FAA PPL using JAA PPL in UK - fastest way ?

[echobeach]

I understand that I can obtain an FAA PPL on the basis of my current JAA PPL.

I have read some of the previous writing about this on PPRune but I am still not clear quite how to proceed. I have a JAA-PPL with ME, night and IMC ratings/qualifications attached.

I wish to obtain an FAA PPL to fly an N-Reg craft in UK and Europe (ASAP).

I understand that I can fly VFR in UK in N-Reg craft on UK PPL, but not in Europe. I have a link to the CAA from previous PPrune thread for license verification and a link to the FAA for the US application.

I am unclear what to do when they ask on FAA site for me to nominate a US FSDO where I would like to apply for the license. At the moment I would like to use the FAA PPL obtained from UK PPL only in Europe

If anyone has done this recently I would be most grateful for any clues to make this easier.

[S-Works]

You need to fill in the CAA verification forms and pay the CAA to release your details to the FAA. This form is an SRG 1160.

You then have to complete an FAA Verification of Authenticity of a Foriegn Licence form and submit it to the FAA in Oklohoma. You have to nominate an FSDO in the USA that you will visit and have the interview and collect your temporary based on certificate. This will allow you to get a BFR and fly. In a couple of months you will get the permanent plastic card. The FAA will allow you privileges at nigh with you night rating and SEP and MEP class ratings.

There was rumour that Tom Houston is able to issue certain certificates on behalf of the New York FSDO but I am not sure if that includes the initial of a based on certificate. You would need to contact him and ask.

[echobeach]

Bose X. Thanks. This means I suspect that there is no way of doing this without going to the states. I thought that it was possible if you were getting an FAA license only on the back of the UK PPl to do this here without a US flight check. It was for this reason particularly that I was asking the question as I would prefer if there is anyway not to do this in US. Can one not do this in UK with a FAA instructor / examiner. There is one at my home field.
I guess I could phone the FAA but I had just wondered if anyone has done it without the trip to US. All my flying will be in Europe

[S-Works]

Unfortunately that is the problem with operating under a flag of convenience. Sometimes it is not that convenient for the basic stuff!!!

Where you will be doing your flying makes no difference. An FAA certificate is an ICAO certificate and as such is supposed to be under the same standards world wide.

You can do BFR's etc. (see seperate discussions on the need for BFR in the UK) with a UK based FAA Instructor. There are many good ones around.

The problem is you need to get the certificate first and that involves a trip in person to the FSDO. But as I said before it might be worth investigating the Tom Hughston route for getting the certificate, but I understand his fees are more than a weekend in New York for a visit to the FSDO.

[youngskywalker]

I have no connection to the above but I believe he can be contacted at FAA UK CORPORATE AVIATION FLIGHT TESTING, FLIGHT TRAINING AND LASERGRADE TESTING FACILITY (http://www.businessair.us)

[echobeach]

Thanks for advice. I have persuaded Mrs EB that a bit of early autumn sun in florida is called for whilst we sort out FAA license.

Whilst I am doing this I have searched for confirmation that I can fly N reg craft in UK on my JAA PPl unsuccesfully. Is this correct ?

[IO540]

Whilst I am doing this I have searched for confirmation that I can fly N reg craft in UK on my JAA PPl unsuccesfully. Is this correct ?

Reference FAR 61.3 - you can fly an N-reg worldwide on a foreign license provided the license was issued by the airspace owner.

So you can fly an N-reg in the UK on a UK issued JAA PPL, or in Germany on a German issued JAA PPL, etc.

There is a bit of a grey area around this but the above is the strict interpretation of 61.3.

If you have a JAA PPL, you can get a standalone FAA PPL in around 2 days' flight training (depends on currency on the available type, etc) but you also need the FAA PPL written exam (typ. $100 in the USA), an FAA medical, and you need to pass the FAA PPL oral exam. Plus you need to meet the FAA PPL night flight requirements - the JAA NQ does not alone meet these and this catches out a fair number of pilots.

It's not trivial but is worth doing - piggyback licenses are just a hassle nowadays. They became trendy years ago when one could get one without going to the USA.

[cockney steve]

Not wishing to sidetrack the thread, but it would appear that there's a strict time-limit for N-reg aircraft to operate in UK/Europe, before they have to be removed from US registration and re-registered in country of operation/domicile.


The info is all in the "rotorheads" forum, -thread on pilot landing a Hughes 500 on a town-centre multistorey car-park roof.



this was an "N" reg. aircraft.

As a matter of interest, what advantage is gained from these various "cross border" licensing/registering arrangements?

