What is meant by "RIP" anyway?

[Pilot DAR]

With no particular reference to any particular person, event, or thread (but certainly inspired by one), what do people mean when they relate unhappy events in detail, write speculation about the actions of a victim, or otherwise present information which we could probably agree could not be "family rated", and then end their post with "RIP".

Doesn't "RIP" mean Rest in Peace. Wouldn't "peace" be being protected by one's peers (us) from untimely and unwarranted attack and pursuit when the person can no longer stand in their own defense? Apparently we'll all stand up for some poor fellow who's private runway is under threat of closure, but let him crash there, and people jump all over him, then evade guilt by typing "RIP" at the end of the attack!

In due time, the sharp pain of a recent loss recedes, and a proper time comes to LEARN and GROW from an unhappy event, while recounting only the minimum required to make that happen. How about waiting until then. If some kind of immediate action is found necessary, believe me the regulators will do it, it does not have to be discussed here.

It is my opinion that if RIP is the true sentiment of those who wish to post, than it should be limited to that. How about a PPRuNe code of conduct that comments are not made on accidents, but accident REPORTS?

Perhaps I've been a bit guilty in the past too, I'll clean up my act, how about the rest of you?

Pilot DAR

[vanHorck]

it is imho not the commenting on poor judgement or other causes of accidents which is hurtful. It is the incessant slagging off each other, calling each other children or stupid or worse that it intolerable.

Some of the posters, and quite a few of the old seasoned ones(!) with many hundreds or thousands of posters are exceptional pedants who feel that only their opinion is valuable to the point of even asking or telling other posters to stop posting at least implicitly. They should learn to respect others opinions and give their own, and if commenting do it in a respectful way.

In my opinion it is quite ok to exchange views on what may have caused an accident, or discuss circumstances such as weather at the time, type of plane, age of plane etc.etc. After all this is a pilots forum where news and rumors can be voiced and discussed. I am aware that relatives may come to this forum to read what is being sad. If they do, it will hurt them a lot, but this should not be a reason to stop commenting so that we all may continue to learn......

Anyone is free to disagree with my view.

Perhaps the Moderator(s) may wish to join the discussion so we can set acceptable standards for the forum and still continue our exchange of views openly?

Respectfully yours

BvH

[OneDay21]

I understand the sentiment of your thread and agree with it fully in some areas but i feel you take the point to an extreme.
I understand that blaming the pilot in speculation is never respectful but learning what could have gone wrong is totally different, this site is designed for knowledge to be passed on.
I have lost many friends in minor accidents, as of yet a report takes months or even years in SA to get handled and brought forward to the
relevant families, even then can be undertermined. I know of families who register just to get different points of views from this site.
But at the end of the day in GA who knows what really happened.
I feel in saying RIP it is the intent to show a small sign of respect,none the less if you dont mean it whats the point of saying it really..

[vanHorck]

I just cannot imagine ANYBODY not feeling for the families. Everyone is saddened by such an event, especially when 2 young lives are lost in the process.

Personally i don't mind if people say RIP or other kind words, but i do not have the feeling that those who do not say it, do not wish to say it, it just sometimes seems so hollow, simply because there are no words to describe the sadness

[JohnRayner]

I was taught, and do believe, that you shouldn't speak ill of the dead, if only because they can't answer back.

I agree, the time for the "you idiot, what do you think you're doing!?" type comments belong at the point where you are e.g. trying to take the keys out of your drunk mate's hand before he drives off, if they belong anywhere at all! After the event, all that's left is respect for the deceased, and finding out what went wrong.

Having said that a sober discussion of events leading up to a tragedy, bereft of personal attack, can be of use for all sorts of reason. Who knows? A well placed thoughtful comment on here might encourage someone NOT to go out and kill themselves through bad judgement.

On the subject of responsible posting. Well, internet forums are all about annonymity, aren't they? You might as well ask people to stop using the web to download porn.

RIP is what you write when you want to convey the bare minimum of sorrow, imho.

[Cusco]

Requiescat in pace. Let him/her rest in peace. (Latin)

I see absolutely no objection in saying this: It shows a smidge of respect to someone who has died but whom one does not know from a bar of soap, which offers the same level of impersonal but still intended respect somewhat akin to our actions when we buy a poppy.............

But is not so unutterably cringe-making as the out pouring of condolences one occasionally sees.

While we're on the subject of Latin remember the other old favourite which occasionally gets forgotten here:

De mortuis nihil nisi bonum.

Cusco

[jonkil]

Well done the moderators for shutting down the thread earlier.
Indeed "Speak no ill of the dead" is fitting, speculation as was displayed in the previous thread is distasteful in the extreme, it seemed to deepen even after asking for restraint.

[IO540]

I think one should find a happy medium point between the two extremes; these being a) no discussion of accidents and b) immediately accusing the pilot of being stupid.

