Glass panels

[Spamcan defender]

Hi folks, I am in need of some info/advice....
I am in the initial process of speccing a panel for my homebuilt A/C and have 100% decided to go glass panel. I will be using the A/C predominantly for long distance touring and would like/require a decent fit.
I have looked at:-
Grand Rapids Horizon
http://www.grtavionics.com/Image/HSPFDENG511x380test.JPG
Advanced Flight Systems 3400/3500
http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/AF-3000/AFS-two-screens.jpg

Sandel SA4550/SN4500
http://www.sandel.com/images/thumb_SA4550.gifhttp://www.sandel.com/images/thumb_SN4500.gif

and Dynon FlightDEK.
http://www.dynonavionics.com/images/d180%20straight%20on.jpg
I would be looking at purchasing both the Primary Attitude Display and Navigation Display as a set.
Can anyone who uses any of these systems comment on any positives and negatives they have encountered. Or, any other glass panel suggestions would be welcome.

Spamcan

P.S And please guys, I'm not looking for folks giving me the third degree for putting glass in a homebuilt thankyouverymuch :hmm:.

[Rod1]

You have a PM

Rod1

[IO540]

Can't speak for the uncertified kit, but equally would be suprised one would put the rather pricey Sandel into a plane which doesn't need expensive certified kit.

The Sandel 3500 looks nice - I had a play with one recently.

With this kind of avionics, one important consideration is integration with other systems.

For real long distance touring I would put in a decent IFR GPS, so you get nice features like the OBS mode (great for flying DIY approaches and other stuff).

Are you putting in an autopilot? That's really vital for touring.

[Flap40]

My first question, what aircraft type are you building?

[Fitter2]

You have another PM -

Fitter2

[A and C]

My main concern with this kit is the total reliance on one electrical system.

I have been looking at going all glass in a C of A aircraft and the conclusion that I have come to is that the aircraft would require two electrical systems, this is not to hard to do on a permit aircraft as the second electrical system could be run using an alternator driven from the Vac pump pad on the engine.

[IO540]

I think every piston plane has a single point of electrical failure, for a total loss of everything - in the form of the master switch.

Certainly most SE ones have such a POF.

On the 'homebuilt' ones nobody worries because you are supposed to be VFR ;) but for any serious touring I would have a backup horizon, and a backup GPS and radio. This is what I have in the TB20, and would have in anything else.

One needs either a second alternator which feeds the backup instruments, or a battery for them, with diodes so that the backup avionics can draw power from either the main bus(es) or the backup bus.

[Rod1]

If you take a look at the Stratomaster Enigma/Voyager/ Odyssey. Each will charge an auxiliary battery. Your generator fails, your main battery fails and then you have 2 hours on backup. Very powerfull kit;


Primary Flight System Features
Primary flight system features:Altimeter: -700 to over 40.000 ft range, 1ft resolution at sea level.Airspeed: 16mph to 250mph range (other ranges on request).Vertical speed: +/-2000 ft/min analogue displays, +/-10.000 ft/min digital displays. TE mode available.AOA: 18 degrees nominal range (Range set during calibration flight).

Attitude
Connects to either low cost SP-4 AHRS or high performance SP-5 AHRS including aerobatic versions of SP-5.Magnetic heading (compass) using matchbox sized SP-2 for reliable remote installation.

Navigation
Built in 16 channel WAAS GPS, can use external GPS NMEA feed if required. Connection to standard NAV radios for ILS, Glide slope, VOR: RS232 serial, ARINC 429, +/-150mV analogue inputs.GPS only simulation of VOR navigation and ILS, Glide slope.GLS (GPS landing system) with highway in the sky 3D navigation to runway threshold.HITS (Highway in the sky) navigation system for GPS waypoints and routes.3D terrain look ahead with free World-wide terrain database.3D runways with live approach information without pilot interaction.Moving map navigation using raster or vector maps.Unrestricted ability for user to create and edit navigation data as well as raster and vector maps using free software applications.

Engine Monitoring
Single or dual engines, normally aspirated and turbine, fully flexible monitoring set up to cater for any type of engine.Uses standard, low cost RDAC remote engine monitoring modules for ease of installation as well as J1939 (CAN bus) based engine monitoring.EGT, CHT, Oil temp, Oil pressure, RPM, Coolant temp, fuel flow, fuel level(s), fuel pressure, voltage, current,... etc,etc.

Other Features
Automatic flight folio flight logging with export to PC based flight log viewer program. Logs up to 1000 flights with internal viewer."Black box" style logging of all flight data (primary flight, navigation, attitude, engine monitoring) to SD card with free PC based viewing application including export of flight path to Google Earth. Interface to COM and NAV radios for setting of frequencies from internal data base or rotary controls. 9 fully user customisable screens using free Odyssey Screen Designer and Simulator software. Layout your screens exactly the way you need them.

