VOR Ident. Do you bother?

[firebird_uk]

For sake of argument, let's say I've self fly hired a machine for the weekend and having jumped in I discover there's no gps, but there is a VOR.

Off we go and looking at my plan I tune my first VOR and the radial. Would you bother identing the beacon?

Being as I'm probably skulking around at about 1500-2500ft agl and that VOR propogation is line of sight, what are the chances are me picking up another VOR in Germany or wherever? Yes I could be unlucky with some freak skywaves but I'd have thought this would give eratic readings at best.

I can accept that at 33,000ft identing the beacon is a must, but at the altitudes we generally fly? :confused:

[TwinHueyMan]

I always do, it's good practice I find just to make sure of everything. In my few times using VORs as the sole navigational aid, I've found myself tuning the wrong VOR, the wrong radial, trying to use an OTS navaid, and having the nav system in the wrong mode... all discovered when I went to ident and did the normal "VOR double checks" (looking at a map, at the vor info block for the morse, then shooting a course from the VOR to where I know I am and confirming with an OBS twist direct to the vor). With the usually limited amount of fuel and nav equipment on the choppers I hire, flying somewhere other than where I'm planning would usually mean quite a big issue. Why skip something so quick and easy?

Mike

[spinwing]

Well of course you do ..... always check the ident to ensure you have the correct VOR .... if you have either the morse or voice ID then you have eliminated the possibility of having selected or been given the WRONG frequency for the navaid you wish to use .... this procedure is often called AIRMANSHIP.

:eek:

[HVHmt]

Why wouldn't you? It only takes seconds, what else could you be doing?
it is the proper thing to do.

[Barndweller]

Certainly you ident it. You may have selected the wrong frequency or failed to change frequency from the previous VOR in use. More than once i have tried to ident a VOR only to realise that i have not flipped the "change" toggle properly and it's still on the previous frequency. Much better to know straight away than after five min of head scratching and following the wrong radial

As said by the earlier poster - Airmanship! If you don't take the time to carry out that simple task then what else are you skipping?

Flysafe

[Barndweller]

One other comment Firebird... I would suggest that even if you did have a GPS then it would be good airmanship to have the VOR set to an appropriate frequency as a back-up and cross check. This means that if the GPS fails then you don't have to mess about setting up the VOR. It also means that you stay familiar with how to use the VOR so that on the day you need to it doesn't take ten min of head-scratching by which time you're in controlled airspace or worse.

If there is kit in the aircraft - use it and know how to use it.

[firebird_uk]

OK, before I take even more of a pasting I'll explain why I asked in the first place. I have almost completed my CPL in an aircraft with no VOR. It has a gps that will emulate a VOR, but not the ident (in effect a town, VRP etc can 'be' a VOR).

This means that for my test I'll have to fly another helicopter (same type obviously) that has a VOR. I'm sure it'll fly the same as the one I've been using, but I obviously feel more at home in 'my' one.

My question was to gauge whether I could talk an examiner into using the simulated VOR on the basis that nobody bothers identing them anyway. Clearly I'll need to use the other machine. :(

[Prophead]

Remember you are identing to check the operation of the VOR not just that you have tuned it in correctly.

[cjam]

You are very inexperienced, the lesson to learn here is that more experienced people are telling you that these little things are a matter of airmanship. It's seemingly little things like this that will kill you. Don't try to find a way around challenges, hit them hard and try and perfect your flying.Doing that will build your confidence as well.

[ubique]

You should check the ident every time, for even if it is a frequently used station and a frequency that you know, you will occasionally find it indenting "TST" meaning that it is on test and not reliable.

[Willyboy]

Tune

Identify

Test

:ok:

[Geoffersincornwall]

My Honeywell Epic FMS system will only display valid radio navaids. If the signal is absent or invalid then ..... no display (no needle, no CDI indications). Anything producing a valid ident will display the code being received in letter format on the pilot's displays thus enabling the servideability of the aid to be checked and to verify the correct frequency and code.

Now..... do I need to check the audio 'Morse' ident?

G

:confused:

[helicopter-redeye]

I can't believe this conversation is even happening. A JAR CPL student is asking should he ident the navaid or not bother.:confused:

[malabo]

Like the Honeywell Epic, other FMS units do the same, even the real inexpensive ones. So if you are flying stone-age junk, you should tune and identify - sometimes the VOR will appear to function normally but won't give an ident because it is not meant to be used (calibration, etc), check your NOTAMS. And on a Flight Test always announce that you have "Tuned and Identified" - magic words the examiner wants to hear.

