PPL newbie questions

[pronane]

hi lads,

Read through a few pages of threads but couldn't find what I was looking for so thought best to post, apologies if this has been asked a million times already.
I have a couple of questions about acquiring a PPL licence and some general ones too! I always wanted to be a pilot as a child(I spose every child does :)) , anyway through work I got the "first free flying lesson" and thought this could be the start. I did my trial lesson and I am giving it serious consideration, given the time that it can be completed over etc.

Is it possible to buy the books for the 7 or 8 exams somewhere online second hand like ebay? Not sure what these books are called if so, as I didnt know what the titles were to actually search for!!

Once getting the PPL how difficult and expensive is it to get the Instrument rating, night flying etc?! Why is it you can fly friends and rent a plane but not "fly for hire" i.e. fly for someone and get paid?! How difficult and expensive is it to go from a PPL to commercial, is it easy to get work afterwards and whats the return on investment as in how long is it before it starts "paying off"?! whats the most difficult exam and whats the pass mark for them all?!

Finally, the instructor I had today advised me never get a share of a plane or think about buying one (i couldnt afford that anyway!!) as the cost of keeping a plane on the ground is huge.....what about if you buy a share etc, how much is it then, surely its shared, and how often within a year would you expect to have use of the plane in say a 8 person share. And last but not least hte most naive question of all, I would love the idea of being able to fly to france or Eire for a weekend, but rent on a plane is huge, is there anyway to do this cheaply or on a 3 day rate or something?!

Thanks for any advice guys and appreciate that some of the questions are a bit silly!

Paul

[DavidHoul52]

Not silly questions at all!

Not one of your questions I know, but in retrospect the best way to do your PPL is to do a good deal of it - at least to solo standard intensively in a foreign country where it's cheap. Book a holiday.

Doing it once a week or so here in the UK is expensive and often extremely frustrating due to weather and other cancellations.

Come back to the UK to do the last bit to get used to the conditions here.

Considering the total cost of your books is going to be less than that of one lesson in the air I wouldn't bother with ebay.

Also don't bank on 45 hours to get your PPL... 60 hours is about average.

[tuscan]

Some schools offer a ppl starter pack at discounted rates. This might include all the books, flying case, protractor and other bits and pieces you will need. Just ask before you embark on training.

I know Highland Flying School in Inverness were doing this. They also do intensive courses with accomodation and the weathers generally good up there.

Highland Flying School - PPL Starter Packs (http://www.highlandflyingschool.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=27)

heres a link to their starter pack deal...

Always remember, there are no daft questions, just daft answers.

Good luck

[DavidHoul52]

I did a post-PPL course with them. Great crowd and lovely setting.

Nearby Nairn has the best weather in Scotland (faint praise!)

You fly to the Orkneys on your cross country qualifier.

Best to go by car - else you can be stuck kicking your heels around the airport for hours on end between lessons. Inverness is your usual drab UK market town (recently made a city I believe), but there's lots else to do in the vacinity.

[pronane]

thanks lads much appreciated on the detailed responses!

The package thing looks good that one for 500 looks good, but I do live in london so there would be extra cost in getting up etc. Can you do 5 hour training all in one go?

Where would you guys suggest doing it abroad and how do you prove that you did all the hours abroad?

Also in the words of homer, there are no stupid questions just stupid people! I think that was homer...!

[Rightbase]

If there is a chance you can afford it, and you have always wanted to do it, then go for it.

To start with don't worry about anything except whether you like flying, and like it enough to keep paying for each lesson.

I have been told (and I believe it) that to make a small fortune in aviation you have to start with a large one. So don't consider investing - just pay and walk away after each flight.

You will be doing something you always wanted to, and after a while there will be fewer unknowns in your risk analysis and you might decide that an investment strategy is right for you - or you might not.

[tuscan]

Going abroad I would look at Canada, very professional and not the factory, automated style of teaching I have heard of in the States. Great rates too. I did some flying with Calgary Flying Club

The Calgary Flying Club (http://www.calgaryflyingclub.com/)

Lots of mountains too, unlike Florida. Actually weather a bit more like UK.

