No ATC-TIBA- Your experiences

[max1]

Currently here in Oz, due to staff shortages, we have contingency called Traffic Information Broadcast by Aircraft (TIBA). It is used when there are no controllers to work the airspace. Basically, if any aircraft enter what was controlled airspace they are to announce and self-separate with whomever may also be in the airspace. We are talking internationals and RPT jets mixing with regionals and bug smashers.

Our regulator,CASA, and our employer, Airservices Australia, are in the public arena telling the media that this is an internationally accepted practice and that safety is not being compromised, it is up to the pilot to enter or fly around the airspace.

My questions are

1. Has this ever occurred in your airspace (98 times in June in Oz) and when was the last time?

2. Would you consider it the internationally accepted practice?

3. Would you deem that safety is not being compromised?

4. Any jobs going out your way?

[SM4 Pirate]

You see how widespread it is? Nobody has any idea what you're talking about. Or could care less because they either a) have never seen it used, b) was used so long ago they can't remember what they did.

TIBA is not the Aboriginal word for "Welcome to Australia"

[helicopterdude]

In the States it is known as CTAF (Common Traffic Advisory Frequency).

1. No. I've never worked in a tower or approach that didn't operate 24/7/365. It does happen at airports near mine where the towers close at night.

2. In the States the number of commercial aircraft that will fly into an airport without an operating control tower are less than a handful. Most airlines cite insurance and safety reasons. Occassionally, a commercial flight will run late and the tower will stay open a little later (paying some overtime) or just close but the aircraft will generally stay with approach or center until on the ground.

3. Of course safety is being compromised. There have been numerous mid-airs in the States around airports without operating control towers. I can list 4 in just the last 6-8 months in SoCal. None involved commercial aircraft.

4. I believe you have to be a U.S. citizen to work ATC in the States.

[SM4 Pirate]

Helicopter Dude,

We have CTAFs in Australia too; this isn't CTAF.

This is closing high level sectors and approach/tower units and using specific procedures, TIBA, which I guess could be likened to CTAF procedures in terms of broadcasting positions and self separation.

TIBA is not for Aerodromes exactly, it's for airspace which would normally have an ATC service and that service isn't available.

It's becoming clear that ASA and Australia are unique in the modern world using this procedure; all the while CASA says safe and won't review because there is no need; WTF, get on with it CASA at least have a safety audit/review.

Byron you are a disgrace, Russell, there are no words I can use.

[Bill Woodfull]

helicopterdude, TIBA can be a Tower, Terminal Approach Radar or Upper Airspace etc, basically anywhere where ATC provides a control service but its no longer available. Similar to a CTAF but more like flying in Class G.

Picture a chunk of upper airspace (say 45miles to 200 miles from a major airport at FL280 - FL600) that is open 24/7 (a light 'globe' on 24 hours a day) and due to staffing someone just deactivates the airspace - no ATC services (just switches off the light), you can still go in but you'll just be talking to the other jets and some of the Internationals haven't a clue whats going on (blundering through a darkened room?) because its unheard of as a standard international practice.

I'm thinking that the practice is NOT carried out in England, the USA, Canada and mainland Europe despite the Australian regulator's claim that its an inernationally accepted practice with ICAO approval.

Thats the crux of the question...Can ATCers (in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, EU, the British Isles, whereever) confirm what you do if you have controlled airspace that may need to shut due staffing?

Restricted Area (Fly around)?; or,
Uncontrolled (TIBA, fly in at own risk -mself separate)?

Also, how often is the incidence of such airspace 'outages' in your country?

Just a paragraph outlining you knowledge and experiences, For example... I work as an upper air enroute controller in Burkina Faso and the incidence of airpace shutting down is becoming quite regular and averages 3 hours a day and the aispace becomes uncontrolled with no restrictions - enter at own risk and self separate (a few years ago such unsafe and third world safety types of practices were limited to countries like Australia).

