Risk taking - overflying "poor terrains"

[RMarvin86]

Hi there,

I need some opinions about your habit overflying terrains which have not or very few sites suitable for a forced landing in case of need. I was tough some years ago during my first ultralight flight lesson to avoid as much as possible those areas, like extended woods, vinyards etc..
Now during my PPL course my instructor tells me to not worry about the terrain beneath and to enjoy the flight; according to him a forced landing is a very remote possibility, allright, but everytime I told him I felt unconfortable because of the low flying over the hills he reminded me that he has xxxx flight hours and never had to deal with an emergency, engines are reliable!
I notice this kind of behaviour in almost everybody at the flight school and I realise now that I'm taking more risk when it comes to overfly those terrains. I actually live and fly at the foot of the italian alps so please understand my concern. How are others doing in such situations? My instructor does not take me serious when I tell him about this kind of "risk taking".
Any comment is valuable

[LH2]

I fly in your area as well. Sometimes in poor weather too, sandwiched between two layers of cloud, with plenty of rock inside the lower one (and often the higher one).

If you have an engine failure in those circumstances, that's it, so if you're worried about that possibility, then don't fly. As you say, it's about how much risk you're willing to take.

btw, I'm personally more concerned about clipping a power line or catex than having an engine failure.

[PlasticPilot]

Well... while I understand your concern, I don't really share your concern. May be because I learned to fly in Switzerland, between the Alps, Jura, lakes, wineyards, cities... But other places are not much easier. Forrest, corn fields, densly populated areas, open water... shall we fly only over smooth areas ? I don't think so.

The day I'll have to deal with an engine failure, I hope that it would not be in too adverse terrain. Before that happens, I do my best to put all chances on my side: proper maintenance and engine checks, and fly as high as possible over adverse area, to increase the options...

If you want to read more about alpine flying, visit my blog (http://www.plasticpilot.net) in the next days, I'm preparing a series on this very topic.

[Fuji Abound]

In terms of the question in general very often flight over inhospitable terrain can be avoided with astute route planning. Whether you take this option is entirely a factor of your wish to manage risk.

However if inhospitable terrain is all you have around you it becomes a matter of managing the risk when you have an engine failure, because if you fly long enough you will probably have an engine failure eventually. It may be sooner or later - who knows.

If this is the case buy yourself a copy of Bushflying by Pocock. It is a jolly good read and discusses some of the techniques of mitigating the risk of a FL over mounatains / rough terrain when you have an engine failure. It is the sort of book that really could save your life one day.

[Airbus Girl]

Knowing the terrain is key. If you have the option, always try to have an escape route. That might mean flying higher, or fly along the ridge so if you need to descend in a hurry then you can turn 90 degrees from the ridge and you will have lower ground beneath you. Weather is one of the biggest factors of flying in the mountains. But there are often landable areas even in the mountains. Most ranges I have flown in/ over have escape routes and/or small landing areas that can be used in an emergency.

You are right to think that mountains can bite you - but I do know that whilst gaining experience many students/ early PPLs do not realise that actually there are a lot more options than they think - ask your instructor, read books, and look out yourself for possible sites. There are generally valleys/ flatter areas between the mountains.

In the Airbus when we fly into Innsbruck we have an escape route - one example would be if we have an engine failure at a certain point we have to fly for 20 miles up the valley until it widens enough to turn around and then we fly back to the airfield.

Get a briefing off a decent mountain flying instructor.

[IO540]

if you fly long enough you will probably have an engine failure eventually.

The above is clearly true, but how many of us spend their entire airborne time orbiting over the centre of London at 2000ft, or flying above the N Sea with surface winds of 50kt?

Not many.

On most flights, there is a time window during which an engine failure is going to result in a non survivable crash (unless you get really lucky). There are many airports where the approaches are like that. But the chance of the engine packing up right during one of those slots is very small. I reckon that on a typical flight around UK or Europe one spends maybe 1% of one's airborne time in such spots.

I have flown straight over the Alps a number of times. Looking at the terrain below, there are ample landing sites. There are huge valleys but there are also smaller spots where one could put down (not ever get the plane out again though). Flying high will help greatly with the options, but one may need an IR for this.

Doing the above above an overcast is something else but I still do it. Run a GPS with a large topo map on it, showing the valleys to glide into, and fly as high as possible - 10,000ft or so above the terrain.

I would consider flying over a forest much more risky. The plane virtually always ends up totally wrecked and survival seems a matter of mostly luck.

If you have the option, always try to have an escape route.

