tailwheel landing on grass - visual cues?

[rusty sparrow]

Landing problems - tailwheel and grass I've been happy with my landings when flying tricycle undercarriage acft on/off tarmac. Now I'm doing a tailwheel conversion (Jodel) on grass I'm having real difficulty with landings, especially rounding out too high or bouncing. Is this anything to do with different visual cues when landing on grass versus landing on a clearly defined strip of tarmac? I'm finding that learning to fly tailwheel is a humbling experience!

[oscarmike]

Hi Rusty

I fly a tailwheel Jodel and find that the main cause of bouncing is excess airspeed.

I had the same problem when I first converted to tailwheel overcoming the mindset that you actually have to stall a tailwheel aircraft into landing.

In the tricycle type, if the stall warner chirped druing the round out I used to get very nervous.

However in the Jodel, if the stall warner is NOT chirping on the round out, you are too fast, and when the tail drops it is the equivalent of putting in an elevator input,and the aircraft will simply try to take off again, resulting in a bounce.

Other than this, it is just practice, practice, practice, until you crack it.

You will eventually, trust me! :ok:

[Mark 1]

The visual cues in the flare are essentially the same whether nosewheel or tailwheel.
I suspect it could be a combination of the different type and the extra control and accuracy needed to perfect your 3-point landing.

Jodels do have a markedly more open forward view than most Cessnas and Pipers as the cowling is noticeably lower in your field of view (did you have an initial tendency to over-pitch in the climb-out and to climb when trying to trim S+L?).

Stick with it and you'll soon get there. The Jodel is an excellent introduction to tailwheels.

[Contacttower]

I had a similar problem at first with always flaring too high, too fast. Dealing with the speed issue was easy after a while; I just had to get into the habit of being much more disciplined on the approach. The flare height was harder and rather than trying to look for visual cues I would consciously delay the flare...so I'd get to the point where I'd naturally want to flare, deliberately wait a split second and then flare.

Once I'd done a few good landings I was then able to memorise the flare height from them.

Also as a starting point for good landings you should always (for three point at least) have the stick all the way back either as or a split second before the wheels touch.

[SNS3Guppy]

As there's virtually no difference between landing on a hard surface, and landing on grass with respect to technique, flare height, sped, etc, perhaps the difficulty may be the size of the runway. If you're used to landing on a wide runway and are now landing on a narrower runway, you may be flaring late and bouncing because you perceive yourself higher (narrower runways look farther away) than you really are.

Depth perception shouldn't be appreciably different on grass vs. tarmac/macadam. You're doing the same things, using your peripheral vision as well as viewing the end of the runway (as opposed to staring at a spot right in front of the nose), and using the same speeds. No differences, there.

Be aware that landing on grass is more forgiving; it allows one to "cheat," in that the long axis not being exactly aligned with the direction of travel won't produce the tire grab or other tendencies that a slightly crabbed landing will produce on a hard surface. If you do a lot of flying on grass and then transition back to a paved surface, you may find that bad habits have developed. Then again, you may not, but it's not uncommon. The phenomenon is somewhat the same as learning bad habits in a tricycle gear airplane, that show up when transitioning to a conventional gear (tailwheel) airplane. Same thing for grass to paved surfaces.

[ChampChump]

Speed, speed, speed.

And remember: Grass Is Good :E



I don't get it right all the time but in a very forgiving aeroplane on grass one gets benefits. Enjoy them, relax and it all gets a bit easier.

Just my 2D worth.

[gasax]

Speed will let you bounce but so to will not achieving the 'three point' attitude, and that is very common in trike drivers. If you land a trike from a slightly nose high attitude then as it touchs down the angle of attack reduces - no tendency to return into the air apart from the recoil of the undercariage. Land a taildragger from a not fully held off flare and the tail can continue to go down whilst the main gear cannot - cue one bounce/balloon, depending on speed - both longitudinally and vertically.

It is the old 'try not to let the aircraft land' phrase that you need to implement. Unfortunately taildraggers can really accentuate poor landing technique - then when you take it onto tarmac there is usally a further lesson in being even more accurate - have fun!