Much appreciated!

[undervaluedATC]

Any for any journos, or Senator McGuaren's "research assistant" [who seems to think we are chucking 'mass sickies'], if you look below in similar thread at the bottom of the screen, there a links to discussion threads dating back to SEPTEMBER 2005!

This is NOT related to our eba - which is not due to expire until DEC 2008 - it is all about us not having enough staff, and trying to end the over-reliance on overtime (which the CEO admitted to the senate recently). And we have been telling management about the staffing problem for years.

see for yourself:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/d-g-reporting-points/187037-atc-staff-shortage-set-bite.html

and look, here's a thread from FEB, 2005:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/d-g-reporting-points/161539-tiba-procedures-timely-refresher.html

[Adamastor]

On the issue of Senator McGauran's libellous statements about "sick-outs", an Airservices manager has advised that controllers are averaging somewhere around 11 days sick per year.

Figures from the ABS show that the average days absent for workers nationwide is 8.5 days per year.

I'd say that the controllers are doing okay considering the stresses of their shiftworking jobs, not to mention the stringent rules on attending for operational duty which are imposed by CASA - for example, duty is strictly forbidden following the consumption of Panadeine and other common medications.

Seems like the journos are getting fed some dodgy figures by an Airservices management team desperate to shift blame!

[max1]

Thanks to those who have viewed, we in Oz are really interested in what happens in other countries , please just take a second and reply if you have ever used it, heard of it being used.
Thanks

[Atcham Tower]

Try Googling tiba air traffic and quite a lot comes up. TIBA actually stands for Traffic Information Broadcast by Aircraft (not Area) and is a procedure sanctioned by ICAO only as a temporary measure, where there is a disruption of normal ATC services, or outside controlled airspace. Over much of Africa, however, it has been in use for years obviously because the money just isn't there for an adequate ATC service. Yes, it's an accepted practice but hardly in a developed country like Oz or do your bosses have corks hanging round their hats? :)

[divingduck]

After 25+ years of working in and out of Oz, the only times in those 25+ years that I have experienced TIBA was as a passenger flying in and out of Australia.
Just imagine it if you will...flying from third world sh!tholes, through third world countries like the Middle East, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka etc etc all at standard levels and given an ATC service (please no bitching about the quality of that service, at least they were there!) you arrive in the much vaunted "world's best practice" airspace to climb or descend 500 feet and then the poor old drivers up the front are calling and listening and warming up the mark one eyeballs!!! An ABSOLUTE national disgrace! I am shocked (but not really surprised) that Civilair don't make a bit of political capital by embarrassing senior management. I mean FFS, if they can't get this heard at the highest levels, why are they there?:ugh:

A friend of mine asked me once if I thought it was a bit medodramatic to say that it was dangerous not having controllers when there was TCAS in all the aircraft.
I gave my opinion that it was actually worse than he thought.
What happens with an emergency I asked? At least if there is an ATCO listening, he can alert the appropriate authorities, and someone will actually get the fire fighters out and ready rather than the old saying that in a vaccuum no one can hear you scream.
In TIBA, you had better hope that someone relays your mayday call.....

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Before this thread and threads in D&G part of forum I believed that this (TIBA) only happens in some parts of Africa. I must confirm that current situation in Oz is quite shocking. The most shocking fact is that problem is not a new one. First posts were put 3 years ago. So the problem exists even longer.
I do not believe that in Europe someone has similar experience. Finally we have Eurocontrol. They take a few percents of our money:mad: but we received quite enough at the end. For minimum of operational needs. System works,until some stupid ATCOs sell their freedom for extra money. Than they have problem and it has been already late.
But I do not want to explain any more:
Management has no enough money to buy my free time,holidays etc. :=

[helicopterdude]

All,

Thanks for a general explanation of a TIBA. I've never heard the term used before. Based on the information provided in this thread, this is not a procedure used or accepted in the U.S.