Other Features Continued
Voice prompts and warnings (if connected to suitable audio system), engine monitoring, navigation, primary flight etc. Voice prompts can be recorded to requirements using free PC application.Fully "Enigma" map and database compatible.Operates as single panel, dual or triple panel system with full, unrestricted functionality in each panel.Low power requirements, 1.5A at 12V at full backlight level.Dual backlights with independent power supplies.

Other Features continued
Connects to I/O extender for applications requiring large amount of additional monitoring and control such as remote control of Odyssey panel (using "hat switch" or similar on joystick). Easy and fast software upgradability using SD card. Free updates for life, high frequency of update cycles. Built in high capacity solid-state hard drive (no moving parts, no G-force restrictions). All navigation data and maps may reside oninternal drive.Ability to operate fully from external SD card slot including external booting of system (emergency operation in case of hard drive failureor during system test and configuration). User selectable units of operation, metres/feet, mph/knots/kmh, litres/gallons etc

Interfaces
RS232 port 1 - NAV/COM radio, FLARM, XAON XRX traffic systems, serial altitude encoder outputRS232 port 2 - NMEA autopilot output / external GPS inputARINC429 - 1 x TX, 3 x RX. Normal and high speed. TX->Autopilot messages, RX->NAV radios, traffic information systems (ARINC 735).USB Host - 2 x. Interconnect between multiple panels, MGL communications peripherals (Weather systems etc).USB Device - 1 x.Interconnect between multiple panels (slave connection).CAN (J1939). Automotive multidrop communications interface.Analogue - 4 x +/-150mV analogue differential inputs for connection to older generation NAV receivers (ILS, Glide slope and flags).Audio - high and low level outputs for audio voice prompts.Airtalk - 2 x multidrop communications bus (MGL propriety bus). Used to connect MGL attitude and compass sensors.Gillman altitude encoder output (standard parallel output bus).Input for Rotor speed sensor (Rotor craft usage only).GPS antenna input for active GPS antennas (SMA connector).

Power Supply
One input to 12V nominal supply. System operates from 6V to 28V.One input/output for optional rechargeable backup battery (recommended sealed lead acid, 2-5A/H capacity). Built in current limited charger.One secure 12V supply output for connection of vital equipment (AHRS, compass sensor, engine monitor(s)).

Sensors
Odyssey uses all the existing MGL & Floscan range of sensors. Fitting an RDAC module in the engine bay provides an interface for all engine mounted sensors, such as oil T & P, RPM, EGT, CHT, fuel flow etc. Rotax specific sensors are catered for, as are those fitted to other engines.

[Zulu Alpha]

I have some experience of a Grand Rapids system in an RV.

It works very well, however you do need their EIS system to interface to the engine sensors, this has its own B&W LCD screen and is designed to be used standalone. If you use their colour EFIS screens then this B&W LCD screen is a bit redundant, but you do need it as the rest of the box provides the engine monitor interface.

The aircraft I have been working on has 2 colour screens which work togther well and have a data channel linked to a GPS. This means that there is almost an infinite number of ways the system can be set up. I have found that its best to turn off most of the alarms as they repeat on each unit so 3 button pushes are required to cancel them. However this is a small critisism as the units allow you program just about everything. This ranges from what is shown on the displays to the colours of the different segments of the dials. You can also program the alarm levels.

Software upgrades are very easy and take a couple of minutes and are free as are the terrain maps, although these are not high resolution and are more useful for terrain avoidance.. You can save the screen setup to a memory stick and then its easy to revert to an old configuration if you make some changes and decide you don't like them.

In addition the units will record onto a memory stick so you can record all the engine parameters. This is useful if you are trying to diagnose an in flight problem. Just switch on record and look at it all later in the ground. You can also record fuel flows at different settings and airspeeds and work out best economy speeds etc later. If you are an engineer you will love this capability.

I don't have any experience with other manufacturers to compare with, but the Grand rapids system is easy to program and use and I have not found any gotchas.

It does use quite a bit of battery so I would suggest fitting an external power socket to the aircraft so you can put a charger on while you are sitting on the ground programming it all. You can spend an hour or so changing configuration.

ZA

[Spamcan defender]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Zulu Alpha - I'm planning on building an RV7 funnily enough. How do you find panel space with all the kit in place?? You wouldnt happen to have a pic of your panel would you??
I appreciate the issue of power provision and redundancy. Ideally I would like something akin to the Garmin G1000/G900X whereby the Primary display contains both the ADI and HSI and the secondary panel is purely GPS/NAV display. Most of the panels I have seen fitted to RV's and the like contain 3 panels..typically dedicated ADI, dedicated HSI and a separate GPS such as Garmin 496 etc. From the extent of my research so far I am unsure whether the choices I have indicated in my initial post are able to support such a configuration..

