OAA - May Employment

[heli_port]

Found the following on the OAA forum:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4163185#post4163185

With the recent slate of discouraging industry news, I think it appropriate to highlight some good news. 23 OAA graduates found employment in May and 3 are with airlines that have not hired from us over the previous few years, Amsterdam Airlines, Afriqiyah Airways and Cityjet.

These have been added to our web report, but here is May's breakdown:
3 - British Airways
4 - Ryanair
1 - Air Southwest
8 - FlyBe
4 - KLM
1 - Cityjet
1 - Amsterdam Airlines
1 - Afriqiyah Airways

That is 99 for the year so far, which means we are keeping pace with last year.3 students who went to KLM were from my course. They were EPST students, and EPST set them up with KLM bridge course. Two of them are going on to the 747 and one of them has got the 777.:ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

So 3 went to some foreign airlines that would require a foreign language.

4 went to Ryanair who also take modular students (£45k Frzn ATPL) as long as they also have the ability to pay for their type ratings and won't mind spending all winter on stby as they ground half their fleet.

Flybe are recruiting so thats good news and BA will continue to take a trickle. I wonder if the lucky guy who got into Air Southwest has some connection?

The elephant in the room is: If 23 guys got jobs in May 2008 how many actually signed up to the course in May 2007?

If it was 23 then marvelous. If it was 60 then it isn't. And anyway - its May 2009 that you need to be thinking about..

WWW

[Joffyh]

I wonder if the lucky guy who got into Air Southwest has some connection?

WWW, Air Southwest have taken quite a few graduates from OAA recently, nothing to do with connections.

[Groundloop]

it was confirmed to me that OAA took on 226 people last year

Would that be intergrated only? if so, how many more were OAT modular?

[Callsign Kilo]

Over 40% of OAA cadets have went to Ryanair this year. Not sure what percentage of these are integrated, but Im willing to bet the vast majority (well everyone on my TR course at CAE ex Oxford has been integrated). Thats a debt of well over 100K each. I don´t know how they suffer it, especially when I let them know that my initial training cost 30K less!! Plus I am also informed that OAA employment stats relate to cadets who have secured employment this year, and takes no account of what year they finished their course.

[rick0]

So 3 went to some foreign airlines that would require a foreign language.

4 went to Ryanair who also take modular students (£45k Frzn ATPL) as long as they also have the ability to pay for their type ratings and won't mind spending all winter on stby as they ground half their fleet.

Flybe are recruiting so thats good news and BA will continue to take a trickle. I wonder if the lucky guy who got into Air Southwest has some connection?

The elephant in the room is: If 23 guys got jobs in May 2008 how many actually signed up to the course in May 2007?

If it was 23 then marvelous. If it was 60 then it isn't. And anyway - its May 2009 that you need to be thinking about..

WWW

They take 24 or 25 people a month I think. Doesn't always full that no. though, according to them.

[bajadj]

plus the modular courses, every couple of months about 25 on each groundschool, and about 5 go on to do the flying.

[roll_over]

The other day I was looking at their figures, 40% at Ryannair it worried me slightly! If I come out of uni,OAA then go to Ryannair, that is what 120K?:ouch:

[Callsign Kilo]

I would love to know the patter from the marketing team at OAA at the present time. It is without doubt a good marketing machine, but what are the answers to some of the more probing questions, keeping in mind the current economic climate. Or does anyone challenge them before handing over 75K +?

Mine would be,

1. Why OAA, if the majority of your cadets go to FR? My mate went modular, saved xyz, attended an FR open day and got an assessment. Surely that´s all I need to do?

2. How long will it typically take for me to gain employment when I leave OAA? I hear your employment stats relate to students who have gained employment without making reference to when they completed training at OAA? Also, what do I have to do for you to recommend me to an airline? Surely paying an extra 30K plus over the cost of a modular course gives me the chance of a job .... or does it?

