France trip info!!!

[eugegall]

Next week i am flying to le touquet from fairoaks and i was wondering .... once im in le touquet am i alloud to fly out of there into another french airport. a smaller, Quieter one with a better local town for food and in general a great day out. then leave the smaller airport bound for the uk? any info would be great. thanks.

[soay]

I'm planning to fly to France in the summer, so have been looking for resources to forewarn me of any problems. The Fly in France (http://flyinfrance.free.fr/) site was written by a native Frenchman, and seems to have lots of useful information. You could try asking your question there.

[Three Yellows]

I've been flying to France for over ten years. As far as I am aware, you have to enter and leave France via a designated airport such as Le Touquet, Caen, Deauville, Calais, Dinard etc. Some of these fields need notice and the notice periods can vary according to the time/day of week.

As with everything in aviation, someone will be along in a minute with a different view.

In case you don't know, there is lots of useful info here

http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/default_uk.htm

and if you sign up here with Olivia you can file your FPL for coming home before you leave.


http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/asp/frameset_uk.asp?m=14

[172driver]

The general rule for Schengenland is: you have to arrive via a customs/immigration airfield. Once inside, you are free to fly anywhere within the Schengen area.

[IO540]

3Y is right. This catches out a lot of UK pilots because the UK is almost unique in having no exit Customs. As far as Customs/Immigration goes, you can leave the UK from any farm strip without any notice. This doesn't work elsewhere in Europe - even if it appears to not be enforced (obviously, they can't get you once you've left, and they would have to run a database of all pilots who did it so they can get him next time he visits, and much of the time his name is not known).

The other thing is that if going to NON international airfields (basically, this means NON Customs airfields) you have to speak the local language as there is no requirement for anybody there to speak English. I can't speak any French so I fly only to international airports there.

[172driver]

This doesn't work elsewhere in Europe

Not correct if you fly within the Schengen area.

[Three Yellows]

The 15 Schengen countries are: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Greece, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain and Sweden. All these countries except Norway and Iceland are European Union members.


Whilst there is free movement of goods within the EU, I guess there would be "customs" issues if not "Immigration" issues if going to Norway and Iceland.

More info here

http://www.eurovisa.info/BackgroundInfo.htm

(I think IO540 meant that it wouldn't work to leave the Schengen area from a farmstrip)

[eugegall]

do the french realy care what aieport you leave from?

[172driver]

3Y, actually a few more have recently joined (Eastern Europe). Please note I was referring to flights within the Schengen area, which would most likely cover the majority of European touring.

[IO540]

The 15 Schengen countries are: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Greece, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain and Sweden. All these countries except Norway and Iceland are European Union members.

Well, Greece blatently disregards this. You can SWIM or WALK to Greece and you are OK but if you travel via a "vehicle" you have to go via a Port of Entry ;) ;) ;) One would almost think Greece was in Italy - another place that makes up rules as they go along, but far less attractive than Greece :) This makes Greece a bit of a challenge - trying to find avgas and a Port of Entry at the same time. Corfu LGKR is a popular stopover for this reason.

A notable case to watch is Croatia - a very beautiful country with fantastic GA facilities (lovely little islands with Customs and avgas at 50p/litre) and totally relaxed ATC but not in Schengen and not in the EU! Arriving in the EU from Croatia, you may as well be coming from Iraq.

do the french realy care what aieport you leave from?

In theory yes. In practice, as WR shows, you can get picked up if trying to do it from a high profile airfield.

Obviously you could just depart from some unmanned farm strip but you have committed a crime and next time you go there they might want to talk to you. I've never heard of this happening though.

[PH-UKU]

Planning a trip to southwest France and looking at options of staging through Alderney.

Any advice on best places to get fuel ?

Either in the Channel Islands - I hear Guernsey is 99p a litre at the moment....

or in northwest France. With the strength of the euro at the moment I think my eyes might be watering a bit ..

Any experiences in the La Rochelle, Quiberon areas ? Or of visiting the islands at Belle Isle or Ile d'Yeu ?

And lastly ... transponders .. I understand they are not mandated in France .. yet ?

[IO540]

La Rochelle is a really nice town to visit - highly recommended.

The ATCO (I recall) was a short tempered b*stard though, asking me to route to some VRP (I was VFR then) which didn't exist on the chart; none of the other pilots parked there could find it either. Maybe this was a one-off. VRPs are one of the little hassles in foreign flying...

The only downside of routing via the Channel Islands (and their cheaper avgas) is that you need to give 12hrs notice to Special Branch, and they do enforce this with all the arrogant aggression you may expect from a copper :)

[Three Yellows]

do the french realy care what aieport you leave from?



Try it and let us know how you get on.............................. or where to visit you, I'll bring a baguette with a file in it:}

[LH2]

Obviously you could just depart [France] from some unmanned farm strip

There is the small detail of your flight plan, which is compulsory as you'll be crossing an international border, being rejected due to your departure airfield being non-customs. Depends of course on how attentive/helpful the person taking your FPL is, but in my experience they are quite knowledgeable and will warn you if about to do something stupid.

