View Full Version : Supervised solos - new FI
17th Aug 2008, 11:04
I have just recently passed the FIC flight test and had a couple of questions around the requirements to unrestrict ....
The questions actually centre around the requirement for 25 supervised solos
- does it have to be 25 different students - I am of course not suggesting that I would send the same student solo 25 times - but in a relatively small club over a few months it would be quite likely to send the same student solo a few times - even for the same exercise
- I also assume the PPL checkouts dont count
- what about lapsed PPL - I guess they are students until re-tested
Many thanks Neil
17th Aug 2008, 13:18
No - can be (in extreme) the same student 25 different times.....Very unlikely though.
No - PPL Checkout's don't count.
No - Lapsed PPL's don't count either.
You would normally get the 100 hours long before the 25 signatures.
Be patient though, remember, even though you're being supervised it is still your licence on the line. If you're not happy - don't send them!
17th Aug 2008, 20:55
Remember if you send somebody on a Qualifying Cross Country that counts as only one solo sign off.
However if you read LASORS closely if you send a student on a non qualifying cross country flight where the student lands at another airfield, each of the flights counts as one sign off.
I think Training Comm 1/2007 gave some guidance as to supervision requirements. It wasn't too specific but gave some guidance none the less.
If in doubt don't get out. I twice decided as an FI(R) not to send two different students on their second solo's.
When it comes to QXC's you really have got to be sure on the weather. Check all available sources, Met Form 215, METARs, TAF's for the airfields they are going to and surrounding ones.
17th Aug 2008, 21:01
I would say that lapsed PPLs do count but I might be wrong. A lapsed PPL doesn't have his/her own valid and current licence and is therefore flying under supervision on the basis of someone else's licence, ie the FIs.
17th Aug 2008, 21:08
However if you read LASORS closely if you send a student on a non qualifying cross country flight where the student lands at another airfield, each of the flights counts as one sign off.Complete CR..P produced by someone at the Belgrano who hasn't got a clue what they are talking about! Supervision is about briefing and sending the student off solo; it matters not how many airfields they land at, its still one trip!
17th Aug 2008, 22:34
Many thanks for your answers, and the advice !!!
It clears things up with the exception of the PPL who has let is license lapse and must sit a flight test again - surely in effect he is no more privileges then a first time student pilot and as pointed out by Hansard would be flying under my license ???
In terms of the solos - I must admit sending somebody (particularly on an early solo 2nd or 3rd) does worry me somewhat - significantly more so then my own first solo - but I guess thats why you remain under the supervision of a more senior instructor for sometime !!
Any additional pearls of wisdom on this or anything really that would help a VERY new instructor is most welcome
Best cheer Neil
17th Aug 2008, 23:18
My advice? As an FI(R), you'll be asked to check out students with a view to sending them off on some solo consolidation. Regardless of who has sent them solo previously, if you're not happy on any occasion with the student's performance, attitude, physical/mental state or whatever, don't send them solo. You have to be strong and thick-skinned in this game.
18th Aug 2008, 02:33
neilr - the best word of advice I ever picked up in this regard was "three consecutive safe circuits".Errors made during the circuit, but corrected nicely, not a problem - it demonstrates knowledge, understanding and maturity.Errors made and not corrected - bad news. Reset the counter and look for three more, consecutive, safe circuits.....then (all things being equal) get out and let them go.Consider discussing with them first what they would do in the event that the aircraft landing ahead of them blocks the runway and closes the airfield, or what they do if ATC said..."whatever".
edit: apologies for the lack of formatting - I did put it there, the site is playing up again.
18th Aug 2008, 12:21
With regard to the lapsed licence holders. We have a coupled of restricted FI's at the moment one of whom wondered exactly the same thing. We contacted PLD and they confirm you cannot claim solo's from holders of lapsed licences/ratings.
18th Aug 2008, 13:48
Thanks all again
Keygrip .... sound advice - a strategy I think I will adopt I also like the idea of reviewing several "what ifs" scenerios.
For example I will be primarily operating from a small uncontrolled strip a few mile east of an international airport albeit not a very busy one - there is a class G sector cut out of their control zone as long as we remain below 1000ft
If there was a problem on our runway then a diversion to this airport could be necessary - but its something that is probably not practiced at least pre-solo (in my experience anyway of learning to fly here).
Some famailarity of the airport layout, radio procedures, VRP and holding points would certainly take the pressure of a low hour solo student if an incident should occur
Evilbob - thanks for the feedback - I guess that clears that issue up
Thanks again ..... Neil
18th Aug 2008, 17:25
Briefing/asking a few 'wot ifs' is of course a very good idea.
However might I suggest these are better done during the good circuits immediately prior to getting out. Once it is clear you are getting out I don't want the stude to think of anything other than stamping out another circuit like the last.
As ever so much depends on the stude, the standard of ATC and what access you have to go and join the tower man while your lad or lass is doing their stuff.
Sound advice from the posters above.
One can only echo the sentiments regarding sending someone on their 2nd, 3rd, or even 8th solo flight - unless you are happy then do not get out. I personally have flown with one particular student three more times following their first solo before I was happy to let them go again. Fortunately, most students know the score and have a decent sense of their own vulnerability therefore it's rare you will face confrontation with such action.
Consistancy is what yer looking for and as Keygrip wisely reminds us - 3 consecutive good circuits and all things remaining the same, ya gotta let them go.
Enjoy instructing and don't get suckered into flying when the weather is closing in or the aircraft, it's equipment or the instrumentation is on the fritz!
