VNAV approach JFK 13L

[SRS]

Would appreciate any feedback on flying a VNAV approach into JFK R/W 13L. The only chart (Jepp) I can get hold of is the VOR or GPS Rwy 13L/R chart. The problem with that is the approach ends at the MAP (DMYHL) at a minimum of 800 feet. I heard that there are some operaters that have VNAV ( LNAV/VNAV) approach charts that fly the turn to about a 300 foot final, and over threshold at about 50 ft. The same as following the LDIN. Of course one must be visual and flying manually but the guidance should promotes safety.

Thanks

[wiggy]

We (747 operator) have a "visual overlay procedure" that allows us to use LNAV to fly the final turn onto 13L, rolling out at just above 300' final. It's not VNAV so use V/S as the vertical mode. We must be visual by 800' but the autopilot can be used down to a minimum disconnect of 360' agl.

I've done it several times since it was introduced and it works very well.

[Bullethead]

G'day SRS,

I haven't been there for a while but try this if your FMC will do it,

For RW13L build a waypoint by entering 'IRTH315/CRI041' in the LEGS page and that should generate a waypoint at the intersection of the extended centreline of 13L and the 041 radial out of CRI.

For RW13R try this 'IMOH315/CRI041' and you should get a similar intersection.

Join the legs up and you should have something to work with. The intersection has to be generated using two navaids it won't work if yoy try using two waypoints.

In each case look at the distance from the intersection point to the runway and enter a suitable 'SPD/ALT' (300ft/ml) and you should get a LNAV track and a useable VNAV path.

The only problem I can see is the 13L approach turns inside your generated waypoint but the 13R approach should work OK.

I'd be interested to see how this works.

Of course you could bribe wiggy for his overlay plates! :ok:

Regards,
BH.

[Fluke]

Emirates who now use LIDO documents have a RNAV approach to RWY 13L. It is charted as a special procedure requiring airport authorisation and regulatory approval. We fly it in the sim but as far as I know we have not been approved to fly it into JFK.
It works very well, requires a RNP of 0.3 or less and is flown with the A/P coupled down to a DH of 520 feet with the temperature between -7(18f) and 49(121f).
It is a curved approach with the IF at ASALT, FAF at ZADUD 3000' with a constant 3 degree path to the displaced threshold.

Emirates has a couple of these types of approaches now, I think SANNA (Yemen) and Seychelles are similar. The trick to flying them in the SIM anyway is to be ready to engage LNAV with a missed approach otherwise you can quickly find yourself out of the 0.3 RNP ( req for the missed app segment as well).

It is definitely easier and safer, ( less satisfying perhaps) but getting ATC to clear you for these approaches can be difficult as it can conflict with the standard VOR or circling proceedure that most aircraft are equipped to fly.

Happy landings

[TopBunk]

Of course you could bribe wiggy for his overlay plates!

The plate wouldn't/deosn't tell you more than the VOR13L procedure. What is the BIG benefit is the FMC procedure that the autopilot can use for the Lnav tracking and the pilot can use the Vertical deviation bar for 'Glideslope' tracking via V/S.

It is loaded in the FMC as an RNAV13L procedure, but as Wiggy says, is a 'Visual Overlay' procedure. Fantastic help to flying the Canarsie approach esp in bad weather:D

[Diesel8]

A RNAV (RNP) Rwy 13 procedure does exist at JFK which does a beatiful approach to a 519 ft MDA.

The procedure is charted, at least I have it, and it was used for a while in VMC conditions, however, it is not currently approved for use, VMC or IMC. Wish I knew what the holdup was, but I do not.

In the bus, to get vertical guidance, one can select the rwy then select direct to rwy, which will show the "chinese G/S" or "donut". Works pretty well. Of course, it will take out the missed approach, however, that brings up the question of what missed approach would be, if given the visual :)

However, back to your point, currently, 800ft is the decison height on the VOR 13 approach, one must proceed visually from there, VASI has been provided for your convenience :}

[misd-agin]

Watching guys fly the VOR 13L brings about endless amusement to the departing traffic lined up on taxiways P or Q. Nothing like looking at the TCAS and wondering what folks are doing at 400-600' when the minimums are 800' and they're 3.8 miles from the runway? :eek:

Trust me, it's much easier if you cross CRI at 1500', stay pretty clean, gradually configure, and start a continous descent from approx. 1200' AGL.

Couple of weeks ago we're watching a 747 doing the 1200-1300' level, clean longer than usual, approach - "look, one of the foreigners has figured it out." Nice job, rolling out on final with continous descent....Kalitta Air 747. "Never mind, it's a U.S. carrier."

Last time I flew the VOR 13L in IFR conditions was 8-10 yrs ago, and I'm based there.

[TopBunk]

Trust me, it's much easier if you cross CRI at 1500', stay pretty clean, gradually configure, and start a continous descent from approx. 1200' AGL.

Trust me, it is certainly NOT much easier in a 747 that way!

[2 cents]

"Watching guys fly the VOR 13L brings about endless amusement to the departing traffic lined up on taxiways P or Q."

misd-agin - What do you fly? A 320, or an RJ? Trust me, it's a tad different in a heavy jet. Maybe one day you'll get to find out.

Speaking of amusment, you should see some of the "US carriers" overseas, the far east in particular. Sometimes they just don't have a clue...

