Jersey, danger areas and crossing channel

[igarratt]

Hi there

Been hunting through all the old threads but no joy.

Planning a trip Liverpool to Jersey and coming up with few questions.

1) Whats with all the danger areas in the channel, are they all active (ish) or did someone get carried away, just seems there is so few channels to cut downwards is this right ?
Can only see two ways to get to Jersey in my little Cherokee :rolleyes: bhd and sam.
Am I better in just planning a route that misses the DA's altogether ?

2) checked the key and my old Trev Tom but cant find out what the backwards looking P is on a danger area ?

3) the danger area with 'up' arrows, is this just showing that the upper limit shown is quite likely be to lower than that shown, vs the ones without arrows that are more than likely going to be right up to limit nothing more ?

4) If I end up coming over from the south west UK, would it be best to: fly around Guernsey to the north/south, over it 2000+ or transit it ?

5) Any advice on route to and from to use, I did hope for a nice 'busy airspace free' route, but if I have to fly under N866 I'll have to play with boscombe, Southampton and/or Bournemouth.

Would be great if someone that has done the route could give some pointers on route and altitude / FL best to use.
Current plan is to route down east wales, skirt Bournemouth, under N866 and cross coming in east of Guernsey's CTR.


Many Thanks Ian :ok:
oh and p.s. wonder why the CI is class A, does that not mean that they could if they want refuse access when I'm half way across the channel ?:confused:

[englishal]

I'd go over the top of Bournemouth then intersect a course which runs under N866 (or whatever it is now) to ORTAC (50 deg N). Bournemouth zone transits are usually no problem via the overhead "not above 2000".

If you want to go higher, call Plymouth Ops (number on the chart - look by D026) and ask them is the DA's are hot or cold. Often weekends they are cold, and often during the week too. Then you could take the recommended VFR route up to 10,000'.

When you are 10 miles North of 50N you will get handed over / told to contact Jersey Zone who will clear you in SVFR. They often give you vectors so I'd plan a route direct to JSY.

Another good route route if the DA south of Portland is inactive, is straight down over Portland, direct to ORTAC or 50N (I like ORTAC as it is in the GPS and you normally get asked an Estimate for 50N) but if you are at any altitiude remember you'll have to decend to 3000' to get below N866 (or whatever) nearer ORTAC.....

[Fright Level]

You may find this leaflet (http://www.airspacesafety.com/downloads/How_to_get_across_the_English_Channel.pdf) useful for planning. I tend to use the KATHY-GARMI 10,000 foot route when going VFR (but you need to change level to 10.5 or 9.5 when entering Brest FIR). With accurate nav, you could scoot down just outside R41 under L980 and go to ORIST and enter that way as the base of L980 is FL110.

The leaflet (link above) gives 01752 557550 as a contact number to check the danger area status before you depart which may save some hasty in flight rerouting.

[Johnm]

I'd plan on tracking West of Bournemouth through D031 and DCT Ortac that should take you parallel to R41 and I normally fly that route at FL050. It's not worth going much higher as Jersey Zone normally clear you in near ORTAC at 3000ft. I use either Bournemouth Radar or Plymouth military to find out if danger areas are hot (rarely are especially at weekends) if they are and Plymouth MIL can't provide DACS then plan B is via BIA and then below R41 at 3000ft.

I usually call Jersey about 20 miles from Ortac and they will routinely clear you into the zone SVFR and then tell you where to fly and how high;)

[Fuji Abound]

It is a good place for naval and other military excercises.

Most of the time they are not active. If you look on the chart narrative it tells you how they are activated (usually by NOTAM) and who to contact. If you check your NOTAMs you will know which ones are cold and / or London Info will usually have the information (or Plymouth mil or Bournemouth LARS if you are further west.

You are not necessarily better planning aroute to avoid them - if they are cold and it suites you go ahead. However, there is a VFR route marked roughly from St Catherines point (where the old CP was) to Cap de la Hargue. It has the advantage of making the crossing about as short as possible if that is a factor for you. Moreover in the very unlikely event you end up in the drink if you are in the VFR corridor everyone will know where to find you.

Jersey zone will never refuse you a transit but the transit will always be SVFR - so it is worth making sure you are familiar with SVFR.

