Credit crunch and cheaper flying.....

[tuscan]

How much do you pay? I just happened in past Highland Flying School this weekend and was amazed at their rates. I remember paying these prices years ago at other clubs.
I bought a 10 hour block in a PA38 for just £850. Thats cheaper than some 2 seater groups I know of.

C172 and Warrior rates were also fantastic value for money.
I have to take my hat off to the folks at HFS,for them the flying and the people that fly is more important than just the money:D.
If anyone has details of any other great deals then please share them with us, we all want to continue flying through these tough times:ok:

[sollas]

I'm doing my ppl up in inverness at the moment with HFS.


Moray flying Club at RAF Kinloss also have very good prices and are nice to deal with.

hire rates 152 £83 hr £98 hr for training
172 £98.50 hr and £108.50 for training

They run IMC, night etc as well.

[liam548]

£132.50 at Sherburn for PA28s. Gone up since I started 6 months ago not down..

[DavidHoul52]

Wellsbourne were advertising PA28s for £99. Not sure if that still stands.

The HFS are very reasonable. I did an advanced handling course and then solo to Kirkwall and back (£91 and hour if I remember correctly for a PA28). They even refunded the landing fee I paid at Kirkwall!

Unfortunately Inverness is quite a long drive from London. There are some reasonable rates around the M25 (my present club not being one of them!).

Flying funds are certainly drying up personally. I wonder would it be better to hang up my goggles for a few months and then spend an hour or two with an instructor or keep my skills current by flying some circuits once or twice a month?

[tuscan]

C172 or PA28 Warrior £990 for 10 hours, I think it was. Maybe Sollas can confirm that next time they are in:ok:Its on the board behind the desk.

[sollas]

Hi Tuscan,

Certainly will check for you. Going up again on sat. You want solo or instruction prices?

sollas

[tuscan]

I think people would be interested in both. For myself its not nescessary as I have just bought ten hours solo and will be back soon.

Where you in on Sunday by any chance?

[sollas]

Yip, was sitting aircraft general and flight performance and planning. Fun! lol

[tuscan]

Ah yes, I remember them well. I bet youd rather be out in your mini (if that was you).
It got a bit busy in there on Sunday, I doubt you studied much:=. Good luck when you sit them:ok:

[julian_storey]

Flying funds are certainly drying up personally. I wonder would it be better to hang up my goggles for a few months and then spend an hour or two with an instructor or keep my skills current by flying some circuits once or twice a month?

Definitely try to keep current if you can.

Remember that one of the cheapest ways to fly is to take your friends and split the costs - it's absolutely legal (no more than four ways etc. . )

If you ask your non flying friends if they want to go flying and pay towards it, they'll most likely tell you to sod off. Offer them a trip to France for £50 or £60 each and they'll most likely jump at the chance :O

You live in London right? Well from there, in most light aircraft France is not much more than an hour away? If you hunt around, you can still find a 4 seat aircraft for £100 ish an hour wet.

The return trip is two hours - so a total cost of just over £200 less the fuel drawback. That's about £50 each for a lovely day out. It's also flying for you at about £25 an hour.

Why would you not try to keep current? :D

[DavidHoul52]

That's obviously the way to go. My own club discourages sharing - something to do with the insurance. 4 seater costs £170 per hour or more. Small wonder most of the time they sit parked on the ground keeping the grass dry.

There are clubs slightly closer to where I live and which are more reasonable. I know at least one that encourages mutual flying and fly-aways.

So that's probably what I'll do.

My last attempt at this didn't work out, I have to shamefully admit. After two and a half hours of check outs I was beginning to wonder whether I should be flying at all. Maybe it was just a bad day as things went a lot better in Scotland and I felt the time was better spent doing "advanced handling" rather than learning to do one tricky circuit perfectly.

[julian_storey]

If your club discourages sharing, find a different club! :D

[nadders]

Talking of cheap flying, I'm looking to hire something with four seats (PA 28 or C172) in the Derbyshire/South Yorkshire area. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't find anything for less than about £120-£130:ugh: and I'm 'ooop norf.' How are peaople finding Aircraft CLUB hire for the hundred quid mark?? Especially in and around London.

If anyone can direct me to a hireable aircraft for around the hundred quid mark please let me know!

[Shunter]

The only way to fly cheaply these days is to buy a share. I flew just over 5hrs in the Cardinal last month, and out of curiosity added up what it would have cost me in hire charges. My bill was just over £500 (which includes the monthly charge - group of 5, based at expensive international airport). To hire (PA28), with no monthly charge, would have cost over £900! All the little extras, like block-to-block wet charging instead of airborne dry charging + fuel etc.. soon mount up!

If you're serious about flying as a long term hobby, a share in a good group is the only way!

[Pilotdom]

Agree with Shunter, only way is to join a group. I fly from Sherburn and can't stand paying £100+ an hour for a PA-28. I'm starting a group around a 4 seat Jodel that will bring my flying down to £45.00 an hour, and a monthly fee of £40.00. Thats cheap flying! Obviously its day VFR only, but who wants to spend £100+ for a local bimble to farm strips on a nice weekday evening? If I need more capability, I'll hire it!

[sollas]

Hi Tuscan,

:), yip, mine is the mini! I managed to sit them both on sunday, despite it being busy so got performance and planning, met and aircraft gen done last wkend. Only leaves navigation, pre-skills and skills to do i think:uhoh:!

hope your well

sollas

[tuscan]

I dont agree that group flying is the only cheap way to fly. If I take a few friends and pile them into a PA28 or C172 and split the cost of £99/hour, you dont get much cheaper than that.
Of course if I decide to fly on my own that would be another story.
Even splitting the £85/hour of the PA38 is very economic. I have several friends in groups who can not compete with those rates.

