Mode S (Split From Air Arann Thread)

[Austrian Simon]

EI-REM is in Finland operating a wet lease

which doesn't exclude that it showed flight number RE231 for some (odd) reason. I am not saying that it did the flight, but for sure it was airborne indicating to be that flight.

The data are there and they don't lie (the database has been proven way too often with even more incredible data to be distrusted). I can't tell however why and where it indicated to be RE231.

I brought this only up because there was a complaint about poor reporting by RTE. It wasn't even though the report turned out to be wrong (and just in case you wonder - I am in Austria as my nick indicates, I have no connection whatsoever to RTE). In the meantime even other aviation sources report, it was EI-REM, probably because of that entry in the databases. That's all I am saying, not less and not more.

Servus, Simon

[OLNEY 1 BRAVO]

Austrian Simon - Aer Arran flight numbers taken from SBS reports should be treated with care. The airline's crews are notorious for not entering the correct flight number in the transponder and aircraft fly around for weeks showing the same flight number on every flight.

I guess EI-REM is flying around Finland showing an "old flight number".

QED!

[diver69]

The airline's crews are notorious for not entering the correct flight number in the transponder and aircraft fly around for weeks showing the same flight number on every flight.



Absolute Rubbish. You are confusing the 'squawk' entered into the Transponder and the Flight Number which is entered into the Flight Data Recorder.
1 -The 'Squawk': According to Aer Arann SOP's this is part of a read and respond (ie Captain and First Officer both check) checklist during the Before Take-Off Checklist. As any pilot (from any Airline) will tell you, flying around with the wrong transponder code will instantly be challenged by ATC.

2 - The Flight Number: Again. according to our SOP's this is enterd during the Final Cockpit Preparation Checklist, it is also a read and do checklist.

I have never heard of both pilots missing both checklists all day (up to 6 sectors), and then another pair of pilots missing the same points on the same checklist the next day, "fly around for weeks.........". Nonsense.

With respect, might I suggest you consider the validity of your comments before posting them.

[The Sandman]

diver69, might you not consider the validity of your own knowledge level :eek: before you reply so harshly to the previous poster. There are transponders out there (we have several a/c in our fleet equipped with them) in which you enter not only the "squawk" code, but also the flight callsign/id. Cool your jets.

[Seven Fifty Seven]

Mode S transponders require squawk code and flight number. Was a mandatory fit to our entire fleet. Flight number must be entered on every sector.

Cheers.

[diver69]

Mr Sandman,

The post I replied to made a specific claim that "The Airline's crews" (by which I intrepreted as the Airline in question - the poster also went on to imply EI-REM was flying around Finland with the wrong Flight Number) were "notorious for not entering the correct flight number" and "flew around for weeks with the wrong flight number"

My reply attempted to counter this incorrrect claim with facts relating specificially to RE Aircraft and how they are operated (SOP's).

Whether the flight number is entered in a Flight Data Recorder or one of your Transponders that accepts a Flight Number is not the issue. Flying around for weeks on end with the wrong Flight Number??? - This simply does not happen. Trust me. That's not harsh mate,its simply a presentation of fact.

Mr O 1 B,

My aplologies if my harsh reply upset you!!

There now - all friends again.

:)

[OLNEY 1 BRAVO]

diver69 - I didn't perhaps state what I meant very clearly.

However drawing on posts subsequent to my original post what I should have said was that the flight numbers (not the squawk) entered into Aer Arran aircraft mode S transponders were rarely updated.

I would therefore suggest that EI-REM is flying around Finland with RE231 still entered as the flight number in the mode S transponder.

Given my user name you can probably deduce that I near an airport frequented by Aer Arran aircraft so my views can be substantiated by many.

[NickBarnes]

EI-REM is in Finland, and is there till June:ok:

[liffy2A]

Olney 1 Bravo, think your still in your virtual world, If its not the
transponder then what are you on about? The flight Data recorder? If so I can assure you they are updated every flight and checked before taxing as per SOP's. Otherwise I have no idea what your on about. P.S just like the tread the airlines name is Aer Arann.

[diver69]

Liffy 2 Alpha,

Thank You!!!!!!!!

:D

[OLNEY 1 BRAVO]

Guys - no need to be so dismissive.

Maybe I'm using the wrong words but let me give you some examples when I go into some SBS logs on an enthusiasts website - and my understanding that SBS boxes pick up the mode S from the aircraft transponder - am I right?

So from 30th April:

EI-REN operated RE501 - yet on SBS reports it shows as RE621

EI-REB operated RE42W - yet on SBS reports it shows as RE220

EI-REB also operated RE48W and again SBS shows it as RE220.

