Change at SAA

[JONOAHBFN]

With the resignation, loss of Alec Erwin, what will happen to Shack. Will TAJ come back in his place.

JONOAHBFN.http://static.pprune.org/images/icons/46.gif

[Beta Light]

loss of Alec Erwin

That is no loss!!

[skychick2]

That is a MASSIVE GAIN !!! Viva !

[unstable load]

Whoever the new bloke is, he will need to furnish and equip a whole new siding for the gravy train so we will end up with yet another situation similar or not too different to the current state of affairs.

Still, we can only hope.............

[ARENDIII]

Good Luck for 2010 SAA!
If you are still around that is.
ArendIII.

[dikkes]

Mabandla: SAA boss staying
Oct 1 2008 10:52AM
Cape Town - The chief executive of South African Airways Khaya Ngqula, has been given a ringing endorsement by his political boss, the Minister of Public Enterprises Brigitte Mabandla, who has just taken over from Alec Erwin. Giving a written reply to a parliamentary question circulated on Wednesday, the minister said that at this stage no consideration is being given to replacing the CEO of SAA.
"The airline operates in a tough commercial environment and the current management team and CEO continue to sustain SAA's high service standard in a difficult market environment," she said.
"In addition, the current management team and CEO should be commended on the implementation of a comprehensive and challenging restructuring programme that has enabled the airline to post an operating profit of R123m prior to restructuring costs at the end of 2007/08."
She explained that Ngqula's contract expires in October 2010. His remuneration for the past four years has been R2 295 000 in 2004/05, R6 850 000 which included a R1.85m performance bonus in 2005/06, R5 000 000 in 2006/07, and R5 687 669.40 including a retention premium of R687 699.40 in 2007/08.
- I-Net Bridge

[Setron]

In addition, the current management team and CEO should be commended...
His remuneration for the past four years has been R2 295 000 in 2004/05, R6 850 000 which included a R1.85m performance bonus in 2005/06, R5 000 000 in 2006/07, and R5 687 669.40 including a retention premium of R687 699.40 in 2007/08

Bla,bla,bla...

->
SAA boss rakes in close to R20m
Oct 1 2008 11:16AM

Cape Town - SA Airways CEO Khaya Ngqula has been paid almost R20 million since his appointment on October 15 2004, it emerged on Wednesday.
In a written reply to a parliamentary question, Public Enterprises Minister Brigitte Mabandla said Ngqula's salary and fund contributions totalled R2 295,000 in 2004/05.
In 2005/06, he received a salary and fund contributions of R5m, as well as a performance bonus of R1 850 000.
His salary and fund contributions again totalled R5m in 2006/07, and again in 2007/08, when he also received a "retention premium" of R687 669.
In the four years he has been SAA CEO, Ngqula has thus taken home R19 832,669.
Mabandla said Ngqula's contract would expire in October 2010.
"At this stage no consideration is being given to replacing the CEO of SAA. The airline operates in a tough commercial environment and the current management team and CEO continue to sustain SAA's high service standard in a difficult market environment," she said.
SAA posted huge losses in 2006/07 and was thrown a R1.3bn lifeline by government with promises of more, subject to its return to profitability.
SAA's losses totalled R883m, with operating costs of R21.3 billion outstripping income of R20.6bn, for the year ending March 2007.
The airline has reportedly asked for R3bn from the National Treasury this financial year to offset losses sustained in the last financial year.
However, in July this year, Ngqula said SAA's restructuring had resulted in more than R1bn in costs being "taken out" of the organisation.
SAA reported a turnaround to post a R123m net profit (excluding restructuring costs) from ongoing operations in the year to end March 2008, against the loss of R883m the previous year. - Sapa

[dash431]

Ngqula is to SAA what Mugabe is to democracy... You've gotta love Africa!

[WhinerLiner]

Oooo....a raw nerve.

SAA is a mess and deserves all the bad PR it gets. You may not like the fact but it doesn't change the reality.

[Danjou]

Wow Pitch&Fan, did somebody touch a nerve? If people without MBAs can't have their say, there's not much point to this whole forum is there?

[Pitch&Fan]

Danjou,

You are quite right about people being able to have their say. What touches my nerves (Yes... It does) is the vindictive, ill-considered manner in which it is done. Hence my vindictive style of reply.

SAA most certainly does have it's challenges... An even that may be a gross understatement, but it is simply fascinating, and indeed disturbing to see how so many (I'm assuming here) non-SAA people are rabidly keen to witness this airline's demise.

While I am no particular fan of Khaya's, and consider his remuneration an insulting indication of self-enrichment at an inappropriate time in the company's history, I have been pretty impressed by the success of the restructuring program that he initiated.

Now, if this forum could become a place where we, as professional pilots could constructively brain-storm solutions to the industry's many challenges, it would elicit less emotionally driven writing, and become a valuable intellectual resource.

Until then however... It will, unfortunately remain a place where bored pilots vent their frustrated spleens, and other bored pilots (like me, for example) respond in kind.

The Tech-Log forum on this website is a good example of pilots working together in a constructive manner to find solutions that would remain otherwise elusive.

