Are you busy?

[ROTORVATION]

Not the most exciting thread....apologies! Have any of you onshore pilot types (UK) noticed a significant slowdown in training / trial lesson sales & charter enquiries?

I'm strugling to understand whether the company I work for is not being active enough in chasing new business, or simply, every operator is not as busy as they usd to be.

We could keep 2 full time instructors going, doing 75 - 85 hrs a month plus a part timer FI to cover any overflow. We've been lucky to keep one instructor busy for the last 4 months.

Any observations?

RV

[Camp Freddie]

well when confidence in the economy goes the helicopter is going to be the first thing you stop using isnt it?

I met a pilot from a major south eastern england corporate operator about 2 months ago and I asked him if the credit cruch had affected business and his reply was "our clients are so wealthy that this wont affect anything", then a couple of weeks ago I heard anecdotal evidence that this same operator has had a significant reduction in activity, so if this is true I am pleased I am not in that sector right now.

also I have heard that a couple of training schools that I am aware of have had a noticable slowdown this spring as well.

regards

CF

[nigelh]

Dont forget that prices have gone steadily up due to fuel and will go up a lot more when the new CAA charges come in on your aoc . I am very bearish about the future in this country when we are ruled by beaurocrats , risk assessment officers,tree huggers and fun police :{ and to make matters worse , we ( or some of us ) pay for these people whose only aim is to create barriers and stop things from happening .......theirs is the mentality that bans paddling pools ( drowning) , bans conkers ( poorly knuckles), bans students from throwing their hats in the air at the end of their course ( sore eye?) bans smoking everywhere ( poorly lungs) and as we know landing in a garden with a bush in it is also banned :rolleyes:

Just sold a 109 Mk 2 pretty quickly and had offers for my squirrel so dont see the collapse of heli prices just yet . Try finding an AS 350 B2 or B3 for sensible money ......

[KNIEVEL77]

Are the price of training lessons likely to increase due to the fuel prices going up or do you think the flying schools will keep the prices the same as now so as not to put trainees off taking up their PPL(H)in the future?

[helimutt]

No way will the training schools absorb ever increasing prices. I imagine some will put their prices up Fast! :)There's not a great deal of profit in an hours flying anyway.:eek:

[kneedwondean]

We've been fairly busy with trial lessons the past few months, and have a couple of new PPL students. That said, we finally caved in and had to put our prices up. Jetranger and R44 saw the biggest increases. R22 stayed the same but there is nothing in it now, just my wages! Time will tell if this makes a difference.

[KNIEVEL77]

£310????? WOW. Now I would seriously have to have a rethink if the hourly rate went up to that price!

[McBad]

Agreed! £310 per hour would put paid to my PPL dreams. Is their R22 gold-plated or something?

M

[helimutt]

DO NOT PAY UP FRONT!!!! IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE SO IDIOTIC, USE A CREDIT CARD TO PAY FOR THE ADDED INSURANCE IF THEY GO TITS UP!

Any school who gives a discount for payment up front??? What are they doing that for? On their way out? Financial problems?

£310/hr? Where is that?

[biggles99]

£50 for the instructor
£100 for the owner's cost on the heli
£55 for the fuel

so far, all cost.

add £50 for profit - not unreasonable given the risk and the standing overheads, and that's £255.

allocate a sensible amount for landing fees - say £10 per hour, and that's £265.

£265 +vat is £311.

doesn't seem that unreasonable to me to want to make a profit of £50 a hour for 50 hours done over 6 to 12 months by any operator.

that's £2,500 gross profit - not net profit - on a turnover of £13,250.

most transport related industries work on a GP of at least 40%,not 18%.

Ask yourself how many PPL courses a school does in a year,and then look at whether YOU could run everything else involved in running a training business on the nnn x £2,500 that you will have available to spend.


Big Ls

[Hughes500]

Helimutt
Whats the problem with paying upfront ? I give a discount on upfront payment for the following reasons ( my school is not in any financial problems)

1. Reduces invoices and trips to bank, which costs
2. prevents having to chase money ( there are a lot of dreamers out there) and having to wait 30 plus days to be paid
3. Shows comittment both ways

Now Helimutt when you fly with an airline do you ever pay for the flight after receiving the goods er no, so why should we be any different ?