3. You advertise Airline Schemes quite heavily. Why, out of the 5 companies that you claim you association with, only 2 have recruited from OAA this year? Whats that about?

4. If we do our initial training in the USA, where the currency is quite weak and the price of fuel is considerably cheaper than in Europe, why is the cost of this course so much higher?

5. You have a lot of non UK citizens at Oxford. Some of these people gain employment with various airlines back home i.e KLM, Transavia, Air Asia etc. Surely I would not get a chance of employment with these airlines. I am uncertain then of what percentage of UK or Irish national actually gain employment after leaving OAA.



IMO people should, and maybe are, asking these questions when they visit OAA and get all the ´spin.´I am not slating the school, it is regarded as one of the top FTO´s in the world today. I just think in today´s environment it is no longer a viable option to those people who a required to self-fund. And by self-fund, I MEAN self fund.

[blablabla]

but what oxford seem to be very good at is not finding any graduates jobs....and I graduated from there sometime ago and have recieved all the emails over the last 2 years or so from the careers department and not one email has ever had a credible email saying XXX Airline has contacted us for Flight Crew if your interested in being put forward for this Airline Job as you have been Airline Trained then send your details for referral. I was on a Fully Intergrated course....but what Oxford are very good at is wanting to know where you end up off your OWN BAT once leaving Oxford so then they can add this to there list of Airlines they pretend they themselves have supplied Pilots 2 which makes it look like a great place to go for training....they havent directly supplied all those pilots to those listed Airlines those guys and girls have done the hard work in securing the jobs themselves then Oxford have done the cheap trick of saying ooohh look we supplied another 4 Pilots to XXX Airline...if I disclosed to OAT the Airline I ended up at then i`m sure their name would be added to their list but as I never gave them the info then they were never able to use my success as their own Propoganda....they are a training Provider and they will train you to a good standard for your F/ATPL but they are no job finder like they pretend to be...

[wheelie my boeing]

If you don't get a job then don't blame your trainer, blame yourself. It is after all students themselves that CHOOSE to go to these schools. The point about why not going modular and saving all the money? Well... If your aspiration is Ryanair than thats great. For the people who aim higher than that (preparing to get flamed) then Integrated looks like a better choice.
To say Oxford aren't good at finding jobs for grads... Well, if that is your attitude then I am pleased you don't have one. A large amount of people train every year and expect a job straight away etc. If you aren't made of the right stuff then p*** off. Stop complaining about training companies and grow up, grow some balls and look for a job yourself. To those who go to schools like Oxford and get the best jobs (I.E. KLM or BA etc) then well done. To those of you who go to schools like Oxford and get good jobs (like ALMOST any other airline that exists) well done.
To those of you who complain that Oxford haven't found you a job; take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself whether you are actually what airlines are after. If you were determined enough you wouldn't be on Pprune but instead you would be in airlines offices banging on doors and phoning Chief Pilots. Rant over.:ugh:

[Adios]

Roll Over,

I don't think Ryanair care if you have a degree or not, so I wouldn't add that in to the cost figures.

Callsign Kilo,

A minor point, but nobody borrows £100K for flight training. They might spend that much, but a sizable chunk has to be their own cash. Not even Northern Rock would loan £100K for such an endeavour before their downfall!

[BerksFlyer]

wheelie my boeing,

You say that as if anyone who trains modular is forever summoned to fly for Ryanair and no one better. Of course thats is utter tosh. Who said that your first job has to be the airline you have aspirations to fly for?

The whole point about people going to OAA who haven't found jobs being disappointed is that OAA market as if they do go out and find people jobs. They can't wait to say that their graduates ended up at airline X, despite the fact that it could have been through no intervention by themselves.

Also using pilots who end up at KLM as an example is irrelevant because those people had been selected by EPST, who then got them the job with KLM. Nothing to do with OAA - their only involvement was the training (which of course is of a very high standard, but that isn't the point). They had nothing to do with finding them the job. But yet they use these peoples' employment numbers in their marketing.

