Cleveland Police go it alone!!!!!!!!

[DEGRADE]

:ok:Common sense from one police force at last!!:Dhttp://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2008/05/23/police-to-go-it-alone-with-air-support-unit-84229-20965284/

[Droopy]

Somehow I don't think this is the end of this story. It'll be interesting to see what next from N'bria and Durham.

[A.Agincourt]

Excellent


Best Wishes

[Max Shutterspeed]

Bloody 'Ell....

Glad to see that someone's got the stones to do it. Just hope they can find the dough.

MS

[Pan Euro]

A very brave decision and one that must suceed, well done and good luck:ok:

[Fortyodd2]

Good Decision, Well done. Nice to see that you've managed to retain some senior officers in possession of good old fashioned leadership and common sense. :D

[sunnywa]

A good decision for policing and I hope it gets the right backing from the brass and pollies to make it a success.

Get stuck in. :D:D:D

[Fly_For_Fun]

Common sense from one police force at last!!


I agree. 2 fingers up to the short sighted bean counters and senior officers.

[Fortyodd2]

OF course, if Cleveland are going to go it alone and no longer contribute to the Northumbrian end, the question now is, can Northumbria/Durham afford to continue without them???

Is there a senior officer now beavering away on a career enhancing powerpoint presentation to show that it can/can't be done? :\

[ShyTorque]

I concur, with a hearty "Well done!" to the CC responsible for his foresight in insisting on continued air support. :ok:

I wonder how long it will be before an adjacent CC goes cap in hand asking for a little cross-border help?

[R1Tamer]

Noticed in the press recently that Cleveland plan to have their own ASU operational by next March. What kind of time frame will it take for them to get the PAOC in place and briefly what does it entail.

R1Tamer

[wright123]

Re the costs, some new information has just been released by the CC from the small Cleveland Police force.

Information Courtesy of Cleveland Police, and the CPA Councillor McLuckie (£100k pa expenses man) ;

3.1 In September 2008, Cleveland Police Authority placed an order for a new helicopter to replace our present aircraft. The new helicopter is a Eurocopter EC135 P2i which was part of a bulk purchase of 6 aircraft. The specification of each of these aircraft was designed by bringing experts together from police aviation and procurement. The subsequent aircraft were all then identical which will save costs over their lifetime when it comes to any alterations that are required.
3.2
Following the acceptance process in December, the aircraft was finally accepted on the 4th January 2011
and arrived in Cleveland the same day. The new aircraft is now fully operational in the Force area. This is a major success story for the Force and the Police Authority.
1
3.3
In respect of the payment schedule, Cleveland Police have now paid all sums to Eurocopter apart from a small retention portion which will be paid in 12 months time assuming no issues develop.
3.4
Cleveland have received a guaranteed trade in for our existing helicopter of £1million and if it subsequently is resold for more than this amount, then Cleveland would receive 50% of this profit, less any transactional costs. In the present market it is unknown if we will receive any extra funds from the sale.
3.5
Cleveland Police were awarded a 40% grant towards the purchase of this new helicopter which has been received in full.

Implications

4.1 Financial

The table below shows the payments made for the helicopter: Payment

Date
Amount

Deposit (10%)
April 2009
£518k

Home Office Grant Received
July 2010
£1,596k

‘Accepted’ payment
July 2010
£3.6m
‘Delivery’ Payment
Jan 2011
£964k

‘Trade-in’ of current helicopter
Dec 2010 / Jan 2011
£1m

Retention payment
January 2012
£0.1m



= £5,182,000

4.2 The fluctuations in the exchange rate of Sterling versus both the Euro and US Dollar had the potential to impact significantly on the overall cost of the helicopter purchase. However rates have proven more stable and so this has not adversely affected the overall costs.

4.3 There are no further financial implications arising from this report.

4.4 Diversity and Equal Opportunities

There are no diversity or equal opportunities implications arising from this report.

4.5 Human Rights Act

There are no Human Rights Act implications arising from this report.

4.6 Sustainability

There are no sustainability implications arising from this report.

4.7 Risk

There are no risk implications arising from this report.

2 3

5 Conclusions

5.1 The purchase of a new helicopter is a major success for a relatively small force. The helicopter we now own and operate is the most advanced in the world and will have a major benefit to Policing in Cleveland.

Sean Price

Chief Constable

http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/admin/uploads/attachment/16_February_2011-Item%206%20-%20Procurement%20Update%20in%20relation%20to%20the%20Purchas e%20of%20the%20New%20Helicopter.pdf
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And this is the same Chief Constable who is in the process of sacking 230 experienced cops!
:ouch:

[pants on fire...]

Sounds like they need some Squirrels or Jetrangers in order to meet the budget requirements?

Or just eliminate helicopters entirely. It's a tough choice when you have no money! :ooh:

[props stopped]

I hadn't seen the latest report from Chief Constabule Price regarding Cleveland's new EC135 G-CPAS up here in smoggy, but after using my large calcualtor to crunch those numbers from that web link, I make that nearly £8 MILLION with the grant and trade in against the old bucket G-NESV included to pay for the latest flymo.

Is that the cheapest deal the home office could get out of Eurocopter for the new 6 ship deal? I thought by buying in bulk the cost came down?

£7,778,000 Thats a lot of Peso's in anyones money!

There goes my council tax bill for next year. All Paid for by Cleveland's poor pensionaires but operated around the country by NPAS and BTP free of charge.

I bet Ms Tilton of the shiney dress attire could have offered a better discount especially if Joep was about meeting and greeting.

How much does a new MD 902 Police equipped Explorer come in at these days? anyone down at PAS know?

If its cheaper than 8 million quid I would have thought she would have cornered the police market with her NOTARS.

I'm neither pro 135 or 902 but am a little concerned at the public money being spent up here in smoggy cleveland.
:hmm:

[lynx no more]

Props, you and your clan were robbed, that Mr Price and the other fella the police authority councillor McDuckie or whatever he's called up there, must have very deep pockets paying £5,182,000 in cash for his latest must have 135 :eek:

I'll ask around Staverton when I'm next in, unless Henk is online and can answer the question ---- how much is a police 902 Exploder these days?????????

I'll go 50/50 and say that Henk will do one for you at £4 mill.

[What Limits]

I make it 2.5 mill, I think thats pretty cheap for a fully loaded EC135 ready to fly!

[J.A.F.O.]

Limits, I'm with you, I make it £2,486,000 paid so far with £100,000 held back for 12 months. That's a good deal, I think.

Even without trade-in and home office grant it's reasonable given current exchange rates (and almost £3,000,000 less than props stopped suggested).

[Pan Euro]

Props....Just because you add the Cleveland figures up to nearly 8 million don't be under the illusion that all 6 cost that amount. As pointed out by others that is not an entirely correct figure but I can assure you that those who fixed the price against currncy fluctuations spent nowhere near that figure. As for 902s .. after a full and fair procurement process the best value aircraft was chosen.

[Fly_For_Fun]

And the prettiest.

[props stopped]

I know it was late when I was number crunching so will try again.
These are the figures as given by CC Price on the Cleveland website of the cash paid from what I can see.

£0518,000 deposit paid.
£3,600,000 payment made.
£0964,000 delivery payment.
=£5,082,000 without trade in, or retention payment.

£1,000,000 trade in.
£1,596,000 Home Office grant
=£2,596,000

So from what I can read between those lines is that Cleveland Police actually paid £5,082,000 cash without the next £100k retention payment to be handed over.

What was the actual price paid by others?
How much is a new police role equipped EC135 - £5, 6 or 7 million?