So on the modern stuff I don't bother to identify - the unit does all that work for me. For the cheaper stuff, hmm, can't recall ever flying a VOR in a helicopter, ever. You are low, remote, and there was always some other option, like GPS or following a shoreline.

ILS and DME works the same on the modern units - no need to identify. Once we got away from coffee grinder ADF's into digitally tuned pretty much the same there.

Probably heresy to all you helicopter IFR guys

[firebird_uk]

I can't believe this conversation is even happening. A JAR CPL student is asking should he ident the navaid or not bother.

Why? I've flown almost 180 hours of which only around 10 have been in an aircraft equiped with a VOR. Even then it was never used as part of the training as Nav was dead reckoning / trackcrawl.

I've learnt everything about Boeing 737s on my interim procedure JAR ATPL(H) theory and only ever played with VORs / RMIs / DMEs on MS Flight Simulator. I guess that's why.

For all I know identing VORs might be a practice in flying, just as keeping to the speed limits and believing the stopping distances in the highway code is to driving - make believe.

[Troglodita]

In addition to agreeing with everyone who tells you that you MUST Ident ANY Navaid prior to use - you will also look a real d***head calling ATC giving your position relative to a VOR on test (TST)

It is also essential that you either know Morse Code or carry an "idiots guide" so that you can correctly identify a non-standard ident such as test (TST) or an additional "ECHO" signifying that the aid is on emergency power.

[Wizzard]

Firebird,

If during your test you use a VOR without identing the code - you will fail.

[LH2]

Anyone know why they dont all just say .........VOR instead of the morse ident.....??

Because it takes all the mystique out of it, that's why! :}

Secondarily, not sure how an FMS' autoident feature would cope with those, but that's a minor concern to me :p

For all I know identing VORs might be a [make believe] practice in flying

For some it is, I have seen pilots who "ident" by listening for the beeps without checking that it is transmitting the expected code. That is a terrible idea for the reasons Trogolodita and others have explained (wrong station, test mode).

btw, what is it they say about no stupid questions, only stupid answers? None is born endowed with knowledge, and I can understand how looking at the way many people operate one can get confused at times. Asking only shows you've got the sense to realise something might be amiss.

Trog
or an additional "ECHO" signifying that the aid is on emergency power

Could you please expand on that? I wasn't aware there was such an indication. Does that apply only to VORs or to other navaids as well?

[ppng]

The reason you need to identify any beacon before using it is that you may die otherwise. In the beginning there were no rules, but they were developed after identifying the causes of fatal accidents in the past.

In the UK you cannot legally fly an Instrument approach in IMC using a GPS waypoint as your reference.

There are always reasons for these things, even if you do not understand or accept them yet.

Or you could just choose to be a - .-- .- -

[RVDT]

Of course not losing sight of the point that unless you are instrument rated in some way you are not qualified to navigate using radio aids anyway.

Seems to be true reading some of the responses here.

[spinwing]

Mmmmmm .........

"Of course not losing sight of the point that unless you are instrument rated in some way you are not qualified to navigate using radio aids anyway."

Bollocks ...... of course you can ..... VFR just not as a sole means of navigation.

[RVDT]

:ouch: I have absolutely no doubt that you CAN, the point remains as I stated though, you are still not qualified.

On a VFR light helicopter I would doubt that the VOR receiver was maintained - no requirement.

[Troglodita]

LH2 - I have personally experienced this ident being used but it may just apply to "private" NDB's e.g. operated by Oil Companies on private airfields or platforms or rigs.

The ICAO Standard is as below: -

3.2 Removal of Identification
During periods of routine or emergency maintenance, the identification is removed from NDBs, VORs, DMEs, TACANs, and ILSs. The removal of this identification warns pilots that the facility may be unreliable even though it transmits. Under these circumstances the facility should not be used. Similarly, prior to commissioning, a new facility (particularly VOR or ILS) may transmit with or without identification. In such cases, the facility is advertised as being ‘ON TEST’ and it should not be used for navigation.

Sorry for causing any confusion - I'll research further!

[rjsquirrel]

OK, confession time. The last time I listened to an ident was about 10 years ago.

[LH2]

Trogs,

For LH2 - Additional "ECHO"

Cheers for the answer, very interesting. I'll do some enquiries myself when I get the chance.

[Flingingwings]

Firebird,

What did you cover within the radio nav portion of your ppl(h)?????

