VFR to Iceland

[grahama]

I have a idea of a flight in August to Iceland routing from London area to Wick, Shetlands, Pharoes, Iceland, Pharoes, West Coat Scotland, Isle of Man return.

I have agood plane (robin) with 10 hours endurance, exposure suits and a willing co-pilot however neither of us have instrument ratings and would need to complete flight VFR.

What does anyone think, better to postpone and gain IR or IMC rating or sensible if taking the right precautions and weather checking??????

Thanks for the advice

[serf]

Might be a bit dusty/hazy on one of those legs.:)

[liam548]

sounds a superb trip!

[TheOddOne]

Love your spelling of the Faeroes- didn't know the Egyptians got that far North!

We did Stornoway-Faeroes-Stornoway last August VFR in a PA28-180. We could have continued to Iceland but as it turned out the weather window that we had to wait a week for would have closed around us and we'd have been stuck for quite some time.

Have a look at the Waterfall Approach for Vagar - a spectacular way of arriving! Although the upper winds were almost calm and we had clear blue sky all the way there and back, each the Faeroe Islands were shrouded in cloud. Vagar itself was BKN008, effectively forming a tunnel with the steeply-sloping sides of the mountains hemming in the aerodrome.

Now, we had a liferaft and were wearing immersion suits. In addition, we had a Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) and a handheld radio in a waterproof pouch. However, I've never practiced getting out of a ditched aircraft and into a liferaft. I'm told that unless you do have this recently practiced, the chances of success with the real thing are pretty slim. However, they are better than just wearing a life jacket. Apparently even in the Summer, you'd lose consciousness in a few moments in the North Atlantic.

Don't forget that an IMC rating expires as you leave UK airspace. An IR is almost impossibly difficult for a PPL to obtain, not just financially but in time commitment, too.

I did the trip with someone who is based at Stornoway and frequently flies in the Highlands and Islands. I'd suggest that you get some more experience in this environment (if you don't have it already). Just for our little trip, we spent days and days planning alternative strategies. This was half the fun of the trip.

There's an old adage, 'plan the flight, then fly the plan'.

Good luck

TheOddOne

[Pace]

Hi there

Yes go for it with a question mark but be flexible on your time and only choose a stable weather period.

Why do you want to go to Iceland? If its just to dive in and back out again then you are crossing a lot of featureless water.

If you are going to spend time in Iceland and tour around then its well worth it but spending a number of days there and you may have a different weather picture for your return.

No instrument ability could land you in a lot of difficulty as the weather even locally can change quickly. You are in an area of few diversions and poor radio communications.

I recently flew a citation from Florida Via iceland and down to South Africa Even at FL390 in a twin engined Jet there is a lot of unhospitable sea to cross. The whole point of VFR is to enjoy the scenery and miles of empty sea is pretty bland scenery unless as stated you intend to take a holiday in iceland.

There are so many beautiful destinations in Europe with lovely scenery and loads of diversion airfields that you may be wiser to head south for your trip until you at least have a get you out of trouble IMC rating.

Pace

[XL319]

Make sure you are aware of icing....a guy had to rely on the airlines radio/tornado aircraft etc not so long ago after substantial icing at FL95.

I wouldn't attempt it, my experience levels are way too low!!!

[Pace]

XL319

Realistically he is only going to get icing in visible moisture ie clouds. No instrument ability and in clouds icing will be the least of his worries :-( keeping the sunny side up maybe?

Pace

[LH2]

Great trip. Good responses on this thread. Just a small precision:

However, I've never practiced getting out of a ditched aircraft and into a liferaft.

You need to brief on the use of the liferaft before you board the aeroplane. Even if both of you know how to use it, you need to know exactly what your plan is going to be in advance, because when the water is rushing in and you're probably upside down and can't see a thing and are breathing from your airpockets, and trying to get out of the wreck, that's not the best time in the world to start thinking to which part of the fuselage you're going to attach the painter line.

If neither of you has done offshore survival training, then at the very least get someone who has done it and is experienced in these things to give the two of you a crash course.

I'm told that unless you do have this recently practiced, the chances of success with the real thing are pretty slim.

Once you hit the water up here you're well screwed one way or the other, the trick is not to get yourself in trouble in the first place.

However, they are better than just wearing a life jacket. Apparently even in the Summer, you'd lose consciousness in a few moments in the North Atlantic.

No you don't, you simply die of a heart attack. Ever heard of cold shock?

I'll leave the VFR/IFR discussions to those more experienced than me on this kind of trips. Hope you can get it all organised and manage to do this trip--sounds like a great experience indeed.

[Pilot DAR]

I'll not offer any information about flying to Iceland, as it's been 25 years since I did that, and things must have changed. I was however flying within Iceland the week before last, and can certainly offer some ideas for you, as well as photos to entice you. It was totally worthwhile!. PM me if you like...

