Flight Academy Blackpool

[pony2]

Hi
I have been looking for some hour building aroung the North West and rang Flight Academy at Blackpool.
They claim to be the cheapest, busiest, newest training facility, hmmmm!!!
I did some costings and this is what I have come up with
6 month upfront joining fee @ £110 pcm = £660
12 hours flying over 24 month (min) @ £70ph = £840
monthly Standing order of £110 x 24 = £2640
12 landings over 24 months@ £15per Landing = £180
This making a grande total of £4320 if I divide this by 12 my hourly charge is £360 per hour, I think not !!! nice try
I rang Westair at Blackpool and for 12 hours in their PA28 it came out at £1752, a discount was offered for the payment (on account).
Needless to say a saving of £2568 and no upfront deposits or standing orders!
Does any one know where I may get a PA28 or similar around the North West for a deal??
Pm me :=

[adverse-bump]

try the same maths,

100 hours in 2-3 months and its cheaper.

why would fly once a month
:ugh:

[EK4457]

Pony2, it has been said before and will be said again. Be very careful before you start throwing quite offensive accusations about. This is a very small industry and reputations good and bad travel far.

As for your 'costings', well youre either not very good with numbers or missed the point of the AGL scheme. I suspect both.

Firstly, the £660 up front is a deposit. You get it back. So take that out.

Secondly, you quite bizzarely included landing fees in one calculation and not the other. Take that out.

Last of all, if you only want to fly 12 hours every 24 months, why the hell did you bother getting your PPL? (assuming you have one)

This scheme was set up to cater to those who are either hour buliding towards their CPL or have a PPL and want to fly on a regular basis (not 0.5 hours per month like yourself). If you do the maths based on what the scheme was designed for, you will find an hourly rate which the US will find hard to compete with.

Costing example for someone flying 60 hours a year (a proper one):

12 months subscription at £110 per month: £1320
60 flying hours at £70 ph: £4200
Total: £5520.

Divide by 60 gives you £92 ph. Wet. For a new Archer III with dual G430. Or brand new G1000 C172.

Thats only for 5 hours per month. The more you fly, the cheaper it gets.

FAB and AGL are run by a very efficient and friendly bunch of people. The group members all have their heads screwed on. You probably wouldn't have fitted in anyway.

Ps: I am not employed by FAB or AGL. I am not even a member. Just sticking up for a good product.

EK

[Philpaz]

I have been looking for some hour building aroung the North West


You call 6 hours a year hour building?

I'm a group member and i fly a few times a week. From my point of view its cheap with good availability and a friendly atmosphere. Everything I want out of a flying school.

What a pointless thread :ugh:

[ChrisLKKB]

Anyone know of a similar deal in the south of England ? I don't need the hours but at that price it would be rude not to:p

[Philpaz]

Panshanger EGLG

Aircraft grouping limited.

C172R

[potkettleblack]

Is your deposit held in a separate trust account or will it be lost if the school goes t*ts up? If its not in a trust account why not? What is the deposit for anyway? I could understand keeping a bit of cash on account to stay in the black but what purpose does a deposit serve towards hour building? There are far to many schools using advance monies and deposits to pay the day to day running costs. Hence when the cash stops coming in the door things go pear shaped pretty quick.

I would say counting on "losing" your deposit is probably a wise move.

[ChrisLKKB]

Phil' : thanks.

PKB... "What is the deposit for anyway?" probably in case you bend the aircraft or rack up a load of landing fees, sounds reasonable to me.

[pony2]

Hi
The workings I had done above were the min required by the CAA for Licence validity.
I have spoke with Flight Academy Blackpool again and they say you need to fly at least every 6 weeks in order not to have to undertake a check ride, so I have reworked the above assuming 50 hours in 12 months.
Deposit 6 months £660
50 hours @ £70 = £3500
50 landings @ £15 = £750
12 months Standing Order = £1220
Totals £6130 or £123 per hour

Westair are offering their Warrior at £146 per hour including landing Fee
So £7300 but they are offering a discount of 10% so £6570, so £440 more, but no deposit of £660 and no standing order of £110 pcm and no time limit, with Flight Academy every month you go over another £110 needs finding !!!:{

[Philpaz]

At the end of the day its each to their own, if your going to do the hours FAB/AGL is cheap. If your only planning on doing enough to stay current then its not.
What I will say though is that as a member of the 4 seat group at AGL you have access to 2 Archers with twin GNS430 (a step up on a warrior) and 2 172' one of which is a G1000. All the aircraft are in excellent condition and you have (as an AGL member) access to the discounted rates at FAB which are VERY competitive.

Geez, its starting to sound like a sales pitch now......

To close, it suits me and many others very well but everyone is different and have differing requirements/needs. Its not a scam as previously stated, it just doesn't suit you.

Phil

P.S. To rent the PA28 direct without being a group member is 125+14.76 landing fee which is 139.76. No monthlys.

[MrHorgy]

I built some 98 hours with AGL on the C172R when it was at Barton, I even flew it as far as Spain (mmm.. VAT free fuel!)

I paid £110 a month for 6 months, but with a deposit of the same that I got back - in full. I then paid £60 an hour wet.

I did a few circuits, but mainly land aways. Don't factor in landing fees because you have to pay those whatever you fly, Westair, FAB, AGL or rent from Santa.

£60 x 98 = £5880 wet
+ £660 maintenance
-----
£6540.

If I rented with someone else, even at £110 an hour wet (which is very reasonable and probably too cheap for a new C172) i'd be looking at £10780. I make that a saving of (drum roll).....

£4240

Horgy

[Pontious]

Pony2
Check your PM's.

Cheers

Ponsh

:ok:

[maxdrypower]

I too have built over a hundred hours with agl and have been a member since day one . It is a fanstastic group with state of the art aircraft and facilities . If there is a scam there, its bloody well hidden. All i can say to the ill informed troll that started this post is get your facts staright before you post crap like yours , and take a copy of it with you if ever you do try and join agl . I for one would rather the group didnt have a member like you .

[charliegixxer]

your getting a right name for your self so grow up and enjoy your flying i am a meaber at AGL and i love it its great and the planes are new as you get in the uk for that money so stop bi*ching and start flying maybe you will make a pilot that way from charlie

[pony2]

I have been asking when Flight Academy are suppose to get their approvals, IR, CPL, FIC the owner keeps saying next week !!!! he has been saying this since September 2007.
Bumped into a poor guy who had prepaid £6000 in cash for the CPL, 12 months ago +, he said he kept ringing to speak to the owner who was always in meetings !!
Not got his money back and not done the training.
Maybe something else is going on or worse going down :{:{:{

[Thunderbirdone]

There is obviously some mis-information going on here. The only school at Blackpool who cannot issue the training they claim to be able to administer is flybpl.com owned by an individual who cannot resist advertising himself very verbally and also on his website for things he is not licensed to do.