[IO540]

but it would appear that there's a strict time-limit for N-reg aircraft to operate in UK/Europe, before they have to be removed from US registration and re-registered in country of operation/domicile.

No such regulation, anywhere in Europe. None at all. Proposals, yes, and much has been written/commented on them here recently. If something does happen, it is not likely before 2012. Do a search on EASA proposals.

what advantage is gained from these various "cross border" licensing/registering arrangements?

In short, most people do it to get the worldwide IFR privileges of the FAA IR. The country of IR issue must match the country of aircraft reg.

JAA PPL/IR = 14 exams (7 PPL and 7 IR), FAA PPL/IR = 2 exams (1 PPL 1 IR). JAA CPL/IR = 21 exams (7 PPL, then 14 CPL/IR), FAA CPL/IR = 3 exams (1 PPL, 1 CPL, 1 IR). Europe has gold plated everything.

Other benefits include a more reasonable (FAA) certification regime for parts, modifications, and even whole airframes. The FAA has a reasonably clear definition of Major Mods.

Less common benefits are on the medical front, where e.g. Europe has taken the ICAO audiogram (for IR) recommendation and gold plated it into a mandatory requirement - but only on the Initial medical; on a Renewal medical you get a Demonstrated Ability option which makes the whole JAA Initial thing a mockery anyway.

Routine maintenance is not cheaper on the N-reg than on the G-reg.

[S-Works]

JAA PPL/IR = 14 exams (7 PPL and 7 IR), FAA PPL/IR = 2 exams (1 PPL 1 IR). JAA CPL/IR = 21 exams (7 PPL, then 14 CPL/IR), FAA CPL/IR = 3 exams (1 PPL, 1 CPL, 1 IR). Europe has gold plated everything.

Oh god, here we go again.
JAA PPL - 5 easy exams

JAA ATPL - 14 Exams
JAA IR - 7 Exams
JAA CPL - 7 Exams

JAA CPL/IR - 14 exams or JAA ATPL - 14 exams

Europe has gold plated above the ICAO requirements, but none of it is difficult, it just takes a little bit of effort.

All discussions like this do is make those who choose to follow the FAA route seem to be short cut seekers and corner cutters which does them no credit at all, just waves the red flag to the European bulls.

In fact the FAA stuff is no easier than the JAA stuff, just presented differently and in some respects it is harder to do as you get less chance to get it wrong.

The JAA route just seems daunting when you first tackle it but with a little effort and logic easy enough to get into. It also saves you having to learn all about American specific stuff that you will never see in Europe.

[echobeach]

I must point out that the only reason for me asking about an FFA licence is that I have been given an opportunity to fly an eye wateringly beautiful twin, but one that is on the N Reg.

I have been continuing down the JAA route having done PPL, ME IMC etc and am about to start JAA IR. The whole plan has just entered a period of unforseen upheaval having been offered the chance to fly the plane, that happens to be N Reg

As far as I can see the FAA route it is not really an easier route especially if the day job makes it difficult to get away. Local study, flying in the airspace I will be using and flying with local training for the IR, all seem an advatange to me.

However opportunities to fly craft so good come but once in a lifetime, and so I am off it seems to US to convert my PPL. I can see this will be a challenge. I have just spent 20 minutes listening to recorded messages at the FAA whilst waiting unsuccesfully to talk to someone.

[IO540]

Local study, flying in the airspace I will be using and flying with local training for the IR, all seem an advatange to me.You may be missing something here, echobeach.

The FAA accepts all foreign training, no matter where done. You don't need to train with an FAA instructor. You can train for all the requirements of any FAA license or a rating with for example a JAA instructor, in a G-reg.

Only the last 3 hours (which need to be done within the 60 days preceeding the checkride) need to be done - for practical reasons - with an FAA CFI/CFII.

This differs from JAA training which does not accept any training done elsewhere. You could be a 20,000hr ATP who clocked up his hours in the USA, Australia, etc, but the JAA IR will make you sit every hour with a JAA IR instructor, all over again. The only exception to this is when you are converting say an ICAO IR to a JAA one, when the 50/55hr min dual training requirements falls to around 15hrs. And there is a similar conversion route for ICAO PPLs (this is a UK only one, I believe).

I did all the flying requirements for the FAA PPL in the UK.

I did all the flying requirements for the FAA IR in the UK. Did some more flying in the USA because that's where the checkride was.

And I did the whole of the FAA CPL in the UK.

So, you can do your whole FAA IR training in the European airway system! Nothing gets better than that. Even JAA IR training contains very little airways flying (most of it is done on sims or OCAS), and practically no representative (long distance) airways flying.

