Manual Flare technique...to hold or not to hold wheel with both fists

[Vc10Tail]

What is the ideal manual flare technique for turboprops of length such as ATR72...OTHER THAN THE MANUFACTURER SOP ofcourse...

1)To hold power levers with one palm and wheel with the other all the way to nosewheel touch down(irrespective of crosswinds)

2)hold one palm on PL and other on wheel till mains touch down...then maneuvre wheel with both hands till nose-wheel touches down and one palm back on PL for Reverse as necessary

3)hold wheel with both palms after retarding PL at the recommended RA height

4)with one palm hold alternately PL and wheel as circumstances dictate.

And comparatively, what is demanded of heavy jets?

Thanks:bored:

[RAT 5]

IMHO the type of a/c is not too important. In most cases it is still possible to make a G/A from the flare and even after touchdown. Thus it is necessary to keep one hand on the thrust/power levers or throttle until you decide that you want to stay on the ground. Then apply whatever stopping systems you have. At touchdown speed the rudder should give enough directional control and then once slowing down any manual nose wheel steering device can be used as necessary.
On jets I see many F/O's with their hands on the Thrust Reversers in the flare before the wheels have touched, especially if they are floating. You can sense their nervousness and wanting to stop as fast as possible, yet they have made the possibility of a G/A more difficult.

[Vc10Tail]

what does IMHO mean?

I concur...but what exact point can the palm be released from PL to the other to assist in mechanical advantage sometimes required for a nose heavy flare?

Thrust reverse ideally should not be activated till after nose wheel has also landed but frequently this is not complied with...especially if the runway length or target exit taxiway is an issue.

Go Around after touch down should only be the Commander's authority I believe.

Please elaborate your answer as per the options I provided...to help answer my question more precisely.But thanks all the same RAT

[CamelhAir]

Never ever take your hands off the power levers until reverse in cancelled and they are at idle for the taxi. Why would you need 2 hands on the control column anyway? Time to go to the gym maybe? :E

IMHO - in my humble opinion

[rubik101]

Try caressing the thing, not fighting it.

[exeng]

"Thrust reverse ideally should not be activated till after nose wheel has also landed but frequently this is not complied with...especially if the runway length or target exit taxiway is an issue"


Not so on any of the Boeings or Airbuses I've flown - application of reverse as soon as mainwheel touchdown is achieved is the norm.

Our airline SOP is that reverse is applied by the handling Pilot which can at times result in a delayed reverse application (more common after a 'difficult' landing - say in crosswind conditions). Other airlines SOP's call for the non-handling Pilot to apply reverse upon mainwheel touchdown allowing the handing Pilot to concentrate his attention on the landing rollout. Here lies the real debate and in my view the latter SOP is safer as well as being more efficient with less brake wear.

I've tried to get my current airline to change with no luck so far.


Regards
Exeng

[5150]

I flew the 42 and 72, and now fly the NG 737 I find the landing technique for all types fairly similar.

Unless you're a tad on the weak side, there's no reason you can't land the aircraft the recommended way, ie retarding PL's while simultaneously flaring the aircraft, with the levers hitting the idle stop the same time the wheels touch down.

More importantly on the 72 is not try and land it like a Cessna by strectching the flare in order to gain a smooth touchdown, as this can (and has) result in a tailscrape.

ATR's stop on a dime, so I wouldn't be too fussed about getting reverse pitch in asap, as invariably the discing of the props will provide plenty of drag before worrying about stopping the thing . . . (unless LDA is a serious issue!)

[Rananim]

application of reverse as soon as mainwheel touchdown is achieved is the norm.

You mean idle reverse right?

Other airlines SOP's call for the non-handling Pilot to apply reverse upon mainwheel touchdown allowing the handing Pilot to concentrate his attention on the landing rollout.

Ooh,I dont like this.Too many cooks.One pilot flies the plane,the other monitors.Can you tell me how selecting reversers would interfere with your concentration on rollout?

[Capt. Inop]

You mean idle reverse right?

That's the way we do it on the 737, as soon as the nosewheel is on the ground spool em up. :ok:

[Clandestino]

What is the ideal manual flare technique for turboprops of length such as ATR72...OTHER THAN THE MANUFACTURER SOP ofcourse...

SOP is the ideal technique for anything - especially for the airplanes that are around for more than a couple of years so their SOPs are quite ironed out. If you have difficulties with parts of it or you think some things may be done better differently, don't hesitate to contact your chief pilot. More often than not you'll be explained that while current procedure has its drawbacks, it's the least bad of all the alternatives. And very ocasionally you might contribute to improvement of the SOP.

But never, ever, try to outsmart manufacturer's test pilots on your own. Very costly damage and/or grave injuries may result.

While I have never flown 72, single handed flare, with left hand on power levers till 60kt on 42 never seemed to be a problem.

[getsetgo]

all a/c lands on the runway
maintain centreline and donot miss the TDZ.
if you miss be ready for GA.
try to feel the pleasure of flying as a flyer.
look at far end of the runway to fly it down nicely.:ok:

[parabellum]

One reason why it should only be reverse idle until the nose wheel is on the runway is that, on aircraft with rear mounted engines, if full reverse is applied when the nose wheel is still off the ground it is possible, under certain conditions, to sit the a/c on its tail!

