a bit of help please

[wardy20]

firstly, i HAVE looked at the thread "so you wanna be a........." but haven't found an answer i want. I'm 24 from Ireland with 0 hours and had planned on going to bristow for the combined jaa/faa cpl course but there's a 2 year waitin list. any recommendations on other schools with as good a reputation as bristow? Oz, Nz, Canada etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Wardy.

[Pandalet]

No doubt, this will be the first of many, BUT:

Where do you want to work? JAA-land? Then you need a JAA license. Outside of JAA-land, the only place doing them appears to be Bristows. So you can probably rule out Canada, Oz, NZ, SA, etc, unless you're prepared to go through the pain of converting a foreign license.

[Whirlygig]

There are other schools with as good, if not better, reputations than Bristows but they are all in JAA land and therefore more expensive.

However, I believe there is a school in Australia that will shortly be getting JAA authorisation; I can't remember its name but it was advertising on Pprune recently.

Cheers

Whirls

[wardy20]

JAA-land is where I want to end up eventually. According to a school in SA, if i get an ICAO licence, I can get a verification for up to one year in JAA-land. I have talked to a few in NZ like Wanaka Helicopters,Helipro and Nelson Aviation College. I just haven't come across anyone that has trained there with the aim of getting a JAA. anyhoo, thanks for the info lads. Wardy


PS: Pandalet, is it really much grief converting?

[Whirlygig]

Firstly, you need to to download LASORS from the CAA website - use google. This will tell you all about converting licences. Yes, it can be grief which is why I, and probably Pandalet, couldn't be bothered going abroad. It could cost just as much to go abroad and convert instead of just doing the training in your own country in the first places.

Secondly, you appear to be talking of the integrated training route; have you considered modular?

Cheers

Whirls





PS - both of us are lasses!!!

[windowseatplease]

One year verifications are EXTREMELY rare and not offered to to low-time pilots with just piston experience.

If you want a JAA licence PLEASE train at a JAA school. "Converting" licences is often a painful/expensive process.

I suggest doing your PPL in the UK, then seeing how you feel about dropping a further £50,000 on it as a career.

And remember... if you want to work as a helicopter pilot in any country, you need the correct licence, often flight experience, AND.... a work visa FOR THAT COUNTRY.

Please don't just google "helicopter schools" and then take a taxi to Gatwick, as an extraordinary number of people seem to do. Training as a helicopter pilot is not like taking a year off to travel around Australia. Do a LOT of research.

[darrenphughes]

Hey Wardy,

Did you get the PM I sent you the other day? What windowseatplease said about converting from ICAO to JAA being a pain in the arse is very true. I should know, I've spent the last 6 months studying the crap, and that was after me getting all my FAA ratings.

[Phil77]

windowseatplease: I beg to differ; Its not necessary MORE expensive to convert than a straight UK licence. A PPL in the UK is at the very least how much? minimum of GBP 9300? ...let's use that amount (25 dual/10 solo no groundschool):
GBP 9300 = USD 18,200
Around the corner here on the US Eastcoast you'll get an FAA PPL for the (very) minimum of USD 9,650 (20 dual/15 solo).
That gives you a few thousand bucks to play with.
(btw. in germany it cost next to nothing to convert it to a JAA PPL - just paperwork and a radio licence).

darrenphughes: What do you think my friends did at Bristow Academy (back than known as Helicopter Adventures)? they also sat in JAA groundschool for the better part of a year - but they did it in florida! So there's your pain in the arse too!


All I'm trying to say is that I've seen both sides: I had the same problem like Wardy, no vacancies - so I just did the FAA course with the intend to convert later but ended up staying here (no, I didn't marry an american ;)), now flying not only medium twins but also jets.
Some of my friends (most of 'em are now back in europe or anywhere else in the world) did the full blown combined course - most of 'em are now in the North Sea or offshore elsewhere.
Others went down the same path like I did, but they actually did the conversion - sure a pain in the butt, but not more difficult than the other way around. Some even said the IR was a peace of cake after they've flown IFR in the US.

