Right of Way/Air Law question

[mccourtm]

Here's the scenario. You approach and a non towered ATZ and do a standard (announced) overhead join. You call when late downwind (remember that the cross wind leg will be over the downwind numbers so you will be late downwind). After calling late downwind an a/c calls 3 mile final (wihout entering the circuit and still outside the zone).
Who has right of way for landing? The a/c already in the circuit or the one that just joined on final?
Even if the a/c on final was within the zone would this effect who has right of way?

[Whopity]

(remember that the cross wind leg will be over the downwind numbers so you will be late downwind) NO: you join the downwind leg abeam the Upwind Numbers. Late Downwind is not until you have passed abeam the threshold.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_08webSSL06.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_gad_oheadjoin_poster.pdf
An aircraft outside the ATZ must obtain traffic information before entering the ATZ Rule 45. If you are established in the circuit then the joining aircraft is obliged to comply with rules 12 and 13; unless he is well clear of you then he should give way to circuit traffic. If he is not in confliction with you, and you are not on Final he can land ahead of you once he has complied with rule 45.

[EGBKFLYER]

The Air Navigation Order (CAP393) says this in Section IV, 17(6):

An aircraft while landing or on final approach to land shall have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or on the ground or water.
(b) (i) Subject to sub-paragraph (ii), in the case of two or more flying machines, gliders or airships approaching any place for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude shall have the right-of-way, but it shall not cut in front of another aircraft which is on final approach to land or overtake that aircraft.

Whopity has covered the rest:)

[IO540]

I would think, given normal GA speeds, the one on late downwind, about to turn base, would reach short final a lot sooner than the one of a 3nm final.

Also, the one at 3nm will have a much better view of the traffic (including the traffic on downwind/base) than the one on base because the latter cannot see so well to the right, and somebody descending on a 3mile final will have a super view of the whole circuit and surrounding area.

LH circuits assumed.

This business where the one on final has the right of way sometimes results in people telling porkies about where they really are...

This is the problem with flying a long final. It is an attractive way to arrive if you are flying a programmed route (GPS etc) so you are all set up, altitudes/speeds etc, long before you see the airport, but it can result in you having to do repeated go-arounds. Still, IMV, it is safer than joining a really busy circuit from any side position, or from the overhead.

[ShyTorque]

This is the situation where the RAF "standard join" works well and is flown instead of an overhead join or a "straight in on finals" approach; I've never understood why it isn't more commonly used in the civvy world now that signals squares aren't generally used, and most aircraft do have a radio.

In the situation described, the aircraft joining from a long finals position ("Initials" in RAF terminology) is flown level at circuit height, parallel to finals abeam the runway, just on the deadside (i.e. to the right of finals for a left hand pattern), then turned onto crosswind, downwind and to finals. It prevents the situation where a joining aircraft has to descend in the vicinity of the circuit, imho always a potentially dangerous thing because aircraft already in the circuit are below and more difficult to see. An overhead join also concentrates aircraft into one spot in the sky, whilst the pilots are possibly concentrating on getting orientated into position over the field and lookout is perhaps less effective. For example, I had one scare not too long back on a landaway where the pilot I was flying with called "deadside, descending" and another locally based one called the same immediately afterwards. He was apparently behind us by only 100 metres and very close above and had not seen us at all! We had not seen him because he had unwittingly shadowed our join from above and behind and he had failed to call his intentions to join overhead, although we did call some way out.

The aircraft joining turns onto downwind to fit in with aircraft already in the circuit; to avoid cutting ahead of another downwind, the deadside leg is extended upwind until the aircraft has passed abeam. Extending the downwind leg downwind is almost taboo, or certainly was in my time.

The one thing the joining pilot must be sure of is that he is actually lined up for the correct runway, for obvious reasons. If both aircraft have radio, this shouldn't be a problem if the pilots do communicate efficiently and use good airmanship, i.e. report their position correctly. This is all designed around the pilot of the joining aircraft giving right of way to aircraft already in the circuit.

Note that the recent tragic Coventry accident appears to have resulted from a "long finals join", albeit with one aircraft apparently on an ILS.

[Whopity]

A lot of civil airfields do not have a Dead Side!

[2 sheds]

If you have an active circuit, you have a "live" side - how can you not have a dead side?