[blablabla]

BerksFlyer....exactly right

[wheelie my boeing]

And in which part did I state "forever summoned to fly for Ryanair" then?
I was simply stating that for those people in training who want to aim higher than Ryanair then Integrated may be the best choice. BA have maintained that they will NOT hire modular students (we are talking about SSPs here). Not only that but from my experience most of those that I know who went through integrated training and didn't get a job seemed to be the people who didn't do so well on the course and didn't maintain high marks in most subjects most if not all of the time. Of course I am not saying that failing an ATPL will then mean you don't stand a chance. However, having been through the training myself and also following training met other students from different flight schools, I now have come to realise that no matter what school you go to, the grass will ALWAYS be greener on the other side for most people. Cabair students often come out not happy with certain aspects at Cabair. Same with CTC, Oxford and FTE. It's funny that most of those who complain are those without the jobs. Perhaps they aren't getting the jobs for a personality trait which is showing in their interviews etc.
All I can say is most training schools are finding it increasingly harder this year to place graduates. CTC included. In fact, many ex CTC students that I know now believe that CTC is no longer a better choice than Oxford or Cabair etc. Yet Oxford graduates consistently get jobs. Oh, and the point about EPST getting the job for the student rather than Oxford... fact is they trained at Oxford and thats what it wil say on their CV's. (Plus BA take Oxford graduates and Oxford recommend most if not all of the integrated students to BA so that IS Oxfords doing).

[heli_port]

In the lastest brochure their is one guy who went to ba and if i remember rightly he failed the IFR exam first time but got 96% second time round and he still went to BA (got a first time pass on IR)

Anyhow you pay your money and take your choice, i''ve decided this is the route to take and i'm happy with my decision :ok: (i'll be in the RHS when most are still complaining) :)

[heli_port]

Heli that can't be right then! BA won't take people unless they have first time passes on the IR


Ah i see the confusion DJ, what i meant was this person (David Fairclough, page 59 of the brochure - near the bottom) failed his IFR comms atpl exam first time round:

After around 10 days of self study it was time to complete the official jaa exams. My average was anout 88% with one fail (IFR comms at 74%)..


He did get a first time pass in his IR and went onto BA. Ba require a first time pass and not a first series pass (go onto the OAA forums and they specifiy the criteria there)

[heli_port]

update on my original post as Mike from OAA has updated his:

http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewtopic.php?t=4512

Amendments
Several people have enquired by PM or email with questions, so here is some additional info:

The number of students who commenced APPFO was identical in both 2006 and 2007 and was an increase of about 30 from 2005. Very few who started in 2007 have finished the course yet, so the 2007 and 2008 employment report mostly includes those who started in 2005 or 2006. The average monthly intake on the APPFO for those two years was 21.6 students.

Modular students are included in our reports, including 2 of the above and 25-30 during 2007 (sorry, I don't have the precise figure to hand here at home).

Not all APPFO students finish the course. The attrition due to failure is about 4-5% and we have refunded over £250,000 under the Skills Protection Plan since it started in April 2005 with AP248. An additional 2-3% drop out of their own volition and SPP does not entail a refund to those who quit. The attrition of APPFO essentially balances out within 3-5% for the inclusion of Modular graduates in the reports for statistical purposes.

It takes most students 6-12 months to find employment, with about 90% historically getting an FO position within 12 months of course completion.

A small portion of our graduates get their first job entirely on their own effort. The one who went to Afriqiyah Airways in May 2008 is an example. He is a Foreign National who was not eligible for UK employment and he was a Modular student, so he knew we would not be able to assist much with the employment search. His father is also an OAA graduate.

[Adios]

BerksFlyer,

It seems to me that it would be foolish of OAA if they didn't include EPST students in their employment report because everybody includes them in their calculations when they compare the number of students starting each month to the number of placements. If you don't take them out of the starting column, but you take them out of the jobs found column, you artificially deflate the OAA graduates' employment success rate. I doubt that all the Dutch go home for work anyway so surely OAA helps some of them find work.