The main reason I say this is partly that the AAIB reports take for ever to come out, by which time the accident has been long forgotten by most people, and the learning value of the report is minimal because very few people bother to read it. The other reason is that a lot, probably most, GA related AAIB reports are only slightly more informed speculation than what one can knock up by bouncing ideas around in a pilot forum.

Learning from these sad accidents (which I find especially sad if a child gets killed) is essential.

[DX Wombat]

Also "Requiescant in pace" - may they rest in peace.

[BRL]

I couldn't agree more.

I will re-open that thread later. Hopefully the more understanding of you will refrain from accusing the pilot of being inexperienced and so on, remembering his family, and the family of the other lad, may well be lead to that thread.

A bit of respect is what we all want to see and read in cases like this.

As for the speculation, that should be for another thread, again as a mark of respect, not to taint the original thread with undue attacks on other posters and ill informed comments (see other accident/incident threads).

What I would like to see when an accident/incident happens is a condolences thread where people who actually knew the persons involved are allowed to comment and another thread should be opened for anyone to discuss the possible reasons why it happened and to learn from events like this. Perhaps someone could start a 'Flying in bad weather' thread to kick things off and you can all disagree with each other on that.

It is not easy to moderate threads where someone has been killed. First thing I get accused of when I do intervene is the right to discuss why it happened so others can learn from that, but I would rather see the discussions in another thread, not the one that reports the deaths of fellow pilots. I really would like to see two separate threads when this kind of thing happens.

Thank you to all of you who have emailed and PM'd me today, much of what I have written above is based on your comments today. :)

[frostbite]

Must agree with some of the sentiments expressed.

I read some of the original thread and, once again, felt nothing but contempt for some of the posters who were turning it into a childish squabble.

Seems to happen almost every time there's a fatal accident.

[DX Wombat]

BRL & Frostbite, I agree with both of you. In cases like this I tend not to comment on the possible reasons as I was not there when it happened. I made an exception earlier this year when someone I knew was killed. There were, if I recall correctly, three of us posters who knew and liked the person concerned. All any of us would say by way of comment was that we liked the person and felt very sad but none of us was particularly surprised. What amazed me in that thread was the number of people who did not read the posts properly and were, to my mind, quite rude and seriously ill-informed in their reponses apparently feeling that they knew better than anyone including qualified personnel who were in the area at the time. Good, reasoned discussion can be a very useful learning aid. Ill-informed comments from self-important know-alls is not.

[englishal]

Was my post deleted from that thread?

If I am not dreaming, why was it deleted....?I don't recall saying anything that warranted being moderated? I seem to remember saying that I would have done that flight, and that sometimes bad judgement can lead to even a high time pilot coming to grief (no suggestion of this on this flight though).

E.g. My mate and very experienced pilot flew into a mountain and killed 5 - including 2 young children and their mother. High time, bad judgement - according to the NTSB - sad fact of life and death I'm afraid. No disrespect to anyone....

If I didn't post and I imagined the whole thing, my apologies....:confused:

[BRL]

Check your Pm's Al. :)

[englishal]

Thanks BRL, and no worries.....

[S-Works]

I just cannot imagine ANYBODY not feeling for the families. Everyone is saddened by such an event, especially when 2 young lives are lost in the process.

Because it is a cold and callous world. Millions die every day from war, starvation and murder. If we 'felt' for every person that died we would end up suicidal. Death is death and as hard as it sounds I am neutral on the subject. I certainly don't believe in giving false sentiments about people I have never met.

However the endless pissing contests that ensue on here every time someone cops it are a bit crass. Examining an accident and speculating is a good way of making us think and perhaps avoid a repeat. The experts who assure is the flight was 'impossible' etc should try and open there minds a little. A recent example on another thread is a case in point. Conditions that many of us would have been flying (and I was flying in) might not be suitable for others. So an open mind is needed.

[BackPacker]

What I would like to see when an accident/incident happens is a condolences thread where people who actually knew the persons involved are allowed to comment and another thread should be opened for anyone to discuss the possible reasons why it happened and to learn from events like this. Perhaps someone could start a 'Flying in bad weather' thread to kick things off and you can all disagree with each other on that.

I've been reading both threads and have refrained from commenting so far, both because I don't know the pilot, and because I don't know anything about the environment (both physical and weather) he was flying in. But I've been thinking about our "right to discuss" and I would like to comment on that just a bit.

As we all have learned in the PPL course, there is usually not one single cause of an accident. It's usually a multitude of contributing factors, and even if one of the factors would have been absent, the flight would have been hairy, but not with a fatal outcome. The Swiss cheese analogy is used a lot for this.

As forumites, when an accident has happened, we will want to discuss it. Call it natural curiosity, call it the safety consciousness of the aviation community, call it something else. But the accident will be discussed, either here or at the bar.