What does your cpl instructor do/advise???????

FWIW if I'm going to use any navaid I will ALWAYS ident it :ok:

FW

[ShyTorque]

ILS and DME works the same on the modern units - no need to identify. Once we got away from coffee grinder ADF's into digitally tuned pretty much the same there.
Probably heresy to all you helicopter IFR guys

Correct identing saved me a lot of embarrassment at least once. We had the current ATIS and were being vectored for an ILS; not straighforward because it was rush hour, the weather had turned worse than forecast and at quite short range from the field we had to change intentions from an SVFR arrival.

When the ILS was aurally idented, it didn't sound right. After a couple of listens I realised that it wasn't the correct ident code. They had changed the runway to the opposite end and hadn't told us. The difference is the last letter of the ident only (E, not W).

My more modern IFR heli gives a visual display of the ident but I still routinely ident aurally too. It doesn't suffix the ident if the beacon is on test; it just doesn't display. If it doesn't display then aurally identing differentiates between a beacon not working correctly, or a failed aircraft receiver.

[Capt Kremmen]

What's a VOR?



Capt. Kremmen (He's so hunky)

[Flingingwings]

VHF Omnidirectional Range navigation system

[NickLappos]

Very Obsolete Radio

[keithl]

Choke - splutter - gasp!!

To all N. Sea helo pilots who know me and wonder why I haven't joined in this thread - I'm still being resuscitated!

[Codger]

Use everything that you've got, every time, and confirm it.
It's easier to do it in severe clear and the one time that you actually do require that little box to do it's job, you won't even need to think about the process.

[arismount]

A bit off subject but since nobody ever talks about it and a lot of people don't know about it and I won't be around forever, a couple of tricks for you new men...

Using VOR for positional awareness:
Suppose you have only 1 VOR receiver, no DME. Low altitude, so you have trouble receiving a variety of VORs. Here's two ways you can get a position using only one VOR.
1. Abeam distance ("Poor Man's DME"): When flying abeam a VOR, set the CDI to pinpoint when you're exactly at the abeam point. At this point, start the clock and then reset the CDI 10 radials ahead of the flight path. When the CDI centers again, stop the clock. Note the time that elapsed in seconds, and divide by 10. The result is the number of minutes it would take you to fly to the station from that point, at that groundspeed. Example: Do the above & 90 seconds elapse; divide by 10, equals 10 minutes to station. If groundspeed is 90 knots, that's 1.5 miles per minute, so you would be 15 NM from the station. Knowing your radial from the VOR and your distance, you can arrive at a position. Very handy if you're ever caught above cloud, or disoriented in any other way.
2. Double the angle: When you know you're going to be flying by a VOR, set the CDI to determine when the station is 45 degrees ahead of you (left or right no matter). Start the clock at that point. Then reset the CDI to determine when you are exactly abeam. When abeam, note the elapsed time. That time will be exactly the time required to fly to the station at that point, at current groundspeed. Example: Elapsed time between 45 ahead and abeam equals 5:30. Current groundspeed 120 knots, that's 2 miles per minute. Therefore you are 11 NM from the station at the abeam point, and knowing the radial, you now have a position.

[ShyTorque]

Thanks but in UK we can just ask for a training fix on 121.5

(That will get some of them stroppy co-pilots whinging again). :E

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi Firebird

My advice is ident the VOR.

Picture the scenario you start the nav part of your flight test, select VOR frequency & radial, ident the VOR and begin your nav, obviously using the VOR as an aid to your DR nav, nav goes well, lots of praise from the FE(H), you pass.

Now picture the other scenario, you start the nav part of your flight test, select VOR frequency & radial, don’t bother to ident the VOR and begin your nav, once again using the VOR as an aid to your DR nav, nav goes well, FE(H) is happy with your DR nav but picks you up on not identing the VOR, you hopefully pass?

In regard to your other question about asking the examiner before hand how to work a VOR I would have thought he/she would be understanding and give you a run down on how to use the ident etc, but if I were you I would get an instructor or other pilot to show me before hand just in case.

[Ding Dong]

Why? I've flown almost 180 hours

180 Hours and you have never used a VOR ??? :yuk: .. How did you even pass your PPL(H) .. its part of the flight test ! (well mine anyway )

Posts like this give me the shivers .. !!!!!

only ever played with VORs / RMIs / DMEs on MS Flight Simulator. I guess that's why.
:bored:

I'm not sure what to really make of this bit ..... I feel ill ...