View Full Version : Deham crash yesterday
mickjoebill
11th Jun 2008, 09:31
Denham, yesterday Cirrus vs trees at end of runway, no injuries, quite lucky?
Mickjoebill
360BakTrak
11th Jun 2008, 10:58
Quite a hefty bounce followed by substantial prop strike & attempted go-around allegedly. That is 5th hand info though. Glad they are all OK.:eek:
Will Hung
11th Jun 2008, 11:27
24 or 06 ?
stickandrudderman
11th Jun 2008, 16:15
06.
Failed go-around.
Two occupants both very lucky to escape with bruising.
Aicraft written off in trees some 200m beyond the threshold.
A real shame for TAA as it was their first a/c.:(
Lurking123
11th Jun 2008, 16:23
22 or 20? I only ask as a 22 should be able to climbout like the Starship Enterprise. Either that or a very very very late go around from RW06.
ShyTorque
11th Jun 2008, 16:54
The Enterprise never tried to go around after bending its prop, though. :p
Lurking123
11th Jun 2008, 17:18
What, Scotty having his tea break at the time?:D
Bravo73
11th Jun 2008, 20:00
FYI, the aircraft in question is currently being loaded onto a low-loader. :{
wsmempson
11th Jun 2008, 21:09
IMAGE_006.jpg
A relatively experienced pilot arrived on 06, too high and too hot, decided that he was GOING TO LAND, bounced up the runway (bending the prop and shock loading the engine) and then decided to go around. If he hadn't accidentally retracted the flaps, he might have got away with it...
I'm not going to scoff, as I suspect that there is an element of "there but for the grace of god, go all of us....". No-one injured thankfully - but the aircraft was irredeemably trashed.:sad:
mark sicknote
12th Jun 2008, 00:50
Saw the same thing this weekend. Student landing a 152 way too hot, got the resultant balloon, pitched forward and the oscillation got him a partially collapsed oleo, destroyed wheel hub and a prop strike...he then went around.
Don't know what students are being taught these days...at my old school there appear to be more go-arounds than full stops. Why anyone with plenty of available runway and a prop strike would attempt to depart and fly the circuit again beggars belief.
On landing the two gentlemen involved were unable to keep the ac on course due to the broken wheel / oleo and ended up flat-spotting the main tyres as well in their haste to stop.
The school hauled the pair in for a "chat" , though whose fault REALLY is this incident?
Best,
Sicknote:ok:
aviate1138
12th Jun 2008, 06:59
The Cirrus pilot didn't previously fly a Bristol Blenheim did he?
wsmempson
12th Jun 2008, 07:03
"The Cirrus pilot didn't previously fly a Bristol Blenheim did he?"
:}:}:}:}
very naughty...
XX621
12th Jun 2008, 08:42
Saw the same thing this weekend. Student landing a 152 way too hot
I frequently watch in amazement at, literally, one PA28 after another stonking into the 800m at my base field (not Denhham I might add) WAY too fast for the conditions, touching down after at least half of the asphalt has passed under the wheels. These are not, by a long chalk, all students either.
I would be tempted to wonder what exactly is being taught these days in relation to approach speed management, or why are people flying the final approach so fast for the conditions? Is it a rigid "I must fly the final at XXknots ALL the time" philosophy?
italianjon
12th Jun 2008, 11:59
I think it is an unfortuate side effect of the high fuel prices we are seeing resulting is less flying time and therefore currency.
I notice in myself that if I haven't been able to fly for a while... anything close to a month or more... my polish has disappeared. In these circumstances it is VITAL to remember that we're not quite as good as we were and I tend to add 5 or 10 knots to my final speed to give me a little more energy. This does result in the final rollout being longer that normal and a touchdown point further down. Again the key is to recognise this and select a longer runway.
If a longer runway is not an option I will often fly on my own, over a sparse area and do some slow flying, bringing the aircraft back to the buffet etc. to re familiarise myself with the characteristics at those slow speeds.
I'm not one of the safety brigade who think that if you don't fly every week you're not safe and should fly with an instructor...
I believe that we just have to recognise that if we fly less we need to be a little more respectful of what we're doing; and always make an approach with a go-around in mind... but ensure that we are still enjoying what we are doing. At PPL level we're recreational flying - let's not lose sight of that!
I find pilots tend to add 10kn to the approach for “the wife and kids”. This and a terror of flying slowly or practicing stalls without 4000ft and an instructor. Currency my be an issue in some cases, but most of the pilots come in too quick all the time.