At the end of the day, most wannabes desire any help their FTO can provide in putting them forward to airlines. I also suspect airline recruiters prefer to read a handful of CVs from students recommended by the FTO rather than pay for adverts and screen 5,000 CVs by hand when they only seek a small number of FOs per year. All of the UK's Integrated FTOs and most of the Modular ones seek to forge relationships with as many airlines as they can. OAA is not the only FTO that is good at this, but to say they aren't just because they didn't place every graduate that got a job or because many of their graduates choose to go to Ryanair (when anyone who attends a RYR open day has a shot of getting in) is somewhat disingenuous.

[Ollie268]

hi guys, being an "oat grad" i want to have some input!! for the record i have gone to ryanair however total cost is absolutely no-where near the £130k someone mentioned! you'd have to fail alot of IR's to accumulate that amount of debt!!
I enjoyed my time there and would make the same decision again to go there, but i really feel its down to personal choice and so no amount of slating various FTOs will determine which one is better...!
With regards to alot of us integrated guys going to RYR, well there isnt very much on the market right now (just take a look at the "wannabe" forum!) and to be honest if you can attain the money for the TR, i feel its well worth the move - but ill stop there - dont want to turn it into a RYR thread.
BA require 1st SERIES IR pass.
Getting guys jobs after training isnt Oxfords strong point but it depends on how much you try. if you sit back and just wait for emails to come in then no, you wont get much. However i got a job 2 weeks after finishing as did 10 other guys on my course (17 of us in total).
All in all your flight training is personal to you so make your own minds up before being swayed...!! :ok:

[Artie Fufkin]

djfingerscrossed:
Living costs for OAA 35k
??????

[hollingworthp]

Well the course is around 67 weeks long if memory serves, obviously some of the posters in this forum are used for £500 per week for food and accommodation (actually it's more than this as the 20 weeks accommodation in Phoenix is included in the integrated course ... but then, given the exchange rates and relative costs, I guess it is easy to spend $100 per day on food in the US??????).

Lastly - and I love this part, people always include the accommodation / food when exaggerating the OAA costs, but seem to blissfully exclude them from all other options. Obviously Modular students are able to live and eat for free during their training.

Without doubt, OAA Integrated is pretty much the most expensive route to the same license at the end of the day and in the current climate, I am sure most people are giving careful consideration to their choice of when to train and with who - especially if they are taking a bank loan to fund it.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[blablabla]

Ollie thats right it does depend on yourself how hard you try after graduating as to wether your successful in getting a flying job or not. And Oxford are of zero use in placing you once you come off the Oxford production line with a Frozen ATPL. They are however very good at pretending your job at Ryanair along with your 7 other collegues was a direct result of intervention and connections through themselves as it hopefully fills classroom courses and fills the Oxford Bank account with many more £67k payments.
ooohhh look we just placed another 7 with Ryanair O`leary contacted us directly and asked for another 7 of our graduates.

Its like the latest Nationwide bank commercials on TV.
"We use all that rubbish info just to hook you"
"Then once we have your money and you have your ATPL your on your own"

"I mean you have gotta have abit of bubbly at the shareholders meeting"

But still a great school and very good at what they do which is getting you the legal capacity to fly for an Airline just abit naughty i feel with their marketing.

[BerksFlyer]

wheelie,

I see where you're coming from but I think it's unfair to say that if you aim higher than Ryanair you go to somewhere like OAA. I ask again: Why should the airline you aspire to fly for be your first job?

Besides, there are advantages of flying for someone else before going to somewhere like BA because you would be on DEP pay rather than SSP pay. It doesn't take that long to get the hour requirements elsewhere either.

This is an honest question, I'm not trying to put down OAA graduates. What's the advantage of going to OAA then ending up flying for Ryanair when they also take modular students? Surely the advantage of these places is that you have the chance of starting somewhere better, or was it just a risk you took that unfortunately hasn't paid off?