Once you are in the zone Jersey will give you a height and a steer. You must comply (it is a clearance). If you want another route you can ask and are likely to get it, but there is no guarantee. You are very likely to be kept below 2,000 if on a SVFR clearance.

Personally, I think a good route could be Liverpool, Lasham, St Catherine's Point, Orist. That route keeps you clear of Southampton, the airway and the danger areas. (a bit of dodging around the danger areas etc down to Lasham as required).

You will get a service from Bournemouth LARS to 50N - you dont need to speak to anyone else for the crossing and you dont even need a service from Bournemouth if you dont want it - work London if you want a flight watching. Expect to change to Jersey zone just before 50N so make sure you know where it is (they will often ask you to report 50N) and expect them to route you towards the Cap or perhaps direct.

The advantage with this route is there is no height restriction so go as high as you like for the crossing.

Hope that helps.

[Keef]

As Fuji said.

I would feel uncomfortable crossing that much water while trying to stay below that ridiculous airway (N866).

Pick up the "VFR route" that runs from SAM to ORIST (clear of the airway), so you can fly at FL95. London Info or Plymouth Mil will handle you through the danger areas. I've never known them to be active - or maybe they just stopped shooting while I went over, I dunno.

Jersey may ask you to descend to 1000 feet. If you're uncomfortable with that, tell them and they'll usually clear you higher.

[englishal]

I agree R41 (N866?) is a stupid airway and keeps you down to 3000'. However I am happy to cross at that height, you are only ever 30 miles from land, and there are plenty of ships ;) The distinct advantage is the pre-flight.....You can guarantee to go, and don't have to worry about "if the DA is active I must do this....."etc.

We got a bollocking for "infringing an active DA" in the channel once, depsite being vectored by London Control :hmm: But you can phone Plymouth Ops on the number on the chart and they normally know what is active in the channel that day. Still remember that in July / August the Navy is mostly on holiday so you're more than likely to have cold DA's. I'd rather miss a DA than get a DACS myself, I don't like being in the same area as Falcons towing targets on 10km cables :)

[soay]

I'm planning to use the VFR route, approaching from the North, on my way to Caen. Are Southampton likely to give me a zone transit through their overhead, or should I plan to skirt round the East to Gosport?

Also, I see you're not permitted to fly at FL105, so does the whole crossing South have to be done at FL85, or would it be sensible to stay at FL100 until GARMI, when French rules presumably come into effect?

[LateFinals]

I've always found southampton very helpful with zone transits, I tend to give them a call just after compton.

Occasionally they will give you a vrp to enter like Bishops waltham etc so its worth having these in your gps ready to go to if necessary.

If they're busy they will vector you around SAM and on occasions this has taken longer than avoiding their airspace alltogether and going east around the Isle of Wight.

LF

[smitn05]

My advice for what its worth (as a Bournemouth based PPL that has gone to the CI's on many occasions) and taking into account your preference for 'busy airspace free' routing would be to sneak down the gap between Boscombe and Solent (via the Chilbolten Radio Telescope) and route down the western edge of the Solent zone.

Obtain a clearance from Bournemouth for a zone transit and route direct to a point 6 miles west of ORTAC. This keeps you clear (to the West)of N866 and the FL35 height limitation (my preference over the sea is as high as possible with only one donkey). This routing also takes you through the narrow 1 mile gap between the airway and the south-east corner of the danger areas as you approach 50N.

Once you are in the CI zone they will tell you how they want you to route, although my experience seems to be that they provide you with a much more IFR style approach (with later descent clearances) if you enter their zone at FL60 or something like that. Sometimes if you come in via ORTAC and below N866 you can get the clearance "own navigation to Le Casquets not ABOVE 1000ft" or something similar; makes me feel uncomfortable when you can see the fishes waving at you and the whites of their eyes!!!!

If you do want to go for the Danger Areas they should be NOTAMED and Plymouth Mil will always be happy to assist in getting you through them. Bournemouth will also have details as to any operational DA's.

In truth we (I work for a aircraft maintenance company at Bournemouth) sometimes do our test flights in the inactive danger areas as it is usually pretty quiet there!!