Rod1
beatnik
12th Jun 2008, 12:47
Italianjon said: "I notice in myself that if I haven't been able to fly for a while... anything close to a month or more... my polish has disappeared. "
Aaaaaaaahh-ha - polish as in "rub-a-dub-shine". Not as in polish the language. You know I spent at least a full minute wondering why Italianjon needed Polish in order to land a plane :rolleyes:
flyboy 69
14th Jun 2008, 20:03
real shame but in the right plane if your going to have a crash!
baronzee
18th Jun 2008, 20:30
Hey
I fly from Denham, I did my PPL there, and it is a runway which demands respect, I was always taught to get the approach speed correct !!! and be ready to do a go around if your speed is not spot on !!
From what I heard from the OPS staff, the pilot apparently trained there ?!??, his speed / height "was way... way.... way.. off", and he failed to initiate a go around as taught.
He is lucky to be in one piece, the question remains is that the local's will no doubt complain about this, which may have some bad consequences for people who fly from their.
The STAFF at Denham are P*****D to put it tactfully.
XL319
18th Jun 2008, 22:56
Hey we don't know the full facts yet. Give the guys a break and be thankful that they are still alive.
Pilot error or not we should be glad they are still alive and if it is pilot error, put it down to some very steep learning curve.
This thread is full of rumours and hearsay, we should be offering some advice and comfort in these circumstances not pinning blame just yet (thats the AAIB's job).
XL out
ShyTorque
18th Jun 2008, 23:05
Actually, it's NOT the AAIB's job to apportion blame.
Ok then...
Advice: Do not apply forward pressure to the control column if you bounce - go around!!
Comfort: There, there.
VFE.
stickandrudderman
19th Jun 2008, 17:55
VFE, you're not my Dad are you?
1800ed
20th Jun 2008, 16:29
Anyone know the registration of the Cirrus involved in this incident? Hope it wasn't N147LD or N147GT as I fly in those aircraft with my father quite often...
wsmempson
20th Jun 2008, 17:14
No, it was one of the G-Reg ones with TAA.
eugegall
20th Jun 2008, 19:27
the plane is parked at fairoaks. the people who recovered it have stored it here.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b315/eugeclio172/Photo0030.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b315/eugeclio172/Photo0029.jpg
1800ed
21st Jun 2008, 15:19
Used to look like this:
http://www.fotoflight.co.uk/images/zoom/WOPXEU/viewsize/IMG_0806.JPG
VFE, you're not my Dad are you?I am a flying instructor, not the milkman. :} ;) VFE.
1800ed
21st Jun 2008, 16:21
http://www.buckinghamshireadvertiser.co.uk/archives/2008/06/plane_crashes_i.html
wsmempson
21st Jun 2008, 16:22
Having spoken to the people at the field, the pilot and his Pax walked away unscathed and the pilot himself was the 1st to put his hands up and say that in retrospect, he couldn't understand why he hadn't chosen to go around, given the 'picture' obviously wasn't right.
The way the circuit seems to work at Denham is that, unless you're training and in the circuit, you're encouraged to go back out of the circuit and re-enter from Maple X or Chalfont st Giles. This makes a go-around a 15 minute exercise.
If you are renting an a/c at £200p/h, I can see the temptation to try and make a fist of an imperfect landing, rather than spending an extra £50 on a go-around.
An unfortunate by-product of rising fuel prices, perhaps?
1800ed
21st Jun 2008, 16:58
There's an artical about it on the Buckinghamshire Advertiser website. I don't think i'm allowed to post links as I haven't been a member on here for long enough...
wsmempson
21st Jun 2008, 17:20
An extract from the article in the Buck Advertiser;
"The plane came to the ground a mere 400 yards from the Wyatts Covert caravan site, which consists of 80 homes and houses an estimated 150 people.
A resident of the site, who asked not to be named, said: "The plane came down very close to these houses. It is really worrying and frightening that if it had been slightly closer it could easily have crashed into these houses and a lot of people could have been killed.
"The planes at the aerodrome should keep to their flight paths and make completely sure that they are getting their landings right, because if they get it wrong here there is more than just the pilot's life at risk."
Other than the usual journalistic "aircraft plummeting into primary school full of puppies" schtick, one has to question the sanity of this particular resident...:uhoh:
1800ed
21st Jun 2008, 17:30
I think that this part is quite funny:
"The planes at the aerodrome should keep to their flight paths and make completely sure that they are getting their landings right, because if they get it wrong here there is more than just the pilot's life at risk."