Absolutely right. And most of the time one does have one, or can easily arrange the route (if VFR) for it to be so. The only time I see myself having no escape route is when taking off or landing at some airports, or flying over dense forests. Mountains usually have options, and for water one carries a life raft.

Finally, look after your engine. Looking at maintenance and operating practices it is obvious there is a vast spectrum of reliabilities, even across the same engine type. I have just seen a dreadful fatal accident report in which the engine was seriously knackered internally, and not making its rated power. This kind of thing is avoidable simply by cutting open the oil filter at each oil change and checking it for chunks of metal, sending off oil samples for analysis, and making sure the engine makes the rated RPM (or fuel flow/MP if VP prop) on takeoff.

[Pilot DAR]

In 5000 or so hours of flying, I've had 7 complete engine failures in single engined aircraft. 4 continued to the ground (restart not possible). In each case I was lucky enough to be able to glide to an area not only suitable for landing, but a later takeoff as well (okay, one was an airport!). Three of the four times were fuel system icing related, the last was an induction system blockage which alternate air would not solve.

Most of my flying is over areas where a damage free landing would not be possible, I fly high, so as to give the most time for a restart.

Always fly with the best preparedness you can...

Pilot DAR

[nonrad]

Consider flying with a parachute, and jumping out if over unlandable terrain.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

East Anglia where really one is more spoilt for choice than anything else when it comes to picking a field
PFL, East Anglia version:

(1) Set up a circuit, without yet looking at the ground.

(2) Work out which of the many suitable fields you're going to end up in.

(3) Tell the instructor that that's the field you were aiming for in the first place.

[bucket_and_spade]

I'm an airline pilot who occasionally flies light aircraft (when I can afford it!) and I strongly agree with the sentiment of never putting yourself in a corner i.e. always having a half-decent chance of getting away with it if it suddenly gets very quiet, very quickly, up at the front.

When I was doing my VFR flight training in the US myself and the other students were flying in fairly remote, desert terrain in PA28s much of the time. During the night flying phase I would often hear guys badgering their instructors to go over the mountains up to Sedona (over an hour away) as a night navex - when I asked them what their plan was when the engine failed above invisible, sparsely-populated, mountain terrain, at night, some of them looked surprised - I don't think they'd even considered it!

Risk-taking isn't ideal, neither is being over-the-top risk-averse. As someone has already said, it's about risk management - always have (even a loose) plan/escape strategy at the back of your mind and fly accordingly - one day you might find yourself sightseeing with 3 generations of your family in the back - it'd be pretty reckless to end up in a situation you don't have a sniff of recovering from!

B&S :ok:

[RMarvin86]

Thank you guys,

I realise that risk taking is something personal and the assessment is based on many variables, one of those is experience.
Waiting for more comments :ok:

[RatherBeFlying]

Flying over the Canadian Shield or the Allegenies, I like to be at 9500' or 8500'. Your average SEP gives about 8 to 1 glide ratio; so a decent chance of finding something survivable within a 10 mile radius and a 800' fpm descent gives you about 10 minutes to discuss your plight with ATC and see if the engine can be brought to life.

And yes, I flown both at night. Over the Canadian Shield at night, I'd attempt landing on a highway as low power line probability offers a better deal than the certainty of trees or steep rock off the highway. Too much population (i.e. power lines) in the Allegenies to chance a night highway landing.

Ceilings of course limit all of the above and at some point you postpone the flight if forecast ceilings are too low.

Where there's cultivation and low ceilings, I tend to hopscotch from one likely field to the next.

[gasax]

There are places where you can land the aircraft and places where you crash the aircraft. Disregarding the whole "cannot see where I'm going' night and IMC stuff I am fairly relaxed about forced landings.

Land up a slope and the 'ground roll' is tens of metres if that. Have to land amongst trees? The numbers say most off the time the upper tree canopy is very soft - the challenge is getting to the ground without getting hurt. So conifers versus decidious.

The Jura - you're likely to be quite high - if only to get over the passes. The gliding range along the valleys can be quite large. If it is windy you can even slope soar to a point.

Try and force land close to civilisation - that makes a big difference in terms of the likelihood of getting assistance.

The big thing is that forcelanding as slowly as possible makes the landing survivable. Survivable is probably a huge overstatement, I would be very disappointed to be injured in a forced landing.......

I've survived a 'write off' take off accident (I was the passenger!) with a lightly scratched thumb - light aircraft can provide a very useful 'crush structure' - crash as slowly as possible against the softest terrain or most oblique angle.