Cheers,

Pitch&Fan

[DASHER 8]

This is very entertaining !

Please keep it up ? :D

[Lifes-a-Beech]

I love PPRUNE threads on SAA - they are always so entertaining!

Having had a chat to friends of mine who have the misfortune of being employed by this model organisation (although, naturally they don't - or he doesn't - think so), it never ceases to amaze me the complete propaganda and apparent brainwashed mentality which these supposedly competent and intelligent pilots portray when discussing SAA - think for yourselves buggers, you are all such a bunch of sheep, bleating on about how superb SAA is! I say privatisation is the way forward and then lets see how things go.

[Lifes-a-Beech]

Actually P(B)itch&Groan - I can like to wear the jean pant - they can feel very comfortable, especially when I've drinked so much beer! There are much more space in my pant (for obvious reasons) than there are in those tight pilot pant the boys at SAA can like to wear!

Take a chill-pill Happiness, it isn't such a bad experience when you join the real world and listen to what others have to say - now back to the thread, which isn't half as amusing as watching our friend here nearly blow a gasket!

[I.R.PIRATE]

PitchandFan, management obviously sharing is aap-twak with you sycophants now? You okes are talking crap from the same branch now. Seems thier smoke and mirrors have gotten to you.

How many days will SAA's doors remain open, if they were privatised tomorrow and actually had to make a profit to survive. If there was no more tax-tit to suck on?

Parasites.

You still have hope if you are willing to admit management needs to pull its winky out of cat, if not, you might still learn one day.

Oh and ps - you will never guess who I work for, because you obviously think its for the competition....

[WhinerLiner]

This may come as a surprise to you but many of us really have no desire to work for SAA. It is a shocking entity, filled with dishonest people, run for political ends and commercially unviable. The fact that you pay your rent from it every month doesn’t make SAA okay, it makes you a leech on the South African taxpaying public too. Not only is there a life beyond SAA, there is an entire world were the scabby little airline doesn’t really matter all that much.

Anyhow, where exactly is this bar so high? Customer service is pathetic, its financially decrepit, SAAT have no capabilities left, its safety record is average at best, its filled with greedy thieves, and its ethics have been subject to review by both the Courts and Competition Commission on several occasions.

Since you consider yourself to be an English expert, try only starting new sentences With a Capital letter. Oh, and there is no hyphen in ‘bottom feeder’. For the rest your spelling with the single syllable words was exemplary.

Finally, is anyone there really that loyal, or is nobody else willing to employ them?

[Beta Light]

A-league operation

Unless A stand for Africa I don't think you're in touch with the big world of aviation.

[Dark - Knight]

Pitch & Fan you're not shedding much of a decent light on SAA pilots are you? Frankly I would get off your high horse and stop making out that SAA is the be all and end all of aviation, because quite honestly it ain't. I understand you want to stand up for what you believe in and rightly so but no need to attack and undermine others who have no idea what it's like working for the company.
And before you start degrading and judging me, I happen to work for the airline. Yes I made my choice and am fortuate to be there BUT I do not sit on my high horse and pretend nothing is wrong within the company. We all know it has its problems, money is wasted and certain esteemed leaders and others are paid numerous amounts of cash to do nothing. It makes me sick to my stomach, but hey we can't change it and never will!
But the rest of you on this thread also have to realise that we are all part of the aviation community, we do the same job, we have the same ideals and it just so happens that we are part of SAA. We don't make the rules, we just follow them so in essence realise that if we as a pilot body could change the face of SAA tomorrow, be assured we would. But that ain't going to happen...so we, like you, carry on our daily lives/jobs like any of you working at Comair, 1 Time, Link, SAX, etc........
Nuff said.....hope my spelling and use of grammar is ok pitch & fan.......:ok:

[Pitch&Fan]

Ok & fair enough. I'll hop off my high horse for now, and reign in the stirring!

Cheers,

Pitch&Fan

PS: Nice to read a balanced, objective posting for a change though, even if you don't altogether agree with me.

[WhinerLiner]

Honestly never applied for a job at SAA. Heard it was full of guys like you so I figured it would be best to do something enjoyable with my time.

[brand wessels]

Good day to you all…

Though I am a very passionate commercial pilot I do not earn much of a living out of the industry and mostly work as a management consultant assisting with corporate turnarounds. This I am doing after 20 years of corporate experience in various industries. Though I intensely dislike the SAA operation for being a drag to the SA taxpayer (much like Escom and the CAA) I do not think any of these parastatal’s has commercially changed much in the last two decades or that it will change much within the medium term. Apart from the obvious BEE challenge that is.

I suspect that all its pilots (and probably most employees not on the board) are just too glad to have a decent paying job – irrelevant as to where the money comes from. As such one can not blame them and in my view this has nothing to do with who’s the better employee (or pilot). Nor can anybody in the aviation industry stand the moral high ground – there are very few aviation concerns, if any, in SA that delivers a world class attitude, level of service, operation or profit. And I am comparing with other industries worldwide when I say this. SAA will remain part of the economical landscape (warts and all).

What I find rather hard to swallow is the way that my fellow aviators sometimes love to pull each other down on these public forums – it seems like an industry imploding on itself and I have rarely witnessed such division. Is this a simple case of SAA being “The Parabats” and everybody else just “no good normal infantry” and cannon fodder? It’s bad enough that just about every “non-pilot” body in this industry seems focused on putting these “arrogant egocentric pilots” in their place - do we have to do that as well?

But hey – what do I know…..

Have a great day.
Brand Wessels

[Dark - Knight]

Honestly never applied for a job at SAA. Heard it was full of guys like you so I figured it would be best to do something enjoyable with my time
Whinerliner....not at all chap!!!!

It's unfortunate that a few individuals tarnish the reputation of so many. I too had the misconception that SAA was full of egotistical individuals and after joining realised that this was the furthest thing from the truth! In fact I cannot say that I have met or come across any individual in my flying career at SAA that fits this mould.(Although Pitch & Fan is coming close to this perception)!!!!!
As I mentioned in my previous post we do a job just as any other pilot in the industry, we just happen to do it for the national carrier and certain individuals begrudge us that. Professional jealousy maybe? Well so be it...but I do my job as professionally and as safe as anyone else....egotistical...no way...just proud of my achievement and happy to be where I am!

[FatFlaps]

Sorry to ruin the party, but back in the day, I worked for SAA, for most of my career actually. Granted, it hasn't been recently, but I found all those chaps, myself included (ah the beauty of youth and clarity of hindsight) to be incredibly arrogant and even worse, what a bunch of chauvinists. We really were a bunch of dogs and sadly not much has changed, except that the organisation has degenerated. If I had my time again, I'd stay well clear.

[Pitch&Fan]

In all the years that I've been flying (and even reading about flying), there have always been big egos involved. To deny that most pilots are egocentric is simply a denial of a very well documented truth. This has always existed in aviation, and those who fly for SAA are certainly no exception. Competitiveness is a good thing... Slander is not.

What gets my goat is the persistent derogatory commentary that comes from a few disgruntled pilots outside of SAA about the airline. This criticism is very seldom objective, reasonable or accurately apportioned.

To imagine that SAA pilots will forever read this drivel and never respond is a fantastical perception. We have many in our ranks that would manage the moment passionately if this conversation was conducted face to face with the likes of some of the chaps posting on this thread.

So let's get real folks. Criticism... Sure. It can only help to keep us honest, and there's always the hope that such criticism will help to improve matters, whatever they may be.

But, bitter, twisted and destructive vitriol originating from a few jealous, or slightly dim-witted individuals... Sorry , but it simply isn't the ****.

And to anyone who may be reading this thread... By no means should you let my expressions tar all the rest of SAA's pilots with the same brush. I'm altogether on my own mission! How any of the others wish to respond is entirely their own prerogative.

Cheers,

Pitch&Fan

[FatFlaps]

I agree P&F, a man like you should have his goat to himself

[Shrike200]

...we just happen to do it for the national carrier and certain individuals begrudge us that. Professional jealousy maybe?

Boom! Right into the good 'ol cliched SAA comeback! Got it in three!

Guys, you're missing the point - you, as SAA pilots, get targeted on these forums because you're all that's available. Plus, you're normally your own worst enemies. Believe me, if SAA management, or even better, the clowns in government who allow the inverse Robin Hood behaviour (stealing from the poor, and giving to the rich) to continue were here, rest assured that they'd be taking a flaming.

The point that you tend to miss, is that whilst there may be 'disgruntled pilots' who like to bash SAA because they didn't get in (and nowdays, how many of those are there really?), the fact of the matter is that if you persist for long enough, and do your work, you'll get in - you're not particularly special (not meant in a bad way). You're entitled to feel proud of your achievements. BUT, their actually are many pilots out there who really don't want to be there. I know, I know, you have to think outside the SAA box on this one, but it's true. You really should learn to appreciate the basic argument that other pilots simply don't enjoy contributing to your salary, which is already quite substantially higher than the national average, duty for duty (ie B738/A319 short haul crew compared to Comair, 1Time etc.)

So please, you're letting the side down by lapsing into the 'you're just jealous' argument.

[i-Robot]

can't we all just get a long:ugh:

[Gyro Nut]

One of the biggest SAA moaners I know got into SAA recently, funny, I don't hear him moaning any more!

Not too sure how many younger guys would want to turn down a direct entry on a A319 or B738. It might be different if you are in your early forties and can't wait the 12-13 years it take for command at SAA.

[hellothere2]

People tend to forget that SAX is - exactly like SAA - DPE-owned. Yet it runs well, has a great CEO and ACTUALLY MAKES MONEY! Surely that must indicate that something is rotten in SAA?:hmm:

[Pitch&Fan]

What it does indicate is that SAX is a well run airline, with a great CEO, and that it makes money... Which is super, and most commendable indeed. The current CEO is the first to really shine (and be respected by the pilots) since the days of Don Wallace, and the Deluces. It also goes to show that an affirmative action, woman CEO can do a great job of running a very complex and challenging business. Refreshing, encouraging stuff indeed! I wish she would move across to SAA!