The other thing is that if going to NON international airfields (basically, this means NON Customs airfields) you have to speak the local language

The exact language requirements are as follows (extract from the French VFR Guide 2008 (http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/asp/texteregle/texteregle-c.asp?ordre_0=2&ordre_1=1&lang=uk)):


LANGUAGES TO BE USED
Air traffic services messages can be transmitted in French or
in English unless “Fr only” appears on the aerodrome charts;
when it does only the French must be used. However French
pilots must use the French language except for training requirements.
Note: the abbreviation “Fr only” is systematically indicated
when the aerodrome is open to IFR traffic when there is no
traffic services organism

Note: aerodrome charts might be obtained, of course, from the AIP (http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/html/frameset_aip_uk.htm)

I notice, btw, that the "Fr seulement" bit seems to have disappeared from many of the VACs which used to have it (in fact, can't find a single one just now)--whether it's a misprint or something else I don't know.

transponders .. I understand they are not mandated in France

As I remember it, you can fly non-transponder in uncontrolled airspace, but it is compulsory in CAS. There should be a definitive answer somewhere on the AIP or the VFR guide referenced above.

Arriving in the EU from Croatia, you may as well be coming from Iraq.

Meaning..? The one time I've been to Croatia, I felt like arriving to Iraq (with apologies to the Iraqis) when I landed in Graz. Bunch of square-headed bastards :ugh:

But digressions apart, I recommend you order (http://sia2.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/cgi-bin/siavpc2.storefront/480b3840133daac6273fd417a21c067d/Product/View/4178) the very useful VFR guide, which is only about £25.- including one mill charts and a couple other bits.

I also second the Fly in France (http://flyinfrance.free.fr/) recommendation for practical info not found in the official docs, or just speak to the natives once there. The GA community in France is big and enthusiastic and they will usually be happy to offer advice (even to an Englishman :})

[mark147]

I notice, btw, that the "Fr seulement" bit seems to have disappeared from many of the VACs which used to have it (in fact, can't find a single one just now)--whether it's a misprint or something else I don't know.
If there is no air traffic service at all, as at many of the minor airfields such as Abbeville, they don't mention it - you're expect to know that the standard air-to-air frequency (123.5) is French only (that's probably stated elsewhere in the AIP).

Some airfields have AFIS in English/French but state French only when the FISO isn't there - LFQA and LFQB for example. Watch out for this if you plan to arrive at lunch time (which could be two hours).

[LH2]

they don't mention it

Thing is, I could swear they used to. Might be just my imagination--I'll have a look at some old plates when I get a chance, just to confirm.

(123.5) is French only (that's probably stated elsewhere in the AIP).

Curiously, I cannot find a specific reference to that in the official docs either. :confused:

I'm not disputing what you're saying, btw, just a tad mystified by what appear to be the latest editorial changes. I was also under the impression that the bit about "French to French, speak French" had disappeared from the regs some time ago, and all of a sudden it pops back in in an official publication. Utterly confusing to me. Anyway, back to the subject, which I actually forgot to answer in my previous:

once im in le touquet am i alloud to fly out of there into another french airport

Yes, having cleared customs you can fly anywhere in France or any other Schengen country without any further formalities (other than FPL if required).

then leave the smaller airport bound for the uk?

Only if you are able to clear customs at that airport. A few of them require prior (24hr) notice, as pointed out above by WR. Failing that, a technical stop somewhere else to clear customs shouldn't set you back much more than the €6 to €10 landing fee, approach and climb fuel, and the price of a café au lait while you wait.

Having said all that, best thing to do is call the French and ask them about your specific plans. Here's some telephone numbers:

BRIA Lille: +33 (0)3 20 16 19 65/66
BRIA Nantes: +33 (0)2 40 84 84 75 / +33 (0)2 40 84 80 45

Don't be afraid to ask. They all understand English perfectly well, btw (although depending on the day they may not feel like speaking it so you end up having a bilingual conversation :E)

[IO540]

There is the small detail of your flight plan, which is compulsory as you'll be crossing an international border, being rejected due to your departure airfield being non-customsIt would be a very attentive person indeed to spot that. And if you file a flight plan via some remote facility e.g. homebriefing.com the departure/destination fields will not be checked against anything.

In general you can file a FP without regard for Customs and PPR. Often, down to Greece etc, one files as an alternate an airfield which is military only, or one which is long PPR or no avgas.

Other than some nice person trying to help you, there is absolutely no mechanism for checking FPs for this kind of thing (VFR or IFR).

[Zulu Alpha]

Some French airports do not have customs present, but can arrange for you. I just give the airfield a call a day or two before and they arrange it.

Dieppe has this arrangement and the man in the tower there couldn't be more helpful.

So it may be worth enquiring if you particularly want to go somewhere.

ZA

[LH2]

It would be a very attentive person indeed to spot that.

I had in mind the airfield's operations office/tower, or the local BRIA, which is how I usually do my flight plans. Of necessity, they tend to be rather familiar with what you can or cannot do from their airfield (which I have always found very helpful). But of course...

if you file a flight plan via some remote facility

Yes, it hadn't occurred to me. In that case you file your flight plan and off you go with none being the wiser unless something else happens that makes you the focus of attention (e.g., you crash or something).