Examples:-

2 week PPL:- Great if you have a lease with the airport which enables you to do training but he does not. His lease is for an air taxi operation for which he does not have an AOC!

Charter:- On the subject of charter, it seems like this individual continues to flout the law as regards illegal public transport. Obviously he is always a paying participant in these flights, just like the one he did yesterday in G-EEJE. By the way this charter operation claims it can service 2-200 people. How many can you fit in a PA28?? How many elephants can you fit in a mini!

4 Day IMC:- Nice thought if the instructor (RM) had an IMC rating in order that he could teach it himself. Last intelligence on that subject was that he hasn't got one because of the fact that NONE of the examiners based at Blackpool would do his test for him. Burn't some bridges!!!

Banner Towing:- Can't be completed by someone who doesn't own an aircraft capable of banner towing, the only other banner towing operation on the airport are well aware of his claims which may be referring to their operation but certainly cannot be provided by him.

Helicopter training:- Show us your helicopter! LOL

Commercial and multi training:- No F.T.O. talk about pot calling kettle sooty A**se! At least FAB do have their FTO status but flybpl definitely does not!!! How can RM be so hypoctricical as to spread such falsehoods about others whilst blatently advertising to be an FTO when he clearly IS NOT!

Most of the aircraft advertised on his website are owned by people who no longer want anything to do with him. Furthermore the claims made verbally by him of his associations with various companies and individuals all exist only in the mind of the man himself. Most of the people he has upset on the airport have also been grassed by him to the CAA. Unsuccesfully!

It seems RM that you should stop making false accusations and claims of your status, and begin trading fairly although your reputation in the industry obviously proves you are not capable of this.

Flight Academy, Aircraft Grouping and the like are all honest respectable companies who operate within the law and within the constraints of good business practice. This is why they had to get rid of the above named individual because his reputation prohibited their growth.

He is a banned company director and has proven many times in the past that he is a failure. Sour grapes now prevail and he insists on generating threads like this under strange and varied user names. Jealousy is not an attractive trait RM.

The word defacto CFI springs humorously to mind when talking about this individual and the misery he has caused with his false claims and dillusions of grandure.

FAB, AGL and SMS continue to trade reputably despite these ridiculous lies generated by one very bitter and jealous individual. Rob by name, Rob by nature!

[jono1978]

pony2,

It's clear that your bizarre campaign against AGL is not working! I too am a member, I am using the PA28's for hour building. The planes are very new compared to most training a/c in the UK, and kept in tip top order, the rates are very reasonable too. There is no scam. I used to hire an old tatty PA28 from another flying school in the Northwest, it cost me £126 per hour plus landings, it was so old it didn't have footbrakes and the trim wheel was on the roof!

You should really get your facts clear before making such claims. It seems since other posters have made things a little easier for you to understand, you have changed tactics and brought in a 3rd person to attack their CPL/IR training. They may well not be setup for CPL/IR yet, if that's the case then I find it hard to believe that anyone with any sense would hand over £6000 for a course that doesn't exist!

Grow up

[Day_Dreamer]

I too am a member and have been for a couple of very happy years.

The system works well, and if you can get a group together then there is scope for placing an aircraft where needed.

Many people have been in the AGL group who are now flying professionally.

If the usage is low for you 12 hrs in 2 years, then its not economic for you and is by no means a scam.

We need more schools with the ability to offer lower rate flying like we have here, and less idiots posting such rubbish on here.

[GIZZAJOB]

Interesting . I have been a member of AGL for almost as long as it has existed . So far it has done everything it has set out to do and nothing it claims will happen , hasnt .
There does seem to be one chap who keeps changing his screenie who has it in for FAB . All I can say is , count the number of aircraft , students , group members and other satisfied customers you have coming through your door , and then compare it to that of FAB/AGL . In fact where are your premises ???
FAB does have approval for CPL and the gentleman in question who allegedly paid his 6 grand , did so for hour building and not a CPL , during the course of this hour building he built up a 2 grand bill for unpaid fuel and landing fees which he now owes FAB .
Facts should be straight before putting fingers to keyboards .
Remember "Rather to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt"

[Helen49]

What a pathetic thread!!

Pony 2 should gallop off into the sunset and do a Shergar, that would please everybody!
Helen49

[AlexXeno]

I'm using FAB/AGL. Nothing but praise, very welcoming, good aircraft (compared to other schools), good instructors, good prices and the bar is great :)

[Andy_20]

Think when you do the sums correctly you'll find FAB a brilliant club. Im currently hour building with them in a AGL group and couldnt find flying anywhere cheaper!

Landing fees are a variable costs as they differ from different airfields so that shouldnt be part of your argument.
deposit is refundable, just give notice of leaving!

I compared FAB with all the clubs at Blackpool and FAB came up the best option for a real flyer hour building more than 12 hrs in 2 years!

Its an insult to the club for people to throw stupid accusations about without the full understanding!

Maybe an apology is in order....:ok:

[skiptoit]

This story about the guy who paid £6,000 over a year ago and hasn't had a refund worries me slightly. I paid FAB/AGL £6,500 in November 2007 on the understanding that they would have their approvals through by late spring 2008, in the mean time I would do my hours building with them. The approvals never came sadly, but no worries, I did my hours building and moved on to another school, no refund required as I had got the hours I needed and any further money was going to be for the actual training. I finished my training last year and am now an FO with a UK based Turboprop operator. If the guy who allegedly paid the £6,000 is in fact supposed to be me, then, well you've got it wrong. Admittedly I wasn't happy with the smoke and mirrors surrounding the much promised approvals, they never came through and I had to train elsewhere at an increased cost, but I did get the hours that I paid for.

FAB/AGL has some flaws, but they are not major and they are by no means scamming anyone. Least of all me!

My only real gripe lies with the fact that I have been emailing them since August to cancel my membership but they still haven't and I have some fuel that I paid for which was never credited to my account. Oh, and I haven't seen my £710 deposit back yet! Generally though, I was very happy with their service and these problems are to be expected of a new, growing company that is going through a lot of transition.

[heli_port]

Before i joined OAA i went to visit FAB and i was bitterly disappointed. After finally locating the front door i went in (i wish i haden't). I won't go into the details but in the 10 minutes i was there before getting thrown out of the door it looked and sounded like a complete mess! Instructors were complaining and i also was told they would definetly have their approvals by a certain date - they didn't!

Stway away IMO.

[baldwinm]

Nothings perfect but where else can you get well equipped, latest generation aircraft for the money?