It's almost like the witness thinks that pilots make errors on purpose for fun :ugh:
007helicopter
21st Jun 2008, 18:34
Did my training in - G-TAAA, imagine TAA are not best pleased but at least the guys are ok, must be quite a responsibility running a flight school and even worse if people injured.
frontlefthamster
21st Jun 2008, 19:37
007, you might like to put that question to a bloke from Blackpool if you ever bump into him...
And to italianjon, I ask, if you...
believe that we just have to recognise that if we fly less we need to be a little more respectful of what we're doing
then may I enquire where I can go to be thoroughly trained in 'being a little more respectful of what I'm doing'?
I'm no fan at all of the 'experience = ability' brigade, but neither can I accept the proposal of safeguards which are patently unworkable.
It is a sad fact in life that experience is often the result of bad decisions.
VFE.
stickandrudderman
21st Jun 2008, 20:01
The way the circuit seems to work at Denham is that, unless you're training and in the circuit, you're encouraged to go back out of the circuit and re-enter from Maple X or Chalfont st Giles. This makes a go-around a 15 minute exercise.
Nonsense.
There's a gravel pit which clearly defines the northern boundary of the circuit pattern.
The suggestion that any pilot's first thought when making a mess of an approach would be "I don't want to spend any more money", is also nonsense.
John & Wendy are very upset at loosing their "baby", their first Cirrus, but the pilot concerned has learnt his lesson and will be a better pilot for it.
I'm told that he was even permitted to rent TAA's other 20 a few days later, after a check ride of course.
Any pilot who claims that this won't ever happen to him is in for a rude awakening!
(No, I don't know the pilot concerned, but I am a customer of TAA)
Lurking123
21st Jun 2008, 20:34
I've cocked-up at Denham on one or two occasions. It isn't a difficult airfield but it can bite very quickly if you haven't got a firm plan. I've sat Northside and watched a high number of aircraft approach 'hot', hearing to the squeal of tyres as pilots step on the pedals. To me, it is the sort of airfield where you fly the POH speeds, no more. Obviously, I haven't a clue whether speed was actually an issue in this incident so my comments are not specific.
Can I just ask one question:Where in the name of Hades does this term "hot" come from and what does it mean????VFE.
S-Works
22nd Jun 2008, 15:08
Come on VFE, have you never had a student come down the slot like a balistic missile with no hope of getting the landing anywhere in the aerodrome?
Hot is the term used to indicate a warhead is live on a missile, ballistic missile approach, hence hot......
;)
kwachon
22nd Jun 2008, 15:13
"Hot" was also term used when running on afterburners, as opposed to "cold" when on normal engine power. Not really applicable to a Cirrus!.
Lurking123
22nd Jun 2008, 15:40
Who is/was Hades? :}
Ah thanks Bose! I'm on the same page now, ta! Did not know that was the term for a live missle- one shall try to use it more in conversation now! :}VFE.
outlawuk
23rd Jun 2008, 17:58
When I was learning on PA-28 three years ago at Shoreham I was constantly being told to land at considerably higher than the book landing speed. Two-up I should have been taught to land at 59Kt maybe but was being trained to land at 70 with consequent bounces, balloons and general loss of my confidence that I would ever manage it. Come my first solo the CFI saw me coming in at 70 and asked what the landing speed should be. I said at this weight, 59Kt. He said "well DO IT then" (sort of what he said). The landing was great and he sent me solo immediately after.
I suspect my instructor had a fear of students stalling on final.
Dominic
live2excel
27th Jun 2008, 11:39
I flew into Denham the day after, and when I went up to pay the landing fee the FISO asked if we had seen the Cirrus in the trees on final (we were landing on 24)! I didn't see the Cirrus (must've been concentrating on the landing lol!:))
frontlefthamster
29th Jun 2008, 09:00
Amazing that people can't grasp the difference between approach speed and threshold speed...:rolleyes:
frontlefthamster
29th Jun 2008, 20:45
and also that, an injection of common sense stops the thread in its tracks...
:p
foxmoth
29th Jun 2008, 20:53
When I was learning on PA-28 three years ago at Shoreham I was constantly being told to land at considerably higher than the book landing speed. Two-up I should have been taught to land at 59Kt maybe but was being trained to land at 70 with consequent bounces, balloons and general loss of my confidence that I would ever manage it. Come my first solo the CFI saw me coming in at 70 and asked what the landing speed should be. I said at this weight, 59Kt. He said "well DO IT then" (sort of what he said). The landing was great and he sent me solo immediately after.
I suspect my instructor had a fear of students stalling on final.
Dominic
Sounds to me like the CFI needs to have a word with this instructor!:mad: