Which Aircraft Can Take Off Without Flaps?

[Seat62K]

The Spanair thread has raised interesting questions in relation to passengers' awareness of problems and whether they should inform the crew when they think something is wrong. One contributor, "sevenstrokeroll", says that some 'planes do not use flaps for take off.
I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering which particular aircraft are cabable of taking off safely without flaps.
If this is not the appropriate place, moderators please move this post.
If the question has been posed (and answered) elsewhere on PPRnNe I'd be grateful to know where.
Many thanks.

[Thridle Op Des]

Not a daft question, just before I crossed over to the 'Dark Side' and left rotary for fixed wing, (and with a freshly issued CPL/A in my flight bag) I was a passenger with LH from LHR to FRA in a A310 or A300. I was sitting abeam the trailing edge of the right wing. As we taxied out, I realised with growing alarm that there were no trailing edge flaps being deployed and I was unable to see the slats. I actually quickly undid my seat belt and stood up to see if the left hand flaps were out, which they wern't. I then spent an agonising time considering whether to jump up and down waving my arms like a stung turkey screaming 'stop the take-off, stop the take-off' but didn't. I assumed with a great deal of trepidation that the LH were doing the right thing and the Airbus was quite happy getting airborne in this configuration. However until the thing flew I kept having recollections of the Dryden Ontario icing accident going through my mind: 'The guy who didn't speak up'. It's amazing how we are so reluctant to embarrass ourselves.

A suggestion from a once frightened passenger to all those pilots of aeroplanes which don't need flaps for take-off, please tell us in the welcoming PA, you will have less deaths from incipient heart attacks.

[Capt Claret]

I've not flown any Fokkers but am led to believe that Flap 0 us not unknown on the F28/F70/F100. And no LEDs either!

[sthaussiepilot]

I have seen a Baron58 do it, ate the runway more than it should, but that was certianly interesting...

[airmanbg]

Actually they take off with Flaps 0 most of the time. :ok:

[sthaussiepilot]

Must have been the pilot....

I usually use them on take off, well I was told to anyway...

[planecrazi]

I don't recall any performance figures for a Beech Baron using Flaps for take-off.

B1900 We used the first bit of flap for take-off, (I think 15), further avoidance of tailstrike, lower speeds for lift off, short ground run, if I remember, in accordance with the flap 15 performance POH.

[sthaussiepilot]

Strange:confused:

Oh Well,,,

[Jinkster]

In the B733 we use Flap 5 most of the time, very rarely Flap 15 or Flap 1, and if we press the TOGA Buttons (to set takeoff thrust) and if the throttle was to advance forward without flaps, we get a aural warning!!!

[inducedrag]

On airbus A310 we can do Slats 15 zero flaps takeoff

[Bullethead]

Concorde did it for years!

[Flight Detent]

Good one Bullethead.....so did the Vulcan bomber...and so do the Mirage fighters...I wonder what's common between all those?

Hey Jinkster, you know, that may also happen during takeoff without using the autothrottle, you might try it some time!

I'm gettin' to old for this....I'll get my coat...:ooh:

[Jinkster]

Hi FD,

Yes it certainly does! Thats how we test it in the mornings!!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

The BE35 takes off quite nicely with Flaps 0!

Dr :8

[ExSp33db1rd]

My single seat Druine Turbulent powered by a 40 yr. old 1200 cc Beetle engine doesn't even have flaps. Mind you, it has fixed 'slots' which keep the wing pretty well controllable and gives a very mild stall - this was designed 60 years ago. They knew a thing or to then. :ok:

[pjac]

The F27 did it for a better 2nd segment performance.

[Chesty Morgan]

All of them...if the tarmac is long enough:}

[Captain Capstan]

The Boeing 767-200 uses leading edge slats and no trailing edge flaps with flap 1 selected . Used to use it regularly out of Singapore.

[G-ALAN]

I discovered recently, on a flight from GLA - AMS, the F-70 can perform a flapless T/O. I was sitting just behind the trailing edge of the wing, it was a very long 5 min taxy from the stand to runway :uhoh: I thought about calling the F/A and quietly expressing my concerns but decided not to. I figured if the F-70 is anything like the 737 then the pilots would get an earful as soon as they advance the throttles on T/O without flaps. We departed without flaps and the we seemed to get airborne pretty quickly.

[rogerg]

I dont think the deltas have flaps? Considering their position they would act like elevators, wouldnt they?

[Brian Abraham]

Concorde did it for years!
No it didn't. Well not in the manner that's being talked about exactly. On take off and landing the C of G was placed further back than need by means of the fuel trim tanks. This meant the elevons had to put in a nose down pitch moment to counter the rear ward weight shift and in so doing increasing the camber of the wing. Hey presto, you've got flaps without having flaps.

The use of canards on delta wings introduces a destabilising moment which is like wise countered by nose down elevon so once again giving a flap effect.

[filejw]

Used to do a flaps zero slats extend t/o in a DC9...

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Bit more common - Citation 500 & 550 (1's and 2's) all do flapless takeoffs

[broadreach]

Think Chesty Morgan has it. "If there's sufficient tarmac".

And, of course, if tyres don't blow in the interim and liftoff isn't followed by what would be a normal with-flaps aoa.

[JanetFlight]

AB3, AB4 and AB6 did it and still do it lots of time...only the LE are used:)

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/0/8/2/0999280.jpg

Cheers;)

[EMB170]

Incredible India !

[criticalmass]

Saab 340 seem to get off the ground just fine with 0 flap takeoff.

[forget]

The Spanair thread has raised interesting questions in relation to passengers' awareness of problems and whether they should inform the crew when they think something is wrong.

Just as well these worriers aren't being dragged around in Britannias. The aircraft, that is. :hmm:

[moggiee]

All of them...if the tarmac is long enough:}
Damn -you beat me to it.

I dont think the deltas have flaps? Considering their position they would act like elevators, wouldnt they?
some have "flaperons" - ailerons that droop (in a controlled fashion!) to double up as flaps.

[transducer]

The Dash-8-300 has a supplement that allows a flap zero take-off. The aircraft itself has a small modification (a switch) that tells the take-off configuration warning that a flap zero take-off is to be undertaken, part of the after start checklist. This selection resets itself automatically with weight off wheels. Like the F-27 it improves second segment for hot and high conditions. The runway obviously has to be pretty long as the rotate speeds are in the region of 140KIAS. Pretty fast for a Dash-8!

[bzhpj]

Now retired, I recall OCCASIONALLY using a 0° flap setting for take-off in turboprops, notably NAMCO YS11A and Saab 340 types.

ONLY when using 3000 metre runways with no obstacles and at very light take-off weights.

Neither of these aircraft were equipped with a T/O configuration alarm.

[ajamieson]

As mentioned earlier, F100 often zero flaps at take-off.

When bmi still flew the F100s I once heard at LHR a BA crew holding short of the departure runway making a radio call to a Midland crew lining up in front of them "just to advise that [their] flaps were not set". The (very polite) response from the F100 was that the flaps were set correctly!

[transducer]

The Dash-8-300 uses the flap zero take off to increase its RTOW with hot and high conditions. The flap 5 take off actually reduces the RTOW quite significantly. The runway we normally use for a flap zero take off is over 4000m long at 5500' amsl and is climb/obstacle limited and not runway limited. Its the second segment we need to perform in to carry the extra weight.

[parabellum]

I had a good friend in AUH, (average temperature above 30C), who flew the BN2 and always took off from AUH with no flap selected, I and another younger pilot asked him about this and he explained he had done all the sums, (he had them written down), and since the runway was so long it was the sensible thing to do as it stood him in much better stead were he to lose an engine. Friend and I followed suit but thank God we never lost an engine. Our mentor was an ex RAF wartime Beaufighter pilot and we took what he said very seriously.

[Lookforshooter]

Might be a good idea to mention the riduculous increase in runway length when doing a no flap take off in most planes...and some should question why they are doing a no flap take off....Not something I would admit to in most transport category aircraft...

[john_tullamarine]

Not something I would admit to in most transport category aircraft

If the configuration is declared in the AFM then it is available for use in appropriate circumstances. There is absolutely nothing untoward in using a certification configuration for takeoff. There may, of course, be maintenance consequences in the medium term eg increased wear patterns but that is a quite different commercial consideration.

Often the only way to get max weight is to go minimum flap (which may, or may not, be nil flap) .. for most aircraft with which I have had any experience, the maximum certification weight can only be achieved with minimum AFM flap takeoffs as the WAT limits cut in for larger flap settings. In general it is a case that you choose larger flap settings for short runways with benign obstacles, mid range flap for medium runways and/or modest obstacles, and minimum flap for longer runway with significant obstacles. All a case of horses for courses .. so long as all the various limitations are satisfied for any given takeoff with a particular configuration.

[FS-chick]

All B737-NG's can do flaps one takeoffs (Slats only)

[K.Whyjelly]

Might be a good idea to mention the riduculous increase in runway length when doing a no flap take off in most planes...and some should question why they are doing a no flap take off...

As already stated earlier, the Fokker 100/70 regularly departed with zero flap and no slats 'cos it didn't have any LE devices. When performance limited then a Flap 8 or Flap 15 departure would be flown. Don't have any performance data to hand but "the ridiculous increase in runway length when doing a no flap take off" was never an issue

[Yorky Towers]

DC3 No problem...And without Slats!:ok:

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

If you try to take off in a Avro RJ or BAe 146 without at least Flap 18 set, the nose will come up and the tail will go down.

But fly, it wont- so don't!:eek:

[bad_attitude]

any a/c will take off without flaps ... while training we normally never used flaps, except maybe if we wanted to do a short/soft field t/o ...