SAA however, is by nature and history, a more complex organization than SAX, with heavily entrenched staffing, cultural, and scale challenges. One (and maybe the only) way to sort this out is a total, and very difficult thinning out, and staff retrenchment move. The idea here is simply to reduce the number of mouths each aircraft is required to feed, so-to-speak. How to choose which ones though… Let’s not forget union involvement, and judgement mistakes. This will require some very, very good, and very tough leadership.

The CEO who has the guts to do this will most likely face death threats, and other nasty things along the way. Not an easy task at all, and one which will place heavy ethical and moral burdens on the organization. To get someone to handle this burden, will cost big bucks, and that's a reality we will not easily escape. Along with such change, comes the inevitable erosion of staff and stakeholder confidence in the airline. This usually precedes a big resignation wave, of staff that the airline will really need, to keep the show on the road. Some of this has already taken place, as we have all seen.

If this had to come about as a result of privatization, it would be an even more difficult task to manage.

What I am certain of though is the viability of the airline. I, and many others among you have done the reading and thinking on this. Sure… I accept that many will not agree. So be it. None of us are actually wearing the repairman's shoes anyway.

The South African world-image, and economy will most definitely develop a bad cough if SAA were to fold. This will not benefit the taxpayer, whether he likes SAA or not. Now is not the time to pull the rug out under SAA. It will be to everyone’s detriment for a long, long time.

This is, once again, just a personal expression of opinion, and should not be taken to represent that of anyone else but myself.

Cheers, and enjoyable flying to all, I’m going to stop my nonsense now.

Pitch & Fan

[evanb]

Ummm .... since when has SAX made money?

[nugpot]

since when has SAX made money?

Profits since 2005, solvent since 2007. Paid off 13 a/c in 2008.

[Trawler]

SAX showed an operational profit in 1996 and the Canadians sold out and left. The new management and subsequent management screwed it up good. The 2005 profit an operating profit but overall loss. The last two years by screwing crew and running routes without competition and getting very cheap aircraft. This new year will be interesting. Especially with a fuel budget 200% over and the handling contract budget blown by the end of Aug.

[hiflyerz]

To Brand Wessels....:ok::ok:::D:D

[evanb]

It depends how one defines proiftability I guess ... the books say profit but they get half their costs for feee: free revenue management, ticketing, feed and branding from SAA! When the government tried to sell SAX in 2007 they couldn't find a buyer since without a guarantee of the franchise agreement with SAA it was worth nothing! I worked on a valuation project for a potential buyer - if we took away everything that it gets from SAA it was a dissaster!

[nugpot]

That's interesting evan, because the financials that we get to see at briefings contain significant costs to SAA for revenue management, passenger handling and millions to SAA for advertising.

I actually think that without SAX's contributions, SAA's picture would look even bleaker. It is not as if SAA's costs will decrease if SAX went their own way and the SAX route structure is planned around SAA's main routes and international connections. A recent change to SAX's GBE frequencies had the SAA knickers in a knot, because we then connected seamlessly with BA's international flight times and not to SAA's.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Is this a simple case of SAA being “The Parabats” and everybody else just “no good normal infantry” and cannon fodder?

Parabats? More like jam stealing chefs...




...or moonbats.












Lights blue touch paper and retires...:E

[Setron]

S-man! :ok:
ex SunAir crew and possibly Nationwide feel they may still have been around
Dont forget "Flightstar" (just another state-murder-victim)
To all who think SAA is immortal, cause the idiots up there can not let go:
-Swissair going down ? Never, they are to well organised and then there is the national pride of the moneyhorders there between the mountains... -

Now how organised is SAA compared to Swissair? Or are you all banking on the stupidity of the government? (OK, ok, that could be a sure bet!)

[Gyro Nut]

Yes, I agree in a free economy, a government subsidised airline like SAA has an unfair advantage, but let me ask this thought provoking question:

SAA is one of the oldest airlines in the world, and started flying commercially in SA well before the others even thought about it (SAA started in 1934 taking over Union Airways, Comair 1946). The opposition started knowing that they were going to have to take on a goverment subsidised airline, and now they whinge!

Imagine starting up as an electricity supplier and tring to take on Eskom. Come on please!!! And then that same opposition then whinges about Eskom being government subsidised.

I'm not condoning a bottomless pit like SAA seems to be at times, the bad management, and the salaries the fat cats in upper management earn there, but just the issue of SAA having an unfair advantage.

Does anyone agree with this logic, or is it only me?

[evanb]

Gyro has a point, its like the guy who buys a house near an airport and then complains about the noise!

SAX pays SAA only half of what other airlines (mostly foreign) would pay for the same services! They are paying much less than the going rate!

