C of A or LAA Permit?

[Squeegee Longtail]

Excuse my ignorance on this but what would be the main advantages to me to be on a LAA permit rather than C of A private (assuming the aircraft has the choice)?
I am not the type to want to (or could) do much in the way of maintenance, so that's not an advantage for me, and I do fly internationally (Europe).

[Justiciar]

Cost of parts, cost of maintenance, cost of fuel (if you use a modern engine such as Rotax or Jabiru running on mogas), better cheaper avionics (some great EFISs on the market which cost a fraction of the certified versions) and if it is a modern design then speed (kts per horse power tend to be greater).

Disadvantages?: Most are two seaters; factory built permit aircraft require permits from some countries and some countries even require permission for all permit aircraft, e.g. Belgium; day VFR only. This will probably change with a pan European sports aviation class.

[jxk]

The LAA permit is generally for homebuilt aircraft although there are exceptions to this such as: Jodel, Auster, etc.. Aircraft operated on this type of permit are technically restricted to day VFR and should not be flown over towns and villages. There are also some problems with flying to Europe from the UK. Usually people operate these type of aircraft to save money by doing some of the maintenance themselves.

Most other light aircraft now come under the auspices of EASA; which is still in a state of flux with the exception of some types which are Appendix ll. The EASA aircraft operate on an ARC (Annual Review Certificate) and will need to be maintained in a more 'controlled environment'. The advantages are that you can fly at night and IMC (with appropriate licence) etc..

This just a brief overview - hope it helps!

[Squeegee Longtail]

...thanks, good info. The plane in question is C of A private, 60 yrs old, two sets of wings and I wouldn't be IFR or night in her! I would be flying in Europe though. Don't want to fly around towns - that sounds daft, maintenance would be done by the same people as now (ie experts in the type). Parts would be the same.
I can't see that it would benefit me greatly going on a permit (which it can do if desired).
Anyone know any different?

[Rod1]

“and should not be flown over towns and villages. “

Wrong! This rule has been repealed.

“There are also some problems with flying to Europe from the UK. “

Mostly wrong. There is a standing agreement with “Europe” with the exception of Belgium and Spain. In the case of these two you have to write to them to ask, but permission is always given. In the case of other states it is the same as for a C of A aircraft.

Rod1

[shortstripper]

I flew over Bognor tonight in my Slingsby ..... felt like a right law breaker, but it was legal! :) ..... IFR next? ,(well maybe not in the Slingsby, lol)

SS

[Justiciar]

I can't see that it would benefit me greatly going on a permit

As far as I know, if your aircraft is on a C of A you cannot switch it to a permit. Production aircraft that are moved to a Permit are switched because the type is no longer supported by an approved organisation, e.g. the Stampe has recently gone that route, but e.g. the Tiger Moth, Chipmunk are still supported and so remain on a C of A.

[Squeegee Longtail]

...it is a Stampe we're talking about.

[IO540]

Can you fly a Permit plane to all of Europe except Belgium and Spain, with no prior arrangement at all?

[READY MESSAGE]

what about hiring it out to others on a LAA permit?
or training?
Is it possible?

[Rod1]

“Can you fly a Permit plane to all of Europe except Belgium and Spain, with no prior arrangement at all?”

It depends how you define “Europe”. You need permission for the Channel Islands (again just a paper excursive), but I think they are not technically in Europe.

“or training?”

Training is possible now provided you own the aircraft. It is increasingly common to buy a “Plastic Fantastic” and train in it as you are burning 15lph of Mogas and many enthusiast instructors charge little more than expenses.

IFR is now a real possibility, but the devil will be in the detail, which we will not know for some time.

I would be very surprised if a Stampe can get an LAA permit, but I do not know for certain. Give LAA engineering a call if you need to know.

Rod1

[will5023]

Think the Stampe, is another french orphan'd aircraft,like the Jodel and the Auster. If only I still had my old Jodel D140c, what a plane to have on a LAA permit, ho hum will have to make do with the 160kts in the RV7:ok:

Will.

[IO540]

Can you fly a Permit plane to all of Europe except Belgium and Spain and the Channel Islands / IOM, with no prior arrangement at all?

By "Europe" I mean the current Europe, from Portugal to Norway, Finland, down to Greece via the Balkans, Italy, and all in between.

If this is possible, it is a relatively new development.

[Jodelman]

Can you fly a Permit plane to all of Europe except Belgium and Spain, with no prior arrangement at all?”

It depends how you define “Europe”. You need permission for the Channel Islands (again just a paper excursive), but I think they are not technically in Europe.