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Bad

Really?
So what would be Vr in say, a flapless Starfighter?

:ooh:

[67chargerguy]

A few years ago, one of our FAs, who has been studying to be a pilot, noticed an aileron full up during taxi-out while looking out a cabin window (she was a ticketed passenger riding another airline, in an MD-80 series airplane), and mentioned it to the cabin crew. The aircraft stopped, one of the pilots came back and had a look for himself. They went back to the gate. Who knows what may have happened had they gone airborne with it?

[777fly]

All of these posts only serve to emphasis that flapless takeoffs are possible. It is the failure to select SLATS ( or equivalent), for takeoff, that is the killer.

[BelArgUSA]

Someone asked the speed for a F-104 flaps up approach/landing...?
Ref.: NATO Dash-1 Manual (F-104G - J79-GE-17)
High key is 280 KIAS, low key is 240 KIAS...
Flaps are up, and boundary layer control INOP...
xxx
By the way, ANY airplane could takeoff FLAPS UP...
Provided plenty of runway (shall we say 20,000 ft long, or about...)
And tyres capable of very high speeds, like 220+ knots...
xxx
Radials and white walls optional for the Michelins...
:8
Happy contrails

[Lookforshooter]

John, Which planes can you think of where it was preferable and made sense (safety) per AFM to do a no flap take off? If you could reference those, I would like to look them up...

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Belargusa

It was me that asked about the 104.

But I asked what Vr would be flapless.

Obviously the thing will land flapless- any a/c could lose flap function airborne.

But could it take off like that- if you lengthened the Runway at Luke ,say.:ok:

[The Real Slim Shady]

Lookforshooter

The Fokker 100 and 70 routinely do flapless take offs and the HS125 does too I believe. You could start with them.

[Doodlebug]

So will the Global Express, if fitted with the appropriate tires. With slats extended, that is. Will need approximately 1700 foot more runway, depending on conditions, obviously. Not approved yet in JAA-land, but coming, I'm told.

[Lookforshooter]

I am curious when I am going to be told which transport category aircraft takes off 0 Flaps, and it's considered the safest condition to do so..Oh...well...probably doesn't matter...if the airlines aren't burning up all available runway with zero flap takeoffs, then they are with Flex/reduced thrust...

[hollywood285]

any light aircraft will do no flap takeoff if the runway is long enough, the be55 is clean take off most of the time

[CecilRooseveltHooks]

A few years ago, one of our FAs, who has been studying to be a pilot, noticed an aileron full up during taxi-out while looking out a cabin window (she was a ticketed passenger riding another airline, in an MD-80 series airplane), and mentioned it to the cabin crew. The aircraft stopped, one of the pilots came back and had a look for himself. They went back to the gate. Who knows what may have happened had they gone airborne with it?

Is this a trick question? They can't get airborne with it as during the takeoff run the airflow will allow the control tab to take effect....

d'oh!

[low n' slow]

Lookforshooter:
Although the Saab 340 manual doesn't say anything about it, a flap 0 departure is the preferred method. A slightly longer take off roll, but a significantly better second segment climb and also it is significantly easier to handle the plane single engine with the flaps up.

15 is used for short runways and tailwind departures. Otherwise allways 0 flap.

/LnS

[john_tullamarine]

I am curious when I am going to be told which transport category aircraft takes off 0 Flaps, and it's considered the safest condition to do so

Not a question of "safest condition". The AFM provides the boundary conditions and the operator/crew then determine which is the most appropriate configuration for takeoff on a given occasion. Considerations of safety will be a part of this determination.

[fokkerjet]

Fokker 70 numbers for a STD day @ 88,000 lbs:

Zero Flap - V1/Vr/V2/take-off distance = 133/136/142/5568
8 Flap - V1/Vr/V2/take-off distance = 126/129/136/5214

[Lookforshooter]

Thanks for the posts...I was curious if it made sense on any of the bigger AC to actualy take off 0 flaps...given increased runway lengths...I certainly have selected LESS flaps to make second segment, always nice to have the choice...

[Chris Scott]

Glad Yorky Towers (not surprisingly, from Coventry) finally mentioned the Gooney Bird, saving me the trouble.

But, just for the record, we used also to do it in the Dart-Herald on hot days, provided the runway was long enough; always with water-methanol injection for extra power. Like the F27 and others, it's to enable a decent RTOW when the second-segment climb gradient (WAT) would otherwise be a problem. It gave us a better payload out of Southampton, but not out of Guernsey or Jersey (too short).

Lookforshooter, perhaps you are not old enough to remember large piston aeroplanes that got airborne in half the runway length; then struggled to clear a 100-foot hill one mile beyond the airfield boundary?

The prototype piston (Leonides) Herald was lost at Khartoum, because it failed to climb through an inversion layer. Does anyone know whether it was using flap for take-off?