[Tootles the Taxi]

just abit naughty i feel with their marketing.

I've looked at the website; where precisely does it claim that graduates were placed by OAA? The only claim I can find is that a number of graduates have been employed by the named airlines. All the school's do this surely?

Plus I am also informed that OAA employment stats relate to cadets who have secured employment this year, and takes no account of what year they finished their course.

That is correct. I know of a guy who was recently listed who had completed his training in 2001.

5. You have a lot of non UK citizens at Oxford. Some of these people gain employment with various airlines back home i.e KLM, Transavia, Air Asia etc. Surely I would not get a chance of employment with these airlines. I am uncertain then of what percentage of UK or Irish national actually gain employment after leaving OAA.

CK raises an interesting point. Very true that you would have a snowballs roll in hell chance of gaining employment with KLM, Transavia or Martinair but the EPST graduates all have a chance at BA, Easyjet et al and they get jobs there. Seems a little biased to me?

At the end of the day though you have to bear in mind that aviation is like all walks of life & networking is often the key to getting what you want. All the MCCI's at OAA are or have been TRI/TRE's & line pilots with a number of U.K. carriers - when you do the MCC course, these guy's will be assesing you & if you are any good might put a word in for you with a friend in the recruitment department. Sometimes, it's as basic as that.

[heli_port]

Hi guys, m8 is one of those that got a job with flybe. I have actually spoken to him and he gave me his costs (he gave up drinking for the whole course!)...

OAA course £63k
CAA fees £4.5K (i have just noticed on the website that it has gone upto 5k :eek:)
Accommodation £5k (lived in house)
Food (£20/week * 67) = £1340

~ £74K

passed everything first time, no remedial training needed and he's lost a load of weight...:p

[Boing7117]

As an ex-OAA person myself, when I joined Oxford I was encouraged that the market appeared to be recruiting quite heavily. I was also encouraged to read and hear about various airlines buying new aircraft, introducing new routes and a general feeling that a downturn was in the past and a major upturn had begun.

I didn't foresee the credit-crunch / US sub-prime lending catastrophe and the recession which has now most certainly taken hold of us here in blighty.

As Ollie268 mentioned, there isn't much going on in terms of recruitment right now and so many OAA folk as well as folk from other FTO's are likely to have bitten the bullet, spoken to their bank manager / parents / cash-happy people (or simply just withdrawn from their current account) the next sum of money to pay for the type training and join Ryanair.

BA and Flybe are the only airlines that are realistic for OAA grads to get interviews / assessments and a general sense that they might get considered through the Oxford Aviation "recommendations" system that currently exists.

One or two airlines tend to come in at a moments notice and snap up one lucky bugger, although the last time I heard of this was around April time when the successful candidate joined an airline in Vietnam.

While Oxford are keen to ensure we're all aware that they are on-target for the year, I suspect Ryanair recruitment will be the saving grace for another year of "ok" employment stats. The fact is, I don't think this is the fault of a flying school, purely, it's just one of those times that is going to be very very very difficult for people to secure a job and not because they aint good enough whether they are modular, integrated or whatever, but the jobs simply ARE NOT THERE right now.

The notion that paying a premium price should somehow entitle us to get the best job rather than joining the likes of Ryanair is a load of rubbish. Knowing what I know now, I would still have followed an integrated route and still, despite problems, have gone to Oxford. When I joined Oxford I hoped to get a job out of it. I wasn't sure who it would be with but getting the first job, the first step on the ladder was critical. I got that. Perhaps I might have achieved it doing it a different way, but I doubt I would have done it in under 2 years.

Back to the original post about the May stats - Expect to see Oxford with 178 placements by the end of the year (it's just a guess....), of which, 98 will be Ryanair.

It's going to be a tough year for all flight training students - and a real test for the FTO's to keep the morale up!