I joined AGL a few months ago after a few years of group ownership - AGL even bought our aircraft from us and I got back the full value of my share. Now I don't have to worry about unexpected maintenance bills.

The facilities are the best at Blackpool and for this sort of organisation the best I've seen - ever.

I'm not an hours builder but as a hobby flyer it fits the bill. :)

[GIZZAJOB]

FAB have approvals for virtually everything now , anyone with any nouse in aviation should know that the CAA very rarely give deadlines . If FAB said they will be getting approvals soon you shouldnt be holding them to a specific date .
Heli hope you enjoy getting the same qualification for an extra 40 grand at OAA . Their marketing still very good then

[Hesam.Jet]

This organization is a joke, its a scam!

Basically, they quotted me a price before I decided to go and when I showed up, all of suddenly the prices had gone up. By the way; they charge you the same price for flying solo as flying dual. Their excuse is that the instructors still has to be there when you fly solo, well this is the case in every flight school around the world, but you do not see them charging the same price for solo as dual during the PPL faze. They are full of it, trust me....

Heard somebody also got screwed for the deposit that has to be payed as a member, I have also heard rumours from a source within the organization that the school is going bankrupt which is why that person decided not to work there anymore. I am not suprised, do yourselves a favour and keep your money. If you give them any money you may not see the lights of it ever again.

Be aware this organization is also blacklisted..

Hope this helps.

[crap pilot]

you do not see them charging the same price for solo as dual during the PPL faze.
Do you mean that they charge you the same for solo (still training for PPL) or they charge the same for solo hire (you already have your PPL)? These two are very different things. I know for a fact that the solo hire is cheaper than an instructional flight and can you show me another school that prices the solo instruction cheaper than flight with an instructor?

[Phil1980's]

This thread has just made me want to start up my training to finish my PPL there (10 hours to go) and exams etc....£92 per hour is better than the area I live in...so i am going to have a look at that place :)

I bet they throw in the headset use too unlike some usa JAA places

[Phil1980's]

Someone needs to change the title of this thread, because AGL Blackpool shows this bad remark at the top of google...

[EK4457]

Ok, here goes.

If a well regarded ppruner makes a comment critisising FAB and is willing to enter into senible discussion about their point of view, then fine. Take notice of what they say and use it to decide whether FAB is the fight FTO for you.

However, if a username with no previous posts randomly starts ripping into FAB with bizzare and vague stories, disregard it. It is a sad individual with a reputation for having a big red nose and face paint. Of course, like all other clowns, his posts are good for a cheap laugh.

FYI, it is standard practice for a solo STUDENT to pay the instructional rate as they are flying on the FI's license.

EK

[sparks-flying]

Hesam Jet, If you manage to find an instructor that will send you solo, on his/her licence, while they bite their nails watching you out of the window, FOR FREE. Let us know who it is. I will buy him a drink.

SF

[Andy_20]

I've known a bunch of clubs which charge instructor rates whist you fly solo in training!! They can't fly someone else when they are technically working with you as you are flying on their licence.

Stop spreading incorrect information on something you obviously know nothing about. Get a the right story and get a grip!

Your stupid incorrect rants could be affecting peoples choices in training which make them worse off and you also seem not bothered about peoples jobs at fab!

[heli_port]

FAB have approvals for virtually everything now , anyone with any nouse in aviation should know that the CAA very rarely give deadlines . If FAB said they will be getting approvals soon you shouldnt be holding them to a specific date .
Heli hope you enjoy getting the same qualification for an extra 40 grand at OAA . Their marketing still very good then

I find your rebuttal interesting and yet amusing. When one is spending large sums of money for flight training, honesty from the FTO is absolutely crucial. FAB gave me a specific date with regards to CPL/ IR etc approvals, they didn’t say “sorry we can’t give you a specific date due to the musings of the CAA” they said we will have approvals on this date – they didn’t! Honesty in this business is everything and saying you can deliver when you can’t is a bad sign for me. :=

I won’t defend going to OAA (as it’s been done to death on here) or spending the extra money but they have delivered what they promised on time and that for me is worth the additional investment.

With regards to your claim that FAB have approvals for virtually everything now, anyone considering flight training with FAB should check out this official document from the UKCAA:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Doc%2031%20version%2091.pdf

This is my last post on this subject. I would advise anyone training with FAB to do their research.

Good luck. ;)

[skysiren]

To Hesam.Jet

If you do your research properly, you will find that every school will charge you dual flight time for every flight, Dual and Solo, while you are still PPL training. This is basically due to the fact that you don't have a license and you are effectively flying on your instructors license. The instructor has to be there to sign you out and when you end your flight. All this is part of an instructors duties and therefore has to be paid for.

[The Man Who Knows]

Hi
Rang the office today to book Archer GGFPB told it was on Maintenance, I know different ! it has been sold! how are the No Equity members going to take this? all paying their monthly subs and no aircraft :{

[maxdrypower]

The Man who knows eh AKA the man who knows Fxxx All , first time poster as well i see well here goes
PB has been sold
PC is about to be sold
PB is on the booking system but is clearly posted as UNAVAILABLE you will notice it is a different legend to that when the aircraft is normally on maintenance
PC wont be soon
These aircraft are being replaced by SR20's
That is how it is , that is factual up to date and beyond contestation .
Any rebuttle from the newly named
"Pilloch who knows very little"
Ps if you knew the aircraft had been sold why did you try to book it ????
Axxhole!

[Germstone]

Registration Details
Mark: G-GFPB Current Reg. Date: 29/10/2007
Previous ID: De-Reg. Date: 20/05/2009
Status: De-registered To: FINLAND
Reason: Transferred to another country or authority

[The Man Who Knows]

Yer right can see these type available to hire out of Barton during the winter months, ask Alan Sugar LOL:D
Same price I hope £110pcm and £70 an hour wet inc ???????? doubt it:{
Hold on where is SV, I need to borrow another £200K and I will pay you back £250K in 4 weeks.

[GearDownFlaps]

Ahh suddenly everything becomes clear , I think max was hinting at the right guy , new screename same old RM , why dont you get a life

[quant]

A friend of mine is currently doing his ppl at FAB and he can't speak more highly of them. He has flown as many times as he desires and they have been nothing but professional.

I have been down there recently and they have a great set-up and i probably will start training with them soon.

To the haters that frequently post, go spread your poison somewhere else.

:)

[cpt mallard]

Sorry to but in guys but as you will notice I am new to p prune, I am wishing to do my MEP rating at Blackpool as I live in Preston, It seems like a minefield reading all these posts about the FAB scam! am I correct in thinking that Flybpl is a far safer bet? I understand that this guy has been an operator on blackpool for a long time and is a sound guy to deal with, is he ex Comed or Ant proprietor?