Matter of fact, I get the impression that there must have been more than one instance of people flying between two non-custom airfields in these two countries, out of ignorance if nothing else. It's not like this stuff is properly covered on the PPL books, to my recollection.

[IO540]

I am sure it happens, LH2, if only from reading pilot forums :)

Re being stopped from departure by the tower, that could happen because the tower receives a copy of the FP (and in the case of a VFR one the destination also, and not much in between). So, the tower will see your FP destination even if you don't advertise it.

[MCR01]

No info on airfields on your proposed route. If you get forced further East then Tours is always very helpful.
Once in SW France can recommend Auch (excellent restaurant); Cahors & Libourne (very good restaurants).
Villeneuve-s-Lot is closed non resident A/C; nothing there either.
Agen - friendly, no restaurant, actually charges landing fees just like the UK!
Marmande - no restaurant
Fumel - nothing at all, middle of nowhere, not even a lost dog.
Not sure what you're flying - if you need mogas St Exupery (Lot & Garonne) has a pump (nominally microlight field, but 800+m good grass; check for very low level, very high speed Alpha jets and Mirages especially when R46N is active); may have restaurant open again soon.

[eugegall]

All please listen!

I'm flying from fairoaks (UK) obviously i will file the correct paperwork. once i land in france at a customs airport. i want to fly france and land at 4/5 maybe 6 different french airfields. maybe smaller ones. im hour building and need to do trips like these. once i get bored ( i wont know when) lets say im in the air bound for another french airport and i suddenly change my mind and want to fly back to the uk and i have already submitted the return paperwork, who could stop me once airborn!

im not trying to be the system i just want a little more freedom than haveing to check in and out everytime. my point is i wont know when i want to come back,. i may just turn around and say. lets head back now? who can do what?

[172driver]

All please listen!

Ahhhh - not familiar yet with the usual Pprune tangent on your original question? ;) It'll come.... :}

im not trying to be the system i just want a little more freedom than haveing to check in and out everytime. my point is i wont know when i want to come back,. i may just turn around and say. lets head back now? who can do what?

You may find the UK end trickier here.

[Rod1]

“transponders .. I understand they are not mandated in France”

The rules state you need Mode C in class D airspace. I understand this is not enforced, but if there is an incident, the French will “remember”.

Rod1

[Three Yellows]

All please listen!



Listen pal, we're listening, but you didn't give us all the facts in your first post either so don't expect us all to have our crystal balls out.

Now YOU LISTEN.

As private pilots we have a great freedom to be able to nip across the channel for lunch etc whenever we choose. Apart from the usual flight planning, notams, wx etc, all we need to do is fax LHR with an FPL from home, punch in the return FPL into Olivia, turn up at Booker (for example), hand in the Gen Dec and go. Booker then notify the relevant authorities that we'll be back at say 5pm or whatever. REMEMBER 4HOURS NOTICE REQUIRED FOR COMING HOME.

These are fairly simple rules and not too difficult given the current govt. climate of wanting to control everything.

What none of us need is you f***ing it up for us by flying about rural airfields and then just coming straight home without having filed a FPL, given the UK 4hrs prior notice or having complied with the French rules of leaving either from a designated airfield or making suitable arrangements with the French.

If you are unable to plan past the end of your nose, I suggest you take up another hobby/profession, 'cos aviation aint for you PAL.

Rant over.

[eugegall]

lol. what a ******* gay!! sorry old man i will do as i please thank you very much.

i have always stated that i will file to and from flight plans. there only ETA im alloud to be early or late.

go bore some other people

[dublinpilot]

What none of need is you f***ing it up for us by flying about rural airfields and then just coming straight home without having filed a FPL, given the UK 4hrs prior notice or having complied with the French rules of leaving either from a designated airfield or making suitable arrangements with the French.


Well said 3Y.

We do have great freedoms. But with freedom comes responsibilities. The requirements are not very onerous. Comply with them.

If you want different rules, then go ask your politicians to get them changed....don't ignore them and mess it up for the rest of us.

PH-UKU,

No avgas available at either Ile D'Yeu or Belle Ile when I was there (2006). Accomodation can be a problem if you haven't booked it in advance. On the weekend in June when I arrived in Ile D'Yeu there was absolutely NO accomodation available whatsoever according to the tourist office who had just spent the morning looking for something for somone else. I had to end up camping. :{

Get some bikes and cycle around...it's not that big, and there's not that much to see.

Belle Ile. You'll need a hire car. They will deliver them to the airport if you ask in advance. There are a few things worth seeing.

Both airports were french only when AFIS wasn't active, but there wasn't very much traffic at either.

You might want to bring some tie downs. It was very windy in both places when I was there! I got the impression that this was quiet normal!

I didn't have a similar to IO540 in La Rochelle. In fact I seem to remember being cleared into the CTR from 45 miles out! Landing fee was €7, and parking for three nights was free, because we parked on the grass!

dp

[dublinpilot]

im hour building and need to do trips like these.

I imagine that a criminal conviction will look very well on your cv :(

[eugegall]

are you joking me!! who do you think i am? and why would i risk a life long job for an extra buck