Anyway thats my tuppence worth

Regards

N

[Johnm]

There is some confusion about airways I think. That from Solent to ORTAC is now R41 but the number N866 has been used somewhere else further west I think

[igarratt]

this is great info guys, cheers, ye my thought was over the wet stuff to be as high as possible but with this 35 airway figured I'd be smelling the salt.

I much prefer the IFR style vectors and routing than the own nav/visual so coming in high sounds like a better idea.

One thing I forgot to mention was I'm doing my IMC (while I can !) at the mo but doubt I'll have it for when I go, I can get the UK Taf's metars and the CH ones but haven't found any detailed weather on the channel is there the possibility of different weather at sea ?

Thanks for all the info.

[Fuji Abound]

igarratt

This is worth a look as the official source:

Jersey Met Dept Index. The Weather Professionals. (http://www.jerseymet.gov.je/)

You should be in no doubt that the conditions for VFR flying can be fine over land and the forecast in the CI can be fine but over the channel you will have little or no horizon and the sea will merge into the sky. You can find yourself very close to instrument flying if not actually on instruments. The higher you go the more of a problem this can be unless you get on top of the usual summer inversion - but of course you need to find your way down again. Never mind about gliding to land in the event of the worst, in these conditions you are often better as low as you feel comfortable where the sea will give some perspective.

I have no intention of putting you off, just be aware that the crossing can be pure VFR or it can be a great deal more hazy than you imagine. A good tip in either direction is if you start to feel really uncomfortable surprise yourself and by turning back sooner than later the land behind will again give you the visual references you are comfortable with.

A final thought. The CIs weather is also susceptible to rapid change, particularly the onset of sea fog. I have watched on many occasions Alderney go from CAVOK to worrying about RVR in 10 minutes. Usually the forecast is reliable, but not always. Watch out if the forecast includes a cold front moving up the channel.

[Fright Level]

I have watched on many occasions Alderney go from CAVOK to worrying about RVR in 10 minutes. Usually the forecast is reliable, but not always.

Due to it's position on the hill no doubt. I was there a couple of weeks ago on a CAVOK forecast day and saw it fall from 9999 to RVR 600m and back again in the space of 20 mins.

Make sure you're prepared, perhaps even take an IMC/IR qualified person with you the first time as there is no doubt that crossing the sea to a new airport is one of the most exciting and valuable things you can do with your licence. Most mainland jollies can be done in the car in a similar amount of time and leave you wondering as you eat your £200 hamburger whether it was all worth it. Turning onto finals at Alderney, Jersey, Guernsey, Le Touquet etc reassure you it's money well spent!

[RomeoZulu]

IGARRET

I agree with all the options given. I generally go BIA to west of ORTAC along the west side of the airway and height is not a factor.

Bournmouth and or Plymouth Mil will give FIS and sqwark so one feels a bit more comfortable over the water.

A couple of points of benefit.

Call JSY ZONE 125.200 at least 10 MINUTES BEFORE (not 10 miles) the northern zone boundary.
If there is an easterly componant in the wind you will get haze and fish bowl effect so be aware.

Just after a cold front is the best time to cross as you will see the French coast or the Islands from Swanage.

SW winds and high humidity give us the fog problem. You will easily be able to get Guernsey or Jersy ATIS before you cross the English coast so you can make a decision then.

Do not worry about your routing once in the zone. ATC will take care of that depending on traffic.

Enjoy and come and see us soon.

[Widger]

I think I need to correct some dangerous assumptions here. The Danger Areas on the South Coast are only NOTAMed when they are activated outside the times detailed in the civil AIP or to altitudes higher than promulgated. ALL the Danger areas must be considered as ACTIVE and HOT unless you are given positive clearance from the DACS unit, either PLymouth Military or London FIR/London Mil. The link early on in this thread gives some good information (I wrote it!). So you will generally only see NOTAMS at weekends or in the Portsmouth Danger Areas after 1700 or at weekends. It is correct that FOST are on holiday during August, but activity still goes on, including gunnery. There is a NOTAM, detailing which areas have been de-activated until 1 Sep.