[EK4457]

This guy is like a magician pulling usernames out of a hat.

Hilarious.

That's laughing at, not with.

[GearDownFlaps]

Hello again RM
If I am totally wrong and you are not RM which I doubt try visiting the airfield and speaking to fuellers , atc, in fact anyone who knows him , make your decision from there .
New inded you must think we were born yesterday
Why dont you start your own Flybpl thread Rm

[Flight International]

I have been following the thread, been dormant for a while, you guys & Gals at Blackpool must not have anything to do all day, apart from pull knives out of each others backs.
Why ringing ATC and Fuelers to ask about a chap ? who is RM ?
GDF have you some issue with this chap by the tone of your posts you must have

[GearDownFlaps]

FI , I dont have a problem per-se, I have a big monumental problem with the fact that he is allowed to unfoundly , incorrectly and abusively slag off a perfectly good organisation , that he himself is a disgruntled ex employee of.
I said contact the fuellers and atc as they have been dealing with him for years and will give you all you need if you are attemting to make a decision whether or not to give him your money , dont take our word for it .
the folk in bpl do have better things to do than this im sure . Its shame you cant search on this guy due to his inordinate amount of screenames you will quickly gauge an impression of the type of character you are dealing with .

[cpt mallard]

OOOPPSSSS!!!

Sorry but im a little confused now, it looks like I have opened up pandoras box here! I did not mean to start a row like it seems I have done, no I am not RM and not sure who he is, could he be the New Zealand guy who instructed part time for Westair ? :confused:

[jono1978]

I was a member with Aircraft Grouping LTD doing my hour building, it was a great setup. Newest planes I have flown, well maintained, couldn't fault it. Did my night rating there too. If I need to build more time in the future, I wouldn't hesitate rejoining the group.

There is no scam, I was charged the hourly rate stated, I got my deposit back as stated in the contract.

This is a great place for people wishing to build hours in quality reliable planes.

The other guy needs to move on, there must be more to life for you than this !

[Nearly There]

The other guy needs to move on, there must be more to life for you than this !

Unfortunately for this chap, there is not. A decent company has grown into a highly regarded and succesful one 'on his patch' and wiped the floor with him and guess what he dont like it, hence the pathetic attempt to discredit the company by using god knows how many different user names on here to do so.
Any one in the industry long enough is well aware of this Bpl based 'business man' and anyone who aint been in the business long enough to know who he is, just ask anyone around Bpl about RM, they will give you his CV.
As for anyone who his now unsure of Flight Academy Blackpool after reading this thread, just go and visit, have a bite to eat and a drink and chat to anyone in there.
A good solid company with decent morals!

[Currymonster]

I havent posted for a while but feel the need due to the negatism posted about FAB.. Top and bottom is go and see for yourself if you are considering training or hour building or just joining the groups.. Have a look at the aircraft and facilities rather than listening to numpties who have posted once on PPRUNE.. Its a shame and devalues those who actually post genuine threads on here for those who seek an honest opinion.
I have flown at various organisations in the North West and Midlands throughout my ratings and the aircraft are by far the best I personally have flown.
To those who still insist on silly replies, either get yourself a TV, go out a bit more but stop devaluing this forum as it should primarily be for those who seek a true opinion in terms of schools and facilities.

[cpt mallard]

Going to have a look around Blackpool 2moz! will report further.
CM

[EGCC4284]

cpt mallard

ask for Craig

[The Man Who Knows]

Maintenance people down to four day week
No aircraft for CPL Training
Won't be long :ok:

[cpt mallard]

Suggest everyone stick with the other one .com!
Dont even sound the same,
SIMPLES!:)

[GearDownFlaps]

Are they really ??? the man who knows :mad: all is back , they will be there all this week bar friday cos they having the day off ???? pratt, you forgot to mention the two brand spanking new SR20's for 80 per hour , seeing as you are advertising their fleet for them

[XL319]

Ive had many dealings with FAB and found them to be very professional, upfront and decent with a fantastic standard of aircraft.

In fact i ran one of their no equity groups and they always stood by what they said (upgrade of aircraft, maintenance etc) and the staff (including Craig when you could get hold of him) were professioonal and polite.

the C152 was still cheaper than many schools.
Joining Desposit on the C152 = £420 which was 6 months standing order which was returnable.
£55.00 wet rate
£70.00 per month standing order (no nasty surprises i.e. engine fund, hangerage, handling etc)

Nothing else required. So if you factor in say flying 10 hours per month it would cost you £62.00 per hour WET not including your landing fee's....bargain considering most schools charge 90-120 per hour wet.

IMO for what it's worth FAB are one of the best schools around (if your a member you can expect about 600-800 off the price of a CPL MEP/CPL IR if your planning on doing commercial training). Even if your not a member it's the going rate and given their standard of aircraft i'm giving serious thought to doing my CPL MEP there.

Oh and Pony2 Craig and FAB got his CPL(CAA) accreditation to do commercial training last year when they had a big celebration so you need to look at your source of information in relation to this matter.

[captainvampire]

I have just finnished doing 100 hours, in a turboprop for less then most schools charge for piston time building. I did it here
Flights Inc. - Flight Training and Aircraft Rental (http://www.flights-inc.com/Academy.asp)
but there are many companies that offer similar courses.
:ok:
Hope this helps.

[XL319]

Captainvampire come on get a grip. At least compare like for like instead of plugging the company. We are talking in the UK. You haven't factored in VISA/TSA/Servis registration/ flights/ accomodation/food etc etc etc. Your post in totally unrelated to this thread.

Your post should be deleted!!!!!:mad:

[horsebox]

Suggest everyone stick with the other one .com!
Dont even sound the same,
SIMPLES!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif



Indeed.... Just imagine "comparetheflyingschool.com", featuring the delightful RGM

The man of many faces, BnwaKat, DefactoCFIKat, BanneddirectorKat etc etc etc.

;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

FAB are very good.

Ignore the lunatics posting on this thread about problems.

WWW




ps. I'd happily ban him/them if you asked but then you'd lose all the free publicity...

[cpt mallard]

With a name like Horsebox why dont you comparethehorsebox.com?
I dont think you are qualified to comment on Aviation topics
who ever you are!
CM

[blackpoolbynight]

To the Man Who Knows (Jack S**T)

Check out the two new SR20's at Flight Academy Blackpool they seem to be going down well with the group members, they have been flying non stop since they arrived.

:D

[horsebox]

Always good to see someones clumsy underhand efforts backfire!

A below the belt post by "Captain Mallard", clearly aiming to slag off a perfectly good school. The outcome - a thread with a majority of positive comments about FAB.