[SASless]

Nigel,

How does the UK compare to the rest of JARland for costs?

Are the Peans as bad for administrative costs for licensing and "CAA" type costs?

[nigelh]

Sasless i am the wrong one to ask as i looked at flying and operating in the UK 25 yrs ago .....and went to the states !!! Sadly all the suites have since bred amongst themselves and employed all their children :confused: There is no hope left for us over here i am afraid . An AS 350 b2 ( say $1.2m min value ) would have to go out at almost $2,000 per hr to make any sensible money at all when operated on an aoc with all of the charges involved , and to do that you would have to find an owner happy to let you use his machine and pay him say $1400 wet hire . ( and thats still paying the pilots peanuts !!) Stay where you are !!!!!!!!and keep your sanity .

[helimutt]

Hughes500. You saying all of your customers pay in cash? I must have taken payment for 00's of trial lesons/lessons etc and I could probably count on one hand the amount of times I took cash.


You say 1. Reduces invoices and trips to bank, which costs.well, I dont get this one. Trips to the bank? using credit cards?

2. prevents having to chase money ( there are a lot of dreamers out there) and having to wait 30 plus days to be paid
Can't people agree to pay at the end of each day like many schools? say keep a small amount of credit or something like many schools

3. Shows comittment both ways

Come off it. If you're a professional outfit then i'd expect a certain level of service if I was a customer.


Sorry but my argument still stands. H500, If you run a successful school/flying company then great. I admire you for your ability to survive in these testing times, when a lot of companies think it's easier to close their doors owing money.
My view has always has been NEVER PAY A SCHOOL UPFRONT. Do so at your own cost!!! Seen too many people ripped off when the school goes under.
Everyone who is paying for training should be intelligent enough to make a reasoned decision given the facts before them.


Just thought i'd add, when I say dont pay upfront, I mean for the whole course, ie a whole PPL or CPL or FI course.
Obviously a couple of hours credit is not an issue. Hope that helps clear that one up.

[FairWeatherFlyer]

NEVER PAY A XXX UPFRONT

As Three Blades wisely observed in another thread, this is a loan. Loans have credit risk unless you have (good) collatarel security or covenants or if you opt for an escrow arrangement.

Whether it's a holiday, a kitchen or a flying course this risk will be present. It may be reduced by insurance, associations, payment methods and government credit legislation, or zilch.

Bankruptcy exists for good reasons for both individuals and companies. There's often little or no reason to vilify the parties involved. And it does happen. Caveat emptor.

Note: if a discount for bulk upfront payment equates to an APR that seems excessive then this tells you something about the counterparty.

[Whirlybird]

So, we have a recession (or close to it), there's little profit for helicopter schools at the best of times, fuel is continually going up, there are less students around, we're discussing whether schools are likely to go under (or we should be)...

And some of you are still considering paying for a whole PPL(H) course up front!!!!!!!!!!!! :=:ugh::ugh:

[Paul_tail rotor_Wint]

£310, wow around $950 NZ dollars,

Highest hourly rate $510 NZ dollars, generally all $475+ now.

Wouldn't dent the overseas students, especially coming here with UK pounds.
Which is now turning out to be the target for training schools here.

Maybe the locals will, but with interest free loans I didn't think it will turn them off.

[choppertop]

... from Ivor's contribution and how's it looking out there in training land, folks? Do I splash out another 10 big ones to get my FI ticket this Autumn or... er ... not?!

[photex]

I appreciate it's hard to give exact figures, but how much would an 'experienced' CFI (say 800 hours) earn if he/she was prepared to re-locate anywhere in the UK?

[Flingingwings]

Or that some schools will still expect you to attend work (and I use the term work in the loosest sense) on a poor weather day or on a day when you've no flying booked so that you can be available should work walk in off the street, and whilst you wait you can sweep the hangar and clean the aircraft all for no money :ugh:

Enjoyed the flying but hated the one company I FI'd for :mad:

[helipaul]