[Adios]

Heli-port,

OAA's course price only went to £63K in 2008. If your friend is already at FlyBe he would have started over a year earlier and would have paid less for the course and the CAA fees. The other figures seem about right, except food. No wonder he is thin. Expensive? Yes. Most expensive? I think FTE is a bit more now due to the exchange rate, at least if you adjust for their course not including the JOC.

[SD.]

Why swallow the OAA marketing if you intend to go FR? Personally I don't see the point in shelling out an extra 25 grand if you don't have to.

[heli_port]

Why swallow the OAA marketing if you intend to go FR? Personally I don't see the point in shelling out an extra 25 grand if you don't have to.


100% agree with you, if FR was my target i would not go to OAA; i would go modular...

[Rhodes13]

I would kindly suggest that beggars can't be choosers!

At this point in the industry you'd be lucky to be offered a job in an airline.
Heliport I think you labour under the misapprehension that RYR will take any one and every one and nothing could be further from the truth. I know for a fact that the applications rejected far far outweigh the successful applications. The barrel is looking half empty these days with BMI not recruiting, Thomson is a closed shop so is easy. Not much movement at Jet2, globespan is the same, so now you are down to RYR and flybe. The competition is getting a hell of a lot more intense now isnt it?

Contrary to popular belief the likes of BA won't be banging on your door the day you finish your training. Plenty of high time boys that would kill for a job there. I quote from a friend that had an interview recently that this year they are looking for 200 pilots and have so far interviewed 1200. So go figure out your chances from that.

The ones that get jobs are lucky and have a passion for the job not just deep pockets!

[BerksFlyer]

heli_port,

Who said their target was Ryanair?

It seems that the people going there from OAA are doing so because you can't pick and choose jobs when there simply aren't any to pick and choose from.

Don't think that by going to OAA you are automatically 'above' Ryanair. You will take whatever you can, but if it ends up that way after going to OAA, you have got to be annoyed that you could have done it a lot chepaer. But then again, no one has a crystal ball do they.

[DrJones]

I think the people who go to FR from Oxford are people who probably dont make the grade else where. I would think very few people would go to Oxford if at the end of the day they were going to land up on FR's door.

[Rhodes13]

You are having a laugh arent you Dr Jones?

I forgot where on the application for BA it tells you where to put down that you are a sky god and rocket scientist.

Pound for pound I fly a hell of a lot more challenging routes than some of the legacies, then I have twits like you come on here and say I cant make the grade any where else!

Tell me where do you fly or are you just another person that likes throwing stones in glass houses!!

[potkettleblack]

Gees here we go. Next you will be telling us that those legacy airlines are shooting illegal approaches and landing below minima at EGSS, going below MSA at EICK and losing sight of the runway trying to rush a 2nd approach after going around, overrunning runways, taxiing onto the grass etc etc. The list goes on but it becomes tiresome listing all of the mishaps that your colleagues have managed to pull off.

Whilst I am sure you are a skygod Rhodes don't be to hasty in defending your airline. Unfortunately quite a few of your fellow colleagues have seen fit to display a complete and utter lack of professionalism and airmanship.

[DrJones]

1st things I am not having a go at OAA students who land up at FR.

I am just saying that when you finished your training at OAA where was FR on your list of potential employers, because if I had gone to OAA BA would have probably been top,and FR at the bottom and a load of airlines in the middle.

[Adios]

Ryanair hired 2 OAA grads in 2005 and 6 more in 2007. Nobody starting OAA back then would have predicted that Ryanair was likely to be where they would end up.

Ryanair hired 57 OAA grads in 2007 and 41 so far in 2008. These grads would have started their OAA course in 2005 and 2006.

People considering OAA right now should be asking whether they would be happy doing the Integrated course and ending up having to pay for a Ryanair type rating on top, or funding their own type rating anywhere else for that matter. Those nearly 100 OAA grads who have gone to Ryanair recently took the jobs they could get, even it turned out to be different than where they thought they would end up.