[SRS]

Thanks for all the feedback. As you say JFK hardly ever use the VOR 13L/R in poor weather and presently most of us maintain 1500' over Canarsie until intercepting the 3 degree path. That should have us cross the MAP at 1220'. A workable LNAV/VNAV database would be a good reference even though it is a visual approach from the MAP. Could I trouble someone from Emirates to send me a chart? Much appreciated :)

[bArt2]

Why are you making things so complicated?

I uploaded this approach here(pdf): http://www.ebzw.be/KJFK-VOR13.pdf

If you look in the profile view you will see that the distance from the MAP to THR is 2.6Nm for 13R and 3.6 for 13L

MDA/MDH = 800/787

So for 13L you should descend with 787/3.6=218 ft/Nm, that is 2.2º (1º=100 ft/Nm)
Your rate of descend should be groundspeed in Nm/min times Ft/Nm. Lets so your GS is 120 KTS so 2 Nm/min, therefore your VVI should read 436 Ft/min.
If you insist on a 3º final you should stay level for 1Nm (30 sec in this example) or initially descend at 300 ft/min for example to intercept the 3º glide


13R: 787/2.6=303 ft/Nm (3º)
303x2=606 ft/min

Bart

[RISK AVERSE]

You shouldnt really build waypoints after the Final Approach Fix if you intend using LNAV/VNAV as it corrupts (or could corrupt) the profile. Thats whats in the Boeing FCTM for 737ng.

just my 2penith

RA

[ACMS]

Here is a basic simple tip for you all. ( most probably know already )

As you fly past CRI for 13L be prepared to be switched to 13R at the last second. If you stay high to follow 3 deg slope for the left you will be too high for the right.

It has happened a few times to us in the CX 773W. It's either accept 13R or go-around.

Cheers

ACMS

[ACMS]

Here is part of our KJFK briefing on 13L arrivals:

Arrival Runway Details

A. Runway 13L/13R Canarsie VOR/Lead In Approach

When Kennedy weather permits, (ceiling 800 FT and visibility 2.5 statute miles) the Canarsie approach to runways 13L and R permit simultaneous approaches to these two noise preferred runways.

During peak arrival periods, aircraft spacing through CRI may be as close as 3NM. Handover to Kennedy tower will occur inbound to CRI, at this stage the landing runway will be advised. CRI is crossed at 1,500 FT and the profile to touchdown is about 3°. Advise Kennedy approach if hand off to tower has not been received by CRI. (An Audio Visual presentation is available for the CRI approaches in the route-briefing package.)

NOTE: If flying the GPS overlay of this approach the aircraft computed profile will cross the MAP well above the MDA. This is due to the length of the approach and the systems design to fly a 3 degree profile. Refer to the notes on the port page.



Note: (31/05/07)

As a result of feedback on the use of this approach KJFK has designed and will be shortly implementing an RNAV/RNP approach for runways 13L/R which is designed to allow crews to maintain flight director guidance in the final and visual segment of the approach.



Arrivals for runways 13L/R can expect radar vectors from the Kingston Arrival which will bring you almost overhead or a little to the SW of the airport on a heading roughly SE. The vectoring from director will normally be 3 right hand turns and subsequent descents and speed control where you will eventually be cleared normally to ASALT at 250kts/3000ft. Crews will then expect to be handed off to tower for the approach, expect a tower specified speed on the approach.



B. Runway 13L

Expect radar vectors to a right-base. Strong tailwinds may be present on the initial approach, configure early to comply with speed control requirements.

Sequenced flashing lead-in lights commence 1.7 NM beyond CRI and lead the aircraft to runway 13L. On reaching the MAPt (CRI radial 041 DME 2.6), the lead in lights will be directly below the aircraft. Do not step outside of these lights, as this would constitute a noise violation.

At MAPt and 800 FT, runway 13L displaced threshold is 4 NM distant, the resulting profile is significantly flatter than 3°, as a result aircraft have a tendency to be low on the approach to 13L. If the visibility is good this can easily be resolved by delaying the descent from 1,500FT for 2 minutes, or descending at 1/200 ft/minute, so that the final approach angle is more realistic. In IMC 800FT by MAR is very low, and although the strobes are easy to see – the threshold is not.



The lead-in lights track arrivals around the shoreline of Jamaica Bay, the Shore Park Highway will be visible to the left of the approach path. Other visual features on this approach are the racetrack on the left and a ‘T’ shaped hotel about 1 NM on the extended centreline of 13L. Runway 13L is fitted with 2 bar VASI for visual guidance of the displaced threshold.

When the surface wind is from 170-230 expect low level turbulence because of power station cooling towers S.W. of the threshold. Exiting the runway at either 2A or runway 22R acceptable.

[SRS]

Thank you ACMS. That is the information I needed. I'll try to get the future RNAV data from JFK.

[ACMS]

No worries.

KJFK can be a lot of fun.

Just go with the flow and don't argue with the controllers!!

Expect: Late notifiction of delays and un-planned holding ( bad wx screws the whole NYC area up ), multiple runway changes, and high chance of a late missed approach!! So watch the guy in front and don't get too close.

All in a days work.

oh, don't speak slowly on the RT, they hate long slow readbacks..........