18th Aug 2008, 23:21
Many thanks again for taking the time to respond
I will let you know how I get on - paperwork with the CAA so probably a week or two before I can get started yet
Best cheer Neil
19th Aug 2008, 01:32
I too would echo the posters above. In the same vein, don't judge a student's skill from a single circuit. Everyone has peaks & troughs - expecially at an early learning stage and often in the same lesson. Consistency for a few laps around the aerodrome is more important to determine if you think someone should be in the sky on their own. You're trying to get a broad picture of their skill, judgement & ability to recognise their own errors and then correct those errors.
Don't forget it's not perfection you're looking for ie like your own skills :p, but 'adequate for the task and safe'.
As for emergencies/non-normals I wouldn't send someone solo unless they could handle the sorts of things that would be a worry. The standard I looked for was one that would either get them back on the ground with a good chance of living, or for less severe events, with the themselves & the a/c intact.
For an EFATO ie not appropriate to glide/turn back then at a minimum I wanted them set something close to the glide attitude & head for a clear area with sufficient control to hit the ground right side up. If time & height allowed then check C/heat, Mixt, Fuel selector & pump (if applicable) and trim.
For a failure where a glide back to the field is reasonable then an ability to get land back on the runway from a glide with an overshoot corrected with track adjustment, flap & slip as necessary. As workload permits then the usual C/Ht, Mixt, Fuel & Pump.
If a flapped a/c then the ability to land flapless or part-flapped without damaging the a/c even if not the smoothest.
Depending on type then maybe also a door or window opening. No great expectation other than to ignore the bloody thing & concentrate on getting around the circuit to a landing with no attempt to close the door/window until at least at a safe height & under control.
At a towered field then also radio failure + knowledge of the in-flight light signals.
Lastly, a safe go-round: Add full power, control the pitch to maintain Vy, flap up in stages & trimmed correctly followed by a normal circuit.
I always preferred to have flown with the student in the lessons leading up to a first solo so I could get a better understanding of their ability and as a way to check the non-normals above without necessarily having to do them all in a single pre-solo check. If that wasn't possible then I'd discuss some of them in the circuit during the 3 or 4 laps.
19th Aug 2008, 03:22
John Farley - I did, indeed, mean earlier than "getting out time" for the "what if" questions.
19th Aug 2008, 11:40
Several references to lapsed licences. If this is the case,its a question of re-issue by CAA (requires current medical and at least one current class/type rating)
More often pilots who are "lapsed" mean that their SEP(L) is lapsed. In this case some kind of re-training is required before the LST with an FE. I would not normally expect to send somebody to fly solo (on my licence) in this case. Get them up to standard, pass the test and fly on their own licence.
It is a little disappointing to hear instructors who should know better, talking about lapsed PPLs, unless that really is the case. Remember a UK PPL (ie pre-JAR) is issued for life.
Whopity if you read LASORS
Removal of Supervisory Restriction
a. The Supervisory Restriction can be removed on the
recommendation of the supervising FI(A) once the
applicant has at least 100 hours flight instruction
and, in addition, has supervised at least 25 student
It should be noted that supervision of a students
PPL(A) qualifying cross country flight is counted as
one flight only*. Approval of first solo flights by day
or night and first solo navigation flights by day or
night are excluded.
*For the supervision of other multi-leg non-qualifying
cross-country flights, each leg will be counted as an
individual flight provided they are entered as such
on the application for removal of this restriction.
QXC is 1 signature
Any other multi sector/leg navigation flight, each leg is a signature.
20th Aug 2008, 09:00
and let's pay 111£ to the CAA for it.
About the only thing that's a tad painfull.
20th Aug 2008, 09:13
I have sent quite a few lapsed SEP types solo.
They drop into 4 catagories.
1. Medical transfers onto the NPPL system. They have a medical and all the paper work is in and they want to take a plane up for a local sortie to keep thier hand in.
2. In the old days if the SEP was up the CAA sometimes used to say that they had to redo thier x-country qualifier if it was more than 5 years.
3. Pilots who fly big things getting thier SEP back want to go up by themselves to practise.
4. Normal ppl who let it lapse has completed the retraining cracking day so after the lesson wants to go for a bimble or a small nav ex followed by a couple of circuits and an aircraft is free.
I do remember one examiner getting on his high horse about it to the point of phoning gatwick before doing the revalidation test. After 30 mins on the phone he eventually accepted that as along as you satisfy all the rules for a student pilot you can send who ever you like solo on your license.
As for if you can use those solo for restriction removal I can't remember if I did or didn't. I do remember though I had used 3 x-country qualifiers as 9 solo's and then there was a debate on pprune about it and one of the posters cheated by changing Lasors to stop you doing it. My restriction removal was all done and dusted in 5 weeks after the license landed on the door mat. Busy school only me full time apart from the boss and he was on holiday 6 weeks after I started. Having 2 solo in the circuit with me up in the other aircraft doing circuits wasn't uncommon. Looking back its not the right way of doing things.
I think the old way of having a test before getting released is a much better idea. But at least the CAA has issued some guidance now about being supervised. It can't be done from TESCO's any more.
20th Aug 2008, 11:35
its always interesting in this job how one of us can find something rarely happens whilst another one finds it common.
Another opportunity for supervised solo is the student who has passed his initial Skills Test, but is still awaiting licence issue.
2 solo students and flying yourself....5 weeks to remove restriction...what did you spend all that money on??
20th Aug 2008, 19:33
Its not cool mate its 2 solo briefs while the circuit student is checking the aircraft out then brief in the plane for the student i was with.
I was being paid 400 quid a month retainer with 10 quid an hour on top of that no payment for solo students. The pay is alot better since I left. I did 1000 hours the year I was there.
If you want hours and can put up with bullshit constantly give the school a ring. And if your not a **** your almost certain to get a Jetstream job next door with Highland