Whats a normal 135 cost without the kit on, I thought they were at least £5m?

[Gas Generator]

Props

With mental skills of an enormity never seen before in police circles can I suggest you are either already part of NPAS or highly sort after by that team.

Good on yer.:confused:

[J.A.F.O.]

Props, I'm going to go slowly, here.

If you give someone £5082000 and they give you £1000000 then you've spent £4082000.

With me so far?

Okay, now someone else gives you £1596000 and you've actually got £2486000 less than when you started.

See?

So, while a new role equipped 135 might come in at around £5 million, it cost the police Authority half that in cash.

[Fly_For_Fun]

You probably have a couple of years of repairs under warranty, so running costs of "old v new" may well be less.

[timex]

Props, you do realise that the T1 had to go, the CAA dictated all Police A/C were to be SPIFR. Can't remember by what exact date, so Cleveland and the other T1/P1 users got together to buy in bulk, therefore saving money.

[props stopped]

JAFO, I can read normal size print thank you, even if I dont work on the west coast.

My point if you had missed it WAS....

Why would Clevelands CC Mr Price, PAY eurocopter £5m+ which IS what HIS REPORT actually states if it was as cheap as you think?
A friend at HQ up at Ladgate Lane tells me that is the figure that Cleveland coughed up.

The dates of THE "PAYMENTS MADE" are listed for all to see on the Chiefs report. (that bold print is for JAFO) ;)

The "trade in and HO grant" figures are also listed, but I didnt include them as I presumed the 135 must have cost more than the £5+ million ACTUALLY PAID out.

My question to anyone "who may know these things" IS.....how much is a role equipped police EC135P2 which is what Cleveland purchased? I know all about the T1 and why it was put out to pasture, and it wasnt because it was dog rough at the end.

If I was paying for a new car/helicopter, I wouldnt be giving someone extra cash which was listed, only for them to return it later....catch my drift JAFO and I'm typing as slowly as I can ;)

As for working for NPAS, I'm open to offers as long as it doesnt invlove anymore 12 hour night shifts up at Sleepy Hollow without a comfy bed as those office chairs were not very comfortable at 3am up in the north east, and the ghosts of Hangar 1 kept everyone awake as well!

[Senior Pilot]

Props,

I feel that you should read the CC's document a little more carefully: the list is of "Payments", which tabulates both payments out and payments in.

Poor compilation of the figures in the report, I agree, but Cleveland have (as stated clearly by many already) purchased a new machine for a capital outlay by the Force of only £2.486m. The guaranteed trade in of £1m may become more, and the Force will receive 50% of any amount above this figure less transactional costs, which would further reduce the £2.486m of the purchase.

[props stopped]

Senior Pilot, thank you for that.

I'll have another word with my contact up at HQ tomorrow as they said McLuckie is a fan of PFI but even he had to stump up the cash this time.

I'm still curious as to how much a new 135 police role equipped a/c is from Macs, I mean EC uk?

I'm going for a lie down now its well past my bed time with all these millions of 00000's and the extra large print I've been looking at ;)

NPAS let me know if you need anyone who is good with a calcualtor :ok:

[props stopped]

The boro will do anything to pull the fans in these days ;)

Stakeholder Event photo (http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/Admin/uploads/attachment/2010_Stakeholder_Event/00593130.jpg)

[props stopped]

And this is Clevelands seaside HLS, sun optional :cool:

http://www.cleveland.police.uk/_assets/images/Specialist-Units/helicopterphoto6.JPG

[handysnaks]

The boro will do anything to pull the fans in these days
You don't want to p!ss that pilot off Props, he bends girders with his bare hands!

[props stopped]

That pic seems to have grown in size!
Girders eh?
Ah yes Iron Bru, I've heard of it.

From what the local paper says, he may have to dust off that CV as McLuckie the lead councillor on the CPA says that they ae looking very closely at the air operations unit with the latest gov cutbacks, so he may be able to add that little snippet to his CV.
:confused:

[props stopped]

This was the latest idea from Cleveland Police at their stake holder event.

Speed Dating!

I wonder if they brought in a consultant to dream that one up?
Air Support got £940

Look for the 11.20am event.

2010-11 Stakeholder Event (http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/recent-events/stakeholder-2010)

[J.A.F.O.]

Props

I'm sorry, I can't tell you how much it cost any more times than I have already. I've lost the will to try; you really do have all the numbers that you need.

[Fly_For_Fun]

JAFO, I would give up now, he is a lost cause.

[wright123]

Props is a gentleman of the avaition world and digs at him are below the belt especially if the poster is not a commercial pilot himself. :=

I read the same cleveland report and came up with the same numbers but then noticed the part about the Home office paying 40% towards the purchase in the text. Its badly written or McLuckie has paid over the odds?

Props has probably been told by his source up in the ivory towers (LZ hq) that its costing Cleveland over five million this year including the £2 million a year unit running costs.

We've both been there pacing the floor day after day waiting for the chase of the century to come in, but ended up putting the lettle on instead, along with about 40 other bored pilots who have left both north east offices.

They should have kept the Islander, at least it was paid for even if a little loud :}

[wright123]

Just noticed the following PDF's which include articles on NPAS some may not know about. Cleveland are aware it will cost them a lot more money for such a small force with a new a/c.

16 February 2011 (http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/cleveland-police-authority/panels-and-business/strategic-air-support-panel/16-feb-2011)