[Crash one]

I'm in about the same position, spent the first couple of sessions trying to keep it straight, now flaring too high. I'm doing the conversion on tarmac, & have found that the return home to the grass strip is easier / more forgiving. I have been told it will take about 12hrs.
And as for the humbling experience, it certainly is, I feel like a raw student again, concentration high, workload through the roof, thinking about the landing has made my radio calls sound like a moron, being low hrs in the first place prob doesn't help.

[3 Point]

Hi Rusty,

Some good advice in here but, as ever mixed in with some less helpful comments. It is not by any mean required to "stall" a taildragger in the final moments of landing nor is it usual to be at full back stick. I'm not a Jodel expert but, landing a taildragger in the three point attitude requires that you flare and hold it off until the three point attitude is achieved then let it settle down on all three wheels. In most this is very close to the stall but, not actually stalled and not likely to require full back stick! It is also possible, and in certain cases desirable, to land faster, on the main wheels with a lower nose than would be achieved in a three pointer.

My advice is, get yourself an experienced taildragger instructor who really understands what is going on and who can explain it to you in the briefing room and and demonstrate what he is teaching you in the aeroplane. Remember, you don't learn to fly in an aeroplane; you learn it in the classroom then get in the aeroplane to practice.

Happy landings

3 point

[jxk]

And after you mastered the 3 pointers comes the wheelers. Wheelers were/are a problem for me as I'd got so used to pulling the column/stick back at the flare like what you do with both tail-wheel or nose-wheel aircraft. With a wheeler you have to very consciously push forward; all very alien. And of course the other thing you need to be aware of is judicious use of brake and rudder combination to keep it straight on take-off and the roll out. At least with the Jodel you can see over the nose. Any way good luck with your conversion.

[will5023]

Hi Rusty, just to add a few more ideas to the one's already mentioned, firstly make sure that you instructor or coach has plenty of experience in your type of Jodel, to get a visual idea of the touch down position for 3 point landings, simply look out of the aircraft while in the holding area, and judge the angle via the nose to ground area in front of you. Try and visualise this when in the hold off.
Do you wear glasses ? If you are long sighted, this can give problems in visual referance. I trust you are not learning from a short strip ? This may will give you limited area in which to learn. Jodels will float if the speed is wrong, but this should not be a problem to start with if you have plenty of grass runway to play with, and will give you time to feel the hold off.
Bounces are all part of the learning curve, depending on severity a little cussion of power, will help. Good luck and enjoy your new aircraft, which model is she ?

Cheers Will.

[Jumbo Driver]

Rusty, try sitting in your taildragger on the ground and memorising both the attitude and the distance you are from the ground. This is exactly where you need to be in the flare just before touchdown ... only just very slightly higher ...

You seem to be changing three things - hard surface to grass, nosewheel to tailwheel, and aircraft type - all at the same time. Flare technique can be affected by all of these three. For example, many will tend to flare higher on a tarmac runway compared with grass but that is not always the case. Also, flare attitude will clearly vary between types, irrespective of "third" wheel position. However, once you achieve the right tailwheel 3-point landing technique, that should transfer across to improve your nosewheel landings, especially if you have any tendency to "wheelbarrow" (i.e. too shallow a flare).

The suggestion that you stall a taildragger on to the ground is not really correct in all cases. If you hold off for too long in some types, it can result in landing on the tailwheel first. Whilst this may have the advantage of discouraging a bounce (because the angle of attack will reduce subsequently, as the main wheels touch down), it is quite likely to overstress or damage the tailwheel assembly. Tailwheels are generally not nearly as robust as the main undercarriage and some smaller assemblies can be very easily damaged.

A good tailwheel instructor as witness should be able to pinpoint the aspect that is causing you the current problem. In any event, do not despair - you can be sure that it will all come with practice. All in all, a taildragger reacts far more quickly to poor technique than a tricycle undercarriage. However, because of this it is an excellent training platform for honing handling skills. When you have mastered the taildragger, it really will result in a significant improvement in the rest of your flying.

Have fun - hope this helps ...