Direct flights from uk to Calgary, training at Springbank about an hour away.

Also £ to $us isn`t great right now.

London to Inverness should not be a problem, cheap flights every day.

[pronane]

cheers tuscan, im assuming thats canadian dollars on the site:
The Calgary Flying Club (http://www.calgaryflyingclub.com/rates.html)

Am i right that it costs $60 an hour for training or is that an hourly rate?!

[flyingman-of-kent]

I am a great believer in learning at the airport / airfield that you can get to most easily as once you get into it you should be looking to be at the airport up to 4 to 5 days a week, be it a few hours after work for ground school or a quick lesson after work. To drive a liong way to be stuffed by the weather is very boring, apart from the oppurtunity to learn ground school stuff.

With regards buying shares in planes, forget even thinking about this until you have a couple of hundred hours or so - you will know so much more about what you need, want and how to get it.

Most schools will rent you a plane for a day or so (or a week or so), but will probably want a commitment of a reasonable number of hours to justify the plane not being available to them. But the important thing to remember is that you only pay for time in the air (this may be worked out with time to taxi added or charged on a Hobbs meter). Cabair for instance operate in slots of two hours. So if you take the plane last slot the night before, and return it for second slot the next morning you would be reasonably expected to have used it for an hour a slot flying time. An hour will get you over to France or Belgium for the night, although of course you cant enjoy too much wine/beer once there.

If you want to go for longer, look to hire the plane mid week when it is quieter, weekends tend to be premium times. Or what I have done a few times is hire the plane on a Friday afternoon, then returned it the next Friday having put about 22 hours on it - great fun, a weeks trip to Spain, Balerics, South of France etc. The school gets a reasonable return on the plane, and you get to have a lot of fun. Share the flying with a pilot of similar experience, and share the cost. If you swap PIC at every airport, and plan to do similar legth legs each of you logs about the ssame time, roughly half the total. You also both get to put the new airport in your log book.

But I fear all this is way ahead of you - getting the PPL is the first step. See if you can get to know other student pilots of around the same experience as you, then you can compare notes, learn from each other and generally progress together. You might be lucky and your instructor may introduce to you people or you will meet someone on a club trip perhaps. Teaming up will help you learn much faster, and you can all go on trips and share the flying but get twice the experiecne. Once you have this, fly around a bit hopefully with the same person who you learnt with if this worked for you. Get 20 to 25 hours under your belt then think about the IMC. This will be hard work, but teach you loads. It will tighten your flying to such a degree that you wont beleive. It may make your head explode a few time, but once you get it done it is such a fantastic acheivement. Then fairly soon after, perhaps towards this time of year do your night rating. Make sure you go up on and around bonfire nioght, to see the whole of the south east of England sparkling is fantastic - fly from display to display, enjoy!

Once you have this set of qualifications, get flying hours - go places, visit different airports, countries, just go fly. Then see if you want to go commercial. This is a whole new ball game, but you may be best advise to get your PPL and think then.

If you go and fly abroad, to answer your question, the proof of hours flown is recorded in your log book, which you get the instructor to sign every now and then. Also keep detailed receipts from the flying schools as these will be further proof should it be needed ever. If you stick at once school for most lessons they will sign off certain acheivements and the hours flown need to be right for this to happen. So the logbook is the important record here.

Good luck, and enjoy!

[pronane]

cheers tuscan!

I think my question may not have made it through last time :(

Are those rates in canadian dollars and are they hourly? Does that mean 1 hour training for your PPL is 60$ plus the $8 for fleet surcharge or am I being thick?

So for an airfield based around london, how much would you reckon renting for a couple of days would be? I didn't realise it was the actual time spent in the air - thanks for that!

It is way ahead of me flyingman, but to be honest, it is a key factor in the decision of whether or not I should go ahead and do the PPL. If I get my PPL then I want to get it cos I will continue to use it and fly. The only other concern I would have is flying with someone of the same experience, I don't think I would find myself in the situation where I would meet someone to fly with!