It also varies whether you are in a "homebuilt" or a "classic" permit aircraft. More details here (http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/TechnicalLeaflets/Operating%20An%20Aircraft/TL%202.08%20Travelling%20abroad%20in%20a%20Permit%20Aircraft .pdf)

[Mike Cross]

IFR next? ,(well maybe not in the Slingsby, lol)
I don't know, in many ways it's an ideal platform to read the road signs from!

Back to the original question......
Strangely enough they seem to fly the same whether they are on a Permit or C of A. Neither the aeroplane nor the air itself seems to know the difference.

A Luscombe on a C of A seems harder to sell than one on a Permit, but that's a refelection of buyer preferences. In the case of the Stampe I'd suggest that it's more important to have someone who knows and understands the type (and the engine) doing your maintenance. If you're intending to pay someone to maintain it for you I'd say it's essential.

One thing I've not seen mentioned is that you can't do Aerial Work or Public Transport in a Permit a/c (might be important if your plans include selling flights in a vintage biplane).

[Rod1]

The LAA has a large vintage fleet. The reason for this is that as spares become impossible to get, the LAA system allows them to be fabricated from suitable material without resorting to a certified manufacturer. If you take Auster fleet for example. A lot of Austers have been taken out of the air and stored as they were very expensive to keep on a C of A. These aircraft are now likely to be refurbished by enthusiasts in their workshops up and down the country and will probably fly again. It is for example possible to rebuild engines, or even fit a more modern power plant all under LAA guidance. Such changes under a c of a would cost £100k +.

As Mike says, if a fleet is split c of a / Permit, then it is usual for the permit versions to be worth more than the c of a. I had always put this down to the reduced cost of operation and the improvement on the spares.

The Stampe is either going to have to go on a C of A, or it will have to go on a permit.

Rod1

[IO540]

Interestingly the FAA permits (http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_54_is_repair_a_lost_art_197316-1.html) owner manufactured parts, where no longer available.

A much smarter way of dealing with this problem.

[Rod1]

The FAA allow experimental aircraft to fly IFR and at Night now. The LAA has to keep chipping away, but it is making progress! The Vintage side is one of the success story’s.

Rod1

[Justiciar]

I believe that the Stampe will be migrated to the Permit system by the CAA because there is no longer anyone supporting the type. Therefore you will not have any choice in the matter, but I would imagine that few people will worry about that given what I understand to be the huge cost of maintaining the airframe on a C of A. It is difficult to see the disadvantage of this move for Stampe owners, who might otherwise have faced a bleak future.

The Christen Eagle in which I have a share is being recovered in Stik's hanger at the moment. I hate to think what that would cost in a licensed maintenance organisation. I believe recovering a Pitts if it is on a C of A can cost around £20k :{.

I know that a few years ago a few makes and models had the option of either being on a C of A or moving to a Permit, but the CAA put a stop to the practice, on the basis that types which were fully supported should remain on a C of A and not be able to duck out of the regulatory regime where there was no justification (the huge cost of maintaining an aircraft on a C of A was not considered to be justification:ugh:).

[Rod1]

Under the 1980 ECAC agreement I can fly my permit aircraft in the following;

Standing permission exists for;

AUSTRIA
BULGARIA
DENMARK
FINLAND
FRANCE
GERMANY
IRELAND
LUXEMBOURG
MONACO
NETHERLANDS
SAN MARINO
SWEDEN
SWITZERLAND
ITALY


Permision required, but no problem getting it;

BELGIUM
CYPRUS
GREECE
NORWAY
PORTUGAL
SPAIN

Hope this helps!

Rod1

[IO540]

How long does the permission take to get, and how long does it last for?

[VictorGolf]

One surprising factor is that the C of A renewal fee for an aircraft in Annex 2 on a CAA C of A is much less than a LAA permit renewal. This makes a difference if you were to have the maintenence done by a third party in either case..

[Mark 1]

IO540 -

For Spain and Portugal it seems to take until just before you leave to arrive (even if you applied 2 months in advance) and lasts for as long as a piece of string. I've had permissions for the remaining period of the permit from the CI, though the last one was for just a month. I suspect that if you ask for a month you'll get it. Be careful about stating the intended dates of your trip, as they may just issue it for that period, leaving you stuck up the .... if you're delayed.

And, has anyone mentioned the 80 Euros that the Belgians want deposited with them before they look at your application?

Hopefully, a move to EASA permits will remove the silly restrictions, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Squeegee Longtail]

Thanks for the input. Sounds like I wouldn't have a choice when the decision is made for the type. Doesn't sound too restrictive going on a permit though. No commercial ops planned, so not too much would change.