Radar Info Service

[XX621]

If I am working a LARS, and want to climb through cloud enroute (when I have renewed my IMC that is) and the LARS unit isn't busy...is it likely they will give me one?

I am have heard from a number of sources that LARS units are becoming less and less likely to provide RIS\RAS to PPLs unless there is a good reason to.

Just wanted to put the feelers out on this one and see what people think/have experienced themselves.

Cheers.

[Rod1]

If you tell them you will be entering IMC in x min, your chances of getting a service are very good. Most LARS services are only available 9 – 5 Mon – Friday ish.

Rod1

[dont overfil]

Waddington is one of the few that are open at the weekend but even they close for 30mins at lunchtime.
I had to ask East Midlands during this time for a service at the weekend. The controller made it clear that he could have done without the extra work. The last bit of my trip south I had to do without.

[tom_ace]

I've usually found the military very willing to give one, it's very handy and a lot better than flight information, especially if the weathers a bit iffy

[bookworm]

I am have heard from a number of sources that LARS units are becoming less and less likely to provide RIS\RAS to PPLs unless there is a good reason to.

LARS units are paid to provide a service. That service may be subject to the ups and downs of workload in their other tasks, but generally speaking a radar service should be available. Non-LARS units may also provide a service, but in that case it's a matter of kindness or coordination rather than duty.

[XX621]

LARS units are paid to provide a service

Agreed. But in the case of some LARS units they seem to be frequently very busy looking after non-airline jet traffic flying outside of CAS heading for the airfield from which the LARS are operating from.

What chance have I got of getting a RIS just to go on top to assist my private/leisure/non-revenue generating flight?:confused:

Or is this perception simply incorrect?

(Not knocking wonderful LARS ... just accepting a realism?)

[niknak]

XX621

Why not just go for a RIS throughout the flight?

Asking for a RIS just for the IMC/IFR part of your flight is a perfectly legitimate request, but if the Controller is working close to capacity you're more likely to be refused.

A RIS for the flight from the beginning doesn't commit you to much and, subject to day to day ATC limitations, you get a full radar service throughout the time that you are within radar cover.

[XX621]

niknak : You mean requesting RIS upon first contact with the LARS on a VFR flight I assume?

[niknak]

XX.
Yes, IFR or VFR you are entitled to a RIS (again, subject to the provider's limitations).

[Shunter]

I always ask for a RIS. What've you got to lose? They can only say no...

[XX621]

I always ask for a RIS. What've you got to lose? They can only say no...

True..bit like asking for a date!:}

Would like to understand how a LARS unit goes about prioritising traffic outside CAS? i.e who gets a radar service who doesn't...first come, first served?

[Dysonsphere]

well remember while getting ppl 3 years ago coming back from Shoreham we ran into unforecast low level cloud and rain, instructor had IR so told me to carry on (damm good training by the way) well he tried to get an RIS out of Farnbourgh pity the whole world was trying to do same thing, in the end we went through in IMC squawking 7000 because freq completly overloaded.

[chevvron]

One problem with providing RIS when it's busy is that having made the 'contract' with the pilot (yes I know he/she should still keep a lookout) it's often difficult to get a word in edgeways to actually 'call' a confliction, hence we limit or refuse service on grounds of RTF loading.

[NorthSouth]

XX621: don't worry too much about what the reaction might be from whatever LARS provider. It's up to you to request the service you want. Just call them up confidently and say 'G-ABCD IFR training flight (or whatever) from X to Y request Radar Information Service in the climb to x thousand feet'. And if they won't give you a RIS just listen out for other traffic and make your climb through cloud to VFR on top as planned - or if the reason they won't give you a RIS is high traffic density then maybe have a rethink and stay VFR.
NS

[Fuji Abound]

I have to say that if you ask in the "right way" it is very rare not to be given the service. In fact on the whole the service we get is first class.

Obviously on a busy Saturday with good VFR and everyone up a service is not going to be readily given for the reasons stated.

However you may find if you make it clear why you need the service in these circumstances the request may met more receptively.

For example their are occasions with a low sun and some haze flying directy towards the sun conditions are not far short of IMC.

[Ops and Mops]

Remember (and LARS ATC units should remember this too sometimes) that LARS stands for Lower Airspace RADAR Service.

A RIS doesn't really load up a controller much more than giving traffic info on a FIS, in fact it keeps the controller's situational awareness of the big picture a lot more than "forgetting" about FIS traffic because "that's what it says in the book". At the end of the day, if a controller is working to capacity then you should hear the words "Unable to provide an ATC service due to controller workload, remain outside controlled airspace and suggest you freecall XXXXX"

If you are on a RIS and it is limited for any reason (high traffic density, poor radar performance etc) then that should be clearly stated. A Radar Service should not be refused solely on these grounds unless it is physically impossible to provide the service, or the controller would be overloaded.