However, before these discussions lead to conclusions, and name calling of pilots, let's not forget that we as forumites, do not have a complete picture. We do not know the technical state of the aircraft. We do not know how much fuel was on board, and how much other load. We don't know the reasons for the flight (get-there-itis or not?), we don't know the originally intended routing. We don't know the qualifications of the pilot (IR?) nor whether his flight was filed IFR or VFR. We have no access to radio and radar tapes. And so on and so forth. All we know is that a plane is missing and wreckage has been found on a hillside.

So that leaves us to discuss the only thing that we can analyze, because the data is out there on the internet: the weather. And people have done so. Fine. But let's all be real careful to separate a weather discussion from handing down a final verdict as to what happened.

Oh, and a week or so ago somebody asked a question about searching for old TAFs (not METARs) and got no answer, basically. Historical forecasts are notoriously hard to find, so even our little weather discussion is most likely limited to actuals, whether they are METARs or personal observations. But we don't have access to the forecasts that were available to the pilot when he made his decision to go fly. Another thing to keep in mind.

The AAIB will attempt to give us a complete picture, eventually. That's the time and place for conclusions, not earlier.

[vanHorck]

Bose X, I respect a lot of the content of what you write. It is just the tone which makes it unnecessarily hard sometimes....

Yes this is a hard world, but if we all did our best to soften it a bit, i feel it would be a better place.

I for one would love to keep reading your comments, but the sometimes accusing part to others could be left to the side.

Ideally, here we would receive multiple views and we all distill from it what we feel is good for us.

Respect for your knowledge
BvH

[DavidHoul52]

It's true that it does get quite rough in PPRune and that some posters seem to use it as an outlet perhaps denied them in real life - on the other hand I feel it's praiseworthy that a) many are concerned about the feelings of relatives and friends of the deceased and b) that we do feel that most accidents are preventable and unless the cause finally proves to be unknown there is something to learn.

On this last point the Belfast Telegraph (quoted in the Independent today) has an article with a lot more detail about the accident and the family. Seems a sad loss indeed.


Had he left the flight plan open, the alarm would have been raised within half an hour of the plane going missing.


This may or may not be true and probably would not have effected the outcome but no harm making a note to self not to close a flight plan until safely on the ground?

[BackPacker]

This may or may not be true and probably would not have effected the outcome but no harm making a note to self not to close a flight plan until safely on the ground?

For almost all countries outside the UK the answer is yes. If you don't close the flightplan, they come looking for you. On a controlled field, your plan is closed for you upon landing automatically. For an uncontrolled field, you either close by phone after landing, by calling a designated number, or you close the plan when signing off with the last "formal" ATC unit and when in sight of the field. Presumably, in that last case, if something happens after closing, somebody at the field will have you in sight, hopefully, and raise the alarm.

In the UK the situation is very different though. An overdue VFR flight plan, to the best of my knowledge, is NOT used as trigger for a SAR operation. Instead you have to designate a "responsible person" (a friend, but ATC units offer this service too) who you let know of your departure and your safe arrival. If that second phonecall is overdue, it's the responsible person who initiates the SAR operation. All this is completely independent of your flight plan and because of this, in the UK, flight plans are never "closed".

In any case, being overdue with closing your flight plan or failing to notify the responsible person will not have the helicopters scrambling straight away. When you're more than half an hour overdue from your last known ETA, they first start calling the destination and any alternates you have filed. They will also try to contact you via your contact number (mobile phone) on the flightplan and the operator/owner of the plane. And only when a phone search doesn't turn up anything (and this may take up to half an hour) will the helicopters start flying.

So the earliest that somebody will come and actually look for you is probably at least an hour from the moment your ETA expires. Of course, that may be already several hours after you've had the accident, and even then it might take several hours (days, or even years in some cases) for the rescue services to find you. The more accurate the route in your flightplan was listed and flown, the higher the chance that they find you reasonably fast.

Staying in contact with ATC (in the UK formally called "alerting service", which is implicit in a FIS) and, if possible, declaring a mayday early on will have much more immediate effect than a flight plan in any case.

[DX Wombat]

Backpacker, that was a very good post and said much better what I was trying to say. As has been rightly pointed out, we were not present and although we can imagine how things may have been especially with regard to the weather we cannot know for certain. As an example of this a short tale of my own: I recently set off for an IMC lesson with a very experienced instructor (thousands and thousands of hours in C152s). It was rather gusty but nothing too severe but on reaching 1'500' it became obvious that it was much worse higher up so we decided to abandon the flight. I am well aware that there can often be windshear at one particular point on final but was surprised by the severity of it that day. I wasn't too happy with my ability to cope so the instructor landed it. It was a somewhat interesting landing but having returned safely to the clubhouse he remarked that he too had been VERY surprised by the rate at which we had lost height. My point is that others had been out flying in the circuit only minutes earlier and had not experienced anything out of the ordinary. To all intents and purposes the weather looked exactly the same when we took off as it had when they had been airborne but was actually very different. We may think we know what it was like from METARs etc. but that isn't necessarily so.