[exeng]

You mean idle reverse right?

Wrong - I meant whatever reverse was briefed or subsequently required on landing (Normally idle)


Ooh,I dont like this.Too many cooks.One pilot flies the plane,the other monitors.Can you tell me how selecting reversers would interfere with your concentration on rollout?

Rananim I think in my earlier post I already did. I say again: Our airline SOP is that reverse is applied by the handling Pilot which can at times result in a delayed reverse application (more common after a 'difficult' landing - say in crosswind conditions). Other airlines SOP's call for the non-handling Pilot to apply reverse upon mainwheel touchdown allowing the handing Pilot to concentrate his attention on the landing rollout. Here lies the real debate and in my view the latter SOP is safer as well as being more efficient with less brake wear.


I'm pleased to see that you have taken up the 'real debate' here, although you have aligned youself with the SOP I folow with my current airline.

BTW watch any BA aircraft at any destination landing and you will see the application of reverse on mainwheel touchdown. Watch others and you 'might see some delay'. Having sat at car park 'X' at LGW for countless hours over the years (waiting for a bus) I have observed the different landing techniques (including application of reverse). BA get reverse in on touchdown generally, other operators (including my own) can experience a delay of some time (including a delay of no reverse applied at all in some instances - generally observed in Xwind conditions).

Worthy of debate I think.


Regards
Exeng

[Mach E Avelli]

exeng, one problem with the NHP looking after reverse during the landing would occur on a slippery runway with a crosswind. If it gets a bit sideways, who is flying the thing now? And what technique is used in a rejected takeoff?
I know of one operator which had the NHP pull reverse in the RTO as well as on landing. With a combination of engine-out, crosswind and wet/slippery runway, it all conspired to really make life difficult for whoever had nominal control of the aeroplane. And at that point, the control was pretty bloody nominal.
Most SOPs call for one pilot to fly, the other to monitor. In the RTO case, the Captain usually takes control, therefore then becomes the handling pilot and the F/O reverts to monitoring.
These procedures are not universal, but almost so - and for good reason. Most times they work.

[Mach E Avelli]

Adding to the above, whether reverse is initiated at mains touchdown or nosewheel touchdown - it's not that critical on a normal runway. A slight delay in selection of reverse should be of no consequence on any normal landing. For the reason for this statement, go to certification requirements.
Adding to the original question on whether one or both hands should be on the stick at touchdown. I know of no post WW2 aeroplane that needs two hands at the flare - unless maybe in manual reversion. That then becomes a separately-briefed and planned exercise. But I am sure someone out there may have flown some Russian monster that does require a different technique.

[NVpilot]

What's a wheel? :}

[Tail-take-off]

ATR's stop on a dime, so I wouldn't be too fussed about getting reverse pitch in asap, as invariably the discing of the props will provide plenty of drag before worrying about stopping the thing . . . (unless LDA is a serious issue!)

Sorry but I have to take issue with this statement. ATRs may well stop on a dime but from time to time we all have to land on limiting runways. All landings should initially be the same ie as if the LDA is a serious issue. This creates good discipline & makes the correct technique second nature. Once on the ground if you want to cancel the reverse & release the brake to roll to the end of a long runway then feel free.

[hikoushi]

Can't speak for the ATR, but the Dash-8 lands pretty consistently (though not consistently pretty) without ever bringing the throttle hand up to the yoke. For Flaps 15, stabilized at Vref plus modifiers (15-20% torque) to about the 20 foot callout, we start a gradual power reduction aiming to reach a point just above Flight Idle (5-10%; where the props first start to get quiet, but before they get loud again) right at touchdown. Usually start actually pulling through to flare around the 10 foot callout, target landing attitude about 5 degrees at touchdown.

Flaps 35 takes about 5-10% more power initially, requiring a more drawn-out power reduction. The timing of the flare is more critical as well, as the speed bleeds off quickly with all the extra drag. Too late and we'll send astronauts into outer space on the other side of the world from the impact, too early and we'll float for a half-mile.

That all changes, of course, depending on CG and weight, aft & light requiring a finer touch and less power. Small variations in descent rate prior to flare between landings due to different conditions of wind, thermal action, approach angle, etc will all change exactly how everything lines up, as well. In the end, it's all just energy management; we ideally try to make each approach the same, but every single one is just a little bit different. All good reasons to have the power levers in our hands and to have a good and intuitive understanding of the relationship between our aircraft's attitude, power, and current energy state at any given moment during a landing.

For crosswinds it seems to work fairly well to start gently de-crabbing and dipping the wing at that same 20 foot call at about the same pace as the power reduction, aiming to be established in our landing attitude a foot or 2 prior to touchdown. Ridiculous winds require a bit earlier initiation of this process. If we have any sideways drift at all on touchdown, even the tiniest little bit, the Dash will tell us. Positively.