If a LARS unit is routinely refusing to provide radar services due to controller workload, then questions should be asked whether that unit should be nominated to provide LARS. It is incumbent on the LARS unit to ensure that it is capable of providing the contacted service, and that staffing, equipment etc should be up to the job.

If you need a radar service then ask for one. If you think you have been unfairly refused one then phone the unit concerned and speak to the Watch Manager/Supervisor about it. If still no joy, then feel free to file a report so that it is looked at by SRG at the CAA.

Radar is an aid to navigation for all airspace users within a LARS area, not just those inside controlled airspace!

[airac]

If East midlands are too busy ,if you are to the west of NX and to the East of BB try Coventry we'll do our best,:ok: subject work load of course:)

[XX621]

Very useful replies. Thanks all.

To transgress slightly...the LARS unit I talk to 3+ times a week when I fly are often busy with jet traffic (operating outside CAS specifically after leaving / joining an airway).

Now, I am very curious about the following and I would welcome comments from those in the know/more experienced aviators (or both). A number of times I have been given specific instructions by a LARS (when receiving a FIS) in order to assist them with maintaining seperation from inbound/outbound IFR traffic...e.g "maintain 1400ft please" or "turn northbound now pls" or "no further east than current position pls" and so. These sounded very much like instructions...but are,i n actual fact, polite requests for assistance. They are always followed by "thanks for help...resume own navigation".

Am always glad to help...and as I only fly non-professionally it makes little difference to me..anything to help things run smoothly up there. They provide us with a great service and am happy to help them.

However..I am slightly concerned that one day these "instructions" may lead me, or someone else into an undesireable situation. I would stress I am fully aware who is the PIC in these situations and I like to believe I would refuse if I felt the instruction would undermine the safety/legality of my flight...but these requests do sound very, very much like instructions.

The other day, for example, I was told to track towards a VRP point which is *literally* on the border of the EGLL SFC-1500' CTA. No problem, I did so, watching my ground position like a hawk of course - but the fact remains it eliminated by navigation buffer away from the CTA. Other times I have been requested to stay below 1400ft, and so on, when I would prefer to be 2500+ for a multitude of reasons.

I am curious to learn more about the LARS controller's thought processes in determining which traffic should "give way". I don't believe IFR traffic flying outside CAS from an airway has no more entitlement to expediency than I do? Or have I missed a trick here?

I can see the difficulty from the LARS perspective. Inbound IFR traffic dropping in from an airway through Class G to EGXX, flying over all kinds of airfields / farm strips / glider sites with pop-up traffic all over the place.

As I stated...comments very welcome. Am keen to gain more of an insight into the day to day reality of the LARS environment so I can more operate more effectively within it.

[dont overfil]

airac
Thanks for that. I could also have received the service further south.
Next time.
DOhttp://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon14.gif

[Ops and Mops]

XX621,

ATC can only give instructions to VFR traffic in the following situations:

1) A positive instruction to remain outside controlled airspace.

2) Instructions in the form of an air traffic control clearance inside controlled airspace that allows VFR flight, or inside an ATZ and/or circuit or on the ground where an ATC or FISO service is provided. These may include a height restriction (Not above or not below a certain altitude/height, a specified routing or specified VRP/Entry Exit point.)

3) When directed by Her Majesty's Government.

All other communications should be requests, traffic information or messages in the interest of flight safety. If you receive a request (or instruction inside controlled airspace) that compromises either your flight rules or safety of flight, then ATC should be told "unable to comply in order to maintain VFR" or another such phrase.

ATC will often ask you do do things that suits their overall traffic picture, of which you may not be fully aware. It is normally in your interest to follow these requests unless there is an over riding flight safety reason not to. That said, outside CAS, there is nothing stopping you from applying the see and avoid principle if you so wished, just don't expect ATC to then go out of their way to expedite you through their zone or overhead!

If asked to route to a point on a CTR/CTA boundary, confirm with the controller whether or not you require a clearance into controlled airspace in order to route to that point. At least then in the subsequent zone infringement investigation, the tapes will show that you were aware of it. If no clearance is forthcoming, advise ATC that you will turn short of the VRP in order to remain outside controlled airspace. Always keep your navigation buffer if you don't have a clearance to enter the zone!

[XX621]

Ops & Mops: Cheers.

[mildly amused]

I can't remember the last time I refused a RIS, I have limited the service due you being too low or on the edge of my cover.
LARS units are paid to provide the service do not be afraid to ask for this valuable service.
Do not be bullied into accepting a restriction on your flight path or level outside controlled airspace if you are flying in the FIR, the ATCO can request but NOT instruct you to fly a specific route or level and therefore your compliance should be appreciated (good airmanship) not demanded as it is facilitating/helping the controller.