For people like Dr. Jones to come on here saying they must be bottom feeders who can't get on elsewhere is insulting both to the individuals and to Ryanair's pilots in general. The Ts&Cs at Ryanair may not be to the liking of many pilots, but there are many good pilots at Ryanair. They've all passed the same JAA exams, flight skills tests and type rating courses that pilots everywhere else have to pass and they have met the standard.

PKB,

It would have been the Captain's that made the decisions you refer to, not brand new FOs and it has a lot more to do with the corporate culture MOL has created than the relative quality ranking those pilots came out of their FTO with. That's some pretty serious thread drift creeping in if you want to discuss what's wrong with Ryanair.

[EK4457]

Dr Jones, as far as a first post goes, priceless!

In the current climate, you get your fATPL, and you take the first offer you get. You simply cannot wait around for 18 months for an overrated 'legacy' carrier to come knocking on your door. Not because you can't 'make the grade', but because their business model is 20 years out of date, they don't make much money, don't buy many aeroplanes and don't have many jobs.

As FR are more or less the only consistent recruiter at the moment it is no surprise that most of the OAA conveyor belt end up there. All very simple economics. Nowt to do with making any 'grade'.

Do they feel a tad silly sat on a TR course having paid £30k more than they needed to? Probably. But it beats plan B. Which is twiddling your thumbs.

Who want's to sit in the RHS for London Airways for 11 years anyway?

EK

[Rhodes13]

Unfortunately quite a few of your fellow colleagues have seen fit to display a complete and utter lack of professionalism and airmanship.

And that paints a picture of the whole airline does it? Yes we have made cockups and they have rightly been published in the various media but does that paint a dangerous airline when its a tiny minority of overall movements in the year?

Im not saying I'm a sky god far from it. I go to work and learn something new everyday, but to infer we are dangerous is pushing it a bit far dont you think. I would say that 56 million pax dont agree with you and the statistics stack up quite well to prove it!

If I follow your reasoning any airline that has had an incident it dangerous even if was just one person.


Please mate point me to an airline that had never ever made a mistake and ill be the first to join it! Oh thats right they all do! But I forgot you obviously fly for one that doesnt silly me. Must be because Im a colonial.. we are a bit slower you know :ugh:
Sometimes you gotta wonder if people like you have a sick need to see a company like RYR go tits up just to say I told you so!

[DrJones]

The statement ‘making the grade’ is a figure of speech.

I am not implying that your incompetent pilots with what you are implying in your responses nor am I implying your ‘bottom feeders’ – we all started somewhere!

I’m just saying that had I gone to Oxford I would probably be disappointed if I had spent all that money and landed up at FR when I could have gone modular and spent half the money on training.

If you ignore the fact that Oxford is considered one of the best schools in the world why else do people go there and in my humble opinion it’s the relationship they have with the airlines.

Obviously some of your peers have got job offers from the legacy airlines – they made the grade because they got in and you did not – and the guys/girls that got in it probably was not all down to their flying skills, it was probably because they had other attributes to offer as well.

Maybe my choice of words is not the greatest I am not here to offend you!!

[EK4457]

Dr Jones - no offence taken. ;)

You would not find me within a mile of OAA's (over priced) facilities. Like I say, there are a lot of OAA grads sat on TR courses feeling a like a christmas turkey with all the trimmings.

My point is that it is due to what's available rather than their ability.

EK

[heli_port]

Berk i am enrolled on a OAA course starting at the end of the year. Should the last phase of the etihad cadet program not work out i shall attend OAA. I certainly won't pay for my tr and hence will not work for FR, if this means going back to my old job and flying at weekends thats exactly what i will do.

Berk by attending OAA i am above FR, if you don't like this statement well tough! get over it :}

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The only people who think OAA are one of the finest pilot training schools in the world are those that have believed the marketing. They are OK. For the money I'd go elsewhere myself.

The worlds most profitable airline is Ryanair and they've never had a hull loss or killed anyone. I don't like them personally but their record is their record. Their incidents are pretty similar to others.