Disc / beta can be used as soon as the mains are down. However, if on a normal runway (e.g. longer than 3000 feet) we have to be overly aggressive with the use of brakes or disc, or have to use reverse at all, barring good ATC reasons we have either landed too long or too fast.
Also, the spoilers don't engage in the ground mode until all three gear are down, so it's best not to hold the nose off excessively long for aerodynamic braking.

And the last 5 feet is witchcraft, plain and simple.

[Centaurus]

Other airlines SOP's call for the non-handling Pilot to apply reverse upon mainwheel touchdown allowing the handing Pilot to concentrate his attention on the landing rollout. Here lies the real debate and in my view the latter SOP is safer as well as being more efficient with less brake wear

Sharing the landing run between the two pilots reminds me of a reply received from a senior simulator instructor at Boeing, Seattle.

The question was about handling of a manual reversion approach and landing in the 737. Some operators demand CRM be called into action by having one pilot operating the thrust levers while the "handling" pilot has both hands on the wheel flying the aeroplane.

In those cases the pilot handling the flight controls either directs what N1 he needs (lots of talking as he directs thrust changes) or handballs the task of maintaining the required airspeed with thrust to the man who has the thrust lever responsibility. In other words share the task.

The Boeing instructor was astonished that such a procedure was even contemplated when he heard about this and replied that Boeing has no procedure requiring two pilots to land the aircraft. If such a procedure was needed, the aircraft would have to be crewed by three pilots in case one pilot became incapacitated or otherwise not be able to take his part in the landing.

There is no valid operational reason for "sharing" a landing task such as those described. . It should be perfectly within the capabilities of a competent pilot to operate a Boeing with one hand on the wheel and the other operating the thrust levers whether on approach and landing or a rejected take off. Policy-makers should avoid using the catchword of CRM as a perceived justification for splitting duties that don't need to be split.

[john_tullamarine]

And the last 5 feet is witchcraft, plain and simple.

.. you've obviously flown 722 in the past ...

[oceancrosser]

Our airline SOP is that reverse is applied by the handling Pilot which can at times result in a delayed reverse application (more common after a 'difficult' landing - say in crosswind conditions). Other airlines SOP's call for the non-handling Pilot to apply reverse upon mainwheel touchdown allowing the handing Pilot to concentrate his attention on the landing rollout. Here lies the real debate and in my view the latter SOP is safer as well as being more efficient with less brake wear.

What? 2 pilots landing the same airplane, one flying and the other manipulating the thrust levers? Now I now instructors have to put a hand in every now and then but... as SOP. No thanks.

[overstress]

Well 3200+ of us in BA are accustomed to applying reverse for the HP. Apart from the occasional accidental 'hand caress' over the centre console, it works well and results in consistent reverse application.

On the 747-400, keeping wings level throughout the flare and landing rollout is vital - to avoid podscrape - in a strong x-wind it is comforting to know that the NHP is sorting the reverse. You wouldn't want to be manipulating those 4 reversers by yourself!

On a 380 with only 2 reversers and a sidestick, it would be entirely different.

Each to his own type/company SOP.

[low n' slow]

My five cents worth are regarding going into "Beta" or flat pitch befor the nosewheel has touched down. I can't speak for jets, but turboprops in flat pitch do create some significant drag. If say, you go aggresively into reverse and one engine should fail or one pitch controll unit should fail, before the noesewheel has touched down, you have nothing to keep you on the centre line. Well, you have the fin but I doubt that it would hold in such speeds. Could make for a nasty accident. We're taliking about forces way greater than Vmcg with much less traction.

/LnS

[overstress]

l'n's

just goes to show that this stuff is type specific - most jets I've flown select reverse on mainwheel t/d - then de-rotate the a/c in the most showing-off manner you can :}:}:cool:

PS: ssg: how banned are you?

[Rananim]

Exeng,
Poor technique to select more than idle with nosewheel off the tarmac.
NHP should do what his name suggests.Not handle.He should monitor.Lot of things to monitor,sink rate,speed,spoilers,directional control,etc.HP should do what the name suggests.Handle.He/she flies the thing..crosswind,wet,whatever.Flying includes landing,rollout and decel.
What if the PF detected an imminent bounce,he might want to delay the reversers,or if directional control is compromised on rollout,do you think theres time to command which side to increase/decrease rev thrust to the uninitiated..or if you were forced into a rwy GA after rev deployment(747 enters rwy 1000m ahead in 1500m vis) just after touchdown..you could deviate left/right but if youve only just touched down and reversers are in idle,then the GA option is better..could two minds make a snap decision like that?
If BA do it,then fine.Their record is good.But I think its messy and runs contrary to good airmanship.

Centaurus,
Totally agree with your post.And you raise an interesting point.Is this unnecessary splitting of landing duties an attempt by BA to show good CRM?

[wiggy]

Are you seriously suggesting a Go Around after reverser deployment is a good idea on say, just for example, a 744 :confused:

(hint - this has nothing to do with BA SOPs or CRM)

[763 jock]

On the 75/76 a G/A is impossible after reverser deployment unless you cancel reverse first. The G/A switches are inhibited and I believe the thrust lever cannot be moved out of the forward idle gate until reverse is stowed.

Always check the landing is assured before selecting reverse.