Report of the Chief Constable to the Chair and Members
of the Strategic Air Support Panel
16th February 2011
Executive & Presenting Officer: Mr David Pickard, Assistant Chief Constable (Crime & Operations)
Status: For information
National Air Support Service Update
1.
Purpose
1.1 To update Members on the latest developments with the proposals for a National Air Support Service.
2.
Recommendations
2.1 That Members note the contents of the report.
3. Reasons
3.1 A briefing document was presented to Chief Constables Council on 15th October 2010 in respect of a National Police Air Service (NPAS) and this was supported by most Chief Constables. On the 20th October Chief Constable Marshall presented some elements of NPAS to Unit Executive Officers (UEO’s) and other representatives from every unit in the Country. At this presentation it was reported that there were six Chief Constables who expressed reservations.
3.2 Since these meetings there has been little further information available. There has been one further meeting, chaired by the NPIA, with representatives of the North East forces on 24th November. At the meeting were representatives from Newcastle, Cleveland, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and Humberside.
3.3 The NPIA reported that there had been a lot of concern from many forces regarding the financial data within the paper that had been presented to Chief Constables Council. Much of the meeting was spent trying to explain how the financial assumptions had been made. It was also reported that it was now very likely that South Yorkshire would retain their helicopter, when it had originally been identified to be withdrawn.
3.4
During the meeting the NPIA requested that forces start to look at joint pilotage and maintenance contracts. It was reported that there would be no savings in the North until other aircraft had been withdrawn from the South East of the Country, or if some savings could be made from the use of joint contracts. The NPIA confirmed that we would need to pay the higher identified cost (as detailed in the paper to Chief Constables’ Council) until at least 2016.
3.5
In January ACC Pickard met with Chief Constable Marshall and was provided with a further update regarding the national picture and it was suggested there was now less opposition to the plans than there had been previously. It was also agreed that NPIA would visit Cleveland Police and go through the financial data with the Force to try and explain the position.
3.6
At present it is still believed that by joining the National Air Service, we would be paying £535,000 more than our present budget, for the first 4 or 5 years, and then £300,000 more than our present budget after that. It is also still the intention that we would operate only 20 hours per day, with cover from other forces in the North East.
3.7
This finance meeting has been arranged for the 2nd February. A further meeting involving finance representatives from all the North East forces, together with the NPIA is scheduled for the 24th February. It is understood there may be some further detail presented to Chief Constables Council in March.
3.8
The position nationally at this time is that it is understood that only two regions will be joining the National Air Support Service at the start and these are Central and the North West. Other regions have stated they cannot join at this time for a number of reasons, such as the forthcoming Olympic Games. NPIA would like to see the North East join, but this appears dependent partly on the outcome of the finance meetings.
4. Implications
4.1 Financial
There are significant financial implications arising from this report, if the current proposals, as outlined above, go ahead. There are no further financial implications arising from this report to report to Members.
4.2 Diversity and Equal Opportunities
There are no diversity or equal opportunities implications arising from this report.
4.3 Human Rights Act
There are no Human Rights Act implications arising from this report.
4.4 Sustainability
There are no sustainability implications arising from this report.
4.5 Risk
There are substantial risk implications arising from this report in connection with the financial risk, the reputation risk and also the operational cover issue.
5. Conclusions
5.1
The plans for a National Air Support Service are still being progressed and it is still the sponsor’s aim of having a fully operational national unit in place by April 2012. The aims of the scheme appear laudable and with the present financial pressures there could be the opportunity to make significant savings for the Force. However with the current understood financial proposal, this would actually significantly increase the cost to Cleveland.
Sean Price
Chief Constable3.7
The obvious immediate benefits of the new aircraft have been the fact that it operates higher so is less intrusive to the public. It is already starting to have a bigger role in surveillance operations. The effectiveness on tasks is increased as we are able to provide better quality images. Due to our height and the quality of the camera, we are often able to see several incidents in different areas without changing our location. Over the next few months officers will become more proficient using the technology and also in the best ways to operate the aircraft, which will no doubt lead to a more effective service to the Force.
3.8
The unit had a 20% cut in the flying hours which was reported at the last meeting. We are managing to still provide a first class service to the Force, but at times have to manage demand by regular dialogue with officers present at incidents.
3.9
The revenue budget for this year is very tight as we have had a number of unexpected items to pay for. It is still expected to come in slightly over budget, but this will be covered within the carry-forward from last year which was requested for this purpose.
3.10
Appendix A details the performance statistics and flying hours. The use of the aircraft has resulted in the equivalent of 116,021 officer hours being saved across the Force during October to December. This would equate to a cost saving of approximately £794,192 compared to officers on the ground being deployed to the same incidents. However, it should be noted that by using the aircraft we are able to undertake a greater number of searches, many of which we would be unable to undertake without the helicopter.

[Thomas coupling]

A new 135P2+ costs between 5.2 and 5.6 million fully equipped dependent on whether the final cost was protected against currency fluctuations:suspect:
Some forces warranted against euro fluctuations and others failed to do so.

[J.A.F.O.]

especially if the poster is not a commercial pilot himself. :=

What the hell does that have to do with being able to do basic arithmetic? http://www.honda-forums.com/images/smiley_icons/wanking.gif

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

£7,778,000 that's nearly £8 million!

you need a new calculator or an idea what your going on about. Which ever is easier :ugh:

[Phil Space]

Cleveland Police area covers approximately 230 square miles and has a population of over 554,000.

How the hell can they justify spending all that money on a helicopter?

[Senior Pilot]

Cleveland Police area covers approximately 230 square miles and has a population of over 554,000.

How the hell can they justify spending all that money on a helicopter?


Since you seem to be on a mission to stir on Rotorheads without showing much in the way of commonsense, maybe you could read previous posts and see this as a justification:

The use of the aircraft has resulted in the equivalent of 116,021 officer hours being saved across the Force during October to December. This would equate to a cost saving of approximately £794,192 compared to officers on the ground being deployed to the same incidents.

[Phil Space]

Well if those Cleveland numbers stack up we have a whole new business model
then!

[bolkow]

£4.380.000 is as I understand it the cost of a brand shiny new fully equipped EC135T.2+

[props stopped]

To the drivers and back seat drivers who have pointed out the error of my calcualations, I stand corrected. I will sit in the naughty corner and make the tea for the rest of the shift :bored:

From what I have been told the Chief and his councillor lackies around the large authority table up at Ladgate Lane are once again planning to pay more than expected in 2012.

They will be paying over £5m for 2011 with the units £2m running costs. Wright123 you were right :ok:

They had to add £0.5m last year when the EC airframe and PBH contracts were split into 2 seperate contracts courtesy of ECUK.

That took the cost of Cleveland Police going into alone rising from £800k as a 2008-9 NEASU consortium member (started at less than £400k in 1995) to the current £2m a year to cover the small "ex county" of Cleveland. Its now 4 seperate councils all paying into the Police pot.

The latest Claveland report states they are expecting to pay even more which means my council tax will have to go up AGAIN, as the gov has no money.

http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/admin/uploads/attachment/16_February_2011-Item%205%20-%20National%20Air%20Support%20Service%20Update.pdf
ITEM 3.6

"At present it is still believed that by joining the National Air Service, we would be paying £535,000 more than our present budget, for the first 4 or 5 years, and then £300,000 more than our present budget after that. It is also still the intention that we would operate only 20 hours per day, with cover from other forces in the North East."

As for JAFO and his new little handshake sign, I've come across agreed passengers before who used to say "look over there on the RIGHT 9'o'clock! yes they often didnt know their right from their lefts. But back to the thread again, intead of the bickering.

I'm still open to offers NPAS, but you may have to use a red pen on my calculations now and again :O

To thomas coupling, thank you for giving an accurate price for a new EC135p2 ;
"A new 135P2+ costs between 5.2 and 5.6 million fully equipped dependent on whether the final cost was protected against currency fluctuationshttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cwm13.gif
Some forces warranted against euro fluctuations and others failed to do so."

[Coconutty]

Did I read it wrong ?

To me the report looks like Cleveland Poice are saying that IF they join NPAS
( which is supposed to be about saving money ), then it will cost them MORE than their exisiting budget :uhoh:
( Para 3.6 of the report & Conclusion at Para 5.1 of the report ),
by the figures quoted of £535,000 per year for the first four or five years,
then "only" £300,000 per year more for each year thereafter,
hence the reason for calling for further meetings to clarify the dubious figures
used by NPAS in their orignal report to the Chief Constables,
but if they DIDN'T join NPAS, then their exisiting budget,
planned for forthcoming years, would be less than with NPAS ?? :confused:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[J.A.F.O.]

As for JAFO and his new little handshake sign, I've come across agreed passengers before who used to say "look over there on the RIGHT 9'o'clock! yes they often didnt know their right from their lefts.

Oh, was that me? No, didn't think so. How is that relevant then props?

My little avatar wasn't directed at you, anyway. It was directed at someone who thought they could wag their finger at me because I had the temerity to point out that you'd got your sums wrong.

[lynx no more]

Props, I used to fly up that way while doing my bit for Her Maj, but in the finer N.York's Dishforth palace years ago.
Was tempted by an offer of some contract ASU flying up in the north east a while ago, but heard on the grapevine while in Oxford that there were quiet a few jafo's in the geordie and smoggy empires who were very hard work, and thought they were flying it.
Is that why they go through so many pilots at those 2 north east bases, or is something else going on?
Money seems the same all over the country except the MET who are well paid.
The pilot turnover up there is well over the odds over the last 15 years, so there must be something wrong somewhere for over 40 drivers to vanish for one reason or another? I did hear about 2 rtemporary elief pilots who were contracted in who both refused to go back due to the hostile obs!
Not so sure the smoggy base would be the place to move to with the problems of further funding, but I'd jump at the chance for another N.Yorks placement if an ASU ever happened in that county.