[BackPacker]

If you have an active circuit, you have a "live" side - how can you not have a dead side?

Gliders or Microlights or even Model Flying on a RH circuit, SEP on a LH circuit (or vice versa)? Two "live" sides, each with their own type of traffic. Very common, particularly in Germany.

Agreed, you may call that side "dead" for SEP aircraft but that doesn't mean that there's nothing going on there and you can descend there safely from the overhead position in an OHJ.

In fact, in such situations you might even need to maintain the centerline or move over to your "live" side in case of a go-around. Because if you would move over to your "dead" side, just when a glider launch is going on there, well, it's going to be an interesting afternoon for a lot of people. You might even make the papers.

[EGBKFLYER]

Yes and where I fly, there is no deadside AND no joining overhead cos that's where the meat bombs come from to land...

[2 sheds]

My point was that this is very often a myth that "we do not have a dead side" when in fact, depending on the traffic situation, a dead side/overhead join might well be quite safe. It's a potential procedure, not a brick wall! Agreed, you need an ATC service in order to "mix and match" - or very clear, published conditions.

EGBK - are you suggesting that you mix parachuting with circuit activity, albeit on opposite sides of the circuit?

[BigEndBob]

What annoys me is pilots or ask to join left/right base or long final when the circuit is active with 2 or more aircraft.

I,ve never asked any of the above unless i know the circuit is quiet.

These guys are usually doing commercial training and flying the "expeditious approach", leaving everyone else second guessing where they are going to turn up.

I'm just waiting for a confussed student to hit one turning final.

Having worked at Coventry i'm not suprised that type of accident doesn't happen more often and elsewhere.

[ShyTorque]

What annoys me is pilots or ask to join left/right base or long final when the circuit is active with 2 or more aircraft. I,ve never asked any of the above unless i know the circuit is quiet.


At some airfields you may well be told to do just that. :)

Are some folk expecting all traffic including something like a big multi engined aircraft to carry out an overhead join? Surely not. It's a big wide world out there and unfortunately it just doesn't happen like that. :hmm:

[BackPacker]

EGBK - are you suggesting that you mix parachuting with circuit activity, albeit on opposite sides of the circuit?

Why not on the live side of the circuit?

Take a look at the VFR approach plate for Lelystad (EHLE). This is an uncontrolled field with A/G service (at least, the Dutch equivalent) only. It's located underneath the Schiphol TMA (class A) which starts at 1500', but weather permitting there is an SRZ established so that VFR traffic can go as high as 3500'. The ATZ extends up to 1500' and within this ATZ you'll find:
- The main runway 05/23 for SEP(A) and MEP(A) with the circuit traffic to the southeast at 700', avoiding the "Larserbos" nature reserve of course
- Helicopter traffic practicing autorotation descents onto the grass between the taxiway and the main runway
- The secondary runway 05/23 grass for ultralight traffic with their own circuit to the northwest at 300' and their own frequency
- Aerobatics practice including the Dutch Open Championships (next weekend) in an aerobatics box located just west of the UL circuit, between 700' and 3500', plus its associated holding in the NW corner of the SRZ, and their own frequency
- A parachute drop area in the most southern corner of the ATZ (on the "live" side, just beyond the normal circuit area). Oh, and they drop from FL90, well inside the Schiphol TMA so they won't be on the normal circuit frequency

Oh, and did I mention that EHLE has an ILS too? And various nature reserves around the site with lots of bird activity? (Protected species as well, I might add?) And a lot of windmills around over 300'? And a glider field nearby, just beyond the ATZ non-radio or on its own frequency?

An airfield with parachute dropping at the deadside only... Boring.

My point: don't take anything for granted at an unfamiliar field. Take a look at the approach plates and give 'em a call if something is not 100% clear. Airfields rather spend 5 minutes beforehand with you explaining the way they operate, than an hour or more afterwards with you and the authorities trying to figure out what went wrong. And don't assume that when it's quiet on the radio, that the "dead side" is not busy.

[ShyTorque]

An airfield with parachute dropping at the deadside only... Boring.


This used to be the case at Thruxton, Hants, UK. Unfortunately some time ago they changed this policy after a young lady on her first parachute jump lost her life because para drops were allowed to mix with other aircraft operations. In this particular, awful accident it was a helicopter in the hover and she descended into the main rotor disc. :(