how instructors are trained, having only seen the end product.

When it comes to South African pilots, yes, they seem to be to a pretty good standard just judging by operating in their close vicinity (Just not too close, please!). That said, it is easy to see that if you continue without proper supervision you will end up, umm, Africanised. Good luck with that one.