[wright123]

What a waste of time and money using a helicopter to move this lot on. The housing estates and towns in the area would have been a lot quieter if they had left the teenagers on the beach :ugh:

BBC News - Police helicopter ends Teesside teenage beach party (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-12659103)

A couple of dogs might have been a cheaper option if they were really causing problems.

Instead of using more asu budget hours to visit this nursery (has happened 4 times to different schools in the last year), wouldnt a video of the asu operations have been a wiser move in saving money, instead of dropping into a NURSERY!! Or was it an observer or pilot dropping in to see their kids to impress? :rolleyes:

Police Helicopter Drops In | Yarm School - Independent Nursery, Preparatory School, Senior School and Sixth Form in Tees Valley, North East England (http://www.yarmschool.org/general-information/school-news/police-helicopter-drops-in/)

Cleveland Police must have money to burn while everyone else is cuttting back :rolleyes:

[timex]

Was the A/C tasked specifically for the Beach task?
How many other assets were available?
Were the dogs elsewhere?

School visit, if you can combine a visit with another job or a land away why not?

[props stopped]

Yes it was specfically tasked to the fly the beach flag job. An expensive Flying panda as usual!!!!!!! Not exactly a misper search was it?

As for the recent Nursery helicopter visit, the daily log for the day says it was the job of the day, and wasnt combined with any other task!

The same observers with lots of badges have done the same thing with 4 different schools in the not so sprawling county of Cleveland last year as well.

Memo to Chief Constabule Price and his merry men, havent you heard of a video or power point presentation like the Northumbrian fine men do? instead of wasting £1500 per hour to drop in on a colleagues kids to pose infront of the teachers? :mad:

I'm sure there is something written in the CAA files about the dangers of landing on school fields with kids about. Cleveland will be giving jollies around the school next!!!!!

When Northumbria ran the constortium show there wasnt any of these posing trips to schools with the a/c! The office duty chap was usually elected to spend a few hours giving talks and going to the meeting by car not helicopter!

Memo to Mr NPAS, I hope you get a grip of this waste of resources in Cleveland when you come to power :ugh:

[props stopped]

What a pose, medals and all :rolleyes:

Gazette Live - News - Local News - Cleveland Police’s air operations unit visits Stockton schools (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2009/06/15/cleveland-police-s-air-operations-unit-visits-stockton-schools-84229-23870389/)

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/gazettelive2/jun2009/8/8/police-helicopter-at-oak-tree-school-400112244.jpg

[Flying Pencil]

What medals?

[mickjoebill]

Can someone give a real life break down of costs of the police role equipment?


Mickjoebill

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

So props...whats wrong with showing the tax paying community what there money has gone. Kids and adults alike love to see this type of stuff and it goes a long way to mixing in with the community and that does mean a lot these days.
:ugh:

[lynx no more]

Budgie; I heard that the camera system alone was getting on for a million but cant remember if that was with the service support package?
Then there is airwaves, they are changing systems as we type and how much will that take to sort?
Different dowlink packages, search lights, different forces wanting switches and monitors etc in different places, its never ending.
Power by the hour packages, airframe packages, all add to the ongoing costs, and thats without paying the 30yr service observers who are on more than a pilot with their overtime, and the cost of running the unit, fuel, rent etc.

As for posing at schools, hasnt the Cleveland UEO heard of Best Value, the Chief should be getting a grip of that place and make them take a car to give their speech.

By all means visit schools and show a video of the helicopter, give out some posters, but come on its a complete waste of money to task a £1500 per hour a/c to drop into various schools across Cleveland to pose. :bored:

NPAS I hope you have plans set up for this waste of resources in the not so large ex county of cleveland.
Map of Police Stations (http://194.176.81.173/contact-us/map-stations.aspx)

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

If you take your blinkers off for a moment :cool: and think. The helicopter will not just pop into a school at the over inflated cost you came up with. It would have dropped in whilst on the way back from a task. So now whilst at the school a task comes in closer to where they are now than would have been if they had been at base.
so now less transit time and closer to the task means it's actually cheaper to have been at the school than at base. Open your eyes :rolleyes:

[props stopped]

Mr Budgie, if you knew what went on at Cleveland Police, you would know that these school visits are pre-planned and are not tagged onto tasks which you mention.

The logs show this to be a fact, and all the schools all had to be prepared for the photo call with the press in attendance (more than 4 seperate schools). It is discussed as a planned trip on the force website.

I suggest you take your blinkers off when it comes to what goes on up north, as it might be different down south, but to me its a waste of money.

May I be as bold to make a suggestion to Cleveland's finest and Councillor McLuckie, who spends my taxes.
Organise a coach trip paid for by the school to visit the helicopter at their Sleepy Hollow base, or better still let the schools all know when the yearly Ridewell show is on, and they can attend that as the helicopter is also on display there each year.

"This initiative is part of a Force wide police programme, which will see the Air Operations Unit visit schools in all four districts"

School Pupils get a Flying Visit from Cleveland Police Air Operations Unit (http://www.cleveland.police.uk/news/releases/School-Pupils-get-a-Flying-Visit-from-Cleveland-Police-Air-Operations-Unit%20.aspx)

Schools Get Flying Visit (http://www.cleveland.police.uk/news/releases/release5734.aspx)

Helicopter treat for pupils after Mia wins contest (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/stockton/8784915.Helicopter_treat_for_pupils_after_Mia_wins_contest/)

[DEGRADE]

Prop Stopped. Thank god they were..... Just because you lost your job here at "Sleepy hollow" there is no need for such a vendeta.
Whist some of your points are valid most are not and so twisted from the truth. If you really care for your community you may actually support the machine which you gave so many years too......if you call the unit or pp me I'll be glad to discuss all your points

[Senior Pilot]

Memo to Chief Constabule Price and his merry men, havent you heard of a video or power point presentation like the Northumbrian fine men do? instead of wasting £1500 per hour to drop in on a colleagues kids to pose infront of the teachers? :mad:

Since the Cleveland district is no more than 30nm across, let's say the flight took a maximum of 10 minutes, each way, @ £1500 per hour. Total cost £500, almost certainly lower than half of that estimate depending on the distance to the school(s). Against that would be the option of taking the kids to the ASU by bus: cost, including time out of school, carers, etc? Probably the same! Cost of sending a PR team to the school, including travel costs and man-hours (both in preparation, planning and time on the day), about £300!

The PR of exposing school age kids to Police equipment and the hands-on thrill of actually seeing the machine is inestimable, and to be commended in this PC conscious age. Instead of treating the results (soaring youth crime rates, etc) this is addressing the issue of 'us vs them' at an early and formative stage.

[JuergenP]

Cleveland police do not have the best reputation. I am always glad to leave the boundary.

[tigerfish]

I have been watching the vitreol etched on these threads by Wright & props for a while now. Never have I come across such biased and totally anti rotarycomments before.
My suspicions might well be wrong, but I would invite them to deney any connection with the earlier fixed wing operation that Cleveland used to employ. It finished with a great deal of anger by those involved and for some reason I suspect a cross over here!

Tigerfish

[wright123]

Degrade, Your new here, we all know what its like at Sleepy Hollow, there have been more than 40 drivers through the doors over the years as well as probably a smaller amount of observers for various reasons including Tenure, and most have left of their own accord, granted some were pushed. Didnt PAS start bonding due to it? Props doesnt make it up and he tells me he's too old to be bitter, ask anyone who has worked there, or maybe they dont want to talk about the experience. Just because we are questioning the cost of the current operation doesnt mean we are anti-rotary?