Also you might want to consider the experience going someplace else in the world than your small island (just a slight pun intended ;)) and meet people from all over the world - I wouldn't want to miss that experience, but that's just me!

Good luck whatever you decide to do!

[darrenphughes]

So Phil, if you had to do it all again and you were definitely heading back to Europe after your training, what route would you go?

[Whirlygig]

One advantage of training in the country in which you finally wish to work, is that you build contacts. You do your PPL somewhere, CPL elsewhere, FI and IR at other places, each time meeting other pilots and operators. Not a quantifiable thing; intangible in cost terms.

Cheers

Whirls

[windowseatplease]

All I'm saying is do the research. I was at HAI a few years ago and I was astonished by the number of people doing FAA CPL licences who didn't even know you couldn't use them in the UK. There was even quite a few people who had signed up for entire PPL/CPL/IR courses who had never even been in a helicopter before (not ever a trial lesson). Amazing.

I would say 20-30% of people seemed to give it very little research and you could tell they were the ones who were not going to ever make a living as a pilot. ie - Do the FAA licences, come back to the UK $50,000 lighter, and go back to their old job.

Yes, there are ways to stay in the USA and work, but apart from marrying, not many at all.

Converting a PPL may be easier in some countries, but a CPL/IR/FI is another matter entirely. Ask anyone who has "converted" a FAA IR to a JAA one.

[Phil77]

Yes, you both have your points...
Whirls: the funny thing is, that right out of flight school I have met (and made connections) people from all over europe (last time I checked it was more than 50 people I'm still more or less in contact with) but only two or three americans :uhoh:. But granted, they are probably not (yet) as influential than the guys you meet in the UK.

windowseatplease:
yea, very good point actually: DO YOUR RESEARCH! and make sure your budget isn't too tight! lots of people I heard of ran out of money quick!
...although I haven't heard of guys beeing so naive thinking they could easily transfer your licences when they already started to fly.
Btw. my introductory lesson was round-about 24 years before I went to Florida - I was 4! :}
I was just lucky to get the visa's (together with my wife) in the US - I never planned to stay. And yes its really hard to get a work permit!

darrenphughes:
I had no choice; I had to leave my (own) company at that point or never, so there was no option to wait for a spot in the JAA class.
Money was never budgeted for a JAA course in europe so it was a no-brainer.
In hindsight, yes I would do it again!
A friend of mine who went down the same route like I did, took the exams after his J-1 was expired, got the IR, flew in the north sea for about a year and is now on a Police EC-135. So it definately works that way!
´
I gotta go, but maybe later I'll find my spreadsheet with the actual cost I had till now (I was pretty much on time).

[Whirlygig]

So it definately works that way!
Er ...no; it worked for one person.

Cheers

Whirls

[Heliringer]

Heliwest in Western Australia, were advertising on here for a JAA CFI so I guess you could do a JAA license with them.

[MrEdd]

If im not wrong so will hillsboro (i belive the name is) in USA also do JAA training on J-1, perhaps a option?

[Whirlygig]

Nothing on Hillsboro's website about JAA training; only FAA.

Cheers

Whirls

[Phil77]

The only thing nobody explained to me yet is WHY would it be more expensive?
I mean with the US Dollar beeing so weak these days, it should be roughly equal (because of a few hour differences training) if not alot cheaper!?

Could somebody please back it up with some good old math?

Whilrs: I could name at least 5 people that did the transition (successfully) and who are working in JAA land now - granted, people who have failed usually don't advertise it later; I do know of two who didn't make it anyway. On the other hand I've heard of at least two other guys who couldn't get a job with the full blown JAA course completed. After all you still will be interviewed and need to pass a simulator checkride!
Bottomline: it is "possible" - like that term better?`;)


(I'm embarrassed :ooh:, I should have read over the stuff I wrote in my post last night before posting so many spelling mistakes and needless words...)