I’ve been instructing for 3 years now and have to say its easy to get really feed up with the job, I think the problem is that we simply don’t stand up for ourselves enough and our employers know that or act as if there is another instructor just around the corner( normally someone you have trained:\). I have over 2000 hours now. Last year was really good with about 80 hours a month through the summer but this year I’m about 25% down. The problem is we all spend about 75 K on our own training and are so so grateful to get our first job and that blessed hourly rate. But after a short time with no job security, no pension, holiday , sickness, long hours an no weekends off its easy to get a bit disillusioned. Not sure what the answer is really but I have found that if you keep plugging your own corner then slowly things do improve. Was suggested to me that I come in all the time when weathers bad and diaries empty but replied that my token gesture of a retainer I get paid doesn’t cover that . The big problem is that heli instructors are treated as fixed wing guys but where as there end goal is an airline job at 800 hours we are stuck in the lower ends for longer. Maybe we should get a union :sad:

[KNIEVEL77]

From a students point of view, I have had to postpone my training for the time being due to the increased cost of the lessons as the fuel costs went up........wonder how many others have done the same?

[ROTORVATION]

Anyone care to share some observations now we're 6 months down the line?

Anyone getting busier?

RV

[murdock]

Things have changed somewhat dramatically. As far as I know, schools in the US have slowed down due to students not being able to get financed. I would imagine this is true in Europe as well, as I heard schools in Ireland and Uk had slowed too.
As far as onshore commercial work, in my view it has collapsed very badly. It's a struggle to get work these days. Just look at all the operators and it's clear as day. Canada's industry has tumbled, due to oil and gas crashing. I had heard companies in England and Ireland have fallen dramatically - we all know that there is hardly any work left in Ireland!
The U.S. seems to still be somewhat going a bit, with most of the work being offered in EMS, as the GOM has slowed too, and Bristow (Air Logistics) has been letting go of people there. Offshore I have heard Bristow is still letting people go, and CHC had been letting go of their contract pilots. It's pretty bad times in my books.

[helimutt]

We're busier than ever. :ok: Just had to take on more staff to cope. That's just one of our bases and can't comment on the other ones.

That could all change in an instant if the contracts are lost to the competition, I guess.

6 operators now working the offshore sector in Southern North Sea. That means lots of competition and the requirement for companies to get their sh&t together.

[firebird_uk]

I think we have a tale of two industries. If you're working for an operator whose business is largely contract driven then those contracts have to be serviced and very little has changed (except for a probable cost cutting exercise that any sensible business would undertake). Workers still need transporting and pipelines don't inspect themselves.

If you are working in the pleasure flying, charter, training and freelance sector then (speaking for the UK) I'd have thought you're a lot better at sudoku and DIY than you were 12 months ago. There's so little charter work around that pilots and operators aren't bothering keeping up Base and Line checks and pleasure trips (voucher flights etc) are very slow.

I know some cock will reply to this telling us all how wonderful life is for them and how they're flying 150hrs / month - but (if that's even true) it's very much the exception.

For those new to the industry the options are very limited (as ever). There's no point in becoming an FI when most schools have limited students and there's no point in getting an IR to join the back of a very long queue of twin/IFR pilots almost all of whom probably have 5 to 10 times the hours in their logbooks.

Tough times indeed.

[Spunk]

It's weird, we always used to have some slow month during winter time but this year we've been busier than during summer time. Training went up, charter went up, aerial work went up. The only thing which is slow right now is aerial filming (we used to do a lot of that stuff).
However, we are about to get another helicopter by May.:ok:

[Trans Lift]

Things are slow in the US right now. Financing, as was said earlier is the big thing. We've plenty of interested people but the financial side is the main issue. Things are bad when even Bristow Academy's number have dropped and they have stopped hiring instructors!!!!:eek:

[Teglen]

... to want (or even try) to join this industry right now? I'm a PPL(H) who's just lost his office job and looking at new directions. Been ummin/ahhin about taking the leap to CPL/ATPL for a year or so, and am now wondering if losing my job is a sign/push. Have got the money, but it is a big bet.

Am I crazy? will there be jobs for low-hours frozen ATPL's or - as someone mentioned earlier - will I be at the back of a long (and more experienced) queue?

[FairWeatherFlyer]

Getting and keeping for length of career a Class 1 medical is the first prerequisite.

On the financial side rather than the fulfillment, this is also worth considering/understanding:

PwC Northern Ireland - Public sector tortoises pension off private sector hares (http://www.pwc.co.uk/ni/hottopics/public_sector_tortoises_pension_off_private_sector_hares.htm l)

[thecontroller]

Another 6 months on!