For anyone looking to complete flight training at Blackpool. There are a number of reputable schools (including FAB) and certainly one rogue outfit. You dont have to be Sherlock Holmes - A brief look round each school, and a chat to locally based pilots or airport staff will set you straight.

If Mallard manages to pass his ATPL writtens, and obtain a professional licence, then perhaps folks might take him more seriously.

[DADDY-OH!]

Children...Children....Please!!!

FAB provides a service, as does FlyBPL. There's plenty of room & trade for both to succeed & prosper, however, constant bickering, sniping & childish s**t slinging looks amateurish & pathetic to ANYONE who would consider spending hard earned cash with either of these two businesses. You guys are a great advert for Westair & Disney Aviation, & please don't tell me someone with no insight into day-to-day life at BLK is going to be better off at Disney' than at FAB or FlyBPL.

In the 80's ANT, B&FAC & COMED all competed & all prospered but neither Keith, Brian or Andy, Arnold & Sandra EVER behaved like the 'Big Kids' on this forum.

NOW GROW UP! BOTH OF YOU!

[cpt mallard]

If Mallard manages to pass his ATPL writtens, and obtain a professional licence, then perhaps folks might take him more seriously.

Think I must be in the wrong forum, Sorry!
I just got lead by a thread!

CM

[rojread]

Daddy-Oh beat me to it. I spent several seasons working out of Blackpool through the '70s and The Kite Club (upstairs in the old signal box) was the place where everyone aired their grievances, told their stories and carried on in a 'grown-up' fashion.

Was thinking of dialling by the airfield again to check things out again after a few years, but frankly this thread has put that on the back burner!

Even the Roller Coaster can't get it's act together now either!

[GearDownFlaps]

Daddy oh , the constant bickering and sniping is nothing to do with the person who runs fab , it is nothing either to do with his employess you will notice , just for your reference he is known as thunderbird one and you will notice his lack of any sniping whatsoever here or anywhere else ,
but ho hum

[captainvampire]

Actually XL319 you don’t need TSA or Sevis approval to hour build in the USA. Why don’t you do your home work before you show your ignorance.
Oh and that’s right you don’t eat in the UK but when you go to the States you suddenly need to come up with a food allowance. As for the accommodation and airfare if you cant afford to stay in a motel in the US and pay the $500 airfare your probably in the wrong industry.

[lewis529]

I Have Flying Lessons With Westair I Would Consider Them Tbh :)

[XL319]

You obviously take these posts as a personal attack. TSA/Servis is not required to hour build correct. However I'm wondering who on would hour build in a turbo prop when (i presume) a type rating is required.
As for food. Remember you are not able to work in the US normally so therefore this has to be an extra expense. As previously stated your post was totally unrelated to this thread. POINTLESS!!!

[The Man Who Knows]

The sinking ship is listing, Rates Bailiffs, Bailiffs, Rates !!!!!!!:{:{:{

[cpt mallard]

Yeah I heard about that one!
If someone owes you money the best thing to do is knock on their neighbors door first,
That is just what the Bailiffs did!

Hey its a while since the Riverdance was listing, What ever happened to that?:p

[maxdrypower]

Just for the unitiated and people who are looking at this with a view to learning to fly maybe with FAB , Mallard and The man who knows :mad: all are two local professionally unsuccessful motormouths with no affiliation to flight academy whatsoever , this is however why they are so sour because they would like to be .
I think you confused the bailiffs with the persons delivering the brand new aircraft to FAB .
FAB is a thriving school with many members and a good reputation call in and ask, see for yourself .They have a good relationship with the most of the other outfits on the field , in fact a family member of one of the other schools recently completed his CPL in the first sitting through FAB , so they (one of the most established schools on the field) obviously dont see us in the same light , make of that what you will.
But Mallard and The man who knows :mad: all please wind your necks in you are boring everyone :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[hughesyd]

i have been reading these posts with interest, and it seems these two clowns have an axe to grind with FAB. Thing is , speaking from someone interested in training with FAB, its clear FAB is a well run and respected school with a good rep. Give up guys, your only making yourselves look like idiotic children. All you have done is assured people like me not to bother coming anywhere near your flight establishement when i do head over to Blackpool!.If this is how you promote your own business...........god knows how you run it. I know where i will be spending my hard earned cash .

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yep, I echo the last two posts.

The Man Who Knows and Capt Mallard are a good example of the petty mud slinging element that is a constant feature of the UK flying training industry. People on airfields fall out. Businesses are easy to start and easily go bust. Over time resentment is common.


And so we find ourselves here. A currently trading company, offering a good product, employing happy staff and with customers posting happy reports on PPRuNe is attacked, again and again by a couple of dickheads with an internet connection.

Its a feature of both the medium and the industry so its as well this thread stands as an educational resource.



WWW


ps Treat the flying training industry in the same way the wise man treats the second hand car industry. There are good guys, bad guys and sharks. Telling the difference is hard.

[XL319]

Exactly....i heard they continue to expand having purchased a cessna citation:ok:

[cpt mallard]

Strange! they were not airside, and there was no truck with a brand new cirrus on it!
what are the hire RATES for a cirrus anyway?:D

[GearDownFlaps]

Jeeeesus you really are a pilloch , are the cirrus a figment of everyones imagination then???? or are the many many happy members and staff flying them all lying about their experiences ?????
But as you brought it up again I feel the need to leap on some free publicity, the cirrus are available to group members for 80 per hour wet and all for a small stake of 130 per month I defy you to find a similar rate anywhere on the planet ,youll be pushing to find a 172 for that .
Thanks capt we applaud your misplaced questioning , must keep a look out for these bailliffs , pesky creatures like ninja's you just cant see em

[Lattitude Nut]

When a flying school goes bankrupt it inevitably offends some of it's customers and this in turn stays in people's minds for a long time.

When a new firm comes along, it should be viewed on merit. However if there any connections (such as the people engaged) between the bankrupt organisation and the new organisation, then people will naturally be wary. If the new organisation has very high profile advertising, which is rather less than transparent, it will make customers very wary indeed.

This very public display of rather pathetic in-fighting suggets left-over connections somewhere, and can do little to enhance anyone's view of GA.

Let alone what a regulator might make of it ! :=

[blackpoolbynight]

Flight Academy Blackpool/Aircraft Grouping/Silverstar Maintenence Services and Equity Air would like to assertain that we have no connections or involvement with any other flying school on the airfeild that has previously been bankrupt and re started under another name. Neither do we or our staff involve ourselves with any individual involved with any of these old/new companies. We promote our companies as new generation companies with new generation aircraft with total transparency and are very proud of what we have acheived so far and will acheive in the future.
We thank all for the great comments on this thread and it just goes to show (not including a couple of people who are not our customers) that our hard work has paid off.