[BackPacker]

Is it possible to buy the books for the 7 or 8 exams somewhere online second hand like ebay? Not sure what these books are called if so, as I didnt know what the titles were to actually search for!!

The most well known book are by Jeremy Pratt or Trevor Thom. They each wrote a series of books. Look at what the PPL starter pack at for instance AFE Online contains and search for those books on eBay. For most books it's not problem if they're a few years old. Aerodynamics doesn't change much over time. But the one book you'll eventually want to buy new is "Air Law".

Once getting the PPL how difficult and expensive is it to get the Instrument rating, night flying etc?!

Night rating is five hours and if you do an intensive course in Florida for instance, can usually be included in the 45 hours for your PPL. It's fun and not that difficult. The IR is at least another 45 hours on top of your PPL, and IR lessons are generally a bit more expensive than PPL lessons (due to the higher required qualification of the instructor) so budget at least 10 KUKP for this. However, an IR is only required if you want serious go-places capability. And serious go-places ambition requires money and time in any case.

Why is it you can fly friends and rent a plane but not "fly for hire" i.e. fly for someone and get paid?!

ICAO rules. But also the fact that if a passenger pays you, he expects on-time performance and tighter tolerances in your flying.

How difficult and expensive is it to go from a PPL to commercial, is it easy to get work afterwards and whats the return on investment as in how long is it before it starts "paying off"?!

The biggest expense for your CPL or higher is that you have to have 250 hours experience as pilot in command. That's why you see all these "hour building" packages being offered. The CPL course itself is something like 20 hours so not all that much in the grand scheme of things.

ROI... The only rather consistent statistic is that an ATPL costs roughly 100.000 euros and most pilots takes it several years to pay it back, while living on minimum expenses. For CPLs, it all depends what sort of job you can land, how often you can fly etc. etc.

There's a saying in aviation: How do you make a small sum of money in aviation? Start with a large one.

Finally, the instructor I had today advised me never get a share of a plane or think about buying one (i couldnt afford that anyway!!) as the cost of keeping a plane on the ground is huge.....what about if you buy a share etc, how much is it then, surely its shared, and how often within a year would you expect to have use of the plane in say a 8 person share.

Don't buy a plane now. Get your PPL first, rent for a couple of years to see what kind of flying you do. And only if you find that your type of flying is rather consistent, and is more than approximately 50 hours per year (which is quite a lot) consider buying a plane or a share. And, obviously, buy one that suits your style of flying.

Most of my flying today is aerobatics. Something I would not have expected two years ago when I did my PPL.

And last but not least hte most naive question of all, I would love the idea of being able to fly to france or Eire for a weekend, but rent on a plane is huge, is there anyway to do this cheaply or on a 3 day rate or something?!

Most planes are rented by the flying hour, so if the plane sits in France doing nothing while you go sightseeing, you pay nothing. The only caveat is that flying clubs/schools did not buy their planes to have them sit idle on the tarmac in France, so they require a certain minimum number of hours, on average, if you take them for multiple days. If you're generally a good bloke to your school/club, this minimum number is normally negotiable. Or you might get a good deal with a private owner who doesn't need his own plane all that often.

Most people who take an aircraft for a few days actually do a little touring, one or two short-ish flights per day, a different airport/hotel/city each night.

[MerlinV8]

I agree with you shouldn't buy shares in a plane at this early stage until you figure out what type of flying you will be doing, you might end up loving aerobatics and not flying cross-country so much, therefore a different A/C required.

In saying that, I have known many student pilots who have bought share's in aircraft that are used as line aircraft at aero-clubs and flying schools, the advantage of this is you get a very cheap hourly rate, students and instructors using the aircraft pay for the planes maintainance cost's and insurance etc etc, I'm not saying this work's for everyone but I do know people who have done it quite successfully, for example I know someone who bought a CT4 Airtrainer share for $2700, did 100hrs CPL training for $85hr + instructor costs and it was aerobatic aswell, that was a few years ago now and a very good deal at the time but it gives you an idea of what is possible.

Just something to think about

[tuscan]

The $60 canadian is for the instructor so just add that to the hourly rate of whatever aircraft you want, include the $8 and your there.