The best value team from Northumbria Police didnt make come to the conclusion that 1 a/c could easily cover the southern Cleveland area over a cuppa. It was looked at closely pver a few months, but rejected by Councillor McLuckie at the meeting between Cleveland and Northumbria, whose officers walked out infront of the waiting press.

Once someone higher up realises that the new Northumbria a/c can easily cover the small county further south the better, and Cleveland Police might not be sacking 230 experienced cops which they are in the process of if they sorted their resources out better. Lets face it, its only 15mins travelling time to Cleveland from Newcastle. Move the new G-CPAS somewhere were it is needed down south, its got to be busier.

As for me being anti rotary-I dont think so but thanks for fishing. Its all about using what little money there is better. Isnt that what NPAS is all about? Use the Northumbria a/c as cover which is what the old consortium bosses suggested, and save the 230 troops on the ground who are currently being sacked in Cleveland. I pity those guys with a family and mortgage :ugh:

[DEGRADE]

Wright123 I did not say you were anti rotary read my post. Not some one elses.

Yes I am reasonably new here as in pprune but "sleepy hollow" I have been here since day 1 when the Plank was replaced so I have a handle on what has and is happening here.. More like 25mins from Newcastle, who might take a bit longer to get to scarborough etc. And I had a mortgage and kids when they wanted to chop a cab, Im certainly glad they didn't. anyway off to bed only a few lock ups last night which would not have happened without g cpas..............

[Coconutty]

... and thats without paying the 30yr service observers who are on more than a pilot with their overtime ...

Just an "observation", but taking the overtime out of the equation,
which is usually to do with staffing levels or covering sickness etc,
isn't a Police Officer with 12 years service on the same wages as one with 30 years ?

A number of forces, due to the cut backs, are now removing the opportunity to retain such experience beyond 30 yrs completely.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

I suggest you take your blinkers off when it comes to what goes on up north, as it might be different down south, but to me its a waste of money.

Makes sense now you read the other posts. Shame you need to rant on a public thread when it appears that people know you. With the crap attitude you have and may well of had. Not sure NPAS needs people like that. :=

[lynx no more]

....Degrade.... ah yes another classic EC135 one line fadec failure.
I noticed that you have changed your sacked comment line to "lost your job" line since last night. Was that under official UEO's guidance or a pc's watchful eye.

I think you will find trying to identify any poster such as Props Stopped on this site will land you in hot water, as I have had my wrist publicly smacked by a moderator in the past for doing the same.

I dont know Props as never made it upto the northern bases but He seems to have a handle on whats happening up north from the official web links he's posted.

Have you been given the nod from powers on high at Cleveland to discuss matters regarding the unit on the phone as "you say" give the unit a call to discuss it with You, or should such a matter be passed onto the UEO or press office? Its not allowed down south.

We are not in the army now you know, and there is a line of command in the police which they do like to follow for discussing such things about Units :=

I've googled the same cleveland police articles Props added after hearing a few horror stories while at Stav and Oxford airports about the regimes up north and the links are all there to see.

I know it was the norm to take a Gazelle into kids schools in the past as HM was paying for it, and you could always put it down as a nav ex, but the trouble is those very young kids will have forgotten what the police helicopter can do ten years later when they are teenagers.

Mickjoebill, I have no official costs from my friends at Oxford but maybe someone from ECUK can provide the Police role equipment costs as I know they follow this site, and they are the people sending out the bills.

[props stopped]

Some more facts on money well spent on policing, or not?

George Orwell's 1984 springs to mind here using the Cleveland Helicopter for 90 minutes as reported here!

The photo speaks volumes.

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/gazettelive2/mar2011/6/5/saltburn-beach-protest-91199632.jpg

The police helicopter was said to be out for an hour and a half. James said: “It costs a fortune to get the helicopter out and there’s no need.”



"The group also argue that the scrambling of a police helicopter was a “waste of taxpayers’ money”.

More facts over 2 pages of the Evening Gazette:
Community policing at its best, think of the overtime which is also mentioned in the comments pages at the bottom of the article.
Saltburn 'rave': Party-goers and police speak - Local News - News - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2011/03/11/saltburn-rave-party-goers-and-police-speak-84229-28319483/)

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Don't you just love the great unwashed. I'm sure in a few years time when they have brought a nice house by the sea and have a little family they will be straight on the phone complaining of the rave on the beach and the fact the police are doing nothing about it. :ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

Just to highlight one thing in props' link;

Student James Budd, 20, said: “They did not ID anybody so they had no proof that anybody was underage.
.
.
A 15-year-old was cautioned for being drunk and disorderly and a 19-year-old was cautioned for causing criminal damage.


Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but in this Orwellian state, isn't the legal drinking age 18? (16 in public, with a meal accompanied by an adult) and as there wasn't a BBQ or any other form of 'meal', illegal things were in fact going on!


I wonder how different the story would have been if a 15 year old body was found washed up on the shore the next morning!

"Local residents complain about Police lack of action during 'Rave on the Beach'...., leading to death of up and coming youth....etc"

[SilsoeSid]

props
More facts over 2 pages of the Evening Gazette:
'Facts' at the Gazette! (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2011/03/11/saltburn-rave-party-goers-and-police-speak-84229-28319483/)


The group also argue that the scrambling of a police helicopter was a “waste of taxpayers’ money”.
Not really a 'fact' is it? :rolleyes:


Officers were said to display pepper spray and batons, although they were not used.
Standard uniform isn't it. Media bollix! :=

Peter Craig, 21, of Darlington, who spoke on behalf of the group, said they did not have enough equipment to put music on so they had intended to sit and chat.
.
.
.
The group allege their gazebo was damaged by police as they tried to take it down and say turntables were also damaged


So, someone forgot that sound systems need power and it looks like they took along CDs instead of records! :ugh:
And it's ok for a 21 year old and a few 50 year olds to sit on the beach chatting to drunken 15 year olds is it! :eek:







Same paper, same event, 3 days earlier

The Gazette 3 days earlier! (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2011/03/07/police-break-up-rave-advertised-on-facebook-84229-28291697/)

The police helicopter was scrambled as it was thought numbers may have been “considerably higher”.


The funniest thing, and one that highlights where these people are coming from is;
He (Peter Craig) said the event could not be legally classed as a rave as there were no “repetitive beats” as set out in legislation banning such gatherings.


He seems to know all his legislation, however fails to notice that it can't even be classed as any kind of music event as there wasn't any! :ugh:
Laughable, especially when the police didn't even call it a rave, that is a word put in by the media, the police called it an unofficial event in a public place.

Peter might have realised this when he said; “There’s a big party that’s in Saltburn every single year at the exact place. It was not much different from that and the police have never stopped it.”

The clue would be that each year, normal law abiding people with no other 'agendas' have licences and permission for this kind of event.


The worrying thing about the whole issue is this,

Officers issued a direction to leave and the crowd - along with a man and woman in their 50s who arranged the rave - dispersed.
.
.
.
Many of these people were under 18 and were drinking alcohol.”



Sounds like a bit of f/book grooming was prevented from going further!


If it takes a helicopter, with its thermal equipment, nitesun and skyshout to prevent young drunken people from stumbling off cliffs, wading out to sea or being taken advantage of, surely that is a good thing, isn't it!

Well done Cleveland Police :ok:

[lynx no more]

Having spent many a happy hour up there in a fine gazelle, I know the beach in question, and if they were north of saltburn towards Redcar and Marske there are no cliffs to fall off. Its flat sand and a few dunes to be exact, a mile or so from the nearest houses.