Sollas,
I will catch up with your progress next time Im up in Inversnecky.....good luck.

[SR71-Blackbird]

Agree with Tuscan.

From late 07 to earlier this year, I was able to fly a IFR equipped C172 for £65 p/h with monthly costs of £65. The only other payment was a refundable deposit of £750. Claimimg fuel drawback and taking one or two friends bring hourly costs down to "taxi fare"

Certainly with group ownership brings periodic costs some of which are not covered by regular contribution payments. However there are other benefits though.

Each to their own I suppose

[Vick Van Guard]

£85 / hour for a very nice well equiped 172 in North Norfolk at a friendly club. £250 refundable deposit no monthly or landing fee's.

Sad thing is its not being flown enough so the price may have to go up:eek:

So if anyone out there fancy's becoming a member of a group that...


(please pm):)

[A and C]

Any of you who think that these low prices that you are now seeing are "good" for you are living in a short term dream world.

As the smaller companys that strugle to survive and drop the prices they are being squeezed from the other end by the rising cost of parts (due to $ Rate) and the extra taxation that he UK goverment is planning (radio spectrum is one). The margins in GA are small and this is all one step too far.
What you are going to be left with is the large companys that will dominate the market.
How would you all feel about having almost all the aircraft training and rental market in the hands of the likes of Cabair?

Some of us who invested in the business during the good times are now enjoying the lower running costs of a "sorted" fleet and can survive the down turn but others who continued to squeez the pips out of aircraft that should have long ago been refurbished are now unable to support these aircraft.

In the long term I only see the customer as being the victim of a market dominated by one or two big players who effectively control airfields and set the agenda in favour of themselfs.

[tuscan]

Although Highland are a well established school they ,dare I say it, are not one of the big guns in GA. Niether have they dropped prices to compete. They are in fact well managed with a healthy business plan that has prevented them from having to up their prices over the last few years and they are growing constantly.

The feeling I get and I have said it before is that with Highland its not just about the money, they care about people and the people who fly and it is important to them that we can afford to fly and keep coming back.

Their fleet is well kept and being topped up regularly.

FOOLS PARADISE!!!!! I DONT THINK SO.......

[A and C]

That may well be the case up north but one company dominates the market at seven of the airfields around London.

The tactic of late has been to buy up local clubs to get a foot hold at an airfield, if I was running this business I would now be looking to the rest of the UK to continue growing the business.

I don't know of Highland but they sound like a good place to fly and would seem to have a large customer base........... A ripe target for these people!

Tuscan I would like to thing that you are correct but having seen the demise of a well run club such as Highland I fear that you could have a nasty shock coming.

[Retired Redcap]

I would love to fly ay Sherburn prices when compared with those at Barton. Currently there I pay £113 plus VAT per hour for a PA28 and airfield charges of £22.03 plus VAT. I save you the maths, it works out at £132.78 per hour plus £25.88 for one take off and landing.
I think a group will be my only way forward for the future.

[tuscan]

I certainly hope not, it would be a shame.

I am also sorry to hear of what`s happening down South in the London area, we can become rather insular and not see beyond our own boundaries. This is one of the reasons I frequent these pages, to try and keep up with what is happening elsewhere.

I wish you the best of luck in keeping your clients. I too have a business in a very competitive market and find that the so called market leaders are not always providing the best quality but often have the best prices. Unfortunately cutting prices often means cutting corners, something we should all be wary of, particularly when looking for cheaper flying.

Its always better to get an unbiased opinion from a third party before jumping in with both feet just because of an attractive looking package.

Whats the phrase? Buyer Beware!!!

My opinion of Highland stands and I have no affiliation to them other than being a customer.

[Genghis the Engineer]

What am I currently paying?

£300pa for a flewwing microlight that's sat derigged in the hangar and I need to either sell or find time to fly. It's probably worth about £3k at current market prices.

For a Thruster (fun but very low performance microlight) which I own 1/8th of: £15/month, £9/hr + fuel (~£15/hr) + £50pa club membership. If I were to sell the share now I'd get about £350

For a vintage 4-seat taildragger: which I also own 1/8th of: £75/month, ~£55/hr. If I were to sell the share now so I'd get about £3,500.

For a PA38 which I'm currently doing a bit of licence upgrade training in, about £140/hr.


So if I flew circa 3 hrs/month in each (which is my target in the Thruster and vintage taildragger - although I don't seem to be meeting it at the moment due to lack of time, not money), that works out per hour at roughly:

Thruster: £30/hr
Vintage: £80/hr
PA38: £140/hr (okay, to be fair that's dual, it'd be about £110 solo).

Strangely, I think that there's actually an inverse relationship there between price and fun but long trips in the Thruster is scarcely viable, and the PA38 is just serving a purpose at the moment.

But, it does show that just about anything is cheaper than renting standard club aeroplanes if you want to fly with any regularity. Also, in my experience, club rental aeroplanes are usually about the worst aircraft you'll ever fly in terms of condition and enjoyment - as well as almost impossible to take away for a few days.

But of course, joining a syndicate does require a certain amount of up-front cash and time commitment to doing a few chores on the aircraft and that shouldn't be forgotten.

G