The clubhouse in Springbank is fantastic and your only about half an hour from the edge of the Rockies and Banff is just a few minutes more.
You can get a mountain rating thrown into the PPL.
Some of my most exciting flying was done there through the canyons, amazing......

Accomodation can be found in the town of Cochrane which is nearby, If you did decide to go over just PM me if you need any local info, I still have contacts in the area.

You can do a twin rating at very good rates. If you call them they will send you a pack.

I know one guy who did his CPL with them and part of the deal was that they quaranteed him a FI position upon completion.
If youve no uk commitments and fancy an adventure!!!!!!! The standard of living is much better there.
Calgary International is 1 hour drive, 25mins flight depending on runway in use.

I agree with some of the others, forget about a group right now, just make your choice and get started with your training. When youve completed that you will have a better idea of your interests and requirements.

Good Luck:ok:

[Airbus Girl]

pronane, not a "lad" but I can add some comments if you like....

2 ways to do a PPL - fly in the UK, at your local airfield, whilst studying for and taking your exams. Benefits: you get to know your local field, easy commute, and you will probably hire from there when you get your licence. Or you can fly abroad - USA is usually cheap, not so much now you don't get so many $$$ to the £££. Australia and South Africa are other options. If you do a search here on pprune you will find various references particularly to the American schools. If you go to google and type in "jaa ppl usa" you will get the idea. You can see for yourself the costs involved. If going down that route I suggest you start studying prior to going out, maybe have a couple of lessons at your local school then go abroad for around 4 weeks. That way you are very likely to get your licence completed and come back with your JAA PPL.

Shares - I would say it is a good idea to stick with the aircraft you learnt on initially, until you are very comfortable with it, then go do some dual in other aircraft types. Having a share in an aircraft can be good fun if you fly regularly and find a good group.

Try picking up a copy of Pilot or Flyer magazine.
Go talk to the instructors at your local flying school about PPLs and CPLs.

Be aware that gaining your PPL is really gaining a licence to learn. Its a bit like passing your driving test - you reach a minimum standard but you learn heaps after getting your licence.

It is expensive to get your PPL in the first place but the hours you do subsequently are almost more important - make sure you save a bit of your budget for follow up training and solo flying. If you learn abroad then allow a couple of hours for local familiarisation when back in UK.

I would also really recommend visiting a few local airfields as they do vary, the schools have different feels about them and you may find that one suits you more than another. For example, round here, there is a very commercial airport with a couple of schools, all very anal, or there is a real "club" airfield which is very laid back, and has a strong social scene. In both you will get professional instruction but it depends in what style - chat to your instructor over lunch or sat in a classroom?

Good luck!

[119.35]

Some great advice on here but just to add that there is nothing wrong with buying a share in an aircraft after you have your ppl. Obviously with the proviso that the share in question has been thoroughly researched first. Plus, there are plenty of non-equity groups about that are far cheaper than hiring from a school.

I would be wary / question motives, of any instructor that says 'never' buy a share and continue to hire from the school at circa £130+. There are issues with shares and groups, like most things, but I don't know many people that continue their flying post ppl by hiring from a school. There are far cheaper options out there.

As people has said, after you get your ppl, things will be a lot clearer regarding what sort of flying you will want to do and where. You will meet plenty of people during your training and your flying post ppl be a lot clearer by then and will probably fall into place.

It's good to have a plan, but your first step is to get your ppl. Trying to work everything out initially, before training is extremely difficult, if not impossible as things change.

Good luck with your ppl.

[tuscan]

119.35,

do you know of any non equity groups within your frequency range?

[pronane]

Airbus_girl, sorry its an all-inclusive Irish term, please don't take any offence! :)

Again, some very detailed responses here and much appreciated as it takes a lot of time to formulate and type them up! Hopefully someone will be as lucky as me to find this resource that is in the same boat as me.