[Setron]

the issue of SAA having an unfair advantage
If a loss making company is getting money they don't deserve and others are not getting the same amount, then this is simply put an unfair advantage!
This has nothing to do with who farted first!
Immagine what Comair, 1Time or Airlink could have done with that kind of money...
What is rather annoying is the arrogance of the people that get their salary payed by the taxpayers of SA(this includes all the pilots from the competition!) and still insist that SAA is doing well and deserves all the rights.
Hey, if you rake it in, god bless you, but don't loos your sense of reality!:=
Keep always in mind, you are living on borrowed time (borrowed from your fellow pilots that work for money making companies and who pay for you with their lower salaries!)http://static.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon11.gif

[Q4NVS]

Having heard the tiresome "Bun Fights" about Taxpayers rights and not, I thought the detail below would put everything into perspective.

Thereafter it is up to each individual (SAA and non SAA) to make his/her own assumptions with regards to "who" pays for what at SAA.

SARS Income during 2006-2007 Financials (paid to date): R 493bn
PAYE Contributions to R 493bn total: R140bn (28.39%)
(If you want the figures for 2007-2008, do your own search...)

Company Contributors: 1 Million Companies
Self Employed Individuals: 350 000 People
PAYE Contributors: 6 Million People

Assumptions made (for Statistical purposes):
SAA Bailout at average of R 3.5bn per Financial Year
All PAYE Contributors footing an equal share of the Bailout (I know this is Theoretical)

PAYE Individual Contribution to SAA yearly Bailout: R 165.61

What is rather annoying is the arrogance of the people that get their salary payed by the taxpayers of SA(this includes all the pilots from the competition!)

I am not for one minute saying that SAA is in good shape, but...

Considering the fact that whether we like it or not, SAA forms an integral part of the South African Infrastructure, if as a Taxpayer a drop of my money must be used to fund it - then atleast let it be on a "Flag Carrier" rather than a British Flag carrying Franchise, for example.

:zzz:

[i-Robot]

I'm sure the ex SunAir crew and possibly Nationwide feel they may still have been around had SAA (and SAX) not had this economic edge.

When Sun Air and Nationwide (Vernon had a lot to do with it) closed down, SAA was only too glad to hire their pilots. In fact, Nationwide's chief pilot started at SAA this month.

Maybe we should not bite the hand that feeds us....just a thought.

[Anti-Skid Inop]

Nationwide never had a chief pilot!!! It had Fleet Captains and a Chief Training Captain - that's it.

[Avi8tor]

....as a Taxpayer a drop of my money must be used to fund it - then atleast let it be on a "Flag Carrier" rather than a British Flag carrying Franchise, for example.I rather liked your post up to that point, but then it went off the rails. Why would you have problem with a listed, TAX PAYING 'British Flag carrying franchise'?

Using the argument that SAA is "integral part of the South African Infrastructure" holds no water. The rest of the world has shown that airlines must be allowed to sink or swim. Funny how unions at Alitalia had a huge attitude change when they were told the party was over.

[divinehover]

I've said it once and I'll say again. As long as the Goverment dictates how SAA should be run and who should run it they must be prepared to pay for their lack of wisdom. If you don't like this fact you have the right to vote out the present goverment.

SAA has the potential to be profatable. It operates fuel effeciant a/c on routes with good load factors.

SAA's problem is that politcal interference takes precedent over commercial sense. Every Tom, Dick and Harry taking a dig at SAA drivers is rather pointless. The pilots would run the company alot differently I promise you. This is a pilots forum, if someone wants to take a dig at the we fly the a/c that's fine but please don't bitch at us about the way the company is run. There's nothing we can do about it.

[Setron]

Yup Q4NVS, you hit the nails head:
SAA forms an integral part of the South African Infrastructure
We all pay for:
-excellent roads and superior traffic facilities throughout the country
-speedy and friendly service delivery from government departments
-an oversupply of well trained and dedicated law-enforcement personel
-a super stable currency
and a trademarket that is the envy of the world

So way should we not give all our aboundent extra money to the shining diamond of Southafrica = SAA After all it is SAA!
Give it to the needy from SAA, because you would anyway only piss it against the wall..... hang on, this is actually very much the same,....

Yea Q4NVS, the southafrican infrastructure is as good as a swiss-watch (made in china) , ups I said the s-word again.

One day you must tell me what the colour of the sky is in your world...

[Avi8tor]

Every Tom, Dick and Harry taking a dig at SAA drivers is rather pointless.Nobody is having a dig at the crew at SAA. Some of my best mates drive the buses at SAA. And the fact that SAAPA is milking the cow, more power to them.

That said, I also dont wanna hear nashing of teeth and tearing of robes if and when the taxpayer decided the music stops and the party is over. I wanna see how things go down when all the SAA unions are given a 'Alitalia' style 'sink or swim' deal.

[Talon1]

The South African world-image, and economy will most definitely develop a bad cough if SAA were to fold. This will not benefit the taxpayer, whether he likes SAA or not. Now is not the time to pull the rug out under SAA. It will be to everyone’s detriment for a long, long time.



What the F..K!! Is this the same "South African world-image" that our local government has destroyed?? Do you honestly think the eyes of the world are focussed on SAA at this point in our history???? Mmmmm I wonder...

Screw gold, diamonds, platinum, agriculture etc. etc. You obviously believe that SAA is a major contributor to our "booming economy"!?!? Mmmmm I wonder.. It may suprise you that only a handfull of people like yourself will loose any sleep at the demise of our esteemed national carrier! [ I do however regret the loss of jobs for all those that earn an honest income at this peach of a company, bar one or two skygods!]