[XL319]

Keep doing what your doing and FAB will go far.....one of the best schools in the North IMO!!! People/organisations hate to see others go one better and they only display their jeaslously/greed/frustrations here. :ok:

[rehan]

Hi All,

Is there a limit on the number of people that can join a no equity group for a given aircraft with AGL?

What is availabilty of the aircraft like? From what I've read it seems AGL offer really good prices and have good aircraft. Is there anyone using the C152 out of Barton?

Thanks,

Rehan

[cpt mallard]

It was G-GFIA someone Crashed it ! dont know if they have another one over there yet.

[cpt mallard]

Hey whats with the ex air 2 bob captain WTP?
he was seen drinking outside an Airport pub on Friday with a group of guys including RM and IDB and then went round to FAB!
Feet in both camps or what?
The rumours are interesting though!

[Desert Strip Basher]

Just to add a bit of balance to what seems a pretty petty thread. I looked at this group a while ago. I decided against joining as though an employee/employer states here that the groups are limited to 20, the same aircraft are used by the school so really it's unlimited. Also, from what I could make out the school takes priority over the group members, so if you're in one of the groups away form B'pool and they need your aircraft, you could get left high and dry with nothing to fly for weeks. Effectively you're subsidising school operations. The claims on the website about the fitout of the aircraft were also incorrect. If there is a 'scam', this is it, though I doubt it makes them any different to other operators. There is someone on here who does leasing - that seems to be a very good deal. Myself I went the US route and though people will drawl on about drilling holes in the sky, hour building is what you make of it and how you challenge yourself, so it doesn't matter where you do it, it's how you do it ;)

[GearDownFlaps]

Not a bad post but the balance of which you speak is based on conjecture and hypotheitical circumstances.
yes the aircraft are used by the school but availability is not now nor has it ever been an issue . You are in a no equity share group if the aircarft is avail then use it if it isnt you dont , this would be the same if you had a ten grand share in a pa28. "From what you could make out" so basically "conjecture" the school does not take priority at all bookings are made on availability of the aircraft , bookings are never taken from group members to fulfill other requirements .
Aircraft are not brought over from barton or durham to be used at blackpool to the detriment of other members . It does not work that way . perhaps if you had asked rather than making stuff up you would have been told this . The only time they would me brought away from their home base is for maintenance , fact of life A/c need maintenance. In actual fact group members often get free transit flights if they bring the aircaraft over for said maintenance.
Which aircarft fit are you debating ??? out of interest . all our aircraft havea good fit and all are Garmin 430/530 equipped (those that arent fully glass ), if you had seen these aircarft without what they stated did you bring it to the the attention of the person who showed you????? or are you making this out again.
All our aircarft are available to view by anyone who wishes to use us , if there are discrepancies on the website with the aircraft please inform us of this , there is certainly no intent to scam b ut please do this at the time with whomever shows you the aircraft not come on a site and subtely slag off a good operation

[XL319]

Desert Strip Basher
Sorry but your talking absolute b******k's. I had first hand experience that FAB/ACG had the most advanced avionics I had witnessed. All aircraft had been upgraded to garmin GPS, mode S, VOR/ILS. Also most no equity groups had their own aircraft (possibly with the exception of Blackpool group) so availability was fantastic. Neither did the group/company make any priority over lessons to group members. Sorry but I never saw any hint of a scam. Maybe you hold a grudge? FAB are (IMO) the UK's answer to training instead of going to the USA.

[Robin400]

I had first hand experience that FAB/ACG had the most advanced avionics I had witnessed. All aircraft had been upgraded to garmin GPS, mode S, VOR/ILS."
Agreed but none of then transmit ADS-B from the mode S.
Any reason why?

[Desert Strip Basher]

GDF and XL - why are you so confrontational? I am merely expressing my opinion to help a poster above which is what this site is for? I have no grudge nor bias as I am not involved - can you say the same?

Rehan asked about the 152 group and this is what fit I was highlighting. It was the case at the time so please don't be so rude as to say I'm talking b******k's. And please don't say any 152 avionics are the most advanced as no one would expect them to be. I've just checked the website actually and the same info is still there, if they've been upgraded since then my apologies - but I bet you can't confirm they have. My 'conjecture' was based on what I saw in Durham, I wasn't going to try and change an organisation - why would I?

Now I refuse to be drawn any further on such a petty issue when I was trying to help.

[sion22]

can any CATS students who have been to this blackpool group reading this thread msg me as i need about a 50 h build

i am looking for the group that operate at about £55 per hour wet for a monthly standing order of about £70 if i am right

thanks

[Robin400]

Your fuel bill alone for a 108hp lycoming will be £40.00 plus a landing fee of £12.50 and around £49.00 for a 360 lycoming, plus a landing fee of around £15.00.
Insurance and engineering will double this figure.
As a member of a group I can assure you that these a realistic figures
Any business has to show a profit and pay its bills!!!!!!

[GearDownFlaps]

DSB , i wasnt being confrontational I wish to know what the discrepancies of which you still speak are ???? you say its on the website ?? have you checked the aircraft what are they??????
all our 152s have Ils and spare vor garmin 430s and mode s Txpndr
you will lose your bet As I can confirm anything you request but you have to tell us what it is you are referring too ? The only reason the responses came back appearing rude is because you di not back up what you say , Have you actually visited FAB ???? It certainly doesnt appear that way in your post ? If you did could you tell us who it was you spoke to and showed you round ?? and did not show you these aircraft ??? As this is what we do when we get potential customers .
As for the chap wishing to do hour building check the website for the exact figures but our 152;s are 45 per hour not sure of the monthly rate but it is on the website , as far as I am aware at the moment no one hour building went through CATS but I may be wrong .

[XL319]

The avionics on the C152 outdo, most C152's around and probably a lot of the piper fleet.
I get confrontational on here when you state information which is untrue!!

[Robin400]

The avionics on the C152 outdo, most C152's around and probably a lot of the piper fleet. Lookout, Lookout, Lookout is a must when learning to fly.
Having all these toys is unnecessary and dangerous when learning to fly.
A flight sim computer pilot continuously looks at the flight instruments and is oblivious to what takes place outside. They will never maintain any form off lookout because the have not been taught to do so from the word go. G..d help other airspace users...:eek:

So connect up your ADS-B to help prevent other airspace users from banging into you while you play airline pilots.