[Whirlygig]

Yes Phil77, I do prefer the word "possible" rather than "definitely". I can't provide any maths because I didn't do "those sums"; however, I have heard a lot of anecdotal evidence from instructors converting FAA students to JAA and, in a lot of cases, it's been more than "a few hours". In a few cases, I've heard guys taking nearly the whole JAA course anyway!!! These instructors have no reason to sell JAA to me as going to the States to train was not an option (well, it was, but one I discounted pretty quickly for personal reasons); so, no axes to grind there.

Cheers

Whirls

[Phil77]

Yea, no axes here either, just wanted to know why people advertising one way before the other by claiming to know its "better" that way (please realise, I never said that the way I did it was the better one, I just explained that it worked for me and others and I'm glad I did it).

Oh and most certainly there are a lot of bad schools around (everywhere in the world) maybe thats where your instructor friends students came from? But if I remember right, we where talking about Bristow here; you can be sure that the quality of training is top notch, also on the FAA side.

[windowseatplease]

The trouble with "converting" licences is that it's often at the schools or the instructors discretion how much training you need. Every instructor/school/country wants things done THEIR way.

The local area will be different, the radio calls will definitely be different, the maneuvers will be taught in a different way. Also some schools in the UK had an VERY anti-FAA/foreign licence attitude and if you turn up with your licence and saying "LASORS says I only need 'training as necessary' and the skills test" the school often thinks "we'll show this guy that things are done different here", and you're in for 10 hours flying at £300 per hour. That's wiped out any savings you made going abroad to begin with.

Speaking as a person who has converted a CPL, FI, AND a IR from the FAA system to JAA, I can say it ALWAYS takes more time than you think.

My advice, when heading abroad for training, do thorough research and add 30%-40% onto any "converting costs" you have budgeted for.

Don't say I didn't warn you...

[Phil77]

now you got me curious... ;)

I found a uk flightschool quoting £70,000 ($136,000) all the way to FI license; here you pay roundabout £27,300 ($53,000) that leaves £46,500 ($90,550) for travel, housing (you would have to move out of mama's house ;) )...
I'd say £12,800 ($25,000) should be plenty; so you have £33,700 ($65,500) left to fly in the UK - hat is more than 100 hours @ £330!
And as a bonus you're DUAL RATED too!!!

In a 100 hours I can teach every FAA moron (beeing one myself) the differences!

No bad blood here, I'm just hanging out at the pool and nothing better to do!

Cheers, Philip

[darrenphughes]

Phil,
Your figures are very similar to what I had worked out for myself by doing my training in Ireland. I think I had figured it was gonna cost about 105K Euro by the time I got to FI. I think the schools in the UK were gonna be a little cheaper but not by much. That's why I ended up in Fresno, CA doing the FAA thing, and now I'm in the middle of the conversion.

[ulsterflyer]

Any advances on £12,800 for FAA-JAA conversion? How long would it take to convert an FAA ATPL (based on a pilot with a good aptitude and ability to pick things up quickly and training at a decent school)?

[wardy20]

Just got in to bristow on a cancellation for the FAA pro pilot course!At least its a start. :ok: I know it'll mean doing conversions but I don't care. I just wanna fly

[Whirlygig]

I think it depends on how many hours you have on an FAA ATP. I can't remember the exact number (comparatively high I think) but if you have more than this, then you can be exempt the classroom element of the ground school so the theory side would only cost 13/14 exams x £63. If you're not exempt the classroom study, then add about another £1,700 on for the course plus accommodation and/or travel expenses.

How many types do you have on your FAA ATP as each of these would have to be converted?

A UK JAA ATPL includes an instrument rating. Is this conversion also included in your £12,800? If so, then I'd bite their hands off at that price for a full conversion; CPL/IR/type ratings for £10k (after the groundschool) is very good indeed.