Google earth will show you the place. Look up Redcar, and then have a look south east along the beach towards Saltburn. The bit inbetween is where it seems to have been according to the report.
There are cliffs further south of Saltburn but not in the area the locals were playing in.

Sounds like a breach of civil liberties to me, and seems a bit over the top and its been well discussed down here. I bet most of us when younger would have been there as well.

We would have left them get on with it, but I suppose someone in the control room wanted a live downlink pic to watch if they were bored up in Cleveland. 90 mins is a bit OTT though.
I'm suprised that large councillor McKluckie of McDuckie whatever he's called, didnt try charging the youths a fee for using the beach for the night, or did he ;)

[SilsoeSid]

Having spent many a happy hour up there in a fine gazelle,

Now I know this character is not the full 'Herfy Handbag'.

Claiming to be a Lynx Pilot, one of Her Majesty's chosen, publicly admitting to 'happy' hours in a Gazelle (out of the Wallop circuit), and even describing the floppy with a positive verb.

What a cad !
(Cuiche admiring dork)
;)




I know it's spelt with a 'Q' but....

[SilsoeSid]

But of course these people don't think about the locals or any consequences of their 'fun'.

From the same Gazette again. (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2011/03/12/farmers-put-on-alert-over-unlicensed-raves-84229-28321664/)


LANDOWNERS are being warned to be vigilant after a foiled attempt to hold a rave ...

The alert comes a week after party-goers, who gathered on Saltburn Beach for a “rave”, were dispersed by police.

Now a rural campaign group is asking farmers and landowners to keep an eye out for any similar gatherings.

The warning comes from the Country Land and Business Association (CLA).

...for colleagues in the south of England it had been “very distressing” for farmers and landowners, she said.

“Raves can cause a great deal of disruption and often result in damage being caused. Frequently the landowner is left to clear up the site and bear the considerable costs.”


Anyway, 2 final things.
1. I don't hear the locals complaining about the revellers being moved on.
2. Do you still think it ok for some 50 year olds to organise a party on f/book to get 15 year olds drunk? :suspect:



Once again,
Well done Cleveland Police :ok:

[lynx no more]

Handbags at dawn is it Silsy ;)

No matter how many times you write "Well done Cleveland" in very large text, it still wont wash I'm afraid.

Its a tiny state, county, council, whatever they are calling it these days, and flying the flag for 90 minutes over some kids wanting a beach party is a waste of the public's money in anyone's book, they wil be putting up extra speed camera's to pay for it next :hmm:

Try a different hook and you might get a bite on another thread, but dont you know there where a lot of gazelles flying far from Middle Wallooop circuit in my day :E

Watch out for them cliffs lad :ok:
http://www2.clikpic.com/chrisleonard/images/_MG_8861-two.jpg

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

No matter how many times you write "Well done Cleveland" in very large text, it still wont wash I'm afraid.

But only with you and that doesn't really matter now does it. :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Linksy,

Bad drills m8, you have clearly forgotten the Lynx Pilot mantra;

'Once a Lynx driver, never admit to being a Floppy jock'
:ok:

[DEGRADE]

I was there......5 mins on task gave numbers to control room.......later on the back of a different task another 15 mins while officers went in to arrest/move on offenders.

I hope that is clear and we can chill.

:ugh:

[Coconutty]

The absence of cliffs makes it perfectly safe then ?

Under age drinkers, others committing crime, they might not fall off a cliff,
but what about being dragged off into those perfectly safe sand dunes ?

( No-one ever comes to harm in sand dunes do they ?
Not even apparantly responsible people, stone cold sober in full daylight ? )

Bottom line is they were gathering illegally, the Police took action, and no-one came to grief,
other than a few non-locals pride being hurt because they couldn't do as they pleased :ugh:

Sid - 50 year olds organising a "gathering" where there is under age drinking,
by children in an intended "party" atmosphere - what could possibly go wrong - in or out of the dunes :rolleyes:


There was a "documentary" a few years ago called "Sex & Violence" -
introduced by someone appearing to be in their 50's, filmed amongst sand dunes .....

7OGf-r9fA0Y

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[morris1]

there were quiet a few jafo's in the geordie and smoggy empires who were very hard work, and thought they were flying it.

Hmmmm with an attitude like that, please please stay wherever you are..!

Its a police machine, to be used for police work, and yes that includes PR visits to schools. Any pilot refering to me (seriously) as a JAFO, after 22 years police service and 10 years of that doing police work from the air is likely to lose some teeth.

As a pilot you have your skills, as a cop, I have mine.
If a pilot flies the a/c inappropriately, ineffectively, or is just a lazy tw@t who has to be bullied into doing some work, then i'll say something.

I'll assume your some sort ex officer type who came into police aviation in the early years when you could get away with behaving like that.
Good riddens to your type, welcome to the newbies who are coming thru who understand that theyre not owed a living from the police purse, and are willing and able to adapt and learn.

[wright123]

As there is a commentator who says he was there on the night from Cleveland Air Operations unit, could they inform the pprune readers if the pilots contract was given to PAS?

If so how does it affect NPAS and the national system?
Was it put out to tender? :confused:

[timex]

Why do you want to know?

[props stopped]

Why you may ask, even the chief mr price is aware of public feeling with regards to money being spent in Cleveland.

He lists this outline for capital spending. I noticed Air Support is over £4m and one of the highest expenditures by the small force.
The Capital Plan is set out in the table below.
Capital Plan 2009-13

2009-10

2010-11
2011-12
2012-13
£000s
£000s
EXPENDITURE
Air Support Programme
1,500,000
4,505,000
100,000

http://www.cleveland.police.uk/downloads/Publications-Policing-Plans/2009-12_Policing_Plan_inc._performance_section.pdf

In this Cleveland Police Authority report Councillor McLuckie states he wont make any cuts to officers in 2009. He is now making 230 POLICE officers redundant.
Police authority chair pledges ?no officer cuts? (http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/latest-news/police-authority-chair-pledges-no-officer-cuts?calendarMonth=2011-3)

CC Sean Price comments on the fact that the public are becoming concerned about the spending taking place in Cleveland.
"I am acutely aware of how tight finances have become for many local families and how even the smallest percentage rises in the local precept can impact. Similarly, I am aware that every pound the police take from the Exchequer nationally is a pound that doesn’t go to Health or Education or other public services"
Statement from the Chief Constable Sean Price regarding Project I (http://www.cleveland.police.uk/news/releases/release6686.aspx)

I havent heard Councillor McLuckie saying he will also stop claiming his vast expenses?
BBC News - Cleveland Police Authority agrees to cut 230 officers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-12566943)

I noticed we have some police officers and Cleveland staff commenting on this site, could they provide more accurate figures about HOW much Cleveland Air Support costs each year?

I know it was £800,000 when they were part of the consortium as the figures are well published by that fine force Northumbria, but how much does the unit now cost?

I believe the pilotage is over £500,000 a year.

The a/c insurance must be very high with leaving the helicopter on the pad all night next to a chainlink fence! How much does that cost alone?

Mr McLuckie also went on the record at a CPA meeting to say they had to find an EXTRA £500,000 per year for the seperate new PBH engine and airframe contracts since leaving the large 3 force consortium.

Does this combined with the hangar, office, fuel costs come to nearly £2,000,000 a year?

I would have thought the various police officers commentating here, would not want to see those 230 collegues lose their jobs in Cleveland due to them not wanting to share an a/c with Northumbria and Durham.

Facts and figures please.

[morris1]

He is now making 230 POLICE officers redundant.