[GearDownFlaps]

Robin, lookout is something that is down to the instructor to teach and should be drummed into the student during training, it matters not what equipment is on board , we train people on sr20's now they have all the equipment you would ever want , but lookout is instilled into them in the same manner as any other aircraft .
Interesting that you bang on about lookout then whine about adb-s to prevent people banging into us , if you are effectively looking out as you preach then you shouldnt be hitting anyone correct?
All our aircraft appear on tcas and SSR what exactly is it you think we are invisible too

[Robin400]

Experience has demonstrated on many occasions anyone who has played with flight sim has never had to incorporate lookout at part of the game.
Once in a real aircraft they are continually looking inside at all the bells and whistles that your aircraft are equipped with.
It is very difficult for then to incorporate lookout however many times it is pointed out to them. This is a fail point on the skill test. Basic equipment is all that is required for basic training.
I am not against modern avionics but they should ideally be restricted to advanced instrument training.
And for all your hot ship crew please bear in mind that below 3000ft clear of cloud in sight in of the surface in 3k or 1500m the maximum speed is 140kts.!!!!!!!!:=

ADS-B I cannot see you nor can anyone with Garmin equipment.
Only a very limited number of aircraft operate around Blackpool carry TCAS. So a basic service, which is all you can obtain much of the time, is of little use.

[GearDownFlaps]

So lookout then :ok:
Our Sr20,s cruise at 120kts
I have met some stupid people but none yet who think that a real aeroplane is a flightsim.
No one is saying that basic equipment is all that is required , the original poster in this issue was enquiring about hour buidling not PPL training , that said the cpl is almost the same so the same caveat applies , basic is all thats needed .
Yes we train on an SR20 with all the bells and whistles that does not mean to say we use them . the instrumentation tells the student the same thing it is just represented differently and ASI is still an ASI as is an AI as is a VSI the student gets used to what they get used to. but whether you set 1023 on a digital altimeter or analogue 3000ft will still be 3000ft and the student will still fly that altitude .
The only negative against flight training in such an aircraft is that the syllabus PPL wiese does not cater for glass cockpits ADC's etc etc.
But for 80 per hour wet wouldnt you wanna fly em:}:}

[Desert Strip Basher]

GDF. You need to re-read your threads if you don't think you appear confrontational. And I might add that you're not a very good advertisement for your organisation. Now, the fit you claimed (and still do as this has just been taken from the website) was:


Garmin GNS 430 Colour Moving Map GPS Nav/Com With ILS
Garmin GI 106A With Glideslope
Garmin GMA340 Audio/Marker Panel
Bendix King KX155A 2nd Nav/Com
Bendix King KN 64 DME
Bendix King KR 87 ADF
Garmin GTX 330 Mode S Transponder

The 152 I looked at definitely didn't have a GNS430, a GMA340 or GTX 330. Now that really is enough as I'm sure you're the sort of person who cannot accept when you are wrong. And by the way, looking at your website the 152's are also £55/hr now rather than £45 that you state. Streuth.

[GearDownFlaps]

Okay lets just say then that when you looked at the aircraft ,if in fact you did , and didnt just look at the pic on the website this equipment wasnt fitted , I can assure you it now is and has been for some considerable time.

[Andy_20]

As part of the C152 group i can clarify with GDF. The aircraft are top notch in my opinion and perfect for their purpose. Desertstrip basher, seems to me your just looking for an argument. Whats the point?

Although, I do agree with you that this thread has turned pretty petty overall.

Suprised a MOD has let this carry on.:ugh:

[Robin400]

I have met some stupid people but none yet who think that a real aeroplane is a flightsim. It was never my intention to suggest such a thing.
I was trying to make the point that a person who has spent time playing with flight simulator has never had the need to learn about lookout.
On a trial lesson and after starting training they find it very difficult to maintain good lookout.
Attention always is on the panel because that is what they have unfortunately got accustomed to and need detraining.

[jono1978]

Just to give my view...

I used Flight accademy last year/early this year to hour build. The planes are of a great standard, the newest I have ever flown. Your bookings are booked via an online system, so once its booked, you generally dont get moved around for other people, only if a/c goes tech which cant be predicted. Each member can book only 3 confirmed slots so everyone gets a fair chance, you can book as many slots as you like, once you use a confirmed slot up then your next provisional booking becomes confirmed.

I found this a brilliant cost effective way to build my hours, with safe and well maintained aircraft. I flew the PA28's from both Blackpool and Barton.

I would highly recommend this place to anyone, go and visit them, see what you think

[Desert Strip Basher]

Right. My friend who still flies from Tees Valley has got back to me to confirm (as per my post which has mysteriously been deleted??!!). The fit of the Durham aircraft, as of one month ago did certainly not have the following:

Garmin GNS 430 Colour Moving Map GPS Nav/Com With ILS
Garmin GMA340 Audio/Marker Panel
Garmin GTX 330 Mode S Transponder

Most of the equipment fitted was 'old and knackered'. It is fact that sometimes the Durham 152 was absent for 'weeks at a time'. In parallel, the school never went without. I wouldn't be so daft as to make any suggestion that might not be the same as employees of this school (or seemingly moderators of this site), though you may infer your own conclusion. Even the post above is confused as to whether he/she used the school or group.

Now I really have no grudge with this school/group, but I do take offence to being called a liar by employees of the school when they are so incorrect in their own facts. This is all fact, there was and is no picture on the website and I saw the aircraft - white with red and dark blue lines, ident on website G-GFID - someone correct me if i am wrong. Some of the other aircraft types may serve people well, though my conclusion was that the 152 organisation was questionable. DYOR.

[XL319]

That's strange because it's G-GFIB at DTV at present and I think 'weeks at a time' is totally un true. I also think 'old and knackered' is untrue....if an avionic item works should this be classed as "knackered"? I would like to add that I am no way connected with the school now.

[Bob Stinger]

It is a bit dissapointing that courses advertised on the website are not yet running.
I rang them up last week and the FI course still hasnt got the go ahead, yet it has been "happening very soon" for well over 18 months.

[JUST-local]

I am surprised the lack of approvals has not been mentioned before.
They do PPL, MEP & CPL. As stated they have been advertising the other courses for around two years, must be embarrassing for the staff! :ugh:
and more so for anyone who has been waiting to do a course with them.....