But your absolute pearl of wisdom must be " not benefit the taxpayer". Mmmm I wonder... how could any Country possibly benefit from CANCELING a couple of BILLION RAND DEBT every year...go figure?!?!

How long can you flog a dead horse?
And to whose detriment?

[thincatblue]

Well said Divinehover, I see none of the SAA pilot bashers are responding to your statement, obviously not fitting into their "way of seeing things" and that all that is rotten in the state of SAA is to be laid at their (SAA pilots/ skygods /whatever)doorsteps.

This is exactly it - get the political meddelers out of SAA and then judge the operation- it would be a completely different story. The pilots/staff is doing exactly what all the detractors would do in the same situation - make the best of the situation - making hay while the ANC/goverment sun shines!

[Doodlebug2]

....and "OUT". :bored::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz:

[thincatblue]

Point taken about this not only being a Pilot forum Suitcaseman.

I will also ask you to re - read the previous posts - I do not see the SAA pilot group 'defending' the company - we are defending our rights as a highly respected group of individuals that are well trained (as are others in the industry before you throw your toys) that are doing the best we can under the company called SAA.

We are the first to admit that things are askew in the organisation, and have tried numerous and varied ways to help remedy the situation. SAA is and will for the foreseeable future remain firmly within goverment control and under their directorship and they do not take advise or suggested help kindly.

I (and I believe most of the pilot group) would welcome the day of complete privatizasion with open arms. When SAA is allowed to hire the right people for the job, irrespective of race or colour. Where management is appointed on skill, qualifications and experience and not on whom you know in a higer position/goverment.

We can only then truly judge the nature of SAA competiveness and success in the industry.

'over'

[flyknight]

As long as the Goverment dictates how SAA should be run and who should run it they must be prepared to pay for their lack of wisdom.

SAA has the potential to be profatable.

SAA's problem is that politcal interference takes precedent over commercial sense.


:D

The pilots would run the company alot differently I promise you.


We can only dream about an Airline run by pilots!! This will make a lot of SAA's "super-efficient" managers very nervous.

[Propellerpilot]

About a year and a few months ago there was big talk in German media of Lufthansa stocking up SAA shares big style - this is what they did with Swiss Air, which is now just called "Swiss". They were also interested in AItalia at some stage - probably to expand their Cargo fleet with MD11s but dropped that idea as well. Something must of scared them off SAA last minute (sharp rise in oil prices and fear of political instability), but if Goverment decides to sell shares and influence and get rid of the sick patient, Lufthansa might return and pull strings - after all they are StarAlliance Partners already and always on the lookout to buy ailing competitors to secure market shares against KLM/Airfrance.
Anyone know more ? Takeovers can happen very quickly before anyone even knows, when the time is right... and I believe then the heads in the beancounter department will roll if they can not produce expected results. Might be a good thing for SAA.

[unstable load]

Setron,

We all pay for:
-excellent roads and superior traffic facilities throughout the country
-speedy and friendly service delivery from government departments
-an oversupply of well trained and dedicated law-enforcement personel
-a super stable currency
and a trademarket that is the envy of the world

What planet are you talking about?:eek: I must have been abducted by aliens, :(cos the planet I'm on has none of the above.:=

Then I read the rest of your post...

One day you must tell me what the colour of the sky is in your world...

and it seems we may be on the same page after all!:p

[Avi8tor]

I (and I believe most of the pilot group) would welcome the day of complete privatizasion with open arms.Then we are all on the same page. All I have ever called for.

[evanb]

Unlike Swiss, SAA is not a publicly traded company - thus you cannot buy up shares in it. Any sales of shares would have to go through a public tender process and be ratified by Parliament so I doubt the Germans have been buying shares! Nothing scared them off since the government have no intention, much to my dismay, of getting rid of any of SAA!

[Propellerpilot]

Thanks Evanb for explaining I did not remember, was just something in the back of my head. Then all it was back then, is that Lufthansa voiced interest but had no options for the reasons you explained - that is probably why it did not happen :O Looks like they want to get their hands on pretty much anything they can get for a good price.

[WorldGuy]

"We can only dream about an Airline run by pilots!! This will make a lot of SAA's "super-efficient" managers very nervous."

Unfortunately this is not the answer. Historically, pilots have not shown to be effective airline executives.
Best of luck to all at SAA when privatization does come.
Cheers,
WG

[Sir Osis of the river]

Bubbly Drinker,

Well said. One of the more balanced posts on the topic. (Pitch and Moan will probably not agree, but what else do we expect?)

However, I would disagree that SAA could make a go of international Ops. They could not compete against the likes of the European Flag carriers who have larger rescources and operate, even B747-400's, efficiently. I would hazard a guess that they would forever more have to be subsidized, regardless of what they do. (Dig at management here, not the pilots).

I agree that other operators could cover the domestic scene, and no doubt with some prudent expansion, could eventually even opperate successfully on the international routes, presently operated by The Kempton Park Flying Club.