Pilot DAR

[IO540]

Don't forget that an IMC rating expires as you leave UK airspace.It doesn't. Only the IFR privileges are UK airspace limited. The IMCR allows you to fly VFR as VMC on top and this is priceless for long range touring.

Not one of my many long trips across Europe, all the way down to Crete, would have been possible (legally) without VMC on top.

Remaining in VMC is taught in the PPL as what you are supposed to do while flying below cloud, but it also happens to be exactly what you want to do anyway, even if you have an IR. Nobody actually wants to be stuck in IMC.

What an IR gives you, basically, is the following

- you can ignore the airspace class (A,B,C,D,E,F,G become irrelevant)

- you get an implicit clearance for the whole route from the start to the end (no ATCO springing up a sudden suprise by refusing a transit)

- altitude is limited only by aircraft performance relative to weather, so the strategy is to climb to VMC and stay there

- you can depart in sub-VFR conditions, land with an instrument approach

The hilarious thing is about the above (except the last one) is that one could (and would) do exactly the same under VFR!! If only ATC gave you transits! This is the problem. ATC attitude varies greatly; in some parts they will give you transit if there is no conflicting traffic. In other parts they will not give transit on principle, just for the fun of it.

I would always recommend getting the IMCR. It teaches you how to fly in IMC and poor vis, and teaches you how to navigate properly. However, the full IR (whether JAA or FAA) is a really major project whose benefits will probably not be realised unless one can buy (or share) a plane which is of adequate standard for airways flying.

[Fuji Abound]

If you are going to survive an immersion in water below 55F you should be wearing a dry suit.

The biggest risk is the time between immersion and getting in the liferaft. On no account should you enter the water if you can avoid doing so unless you are wearing a dry suit. You may be lucky and be able to step of the wing into the liferaft.

Cold shock occurs in the first few minutes in the water. The responses the body makes are involuntary. Of these the surge in blood pressure may expose anyone already suffering from mild hypertension to a heart attack - although at least the pilot should not already have this condition.

[bottom rung]

Having been based in Orkney and Shetland for the past ten years or so, I'll chuck in my tuppenceworth. If you have to go VFR, allow twice as long as you need for the complete holiday. You'll be lucky if you don't have to hold somewhere en route for a couple of days for weather. Get yourself up to speed on dinghy drills; the survival rate once in the water (even in a good survival suit) is depressingly low. Be prepared to rearrange plans as well..... my neck of the woods has lots to offer a PPL if the big jump over to Faroe gets too scary.
The Highland Airways watchdog guys spend six hours a day at low level, VFR, nearly every day of the year. That said, they are in a twin and have the navaids and quals to get out of trouble if need be. Try to be in RT contact with someone at all times, so if the donk goes quiet you don't have to fiddle with freqs while you have other things on your mind.
I'm an ATCO and despite what IO540 says, we aren't all anti GA. Feel free to PM me if you need any help with sorting out the North Scottish part of the trip.

[flyingfemme]

Get some instrument training. Quite apart from the legalities a long overwater flight (especially in summer) can often result in little, or no, horizon for long periods.......

[IO540]

"despite what IO540 says, we aren't all anti GA"

where did I say that?

I said you sometimes get a transit, sometimes not.

And, taking Europe generally, the refusals are often not in any way related to traffic separation. A fine example is the Class C above the Alps, base FL130 but with terrain to ~ FL120. No transit! No other traffic there, obviously.

Then there are huge swathes of Class A, where no ATCO is authorised to give you a transit anyway. Look at Italy for a start.

This is one of the reasons people get the IR. It takes out the uncertainty on the clearance.

Not an issue in the UK because one can go more or less anywhere in Class G, non-radio.

On the northern routes, an IR allows you to fly much higher (may need oxygen) and this itself increases safety because one can fly in VMC, and if something did happen there is much more time to call up etc.

[OneIn60rule]

an IR is my answer.

as for the IMC, no idea if it will do the trick.

1/60

[Mike744]

Consider attending a Sea Survival Course. I attended a number of these courses during my career in the Merchant Navy and they certainly do sharpen up your awareness to the risks and the knowledge gained could save your life.

[Ivor_Novello]

ATC attitude varies greatly; in some parts they will give you transit if there is no conflicting traffic. In other parts they will not give transit on principle, just for the fun of it.

I disagree with the fact that ATC refuse a VFR transit in a controlled zone just for the fun of it. Has it happened to you many times ? And where ?

[camlobe]

Could be worth checking, but the last time I looked (2006) the NAT was Class A above FL55. VFR restriction to below FL55 means less time to prepare for the worst, greater chance of being in the cruddy weather, and not much range on your VHF radio. This latter part means relying on overhead CAT to relay your required position reports as well as any other calls you don't want to make but may have to.

Know a guy who, up until four years ago, used to go from here to Iceland every year with his wife in a DR400-140. They always made it both ways without concern, but he did have an IR. Apparently, they enjoyed Iceland more than anywhere else that they had travelled, hence the return trips.

camlobe

[Pace]

Camlobe

It is the lack of IR that is the concern not only because in such a trip you are likely to need it but also because the lack of even a UK IMC tends to indicate low time and inexperienced pilots.