In the States, our centers run 24/7/365. They usually work the airspace from 14,000 to FL600. The approach controls work traffic below 14,000. Not all approaches in the States operate 24 hours a day. Except for a few military approaches that close on holidays, the FAA approaches are 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

Getting to the point, in the States, from the time an approach closes until it re-opens, the center having jurisdiction of that airspace will take the airspace and provide services to the aircraft. In the States, 24/7/365, there will be an ATC facility available to provide radar or nonradar services to IFR aircraft, and for VFR aircraft when the controller is able to do so.

If there are any U.S. controllers out there who know differently, please speak up.

[Aus ATC]

Another slant on the question:
In Australia, we have situations where the rostered controller can't attend work, or we are short staffed so that a shift is for some reason vacant. We don't have staff on call, or spare staff on shift, so at short notice the few controllers on days off are called at home. No one with the appropriate endorsements is available to come in. So for a period of time, the ATC service in that sector isn't available = TIBA.

While there is no qualified ATC available, the TIBA procedures are applied. The frequencies associated with the airspace are not monitored (or may be monitored for emergency transmissions by a Manager not endorsed on the airspace). No separation is provided.

What happens in other countries? How do you manage short notice absences? Clearly no one has the same problems that we do here.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

[QUOTE][he rostered controller can't attend work, or we are short staffed so that a shift is for some reason vacant./QUOTE]

Once you plug in,you are not allowed to leave position until new one comes.
It is so easy. There were a few situation when happened that new shift didn't arrive on time,but than you must continue until solution was found.
It could be against rules regarding length of duty and similar but AIP states that your facility is open 24/7. Rules regarding shifts have usually "local" status while AIP is state business and as such state guarantees that all data provided are correct to the maximum extent.

As I explained here,airliners pay here for the privilege to be controlled by qualified ATCO so I would like to see face of some Managers explained to Lufthansa's Vice president flight operation why some portion of airspace declared as A or C class was unattended for couple of hours. :E

Believe or not,even during the War,positions on my unit were covered by ATCOs. Frequency was out of service,airport was closed,airspace was closed by UN,NATO forces and so on but there were enough people to plug in,if necessary.
We are overstuffed by 80% at least,so many issues are not valid in my environment. For some people even Dubai offer is less than they could afford it at home.
I wrote it in the past,majority of ATCOs work ussually:
-Maximum 156 hours per month
-On frequency maximum half of that
-Up to 2 months annual leave(guaranteed)
-salary 3 to 5 times higher than average salary
Yes, we are 3rd world country(according to some officials:ugh:),or service is not good as ASA's service,but we are not SLAVES! :=

[Voel]

The lack of using TIBA in our country caused the biggest aviation disaster in our country, when a midair collision between a US starlifter and a German Tupolev occurred in 1997 killing 34 people on board. One of the aircraft failed to broadcast his position on TIBA over the oceanic airspace. Had the aircraft complied, the other one would have picked it up that both were same level, but reciprocal tracks. IATA is also using an In-flight Broadcast Procedure (IFBP) over many African States, which has increased safety to a large extend.

[Teal]

From today's crikey report:

16 . CASA monitors ATC, calls for radar replay

Our air traffic control insider writes:

It would appear that CASA has finally been "pushed" into reviewing TIBA (Traffic Information Broadcast Areas). Well done Crikey and Dick Smith.
On the first weekend of increased TIBA monitoring there have been approximately 15 more closures of airspace; mostly short closures for single controller breaks.
On Saturday night there was a single controller on duty (where there would normally be three to control the 4 sectors, they are normally combined on the weekend) between Canberra and Sydney; the airspace was declared TIBA twice during that shift to give the controller a "fatigue/meal" break. Then again on Sunday morning the same sectors were closed.
On Sunday, however, CASA had a representative in the control room monitoring how it works. All reports are that the CASA gent left the room shaking his head, saying "is it like this every time, oh my god." He requested that the full radar replay be made available to CASA.
It would appear that the first independent review of TIBA from an ATC point of view has concluded that TIBA is not as safe as it would appear on paper. Well, we at the "coal face" are shocked. Shocked that all it took was one simple visit to work out what the controllers have been saying has substance. Where have CASA been? 300+ closures/reductions in the year and they finally take a look after media pressure. CASA is a joke.
TIBA is an accident waiting to happen. Now it appears CASA thinks so too. Most of the problems were not related to international pilots not knowing the procedures, but Australian pilots pushing on regardless to meet their schedules (who needs ATC we're better off without them, ha ha, wait what's that?). As for Qantas not flying through TIBA, well only when it suits. The Canberra to Sydney flight had no choice (other than staying in Canberra, or departing to the South and going East or West first) and entered the TIBA Area 30 miles north of Canberra and remained in it until 45 miles from Sydney.
It would appear that ATC contingency plans are not being followed and 'holes' are appearing in the safety processes (what safety processes if you don't follow the assessed plans). We have nice "be safety conscious" posters on the wall and are often reminded about out individual responsibilities; pity the corporation does share this view or responsibility. Wait for it, "we didn't know" and some LVL 2 or LVL 3 manager will be sacked to save face; too late, GM Safety was sacked early last week; maybe his one-week in replacement will go too?
Bruce Byron stated last week that he didn't want to hear about controller shortages next year and appears to have given the CEO of ASA, Greg Russell, an ultimatum; Bruce, tip for you, we aren't 19 short we are 75 short. We are going to lose 20-odd before Christmas, so the 35 people currently being trained, assuming that they all get a licence (which they won't) will still leave us 60 Short; I guess that's only 4 short under the fuzzy maths that is being used now by the ASA executive. Bruce, it takes 18 months from off the street to getting a licence, add six months for recruitment. We are in a heap of pain -- and there is much more to come.
When "Big Tony" (the Minister) takes his broom out, maybe Bruce Byron should go too along with Greg Russell and the ASA Board; it's a joke that a first world nation has less ability than most 3rd world nations relating to air traffic control coverage.
Then in other news, the employer presented their 'desires' for the upcoming collective agreement (http://redirect.cmailer.com.au/LinkRedirector.aspx?clid=e5025891-b878-4a26-8ad2-c240a5851edd&rid=70ac6a9f-9f82-4748-a87c-e55bbfe757f1). They want to further attack the conditions of employment and have offered no carrots in return for all the sticks they have brought to the table. The above document represents a charter of war to the controllers.
Want to fly at Christmas? Well 'bone up' on your TIBA procedures; maybe you can help the pilots out.

[av8boy]

Unbelievable.

I've been reading all of the traffic re TIBA, but assumed that it was implemented out in the middle of nowhere. --Not acceptable, but at least the total traffic would be light. However, I now understand that it is taking place in the middle of somewhere (between Sydney and Canberra for chrissakes?) and that's absurd.

Is there no way to reroute aircraft through properly manned sectors? I'd expect that you'd then implement a ground delay to keep the level of traffic manageable for the sectors that are getting increased numbers of aircraft. And with the price of fuel, I'd expect that some political pressure may be brought to bear upon ASA from the impacted airlines...


Just trying to understand.

Dave

[ML Pornstar]

do your bosses have corks hanging round their hats?


Not unless they were gifts - they're too tight to buy their own :rolleyes:

[Bill Woodfull]

It just won't go away...

It's a jungle up there | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24019978-23349,00.html?from=public_rss)

But really, if you roster only one controller on in a sector or role at certain times of the day or night AND that person calls in sick WTF do they expect?

Cost (staff) cutting gone a little too far - keeping staff at a bare minimum to save $$ and increase profits...you reap what you sow.

[bazam]

Is there no way to reroute aircraft through properly manned sectors?