Actually, you could do a load of JAA IR training here in the UK and then chuck it in and sod off to the USA and use every hour of those logbook entries towards an FAA IR. The FAA doesn't care what the original "purpose" of some flight was; why should they? If it meets the requirements it's good enough.

So you could do a load of JAA IR training, making sure (by an agreement with your instructor) that you are structuring some flights to also meet FAA IR requirements (e.g. the 250nm x/c flight with 3 diff approaches), and then you could use those flights to get an FAA IR, and if that N-reg twin is still around then you could go for that and either continue the JAA IR flying, or dump it.

Similarly, you could train in the Uk towards the IMC Rating, again making sure (by a private agreement with your instructor) that the flying is appropriately structured, and then, whether or not you have passed the IMCR, go for the FAA IR. The only trick here is that the 250nm x/c flight needs to be done in the airways so the instructor will need an IR and the plane will need to be airways legal. And then you could come back after a bit of time and get yourself a JAA IR with just 15hrs' flying and "just" sitting all the JAA exams :) - a route which gets you flying IFR very quickly (in an N-reg) and saves a whole bundle of expensive JAA IR flight training.

Historically, many FAA training outfits around the UK used to claim that the only training that counts towards an FAA license/rating has to be done with FAA instructors. This is bollox :)

Obviously, the route to follow is the one which bets fits with your strategic objectives and which you can best fit into your life. Just remember that there is more than one way to get from A to B, and I have tried to illustrate a few options.

I have just spent 20 minutes listening to recorded messages at the FAA whilst waiting unsuccesfully to talk to someone. Why? The FAA are pretty unresponsive at the best of times. But I never had any reason to talk to them, all the way from zero to the FAA CPL/IR.

[moonym20]

I would just like to point out to something (and is by no means a snipe)

there are some of us in the flying fraternity who operate under the FAA licenses because we have no other choice. We are in limited position when the CAA place one brick wall after another in your way with no resolve :ugh:

Some of us have a fierce passion for aviation, simply put those of us in that unfortunate position will pursue every means to reach our goal, that includes making forced compromises.

I would consider it offensive to be tarred with the same brush..... accused of going FAA to save any effort and cut a few corners :ouch:

[echobeach]

IO you are quite right. I was concerned i was missing something. I have found all the advice here most useful.

For me the biggest problem is taking time off and going away for flying training. I had not realised you could do the majority of flying training here for the FAA IR in G reg craft.

My first priority is to obtain an FAA PPL on the basis of current JAA license. I was phoning FAA just to see I had got all the rules clear before I head off to US and find I have missed any number of vital steps. However with advice from here and the FAA web site it all seems clearer.

[S-Works]

FAA Corner Cutters
I would just like to point out to something (and is by no means a snipe)

there are some of us in the flying fraternity who operate under the FAA licenses because we have no other choice. We are in limited position when the CAA place one brick wall after another in your way with no resolve

Some of us have a fierce passion for aviation, simply put those of us in that unfortunate position will pursue every means to reach our goal, that includes making forced compromises.

I would consider it offensive to be tarred with the same brush..... accused of going FAA to save any effort and cut a few corners


Sadly, those that extoll the virtues of following the FAA systems over the JAA system to pursue personal avenues by claiming it is 'easier' 'less onerous' blah blah blah do exactly what you are worried about.

The sad fact is that the FAA system is beyond doubt simple and logicical. Rubbing the noses of the eurocrats in this simple fact does nothing to further and everything to damage the cause.

Perhaps something for the FAA 'evangelists' to think about.....

[S-Works]

Food for thought for those giving advice.

FAA TRAINING CONDUCTED BY NON-FAA INSTRUCTORS

** The FAA FAR/AIM indicates that some training received from a non-FAA instructor may be credited toward the award of an FAA license or rating. All required training for an FAA license or rating must be conducted by a current and authorized instructor and every task in which instruction was given must be clearly stated & endorsed as indicated in the FAR/AIM. In addition, CERTIFIED proof from the non-FAA issuing authority that the non-FAA instructor was authorized to conduct such training OUTSIDE the US will be required on the day. Training for an Instrument rating received from a UK IMC instructor is not acceptable toward the award of any ICAO Instrument Rating.

Note: Refer to the FAR/AIM for the applicable rating or license sought. The required training & endorsements conducted by an AUTHORIZED instructor must be readily identifiable by the examiner. If not, then you must receive such training prior to meeting with the examiner.

[IO540]

and the source of the above "information" is?

(I know the answer)

:O :O :O :O :O :O :O :O :O :O :O