Such expansion would no doubt provide all the present pilots at SAA with gainfull employment, however probably at more market related salaries. (OOPS, thats not what they want.)

[flyguysa]

After following this post, I'll give my 2 cents worth. SAA, like SAX, Eskom, Telkom, etc, is a parastatal, which means it's an employment generating machine for the government, so any privitisation is not going to happen soon, besides Airbus pays handsome "bribes" to the officials who are responsible for fleet acquisitions. A good book to read is Jetlag, by Dennis Beckett to get a good perspective on SAA's history post 1994.

Pilots running an Airline.... I didn't learn how to fly because I wanted to sit behind a desk... There are people who are well qualified to run an Airline out there, our government just has to put a stop to nepotism and enriching themselves and their friends and things would get better. I guess that's like asking for the crime rate in SA to drop by 90%.

I don't work for SAA, there are days where I think about applying to SAA, but sitting for 13 years in the right hand seat to get command on an A319 makes me think twice.

I have a lot of friends at SAA and I don't think their egos are any bigger than most pilots out there, me included. Is the ego not part of the passion we have for what we do? Yes there are extremes, as someone once said to me "We are all nice people, some just hide it better than others". As for calling the Pilot in Command Captain, I can see the logic behind it, especially when working with some Cabin Crew who need to reminded there is an authority gradient that has to be adhered to. The salaries they earn are huge, I wouldn't say no to it, it's a testament to SAAPA and lets convert their salary into US Dollars and compare it to other International Airlines, are they that far off Industry Standard?

Whether you fly a C150 for R180 an hour or a 747-400 for R100 000 a month it beats working for a living.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

As long as the Government dictates how SAA should be run and who should run it they must be prepared to pay for their lack of wisdom.

It won't be govt paying. Governments on the whole are not wealth generating entities. They tend to be nett spenders of wealth. Once again the taxpayer will be on the hook to prop up the twitching cadaver. Among those taxpayers are Spoories' competition who are forced to run a tight ship to stay afloat so they can fund an airline who would like to see them go under.

[Doodlebug2]

Bubbly Lover and Sir Osis,

One should refrain from attacking the individual or personality, but if that is by the wayside, I would like to offer my tuppence worth. The pilots flying under the SAA banner are some of the finest aviators I have come across. Their professionalism and dedication to the task at hand is pretty awesome. I have had the priveledge of flying with airforce jocks and civvy jocks (more airforce, more longer), probably an experience that neither of you have had. If you have, then my apologies are tendered, but the three of us should then sort this out over some beverages. I could say that the domestic scene should be left to the SAA guys, but I won't.. (I'll only "think"it :E).

The airforce guys don't know it all, neither do the civvy guys, neither do the SAA guys, nor the Comair, 1time, or Anglo guys. I have made a habit of learning from each and applying that to my "style". If its good-keep, if its not- discard. To talk about arrogance, well, maybe you should take some time out and get to know some of "those (real) SAA guys", you may be quite surprised to find they are just normal people doing the best they can. I personally don't know of many (including senior training captains)that aren't open to discussion or new ideas. And there is no "Captain", "Sir" BS, only that acquired by respect for the individual.... (if formally required at all).

Ernest K. Gann wrote a wonderfil book, "Fate is the Hunter". Do yourselves a favour and read it every couple of years (over your favourite tipple by the river). It gives one a reality check like nothing else. Adios amigos.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Tell me this question please.
Why do you fly SAA to Europe?
Okey, Munich is handy but cabin crew are terrible -most important safety but service also. Ticket prices are not cheap, food is sometime uneatable coming south/north, not so bad north/south. Terminal 1 LHR is revolting, admit better than T111.
So why did I fly?
Because on last four flights aircraft was almost empty so had 3/4 seats myself.
Keep up good work. My favourite private airline company is SAA. Please do not change one bit.
Must tell you though, pilots are top gun, think so too.

[Sir Osis of the river]

D-Bug2,

Well said. A good post. (BTW, your apology is accepted.)

My post however did not malign any of the SAA drivers that I regularly have a tipple or two with, (Alas, no river but a dam wil do). I realize that they are just the victims here and are forced to accept the salaries given to them.

Unfortunately, if the airline was privatised, those same salaries would evaporate, as might their jobs. That is the point. It is not sustainable in the present economic climate. Their management has to come to terms with this, as do their unions. Nuff said.

(PS, I do have a first edition copy of Fate is the Hunter and it is, in my humble opinion, the greatest book ever written on the subject of aviation.

[The Actuator]

Suitcaseman - wouldn't it be nice if you posted your credentials here so we could judge you - you must be a pleasure to fly with.

1. You will find on the SAA A340's (three different models) that there is a vast variance in the levels of PA even on aircraft with sequential serial numbers. Getting your pitch across is not as straight forward as you might like to think.

2. Given the manner in which the airline is run - I am still amazed by how professionally the majority of my colleagues conduct their PA announcements. Just what are you going to say that is going to impress the guy who has been ridden roughshod from booking to boarding?