JD
:)

[Them thar hills]

RS - apart from all the pointers offered on here, it's also good idea to make sure the tailwheel assembly is doing it's job right. It's about the hardest worked item on the aircraft.
I can think of two Jodels where the tailwheel was free castering (which is NOT whats they're supposed to do) because of wear / lack of lubrication.
Needless to say the pilots were having a directionally challenging time through no fault of their own.
Jodels have a fairly flat 3-point attitude, so a tailwheel-first landing is quite commonplace, just make sure you don't hold off too high, you'll know when it feels right. A greaser isn't necessarily a good landing.
Sitting in an aircraft learning the 3-point attitude is time well spent !
:)

[rusty sparrow]

Thanks all - some very useful comments and tips there - glad to know others have similar problems. I'm finding tailwheel a challenge - especially after returning to flying after a long break. Tricycle u/c on a hard surface is a LOT easier e.g. for take off, it's basically a matter of pointing it down the right runway, sticking in the power and lifting off at the right airspeed. Tailwheel takeoff requires anticipation of wind, torque, p effects and countering them before they take a hold. I'm finding it a bit like learning to fly all over again. It'll feel good when I've mastered it!

[Monocock]

RS,

There is some good advice above.

Tailwheel flying is not harder than tricycle a/c flying, just different. Once you get used to it it really is more fun and in some ways more rewarding too.

Don't panic about the take-off. Once the tail is up the aircraft then becomes progressively more stable during the acceleration process as the speed increases over the flying surfaces. Just make sure you don't make any erratic control inputs and make sure you are anticipating uneven surfaces and cross winds and you'll be fine. Between this point and the landing the a/c handles no differently to a tricycle type.

I agree with the above. Speed control is paramount when getting back down. Make sure you know the best approach speed. Then, stick to it like glue. On the final leg get into the habit of controlling speed with the elevator and rate of descent with the power (and NOT the other way round). Aim to start the round-out approximately 4 feet above the surface with the apporach speed gradually bleeding off at this point. Each time she sinks a foot or so just keep easing back on the stick/yoke. (If your approach was a bit to fast this procedure will just take that much longer and you will eat into the runway distance that much more*). There will be a point where your speed reduces enough that you tail is gradually lowering and all three wheels are just above the ground. This is the point where you have pretty much lost enough airspeed to ensure that you won't become airborne again when you touch down. At this tage, just keep the stick back and DON'T relax the back-pressure on it until you are at walking pace.

As mentioned above by someone else, if your mains touch before you have lost enough speed, the pivotal effect will mean that your tail wheel drop and the angle of attack will therefore increase. This will normally make you airborne again and is the start of what can lead to be a difficult situation to manage. As a situation goes, it can be rescued by a dab of power while the aircraft settles back into the landing configuration (flat) but be careful as at the top of the bouce you will proabably find you stall and the drop can be quite pronounced! In this situation it is normally best to go around and start again.

To sum up, try and get the aircraft to be flying in its "resting" attitude 12 inches above the actual surface. The rest will all happen automatically once you have done this.

* - I don't know why but I always find that if the aircraft has been allowed to approach slightly too fast, the transition from descent attitude to flare/stall attittude is that much more difficult to judge and manage. This may be because the whole process of descent/flare/stall takes that much longer when the airspeed is too fast, thereby allowing more time for it to go tits up. If you are too fast over the threshold there is NOTHING you can do except wait, and wait, and wait for it to slow down enough (assuming there is room on the runway to do this......)

[Mike Cross]

One of the reasons why speed control is more critical is that without the noseleg there is less drag and the thing won't slow down so readily once you are in the flare. A second thing is that the flaps are generally less effective at adding drag than on say a Cessna. 40 degrees on one of those certainly gives you a very marked increase in drag so any excess speed bleeds off rapidly.

As mentioned above, the key to all of this is to nail the speed on the approach. Make sure you've got the right speed for the aircraft, check the POH. For a lot of training a/c 70 kt works regardless of the type so it becomes a bit of a "standard". Try it in my Luscombe and you'll soon find it doesn't work!

[TommyGun]

I haven't flown the Chipmunk in a while, but I loved flying it, but hated taxiing, take-off and landing.

[Studefather]

Rusty,

Your original post questioned the difference in visual cues when landing on grass vs tarmac.