There seems to be a few contrasting opinions on buying shares in a plane but the general consensus, is one shouldn't buy one before gaining their PPL. The initial reason I mentioned the shares in a group was because it was one of the first things I saw when reading up on flying planes privately, and I assumed its cost would be less and I'll be honest cost is what I would be wary of as I am in no way wealthy and still relatively young at 26 so its something I have to think about.

tuscan, after some frantic searching the internet to find out how to ring canada(didnt realise it was the same code as the states)I rang them up last night and found the guys to be very helpful. Works out about £100 a lesson with an instructor and only £70 for solo flights which is great! Its a pity I didnt look into this last year :D

Reading the responses though has made me more determined to get my PPL and just go for it. Some of the things mentioned above e.g.: non-equity groups I will have to look into at a later point, but its good to know options exist that are cheaper than renting from schools - at the end of the day circumstances change and if i invest the time and money into it i want to be sure its something that I can still do if/when those circumstances change.

One final question, does anyone know much about the flying scene in Ireland?

[IO540]

Buying a share before getting one's PPL is not likely to be a good idea because the group's insurance may not cover the plane for ab initio training. Also, the plane must be maintained to a different regime if used for training towards the initial award of a license or a rating, and this makes it more expensive to keep. Finally, it is wise, if possible, to train in the same plane which you want to fly later on...

If however you have a clear idea of what you want to do post-PPL (e.g. going places i.e. touring) then buying a plane outright is a good strategy. Practically everybody will tell you that you are crazy, of course :) But it saves an awful lot of hassle, conversion training, etc.

Training in the USA is a sausage factory only if you go to the big schools.

[119.35]

TUSACAN:

Yes, McAully Flying Group (http://www.mcaullyflyinggroup.org/) . This group has a very good reputation.

This is the only non-equity group that I found when searching in a 20 or so miles radius from my home when I was looking for a nearby group / share.

Are you interested in the area or just curious?

Regards.

[tuscan]

Just curious, I will possibly be spending some time in that area next year. Thanks for the details, Ive saved them.

[stocker]

You`ll get a lot of advice on here, not all of it good:confused: Just pick your school to suit you,cost location whatever and then start learning to fly. Make up your own mind once you get started. Enjoy.

[prbaxter]

I'm also interested in attaining my PPL, but what do you do with it once you have it? can you use it for work? or is there just too much competition?

be a shame to get a PPL then not get a chance to make good use of it.

BAX

[BackPacker]

I'm also interested in attaining my PPL, but what do you do with it once you have it? can you use it for work? or is there just too much competition?

prbaxter, you need to do a lot more reading before you start your PPL if this is the kind of questions that need answering.

A PPL is a Private Pilots License. This means you can fly privately but not as a profession. In order to make money from flying, you need a Commercial Pilots License and to improve your abilties, most CPLs actually have an Instrument Rating (IR), Multi-engine rating (ME), Multi-Crew Cooperation rating (MCC) and/or one or more Type Ratings (TR)s. If they also have 1500 hours of experience and done the ATPL theory, that basically means they have an Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL). The investment in an ATPL is approximately 100.000 euros, to give you an idea. A plain CPL is cheaper but you need 250 hours experience as Pilot In Command (PIC) - at aircraft rental rates starting at 140 euros and going well over 200 euros per hour for more complex aircraft you will still be looking at 50.000 euros minimum.

Anyway, as I said, a PPL does not allow you to make money from your flying. You cannot even get reimbursed for your flying costs, except under a few very select cases. Even using the airplane instead of your car or public air transport to get to work, and then letting the company reimburse you for your flying costs has certain rules attached.

Whether there's any money to be made on an ATPL or CPL? Better ask in the Professional Studies/Wannabees forum. Yes, there are jobs and if you land one with an airline it's a rather steady job, albeit with very odd working hours. But the credit crisis is expecting to hit the airlines too so just like after 9/11, we may get into the situation where lots of pilots will get fired with no education whatsoever to pick up any other job.

[mcgoo]

Backpacker, where do you get this 250 hours PIC for CPL from, it's the second time you have posted it?

JAA CPL is 100 hours PIC, 200 hours TT for license issue.

FAA CPL is 100 hours PIC, 250 hours TT.

[BackPacker]

Sorry, my mistake. You're right.