Facts and figures please.


police officers cannot be made redundant, they are crown servants.
If this force is talking about losing Police Officer establishment posts, they can only be lost by natural wastage, ie not recruiting.

Are the posts you are talking about civilian staff ?

[props stopped]

Civilian posts have alreay been moved to Steria private firm.

The 230 police officers are losing their jobs as mentioned by the CPA chief chap here.
BBC News - Cleveland Police Authority agrees to cut 230 officers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-12566943)

If it can happen in Cleveland it can happen in any force I would have thought? :confused:

[morris1]

No, these are not redundancies...
Police officers are crown servants and CANNOT be made redundant..
That applies to all england and wales.

the piece reads
Cleveland Police Authority said the force's officer establishment would reduce from 1,727 to 1,572 over the next 12 months.


These posts will be lost by natural wastage.

[SilsoeSid]

What price a life?


"THE dramatic rescue of a vulnerable woman stuck in a woodland gully was captured on camera from a police helicopter."

LINK (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2011/03/17/cleveland-police-wood-rescue-caught-on-film-84229-28353253/)

YouTube - Woman rescued from woodland, with the help of Cleveland Police Air Support Unit

Air support, uniformed officers and Cleveland and Scarborough Search and Rescue team staff were deployed to Hutton Woods. After a lengthy search, staff in the helicopter spotted someone lying face down in a ditch.

The aircraft landed and one officer climbed down to where the woman was found semi-conscious and breathing but suffering from the effects of the cold.

.
.
Inspector Simon Wilkinson, head of the air support unit, said: “This was an excellent piece of teamwork involving several other agencies but without the involvement and actions of the air support officers this lady may not have been found at all.

“There is every chance we saved her life.”


No doubt the usual characters will notice the phrase, 'After a lengthy search' and have something to say about it, however all I will say, and it is something that I have been told off by lynx no more for saying before, is;

Well done Cleveland Police.
:ok:

[lynx no more]

Silsy I havent told anyone off, I just agree that all air support resources should be available to all forces where ever they are needed especially where casualties are concerned.

A pat on the back for the job, medals all round, and I would make the tea for one and all :ok:

If I55 hadnt gone over to Boosbeck to look for the person, it would have been twice the miles for E flight from Leconfield 202 SAR squadron to the south of the scene.

As for the beach party I think one of these cops would have blended in nicely, and saved a few bob. Do they teach this at police training college I wonder ;)

I think the 3rd one gets the vote....can your observer move like this? enjoy.

YouTube - Cop Caught Dancing on camera

YouTube - Dancing traffic cop Do D'at Thang Cop

YouTube - Funky Cop

Keep up the good work everyone :ok:
(see how big those letters are Silsy ;) )

[SilsoeSid]

lynxnomore;
Silsy I havent told anyone off,

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted;
No matter how many times you write "Well done Cleveland" in very large text, it still wont wash I'm afraid.



I just agree that all air support resources should be available to all forces where ever they are needed especially where casualties are concerned.

If you were to read various posts on other threads that you visit, you will learn that this happens anyway and was happening before and would continue.


Anyway, nice to see that you've learnt to stop digging.
:ok:

[Phil Space]

I'm back:ok:

Cleveland,Humberside and all the other little places where 'Silsoe Sid' wants to
go on another 'mission' need grounding.

Time to take on board the rational arguments of Props stopped and Lynx no more.

Now before the Coconutter and Silsoe try their bully boy tactics I'll explain
my police air operation experience.
When they were wee boys in their prams I had my aircraft parked next to Julian Verity's sole B206 at Cardiff airport. Mid 1980's and police operations were ad hoc.I had quite a few jolley's with Julian in the days before he moved to Tremorfa.They were BBC and not police paid trips.

In those days South Wales police would only hire a helicopter when they had justify it unlike today when Silsoe will get airborne for another stolen car or some drunken phone call saying Mr Coconutter has not come home and is missing.
(Only to appear next morning when he reveals he crashed out on his
mates sofa and he has a head like a coconut).

In the mid 1990's I was a BBC senior producer in the midlands and was involved in producing a programme that involved the Leicestershire police
ASU. From my experience this has to be the joint force model.
Taxpayers can see why and where the helicopter is used on a daily basis.
Police Helicopter in Leicestershire - Where we've been (http://helicopter.leics.police.uk/where/)
There are quite a few older pilots that supply paid advice to MP's while you just want to burn more turbine time.
Theresa May knows the scams and the waste of money on 'training' etc that
goes on.
Wake up and smell the coffee Silsoe.
The writing is on the wall.

regards

Phil

[timex]

Great so you worked for the BBC, no bias there then. Renowned for its "Impartial reporting...":ugh::ugh::ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

Mid 80's, my pram happened to be a Gazelle :p

[Phil Space]

Well let me just say that I am employed now to supply
advice to government ministers:ok:

(To put it bluntly I do not normally discuss business with cab drivers:ok:)

[Phil Space]

Silsoe Sid
Mid 80's, my pram happened to be a Gazelle
Not your pram Silsoe..government pram.
We private pilots own and fly them now unlike the cab drivers:ok:

[Phil Space]

I guess we are opposite sides Silsoe.
You drive and I advise.

You'll never know the fun of flying where when and how you want.

Your bully boy tactics don't cut ice with me.

Reminds me of a situation 25 years ago at Brize. I parked my private aircraft between a couple of Hercs only to have some lower ranks put chocks around the wheels. No need I said. 'Thats their job' I was told.

Now you are not in a position to argue with me on police air operations. I am not employed like you to drive plod around his patch.

The truth is you are not allowed to comment on forums like this on police air operations or strategy.

If you want to fly a helicopter like us private pilots then no problem but you must remember you are paid by the public to fly and must not get involved in discussions of police air ops.

In two words Silsoe..zip it:ok:

[timex]

So the Govt employs someone with no actual experience to advise on Police Aviation. Shock horror!!

[Phil Space]

Silsoe is paid to fly for the police. He is not allowed to post on here regarding police air ops.:ok:



Last time I checked, I hadn't seen your name listed as a Moderator. I was going to moderate this and a number of other posts in this thread, but I think that we will all benefit from them being left for others to form their own opinion of you.

Senior Pilot
Rotorheads Moderator

[J.A.F.O.]

Phil, you come across as a complete ar$e and it frightens me that you should be advising anyone in any position of power. Your knowledge is decades out of date and your viewpoints ridiculous and blinkered. I sincerely hope that no decisions are ever taken based on the complete nonsense you spout.

You, sir, have no right at all to discuss air operations and should sod off back to wherever you come from as you have deprived your village of their idiot for long enough.

[timex]

Silsoe is paid to fly for the police. He is not allowed to post on here regarding police air ops.

Where does it say that?

[Phil Space]

I'll tell you where I come from.

School crossing patrols in county's such as Norfolk and Suffolk are being cut to the bone while high costs such as chief exec's and police helicopters burn vast amounts of public money.

As a pilot of 30 years experience on both fixed wing and helicopters I am happy to support anything that can cut costs.

All the pilots having a go at me here are employed in the public sector. I accept they have an axe to grind.

However the high costs of some aspects of policing can not continue.

There are more basic policing method that do not require £3-5 million of public
spending.

[yme]

Well said JAFFO. I think Phil (him in) may be telling an untruth about giving advice, there is no way with his out dated (lack of) knowledge that anyone but a complete fool would listen to him. He's not even very funny anymore.

[timex]

No axe to grind just amazed at the decision making going on that has been so poorly thought through. No one disagrees with the rationality.

[Phil Space]

In which case let me ask a question.