[GearDownFlaps]

Emabarrasing ? No !
I agree that maybe courses we dont run currently shouldnt be advertised or maybe it should be stated that we are awaiting approval .This is a managment decision and they have their reasons for doing it . Any enquiry to the school they will be told we are waiting for approvals . You have lost nothing and are then free to pursue other avenues .
That said we are not the only provider who you can go to to train in these disciplines . If you are holding out there must be some reason for it , Bob S you surely havent been waiting 18 months for an FI course have you .
Anyone connected with flying and who has had any dealings with the CAA should know that they dont do anything in a hurry and you cannot get a date for completion for anything Blood and stone comes to mind.
Manuals get submitted to the CAA for approvals ,when people phone up to enquire all the staff can say is , we are awaiting approval .
FAB is a relatively new schoool and is progressing well and buidling up the approvals as we go . From small acorns and all that .
Just come and have a coffee with us and we can explain all the plans show you round and see what you think .
We are new and learning some things as we go, but there is a lot of experience and know how there and we will get there please dont hold early issues against us .
Cheers :ok:

[Bob Stinger]

GearDownFlaps,
18mnths ago i wasnt ready so i made enquires to be told any time now, keep in touch etc, now ive started elsewhere I did want to do it at Blackpool as thats where I live as Just-Local states if the courses aren't available they shouldn't be advertised.

[GearDownFlaps]

Bob S , many apologies old chap .

[Kestrel]

Heard down the grapevine that FLIGHT ACADEMY BLACKPOOL are looking to set up big time at BARTON..any truth in the rumour..?

[JAR FCL]

Heard down the grapevine that Viner and his half arsed finance company have done one. I hope he didnt leave on his motorcycle.

[karl414ac]

Also heard very same story that SV has left the country with IRAC on the his tail. The truth will provail in the next week i guess.

Before anyone says it yes i am am ex employee of FAB and i did Bail CS out once my self. I am in no way affiliated with his rival company FLYBPL who all i can say is doing way better business than FAB

Ta

414AC

[hughesyd]

it may be the case and turn out to be true, but TMWN needs to engage brain before opening mouth and think of all the people something so drastic could affect.

Times are tough for many, they dont need their nose rubbing in it.

[JAR FCL]

Thunderbirds are gone!

FAB

:rolleyes:

[ftimesf]

All looked happy and ok when I was up there checking on my aircraft just the other day.

[ftimesf]

Also heard very same story that SV has left the country with IRAC on the his tail. The truth will provail in the next week i guess.

Before anyone says it yes i am am ex employee of FAB and i did Bail CS out once my self. I am in no way affiliated with his rival company FLYBPL who all i can say is doing way better business than FAB


Wrong, He's certainly still here and all is well.. :)

[Desert Strip Basher]

I kept my eye on this Flight Academy/Aircraft Grouping 'organisation' after the unjustified attack from the employee last year. It is true the same organisation has set up at Barton and after making enquiries it turns out exactly the same business model I reckoned was being used at Blackpool. Get a bunch of naive wanabees to sign up to a 'limited member group', then use them to subsidise the school activities by training in their aircraft with as many punters as you can find and prevent said group members using their own aircraft - perfect!! If slightly underhand, but then, that's aviation.

[maxdrypower]

Well we should all thank you very much for keeping your eye on the organisation for us .
Yeh they have opened up at barton successfully they have also opened at wolverhampton succesfully.
Their members at the top end of the spectrum are getting brand new sr20 aircraft for 130pm 80 per hour wet .
The said "Naive " members of which I was one are in the main very happy with their aircraft , training etc etc I built hundreds of hours with FAB in the G1000 cessna 80 per hour and the pa28s saving me a fortune .
I fail to see how I am naive .
Yes the school does use aircraft for training but this does not really get in the way of members requirements , it is in fact sometimes quite the opposite .
I fail to see why as neither a group member or a potential group member you have felt the need to ressurect this thread just to have a go at a very good organisation of which you:ugh: clearly want no part

[baldwinm]

I am in no way commercially connected to FAB but belong the SR20 group.

It enables me to fly a nearly new, fully equipped aircraft for £80 per hour wet. Bookings are done via an on-line system and availability has never been an issue for me.

Given the alternatives why would I want to do anything else?

[fuzzy6988]

It enables me to fly a nearly new, fully equipped aircraft for £80 per hour wet. Bookings are done via an on-line system and availability has never been an issue for me.

Given the alternatives why would I want to do anything else?

Well said baldwinm! :D

If they had some of their Cirruses based around my area, I too be flying them for certain.

[Desert Strip Basher]

ok - not keeping my eye on it, just got talking to a lad who flew into our airfield the other day and recognised the name of the organisation. Got to admit that cirrus deal sounds ok but can't believe many train in one and if it's all group membership then that's all above board anyway. That's the point - all I was trying to say was that I was right last year - this lad said he was lucky to get some time for a landaway in as weekends were getting chocker with training. Didn't seem fair to me and he wasn't too chuffed as he seemed to think he'd signed a contract for a max of 20 members. If I could get people to pay the running costs for my business while preventing them from using what they're paying me for I'd be happy too. Therein lies the naivety. Hundred's of hours at £80/hr - so you've spent £16000-£24000+ with that organisation??

[maxdrypower]

yeh thats about right 215 hours over a period of 4 yrs as I have been a member of agl since inception .
We have members who have doubled even trebled that and in less time .
You will struggle in the group to get slots at weekends as funnily enough thats when everyone wants to fly . However that said if you plan in advance its not normally an issue .
The groups are based on a ratio of students and members so there is a nice mix , there may well be times when a member cant get an aircraft when he wants it due to another member using it for training , after all everyone is a group member student or not and a lot of members are people who did their ppl with us. We have a superb online booking system and you can see at a glance when aircraft are available and when they are not . We have many members who are hour buidling for cpl and I have yet to hear anyone moan Obviously there are times when aircraft are offline for whatever reason , this is aviation and we cannot magic aircraft up out of thin air .
The aircraft grouping works well and always has done .
If your friend was having difficulty in booking aircraft he must have been very rigid when he wanted it but thats for him to raise with the ops staff if there is an issue .
BUt as stated before if you can go and find a cirrus sr20 anywhere in the country for 80per hour wet without buying an equity share , then snap it up .
If yo are only planning on flying once or twice per month then it obviosuly not worth it , if you are an hour builder flying many hours then it is definately worth it .
And we have quite a lot of students on the sr20 and indeed are the first training organisation in the uk to have a student complete his ppl on one only last month .
But yo shouldnt when thinkning about this differentiate between students and members , there are just members some are training some are flying on their own and all are equally entitled to book when they wish.
and as you know from ppl training ppl students only book and hour or two at a time solo flyers book them all day sowith that rationale who do you think would suffer ?? in fact no one really ,,,does the system works .
This is why the third brand new sr20 will be online within a few weeks

[JUST-local]

Sounds good value in the case of max power dry, around £109.02 per hour + landing fees.

[maxdrypower]

????????????????? I dont get that one sorry mate

[JUST-local]

"group" membership @£130.00/ month for 4 years, 215 hours x £80 da da = £109.02 per hour.

[maxdrypower]

with ya now dude , i scraped the atpls due to bad maths :ok:
But it was 110 per month when i joined as we didnt have cirrus then