Cheers

Whirls

[Phil77]

Since you are certainly aware that there is no type rating necessary to fly aircraft under 12,500 lbs in the US, you could answer the question yourself: 0
...and mostly you don't need a ATPL here - and if you do need one for you IFR job, you'll need the 1,200 hours FIRST ("frozen" not possible)

However a fancy type rating in a Schweizer or R22 shouldn't be a big deal once you have flown it a few hours. I'm not sure if you could even go to Bristow and just get that type rating over with.


Again, its not more complicated to FLY "european style" its just that everybody has to learn almost how to BUILD an aircraft or how to navigate around the world without a GPS (for a helicopter ATPL!) first (I got the Bristol.gs study material already).
Ever thought about how it is possible that so many Jets and Airlines land in europe every day with the same accident rate?

No bad blood, but I try to keep my sarkasm going :E! (Americans unfortunately mostly don't understand it) I think if europe would get over the requirements to join their old boys club and the faa would require a bit more knowledge on systems and components we would do alot better!


...one last thing that occured to me regarding my calculations from earlier: disregard the cost of living, first of all you have to eat and sleep in the uk too and its even cheaper to live here!
So substracting travel you have still £40,000 left for type ratings and still be dual rated and probably with alot more hours through flight instructing too!

[darrenphughes]

Wardy, Congrats on getting the spot.

Phil, I couldn't agree more with your last post.

[Whirlygig]

Since you are certainly aware that there is no type rating necessary to fly aircraft under 12,500 lbs in the US, you could answer the question yourself: 0If you are answering Ulsterflyer's question which was converting FAA to JAA, then whichever types he or she flies in the US will have to have a type rating in JAA land; therefore, the cost could be substantial unless the ratings were allowed to lapse of course.

With regards to cost of living, the accommodation premise only applies if one is renting in the UK AND is in a position to give up the lease on that property whilst abroad.

Cheers

Whirls

[eurocopter beans]

Wardy,

You thought about trying for an air corps cadetship?

[Trans Lift]

Wardy, nice one on getting a spot at Bristow. I definitely think you made a good choice to come here. I did the JAA integrated last year and then followed on with all the FAA stuff. The 2 year visa (if thats what you got) should allow you plenty of time to get a job here, at Bristow if you keep the head down and get on well, or somewhere else in the states. I did my PPL in Ireland and I find the level of professionalism much higher here. If you get a job here at BA, you might even get on the JAA side instructing, even if your FAA, they do a conversion course at the schools expense.When are you starting? I'll keep an eye out for ya, being a fellow culchie and all, not too far from your own doorstep either!!:ok:

[Miles]

Just a quick note on anyone thinking of coming to Aus, there is no doubt that this is a great place to fly (the lifestyle isnt too bad either :E). HOWEVER, this is not the place to learn if you want to return to JAA land. It is cheaper to gain the basic CPL but the flying is completely different (much the same as South Africa).

Oh, you have to factor in the fact that as we are south of the equator, our blades rotate the other way ;)

[kpd]

eurocopter beans may be wrong but I think Air Corps have spent so much on equipment that not recruiting this year.

[wardy20]

Cheers TransLift,I'm starting in November.Getting a few hours in a 300cbi sorted here before I go, and got my hands on a few books. Just trying to get a headstart. Delighted to hear there's another roaster gonna be over there!

Eurocopter Beans, I was going for the Air Corps this January past.Even got a tour of the place by a pilot I know up there. But they changed the enrollment procedure. So now, instead of applying for the Air Corps, you have to do a 2 year Cadetship and then pick what you want to do. It just means you're an officer when you start flying. I couldnt wait that long.

[eurocopter beans]

I understand, enjoy your training, might have a pint in the pier with you before you head off!!

[wardy20]

Up in harrisons now bucko. The pints are like mothers milk!

[eurocopter beans]

that they are, too long of a walk for them though. If i dont see you before you head off...best of luck.

[wardy20]

I'm sure a lift could be arranged! besides, yee guys not supposed to be fit??? Cheers anyways young fella