Are you busy? Has onshore charter picked-up yet? Many IR people looking for jobs out there?

[Grand Ops]

The market seems quite good at the moment, the enquiries are up, Training is up...........cant complain. Tis the season though......
:D

[Gordy]

Busy...not yet, on contract earning money...yep. Both mine and our sister company have 6 out of 10 total aircraft out on fire contracts already. Shaping up to be a busy year in fire.

[hands_on123]

How's everyone doing in the UK?

Charter south-east UK doing well? Or dire?

Instructors managing to pay the bills?

Post your anecdotes here...

[Cylinder Head]

No, we are not as busy as we have been - times are tight but we still battle on.

Sorry to be frank folks, but the reality of operating in the UK is that helicopter training is expensive. Helicopter Training is probably the most marginal business I have ever looked at financially speaking. On the whole we, as an industry, have been undercharging for what we do for the last 15 years.

Instructors:
In what other profession would you spend £50k to qualify and then be expected to work for £50 per flying hour that's £25 per hour by the time you have briefed. You only get paid when you fly and that's only when the weather is nice (my solicitor charges £200 per hour just to talk).

Owners:
They just about cover their normal out goings at £90 per hour on an R22 if it works hard - 40 hours per month - and that's without unscheduled maintenance. Not much of a return on capital.

Flying Schools:
A flying school making a gross profit of £50 per hour is doing well but will probably only just break even at the net level.

Fuel:
Our fuel has gone up by 43p per litre in the last 18 months - that's £17 per hour (R22) - our prices have only rise £12 per hour as that is all the market will stand, so we are £5 per hour down on last year already.

Landing Fees:
Airfields are looking to replace lost volume by increasing charges on base operators who are tied in.

CAA:
We all know what great value for money they are.

Insurance
£9,000 per heli, per year - regardless of how much you fly.

All said and done £310 per hour is expensive but it is a lot less than we should be charging - trouble is there are too many operators for a limited market - supply outweighs demand.

NB
These figures make no provision for insurance excesses on an accident or legal costs following a problem or incident. Given the potential risks (financial & physical) involved in what we do, this is crazy.



The fact is that none of us are in this business for the money, we do it because we love it and are prepared to operate at very fine margins to carry on. We are also proud of what we do and get a kick out of passing on the knowledge. Those who do it well will be a bit more expensive but will still be busy - ish.

The market is very fragile at the moment but our industry is not alone - we are top end so there is a certain set who will always be able to afford to fly - trouble is there are fewer of them around at moment.


No need to cry for us - its our own fault - but please be realistic about what you get for your money - use of an expensive asset, services of a professional instructor for a couple of hours, insurance, £70's worth of fuel, ATC service plus the most incredible experience you can have in my opinion.

If you don't want to pay the price - don't do it - go somewhere where its cheaper but work out why its cheaper, where are the costs being cut?

As regards paying up front - its your decision - a big discount may indicate a company looking cash flow benefits - that's not necessarily because they are in trouble - maybe just good financial management. On the other hand don't bleat if they go bust and you lose your money. A discount of £10 per hour may seem like having but is scarce recompence if you lose £1,000.

CH :hmm:

[hands_on123]

So... how's everyone doing? Busy?

[Hughes500]

yup certainly am:ok:

[flyer43]

Drifting off thread, while browsing without logging in, this particular thread had an advert for the "National Debt Line" at the bottom of it! Psychic or what?:ooh:

[Aucky]

..... should probably forward that on to [email protected] :E

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Well, one of our 5 full-time pilots is on managed hours as he's reached his 800/year limit. Some of us are getting close to 700... so yes, there is one unit which is pretty busy :ok:

[AnFI]

".... one unit which is pretty busy"
doesn't sound like a free market operation, more like a 'state' funded exercise, the 'real world' is a bit harder, but good luck to you

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Cutting, AnFI... :yuk:

The 'unit' is a commercial outfit that's been around since 1963, is owned by a US company and is as far from state-operated as you can get.

...but if your real world is harder, perhaps you're in the rwong real world.

[ShyTorque]

The twin engined world is very busy.

[AnFI]

T&B
Fairy neuf, good for you, no aspertion casting intended
:D

[TeeS]

If you need a break Thud, I'm available for freelance nowadays :-)

TeeS