If you want to route direct, just ask. Use the telephone number provided for flight planning purposes and then give the DACS an early call for confirmation. You might be interested to know that Plymouth Mil can see down to 1500' over Guernsey and the Cotentin, east to Selsey Bill, north to Hazel and Compton all the way west past Cardiff and the North coast of Cornwall. If you want someone to keep an eye on you, don't be afraid to call.:ok:

[SwanFIS]

"....................The link early on in this thread gives some good information (I wrote it!)."

Very good guide Widger, I often refer pilots to it :ok:.

Just to add.........it is the holiday season and Plymouth Mil are on their hols but be assured that activity continues in some of the Channel DAs.

Swanwick Mil are the DA controlling authority at the moment so a call to London Information on 124.75 and we can talk to them to ascertain the current state of playfor you.

[englishal]

FInding the status of D026 is impossible.....

Plymouth Ops told me on the phone it was inactive. But after reading this thread I thought i better check ;)

So I called London Info who told me it was active
then London info told me it was inactive and it was D031 that was active
then I told Bournemouth I was going to route through, but Bournemouth radar told me it was active and to call London info. When I told them I had she said "oh, doing well today, pilot discretion then"

So I routed around it (didn't see any tanks firing though) :}

[WorkingHard]

Can someone please explain what this is all about?
I have looked very carefully at the abbreviations used in NOTAMS but this I am sorry to say makes no sense to me.
Why is there anyway, can anyone explain?

Many thanks

Q) EGTT/QRTCA/IV/BO/AW/000/050/5207N00433W006
FROM: 08/06/30 07:00 TO: 08/10/24 17:00

E) WEST WALES AIRPORT RESTRICTION OF FLYING REGULATIONS MADE UNDER
ARTICLE 96 OF THE ANO 2005(MIL ACFT SHOULD COMPLY WITH JSP552
201.135.9). AIC44/2008 (MAUVE 267) REFERS.NO ACFT IS TO FLY WI AREA
BOUNDED BY CIRCLE RADIUS 6NM CENTRED AT 520655N 0043325W EXCEPT ACFT
FLYING WITH PERMISSION OF WEST WALES AIRPORT 122.150MHZ. THESE
REGULATIONS DO NOT APPLY TO ACFT IN THE SERVICE OF DYFED-POWYS
POLICE/HM COASTGUARD. AUS 08-01-0003/AS7.

LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 5000FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: MON-FRI 0700-1700

[SwanFIS]

The relevant bit is the referal to AIC 44/2008 which can be found on the AIS website below ---

NATS | AIS - Home (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=162&Itemid=59.html)

[WorkingHard]

Thank you SwanFIS. How the hell I missed that bit I shall never know but it just goes to show it is easily done.

[Widger]

Englishal,

D026 is run by the Army, when they are shut, they pass management of the areas to the Navy, who often use the airspace over the sea. The Duty Ops Officer has full details of all activity going on in the areas and this info is passed to the DACS, either Plymouth Mil (on hols) or London Info. So London FIS should have the up to date info as well.

D031 is indeed active in accordance with the AIP as unlike D036, it has not been de-activated for the August recess. The RN could, at any time, plan activity in any of the other areas, within the AIP times and heights as the rest of the Navy is still working.

One other issue to confuse you is, that when PLymouth Mil are not on holiday, they allow Bournemouth to give aircraft transit of D031 when there is no hazardous activity going on. This is done by a telephone call. When Plymouth Mil are on hols, the call is not made and therefore Bournemouth assume the area is active.

Until 1 Sep, when PLymouth Mil return, the Navy Duty Ops Officer is the DAAIS (planning info) and London FIS are the DACS (approval to cross).

I know it is complicated but, this is what happens when you try and be helpful and apply Flexible Use of Airspace....if it was down to me, I would just keep everyone out all of the time:E:E Get orf my land!...........that was a joke by the way before I get flamed!
:ok::ok:

[englishal]

Thanks ;)

If anyone wants a little trip, I'd recommend driving to the Lulworth ranges when active (D026) and parking in the car park viewing area behind the tanks and watch them firing at the targets. It is great fun watching the shells (you can actually follow them) hit the targets and occasionally ricochet off and out to sea.

[Yankee]

englishal

I think you are a bit out of date with that comment. That car park has been closed off for a few years now, almost since 9/11.