Silsoe Sid and his mate Coconutter are employed to fly police air ops.


Are they allowed in their contracts to post comments on here regarding police air ops?

Maybe I need to have a chat with a few chiefs and not the indians:ok:

[timex]

Are they allowed in their contracts to post comments on here regarding police air ops?


I would be very surprised if Pprune is mentioned in any contracts..:ok:

(ISTR that trying to find someones's ID on here is frowned upon, also veiled threats)..

[Phil Space]

But we all know where the main police air op posters work:ok:

I think Silsoe will back off if he worries about the chief.

Not a lot of work out there for old pilots.

[timex]

But we all know where the main police air op posters work

I think Silsoe will back off if he worries about the chief.

Not a lot of work out there for old pilots.



Before it was banter, that post is wrong on so many levels. Can some of the Mods look into this guy?

[J.A.F.O.]

Phil, you are a condescending prat.

I, too, am a private pilot and not employed by the police as a pilot. How dare you assume that you know a damn thing about me? You certainly don't know anything about air support.

I hope that yme is right and that no-one would listen to your supercilious drivel; you seem to have delusions of grandeur when even delusions of adequacy would be presumptuous.

At first I thought that you were odd yet entertaining and now I cherish my initial misconceptions as you are clearly an arrogant and bitter old imbecile whose outdated views, if they were ever worth anything at all, are now totally irrelevant.

[Phil Space]

It's Ok for Silsoe to have a go at me but when the worm turns he and others back off.

Never mind banning me it's about time Cleveland Police and other police air ops were offered the right to reply.

We are talking about Cleveland Police here yet not a single right to reply from their Chief Constable?

Time to close the thread mods:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

Theodore Roosevelt
(something that Phil might remember from the Global Eagle thread)

[SilsoeSid]

Who is backing off Phil ?;

You'll never know the fun of flying where when and how you want.

“When you play, play hard; when you work, don't play at all.”
Another from Theodore Roosevelt


Trust me Phil, I've had fun flying ... all over the World, and still do.
However, the difference between us is that I don't play at it as you seem to do :p

[SilsoeSid]

Hold on chaps, Phil is about to tell us something else;

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/givedamn.gif

[Wagging Finger]

First of all SS, fantastic quotes, the critic one has always been a particular favourite.:ok:

Now Phil, let me get this right;

Are they allowed in their contracts to post comments on here regarding police air ops?
followed by a very thinly veiled threat Maybe I need to have a chat with a few chiefs and not the indians:\

Then later;

Never mind banning me it's about time Cleveland Police and other police air ops were offered the right to reply

Now I don't want to drag myself into any gutters, but..........

How can you equate those comments, Police Officers are even more strongly 'Policed' (Pardon the pun) as to what they can and can't say in public.:suspect:

What do you advise Ministers on, which hymns are appropriate for this weekends service?

If I were you I would quit whilst your only a little behind and move on, nothing to see here:=

[Coconutty]

Oh dear .....

I had promised myself not to waste any more time on you Fill,

BUT - You know little if NOTHING about me, such as my AGE,
or what I do for a living - as usual you have made your own mind up
about something and are once again WRONG.

Your "credentials" as an ex BBC reporter are of little relevance -
Air support has moved on a long way from the 80's and 90's,
and if you really ARE advising at Ministerial level, then that really does worry me :\
( and as a UK Taxpayer it means I'm paying YOUR wages ! :eek: )

You have brought and continue to bring NOTHING of value to this
or any of the other threads your have so arrogantly posted to.

It has been pointed out before that you are entitled to your opinions,
but you seem to have over-stated them now,
so perhaps it really is time for you to give up on whatever your real agenda is / was.

Feel free to carry on spouting your rubbish before the Mod's take action against you,
but it's not big and it's not clever to try and make veiled threats against people on here
who genuinely CARE about the topics they post on.

PLEASE do contact the "Chief" of whichever organisation you think anyone here may have breached their contract with -
Dont forget to send them a copy of all YOUR posts here and elsewhere, and see where it gets you - Bye Bye

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

p.s. Oh, and just to correct you on yet another point - and to let you know that I really don't take you seriously -
I am definitely NOT the habitual drunkard you make me out to be.....
( It's not a habit - but that doesn't mean it never happens ;) )

[SilsoeSid]

Phil,

For someone to wish redundancy on another shows how much of a low life you really are. However before the P45's start dropping through the letter box, you are still welcome to visit the unit, (Hand on heart time.., no grudges held.)

[Senior Pilot]

Rather than slash and burn the last page or two, I am leaving the posts as an example of how not to let a thread run when I'm away for a few hours!

I think we've all had a fair response and got it out of our system, and suggest that we get back to the Thread topic instead of concentrating on what is essentially a trolling exercise.

[SilsoeSid]

I'll be surprised if the Cleveland CC makes an appearance, bit like expecting Col Gadaffi to comment on the NFZ thread :rolleyes:

Have a good weekend all :ok:

[props stopped]

According to some up at the ivory towers at Cleveland hq there is a lot of interest in this to save on the £2m per year unit running costs.

I wonder how long it will be before it reaches the UK, and will there be a national training course or an inhouse one?

How much does a MQ-1 Predator cost compared to the £5m EC135P2 and will the Home Office get a discount on another bulk purchase?

UAV trial shows non-pilots 'equally skilled', says RAF (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/04/01/355001/uav-trial-shows-non-pilots-equally-skilled-says-raf.html)

UAV trial shows non-pilots 'equally skilled', says RAF

The UK Royal Air Force has completed a trial programme intended to assess the ability of non-pilots to fly unmanned air vehicles.
Dubbed Daedalus, the process "has successfully demonstrated that selection and training can generate remote pilots who, despite undergoing a different sort of training, are as highly trained and equally skilled as traditional pilots in that field", the RAF says.

The effort was intended to study the possibility of using candidates with no previous flying experience as a means of addressing any future shortfall in the availability of pilots for the UK's remotely piloted air systems (RPAS).

"The aim of the trial is to build a sustainable core of RPAS pilots, from non-airborne specialisations, which would increase the pool of pilots to fly these state-of-the-art aircraft," the air force says.
"The results of the project will determine the qualities required for future RPAS pilots."
The RAF had originally hoped that the graduates of its programme would be able to operate its General Atomics MQ-9 Reapers, a type now in use over Afghanistan. However, the US Air Force, which supported the final phases of their training at Creech AFB, Nevada, has restricted their crew approvals to working only with its smaller MQ-1 Predator (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/mq-1%20predator.html) .

"Now that the trial has come to a close, the four of us are looking forward to being able to contribute directly to current operations," says one of the group.
Identified as Flt Lt Dale, his previous position was as a provost officer with the RAF Police.

"Trial Daedalus clearly owes its success to the tremendous flexibility and sheer determination of all who have been involved," says course co-ordinator Sqn Ldr Tony Sumner. "Their journey has been unique and has required no small amount of hard work."

[J.A.F.O.]

Nice try, props. :ok:

[Fly_For_Fun]

About 18 mil US$

[props stopped]

Pricey that!
I wonder if it was one of these others they are interested in?
Councillor McLuckie is a fan of PFI so never say never ;)

Certainly spoilt for choice from this lot, would you adam and eve how many there are!

Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) - Military Aircraft (http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/uav.htm)

I hear this one is very good, and has X-band automatic take off and landing system.

Watchkeeper Tactical UAV System - Army Technology (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/watchkeeper/)

[J.A.F.O.]

props, it's after midday, you're not supposed to carry it on after that.

[props stopped]

:O :O :O interesting designs though ;)