As a new <500hrs pilot you will take any job you can get if you can get one. You don't have preferred airlines, any discretion or choice. You have massive debt and need a job last week flying anything for anyone.

If you think OOA are skygods and RYR is a rubbish first job then, frankly, you are an idiot embarrassing your future self in public on the web.


WWW

[heli_port]

As a new <500hrs pilot you will take any job you can get if you can get one. You don't have preferred airlines, any discretion or choice. You have massive debt and need a job last week flying anything for anyone.

If you think OOA are skygods and RYR is a rubbish first job then, frankly, you are an idiot embarrassing your future self in public on the webVery harsh WWW i indeed think OAA are good certainly better than most but not the skygods gift. I think RYR are great but i will not work for them quite simply because i don't want to pay for my TR out of my own pocket. If they bonded you or something i'll happily jump on board.

I won't have any massive debt. I have been very supportive of your posts WWW but calling me an idiot is out of order and i certainly won't go down to your level. :yuk:

[Adios]

Well said WWW particularly the last line. I don't think any FTO, anywhere are SkyGods. The RAF are pretty amazing, but any commercial FTO could also be with that budget! I also don't think you called Heli-port an idiot. He is not avoiding RYR because he thinks they're rubbish, rather because he doesn't want to pay for a TR.

The way I see it, anyone who trains up to fATPL needs to either have a way to fund a TR, or a way to fund an FI rating, or a way to fund 50 hours a year for currency as well as ME and IR renewals for several years. An FI rating is about 40% of a jet TR (except Ryanair's expensive one). 50 hours per annum and ME/IR renewals could equal the cost of a TR in a 3 years and the cost of an FI rating in less than two years.

I'd buy my own TR in a heart beat if I had a job offer, as it's only about £10K more than the next best option, but would get me significantly faster to the RHS and better pay than a newbie FI is likely to make. Barring such an offer, I'd start the FI rating about six months after finishing the fATPL if I didn't get an FO job. I wouldn't start the fATPL without the funds or leverage to do an SSTR.

[EK4457]

WWW - totally agree.

As I said earlier, you get qualified, then you take the best/first offer to come along. To discount one of the worlds most profitable airlines with one of the newest fleets before you have even started your groundschool is either snobbery, naievity or both.

Out of interest, there is a very strange contradiction that eminates from some in the integrated camp. heli_port, perhaps you could explain this:

You are quite happy to spend (at the very least) an extra £30,000 on an integrated course compared to modular. Presumably because their 'contacts' can get you a job with London Airways or some such nonsense.

Yet, you find the idea of spending £21,000 on a type rating utterly immoral and detrimental to the industry.

Surely, what you find wrong with the extra £21,000 is also just as applicable to the £30,000 that you wasted?

I'm sure there is a plausible explaination. :confused:

To me, the only difference is that you actually get somthing for the money when you buy a type rating.

The fact is, if you go modular and then FR, you are still finacially streets ahead of an integrated student who is bonded to a 'legacy' carrier (which has only happened 11 times this year).

EK

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My God! I wondered when someone would notice that. Its taken all year - if things weren't so bleak I'd award you a prize.

A Modular Frzn ATPL then blow the saving on a 737 rating to get into Ryan. Then 18 months later you've got an UNFROZEN ATPL, 1500hrs and a current jet airline type rating. The world, and I mean the world, is your oyster. Go and spend your 20's in Tahiti or Vietnam or some such exotic location where you can live for 10 pence and the schools and culture matter little to a hard partying 20 something who will have enough hours for a command in a few short years.

By the time you feel like settling down the West will just be crawling its way out of its severe recession and you can wait for a job in the desireable airline or base.

As a plan it beats the hell out of £78k for an exceedingly slim chance of getting a job at the wrong end of the shorthaul lifestyle at Thiefrow.

But you can't actually tell people this. They don't believe you.


WWW