Now given that SBS boxes only translate what the mode S transmits (owners of the boxes are not required to do any programming) I can only assume that either there is a fault with the mode S on those particular transponders OR wherever the flight number is supposed to be input, it isn't.

I would refer you to the earlier post by Seven Fifty Seven.

[discus2]

Austrian Simon - Aer Arran flight numbers taken from SBS reports should be treated with care. The airline's crews are notorious for not entering the correct flight number in the transponder and aircraft fly around for weeks showing the same flight number on every flight.

I guess EI-REM is flying around Finland showing an "old flight number".



Well, Simon, EI-REM is in Finland.
1: Guys, flight number cannot be entered in REM transponder, only on its GNSS, route page1.
2: Thanks for the rumour of it flying around Finland with an old flight number.
How do I know this?
Cause I flew it on the 29 in Finland, and yes, I enter the correct flight number for each sector !
Why?
Because it's in my SOPs.
How about not implicating crew, or not spreading rumours?
Get a life guys...

[liffy2A]

Very true discus2 all 500's havent a flight data recorder, Olney I think you should get after the people that are updating virtual ATC add ons on flight sim these are the real culprits ;). As you probably have gathered it is not right to started pointing the finger at crew when they have nothing to do with this, still havent the foggest what your on about sbs. You really think in this day of age in UK airspace that an airline will get away with wrong transponder settings?

[OLNEY 1 BRAVO]

Liffy 2A - if you read my previous posts you will see that I have made it very clear that I'm not talking about the Squawk - I am under no illusion that an aircraft would be allowed in UK airspace with the wrong Squawk. I am well aware of the implications of such an error.

I am also not talking about the flight data recorder. This has nothing to do with flight sims either!

As I've tried to explain, an SBS box interrogates the S band of S band equipped transponders. It will pick up the individual hex code allocated to that aircraft and if a flight number has been entered then it picks that up to. As SBS boxes can't pick up aircraft that don't have S band transponders and as Aer Arann aircraft can be picked I can only assume that some, if not all of your aircraft are equipped with S band transponders.

Furthermore, my understanding is that a the CAA have put off the mandatory introduction of S band, it is not a requirement (yet) for the correct flight numbers to be entered.

I am sure that a member in ATC or somebody flying an aircraft with an S band equipped transponder can add more details.

[mini]

liffy 2a said "all 500's havent a flight data recorder"

I thought FDR's were mandatory for the class of flight they're operating?

[liffy2A]

There intergrated into the gnss on the 500's mini, there is a seprated FDR in the older versions.

[V-Step]

As far as I am aware, Mode "S" transponders are pre-programmed with a code assigned by the regulatory authority, like the registration.

It is electronically tagged so that the specialist equipment interrogating the transponder knows which aircraft it is interrogating.

The flight crew have nothing to do with this code and it is separate from the requirement to input the flight number into the FDR or GNSS!

That said, an aircraft that carries out any number of sectors for any given day, week, month or year will always carry the same mode "S" code, the atc computers just need to keep up!

[OutOfRunWay]

you are correct. Each Aircraft has its own distinct 24-bit tag programmed into its mode-S transponder. Mode-S transponders are matched to individual aircraft, not flights.


OORW

[HON]

Can we now put this post to bed as it really has diverted from the origional subject somewhat!

[Nigd3]

What was the original post ? :)

Anyway, the 24 bit Mode S address is programmed into the XPDR and not adjustable by the crew.

However the Flight ID, as part of elementary surveillance, is set by the crew and is normally the flight number or the tail number. The XPDR control head will normally default to the setting on last power down, hence it is possible to overlook changing this but unlikely if correct SOPs are in place and adhered to.

[bookworm]

You might want to take a look at Eurocontrol's guidance Mode S - Flight Plans and Transponders (http://www.eurocontrol.int/msa/gallery/content/public/documents/Mode%20S%20Fpl%20Leaflet_V%201.3.pdf). Flight plan correlation is on the basis of Flight ID, not the 24-bit hex code.

[Radarspod]

OLNEY 1 BRAVO's SBS box receives all 1090MHz transponder broadcasts from aircraft in range and view of the antenna. Some of these will me Mode A/C replies (useless) and some will be mode S replies (containing 24 bit aircraft address, TCAS coordination and other bits and bobs). The rest (and most important ones for the SBS to be useful) are ADS-B broadcast messages of aircraft position, velocity vector and Flight ID. Flight ID is the ICAO callsign for that flight, or the aircraft registration in no callsign.

Certainly in the UK, if you are Mode S elementary or enhanced capable, the Flight ID must be entered correctly by the crew and there are AICs regarding this. Airlines should have SOPs for the flight crew.

As stated, there is no link whatsoever between Mode S aircraft address and Flight ID, and the flight crew have no access to the Mode S address, except on some military special installations.