3. PA is a personal issue - many a time I have thought the plethora of announcements made by the cabin crew in delightful language and by pre recording are just too many - nobody pays attention especially if they cannot hear or if it is too loud. Who cares if you cannot smoke in the terminal and why is it the airlines problem? - you get my drift too much useless info!

4. What exactly would you have liked to have heard? The ETA? - on the screen, the speed/altitude/routing? - on the screen. Are you sure that what you wanted to hear would be as interesting to the other couple of hundred people around you?

5. Are we to assume you were wide awake monitoring the whole flight to notice the seat belt signs the entire time?

6. The cabin service I find has a marked lack of consistency - in my experience it is determinded directly by the attitude of the senior cabin attendant. If that person is lazy, incompetent, rude or unwilling so the service will be. It is easy to identify these people - but prey tell how does one prove any of the above in our airline with it's penchant for cronyism and then how does one get rid of them in our society with it's labour law?
I am sure for each time you have experienced this level of "service" I could find some one who has enjoyed the flight.

7. As for your comment about the landing - again an insight into what you fly might be important here - but I jumpseat a lot and often I find myself second guessing the landing from 3a, 43c or where ever, but I would never be so bold as to assume I had the full picture from my position of comfort outside the kitchen as it were. A hard firm landing on the markers beats a soft smooth transition half way down the park for me every time. Furthermore if you have ever landed the A340 you would know that pulling off a smooth landing on the markers is damn nigh impossible given that the centre gear will never touch where the main wheels touch - so you are bound to have two thuds - the second very nearly always more harsh than the first. Having said that it does happen on occassion and I must say in over four years on the bus I have only experienced one landing that I would call a controlled crash - that was my first in a 600 with a 23 knot crosswind at Frankfurt - and I also did not know what to say!! Afterward I thought I should have said something but I was under training and just keeping quiet seemed the best thing to do! I should have said "even Tiger hits it in the rough on ocassion" - some how I suspect even that would not amuse you!

Finally - in my personal operation I try to say very little on the PA. (I was once chastisd by a passenger for saying too much while they were trying to sleep between CT and Durban on and then again a few weeks later for not saying anything between Antigua and New York). I find keeping the seat belts on as much as possible covers me in the event of some CAT and from personal experience know that very few passengers obey the signs anyway, especially if nature calls - so where is the harm?

I take it you got there safely but based on your many vociferous anti SAA posts I can't help but wonder if your outlook on life is not determining how you experience it? Of course you are probably going to say none of the above is valid because you were in a 747.:suspect:

Never, drop the aeroplane while you are trying to fly the PA. Tailwinds.

[The Actuator]

Flight Level 460 and climbing!!

[CJ750]

:confused:Actuator

Are the SAA planes able or serviceable to get to FL460 with the technicians they have maintaining the aircraft or are the Chinese good

[The Actuator]

Based on his response - FL460 refers to the height at which that post went over his head.

[Propellerpilot]

Although all a bit off topic, I'm with suitcaseman on this one.

Firstly, I just find it good professional and good mannered if the flightdeck makes an anouncement from time to time, especially during daytime flights - it is comforting for the passengers and does a lot for customer loyalty. Even if it is not everybody on board, at least a larger percentage like to know some technical details about the flight - as an example I was once on a flight, where the captain mentioned our actual take off weight on a 747 and how much fuel we would use for the flight and what weather was to be expected and the other usual stuff. It brings flying closer to the people, that do not understand anything about it and increases their trust and belief, that they are in good hands and that makes people feel comfortable. Then he mentioned major landmarks and cities during the flight from time to time - all in all however he probably not even spent more than 4 minutes of total talking during the 10 hour flight but conveyed a lot of interesting things. Showing an open approachable personality and enthusiasm for your job sparks positiv reaction on people psychologically and it even makes that flight memorable, just because you did something different than everybody else - like a pinch of salt in right amounts.

Secondly, I have never had a real bad landing in an Airbus A340 ever - some were smoother than others, but nothing to write home about either way. Best one was actually a Turkish Airlines Copilot doing his first landing ever in the real aircraft... ;-)

Now slightly back to the topic - SAA probably does very little if anything at all and Actuator seems to be part of that boring agenda now, keeping his mouth shut because one daunting passenger opened his... ag shame man!

[I.R.PIRATE]

The other problem lies with the glorified shoppers onboard who are supposed to serve you.

Leave the seatbelt light on, and they won't allow you get out of your seat to get to the toilet. Explain to them that there has been no turbulence for over an hour, and you get told you are undermining their AUTHORITY and are being difficult - regardless of the fact that I might be dribbling in my pants already.

You cant mention anything to these numb-skulled excuses for cabin attendants, or get seen as being uncooperative and best of all racist - yes - I am a racist because I dont want to piss myself in my seat. Racist too for asking them to turn down the bleeding heat slightly, and racist for sure, for asking the herd of overweight big-5 imitators to keep it down in the galley at 3am - and probably spoiled their imminent orgy...so yes...:ugh::ugh:

[ALPHA FLOOR]

This thread has turned into drivel and blah blah blah................

[millertime]

agreed alpha floor