Rod1 - WOW, first time I have seen the Stratomaster stuff. The oddysey looks like a fantastic nit of kit. I can see that glass choice is not as easy and straightforward as I thought it might be.

Someone mentioned autopilot. I WILL be fitting one and at the moment it looks like a Trutrak Digiflight IIVSGV. I would prefer my autopilot to interface with my nav system for true LNAV/VNAV capability.

I must confess I'm not too clued up at the moment with regards to EFIS and what I should look for and, indeed, EXPECT from such systems. Basically I want something which offers me exceptional situational awareness, ease of information absorption (i.e clarity not clutter), integration with my autopilot and reliability. I dont mind spending good money on good products.

Spamcan

[Rod1]

The Stratomaster stuff will do all that and I have a three-year plan to get there. The new Dynon kit is going in the same direction, but is several years behind. Eventually I will have two MFD’s each of which can interact and do any job. The autopilot, radio, nav and transponder will all be black boxes (not panel mounted) controlled by the MFD’s. I started out with a hybrid glass/steam arrangement which I designed and built 6 years ago and have spent 6 months planning my upgrade to p1, p2 and p3 over the next 3 years.

Give me a call if you want more.

Rod1

[B2N2]

Have a look at these:

Welcome to Blue Mountain Avionics (http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/)

MGL Avionics - glass cockpit EFIS for Experimental aircraft (http://www.mglavionics.com/)

[Rod1]

MGL = Stratomaster

Rod1

[Spamcan defender]

Rod1, that sounds exactly like what I'm after. Just watched the Oddysey video they have and it looks amazing :ooh::ooh::8

I'll give you a bell one evening during the week if thats OK to discuss further?

On another related note, I understand certain homebuilts in the US are permitted to fly IFR. Permit A/C in UK are VFR only but I did read somewhere that there was talk, ableit murmours, of european reg changes which may allow certain UK homebuilts to fly IFR. I understand this is still VERY pie-in-the-sky but would undoubteldy influence my choice of avionics. Does anyone know of a link to the US regs for flying IFR in homebuilts i.e Equipment specs etc

Spamcan

[Zulu Alpha]

Zulu Alpha - I'm planning on building an RV7 funnily enough. How do you find panel space with all the kit in place?? You wouldnt happen to have a pic of your panel would you??

Its not my RV8 but I will take a photo next time I'm there. Panel space seems OK, it has two Grand Rapids EFIS screens, an EIS (required ) a Garmin 430 and a steam horizon and Becker radio as backup plus a few other bits I think.

One EFIS screen is in the centre and one to the right. The LAA require one screen to be set to the mandatory instruments so the right screen is used for them and all the engine, fuel etc. The centre screen is used as the artificial horizon with airspeed and altitude etc and can also be the GPS nav and terrain screen. Both screens could be used for any function though.

If we use the screens for an hour or so on the ground with no ground power then the starter motor is very slow, so they do drain quite a bit ( we also need the EIS and Garmin on for the whole system to work). In addition they reset when the starter is engaged. Not sure this is a problem, but thought I'd mention it.

It has the capability to interface to an autopilot and we are now working on this, but have one or two other things to sort out in the aircraft first, it has only done 40 hrs so far.

ZA

[Rod1]

“If we use the screens for an hour or so on the ground with no ground power then the starter motor is very slow, so they do drain quite a bit ( we also need the EIS and Garmin on for the whole system to work). In addition they reset when the starter is engaged. Not sure this is a problem, but thought I'd mention it.”

The reset issue is common on homebuilts. If you put in a backup battery, you do the set up on the backup and then switch in main power after engine start. This prevents all the problems mentioned and the backup will be recharged in flight,

Rod1

[Zulu Alpha]

Ros1,

I agree, however its not my aircraft and I didn't design/wire it.

If anyone is thinking of putting in an EFIS, it is worth thinking about beforehand, which is why I mentioned it.

ZA

[vintagewizard]

spamcan, we have fill our RV with screens.....FADEC/EFIS etc.....anyway one of our builders....who designed the wiring, and did a stunning job is doing a laa coaching course on 6th December, Aircraft Electrical Wiring, which you might find useful....

[Spamcan defender]

Thanks vintagewizard, how would I go about finding out where this course is going to be run??

Spamcan

[Rod1]

Have a look at AeroElectric Connection - Aircraft Electrical Systems (http://www.aeroelectric.com). It allowed a novice like me to wire up an aircraft with very little help, and it all works:ok:

Rod1