I have certainly found that, on grass strips, for height reference at the point of flair and hold-off, I missed the flash past of tarmac runway markings, repair patches, seams etc. Relaxing, and letting peripheral vision inputs play their part, helped me but this might not be the case for others esp. if wearing specs or even sun glasses.

The problem is probably more acute in something like the Chipmunk where you have reduced forward view at the flair and partly obstructed view of the ground to each side.

Rough grass runway edges are GOOD - wide open and closely cut and rolled fields are BAD.
There is one well known Lincs destination at which the wide open grass landing area (approx 600m x400m) is absolutely meticulously maintained and I have never arrived there without a significant bounce - at say 20' above ground you have good peripheral cues - at touch down speed and eyeline height (Chipmunk) you can begin to discern texture of the grass - in the critical phase in between, the field surface becomes a bland uniform pastel green mush.

My 2D.

[oscarmike]

Hi again

Just wanted to clarify what I said about actually having to stall a tailwheel aircraft into landing.

As others have pointed out, I worded this a little badly.

I did all my training on a tricycle type, and if the stall warner sounded during the round out I used to get the collywobbles.

However, now the stall warner on the Jodel indicates to me that my airspeed is about right just prior to touchdown.

Sorry if I confused you!

[RatherBeFlying]

As you enter the flare you look ahead to the end of the runway and hold your landing attitude with judiciously increased backstick -- using the rudder to keep it pointed down the runway and the wing to keep the crosswind from blowing you off.

There is a moment when the grass blades or tarmac texture becomes apparent in your peripheral vision and that's usually the time to flare.

With high wing taildraggers you can also glance at the gear as it nears the pavement, but your main focus must remain the end of the runway.

In a glider, you know you've done it just right if you hear the tailwheel brushing through the grass whereupon a touch more spoiler puts the mainwheel down;)

[LowNSlow]

If you are landing something like an Auster with full flap down you may find that the flaps shield the rudder from the propwash. As you slow down this can make life interesting if there is a crosswind. I've learned that as soon as you are stabilised on the runway it's a big benefit to get the flaps up!

[BristolScout]

All good stuff for the landing. To master the take-off it's important to understand the theory that makes the taildragger swing - asymmetric blade effect, torque, gyroscopic effect and slipstream effect. Find a good textbook and/or experienced tailwheel instructor to help here. The good news is that all the factors work in the same sense so that for an aeroplane with a standard American engine with prop rotating clockwise when viewed from the cockpit the machine is going to want to go left. Anticipate with initial application of right rudder and you're halfway there. Opposite applies for Brit classics such as Austers, Chipmunks with propellers turning in the opposite sense.

It's also wise to remember that a tailwheel landing isn't over until the aircraft is parked - they need respect taxying, especially cross-wind.

Enjoy!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

There must be something wrong with my vision because I can not judge how close I am to an object or the surface when flying if I look way off into the distance.

For instance when approaching a fire with the intention of dropping a load of fire retardant or water with accuracy on a specific part of the fire I can't imagine looking a mile past the target and still be able to judge when to push the drop button so as to hit the target.

Same goes for crop dusting...if I wanted to fly at say two feet above the crop I can not imagine looking a mile ahead and being able to maintain two feet.

So obviously I must have something wrong with my vision.

Just another thought, when landing on the water how would I see an object such as a dead head in front of me if I were looking a mile ahead?

[kluge]

On a constant angle approach aim to fly through an imaginary 12ft high hoop that is standing at the threshold at the correct speed adjusting for X-wind (cross controls not crab) and controlling speed with power.
Head back and transition to 3-point flare, adjusting for X-wind and try not to land - power should be off at this stage. Keep feeding in backstick to hold the attitude (airspeed decreasing) until you feel the bump and then keep feeding in backstick and steer with rudder. Aileron into X-wind with full back stick.

In a Pitts S2(A, B or S) you're blind as soon as you flare so you have to put your head back look ahead and use peripheral vision based on where the edge of the runway is.

Lots of fun.

[rusty sparrow]

Folks, your tips and comments have been very useful. Any additions would be great. Sounds like the key is a well set up circuit and approach and accurate speed control. If I flew as well as I did on my first solo I think I'd have it nailed - probably picked up some bad habits over the years!