Don't believe that it is only one small sector mate. I have seen the whole top end of Australia go down for 6 hours on two nights last month. That was the times I was sitting adjacent to it. We are talking airspace from Broome to the Gulf of Carpentaria, every single route in to Sydney and Brisbane from Asia. And this happens when all the internationals are flying through to arrive in Sydney at 6am.

This shortage is affecting a large number of ATC sectors. And be aware that the TIBA the public sees is only the tip of the iceberg. There is a significant amount of consoles being combined when they should be decombined due workload - no staff. Controllers not given a break when they require it - no staff. When you do get a break you are required to complete Computer Based Training packages - no training days available - no staff. The list continues...

[Bill Woodfull]

I shouldn't have waved such a wide brush baz. Was specifically referring to the single man night shifts which go TIBA with monotonous regularity.

[bazam]

Sorry Bill, I was referring to a previous comment about directing traffic around the TIBA'd sector. I've edited a quote onto my comments above to clarify.

keeping staff at a bare minimum to save $$ and increase profitsOf course, your comments are spot on - if there is only a single person rostered and he/she goes sick, management have to do the ring around and hope for the best.

[NZScion]

Sitting on the phone today for 5 mins waiting for ASA to answer my call for a VFR SARTIME cancellation, the ASA ad they play instead of music stated how the Sydney-Melbourne consistently rates in the top 10 for traffic worldwide, and how ASA have won so many awards for their services (or is that lack of services?)

How can this be permitted to happen? Does it take a mid-air collision for someone in a position of power to give ASA a kick up the a$s? There is no reason for TIBA. Downgrade airspace, fine, restrict aircraft numbers, fine too, but to shut airspace down completely without even a FIA service to listen for any distress calls or provide basic traffic information - unacceptable in Australia, unacceptable anywhere.

[W_Wright]

As an Australian and as a professional airline pilot I'm apalled that TIBA is being used in Aussie airspace.

My job takes me into Southern Africa from time to time and until only a week ago we used TIBA procedures in Mauritius and Beira airspace. The requirement having been removed due to what is seen as improved airspace management. As previous correspondents have pointed out the fact that it exists in Africa is largely due to a lack of resources and if you have been to that part of the world you will no doubt understand.

Currently it also is used in Yangon airspace. No need to elaborate this point I'm sure.

Although it does work up to a point it requires a considerable amount of discipline and concentration to keep up with what is going on around you especially when it gets busy and/or there is a convergence of air routes.

To see it happening in any Australian airspace is nothing short of a disgrace.

[DirtyPierre]

the fact that it exists in Africa is largely due to a lack of resources That's why its happening in Oz. TIBA is due to a lack of resources. Human resources.

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

TIBA is horrendous .... CTAF with RPT Jets and GA dudes all close together without an umpire is asking for even bigger trouble!! :ooh: :{ :sad:

[MIMO951]

Dear max1,
As you say TIBA is : Traffic Information Broadcast by Aircraft
here in my country Saudi Arabia we use this procedure when we fly class G airspace.
This procedure is similar to CTAF procedure when ever you are fling in class G airspace & you are within 40NM of your destination & below 11500' you have to make position reports in order to make flight separation between you & other traffic.

[Little One]

No surprises here as it is a regular occurence in Africa
In South Africa in particular the procedure has been used on numerous occasions when there has been lack of ATC to provide a service but this is usually done either on a FIS frequency or on a sector that has minimal traffic flow.

Usually it will only be done at quieter times on the ACC frequencies like during a night shift and it has occured before that upper level airspace has been downgraded to Class G and either no service (TIBA) or an information only service has been applied.

The oceanic sector is regularly closed due lack of staff and downgraded to Class G.

As for the rest of africa well its pretty ops normal as there are hardly any ATCs in most of these states and none seem to stay through the night so much so that there is a specific TIBA frquency published by IATA 126.9 (IFBP) so that aircraft can "self separate when flying through the continent)