That part of the world is no place for low time and inexperienced pilots.
Dive in at the deep end and you either sink or swim, gain experience fast or become a statistic.

Better to select a VFR route where you can enjoy the scenery rather than miles of open sea and have loads of alternatives then save this trip for when they have a certain amount of experience and instrument capability.

A great trip can quickly turn into a great Nightmare

Pace

[IO540]

I disagree with the fact that ATC refuse a VFR transit in a controlled zone just for the fun of it. Has it happened to you many times ? And where ?I gave example(s).

The UK is on the whole OK, but there are many areas abroad where transit is by default, or always, not granted. Italy is one of the worst, where they take the pi** out of pilots. I had a clearance A-B-C, got handed over around B and the next unit told me to stay out of CAS :ugh: I recall I was already in CAS and had to "escape" it pretty fast, on a 90 degree track taking me way out to sea. This is after very careful readbacks - necessary because many ATCOs there speak such badly accented English that one often cannot make them out.

Belgium is the opposite, with ready transits of their busy Class C (Brussells Departures). Croatia seems unbothered by airspace class (nice), Montenegro/Albania = "no chance". France is normally easy. Switzerland seems to be no-go in its Class C but Austria seems OK.

Luckily I don't get a chance to test this nonsense anymore as I got the IR over 2 years ago and have almost never flown VFR (abroad) since.

There are techniques which seem to deliver more success e.g. asking firmly for a route which is a string of VORs or airway intersections sounds a lot better than a string of VRPs.

[Quarto]

Does anyone have a list of places that do sea survival courses. Somewhere in Scotland would be good. I had shot of the helicopter dunker at RNAS Yeovilton that was quite interesting but it has been seven years and I wouldn't mind having another go somewhere.

Thanks,
Quarto

[flyme273]

Grahama,

I concur with "Pace" on this one.

I've flown this route ferrying a twin (+tanks) and its a lot of water to cross and weather changes fast.

Some years ago a Dutch lady flew her Grumman AA5 to Iceland. She would not be persuded otherwise. First year she made it, second year the headwinds were a shade stronger and she ran out of fuel and crashed into the water a few miles short. She was in a dry suit and swam to shore. Her co-pilot narrowly made it.

If you decide to go for it, measure the Robin's fuel burn and oil requirements. Add extra headwind component. Diversion is Faroe, however Faroe can suffer fog, etc. Make sure you can get in there on instruments. Also carry the instrument charts for Iceland.

For survival you have got to get into the dingy with the EPIRB+gps. Remember its outside heli range, so survival is up to you. Expect at least 24 hrs for a ship rescue.http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/icon15.gif

For single engine low speed aircraft your'll be pushing your luck.

Why not try the fjords of Norway?

flyme

[Brooklands]

graham,

A read of Nigel's blog (http://www.polestaraviation.com/?page_id=3) of his trip in his TB20 to the US via Iceland a few years ago is a worthwhile read.

Added 30/6/2008
Apologies to Nigel (aka 2Donkeys) for getting his name wrong in my original posting, and thanks to Rustle for pointing out my error.

Brooklands

[spittingimage]

I flew VFR from Hofn (SE Iceland) to Wick in a Cirrus SR20 almost entirely at 1500 ft a couple of years ago. So it is quite possible.

Snags ? Helps if you have an autopilot or you will really have to avoid getting distracted from basics. Poor comms unless you can get some kind soul at the high flight levels to relay. Iceland ATC was reluctant at first until I suggested I would report at the normal reporting points applicable to IFR flight. GPS essential therefore.

By the way, Hofn is now no longer an airport of entry/departure for Iceland. Nearest equivalent is Egillstadir (BIEG). Further from UK of course. Suggest land in normal office hours or you will be gouged for a lot of Icelandic kronur for customs attendance - US$ 220 if I remember correctly.

Never been to Vagar but it has a fearsome reputation. Check weather very carefully indeed because alternates are practically non-existent.

SI

[rustle]

A read of Tomithy's blog (http://www.polestaraviation.com/?page_id=3) of his trip in his TB20 to the US via Iceland a few years ago is a worthwhile read.

Brooklands
That wasn't Timothy (or Tomithy ;)), it was Nigel.

Timothy's blog is HERE (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=42932) and is also well worth a read...

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Note::::

This is only my personal opinion, but having flown that route at low level in a twin engine airplane I would not fly it single engine even if you gave me the airplane when the trip was over.

That of course is only my feelings on this subject, I would rather be a live chicken than a dead duck. :(

[VFE]

I too am with Chuck on this one.

The enjoyment behind these sorts of flying 'adventures' eludes me completely as the risks involved are far higher than that which I personally would deem acceptable. Given the posters licence and (lack of) ratings, combined with the single engined aspect, this proposed flight plan has disaster written all over it.

Why bother?

VFE.