Life in the Airforce - how is it really?

[jolly tar]

Hello everyone,

I've stumbled upon your website whilst looking for information about life in the RAF, especially from a partners point of view.

My fiance is planning (or at least seriously considering) on joining up as a pilot (assuming that they will take him, but for arguments sake I'll assume that he does) and I've been looking for information about what its like to be the partner/wife of a serviceman - especially a pilot. There is very little information, but what I can find doesn't look that positive.

I was brought up as a forces child (RAF ground crew) but my father left when I was quite young, however I have lasting memories of not knowing where daddy was and not seeing him for ages at a time. These feelings have been compounded by being a boarding school with a strong military background. To say that I am less than enthusiastic is an understatement, but I do not want to stand in the way of his dreams.

I wont be moving to a base (that I point blank refuse - I like my independence in my own home far too much) and I want my own career - hopefully I have secured a dream job that will keep my in my current location. I am also not one for doing the socialising thing with work colleagues outside of working hours - when I leave work I like to leave it behind and not touch it until the next morning. From what I've read, it sounds like I'll be signing up for an utterly miserable existence.

Would you kind people be able to give me a realistic view of life for forces partners? I've read a lot of the posts on here, and although I really don't understand much of it (planes are not my thing and I hate flying) you all come across as lovely, articulate and truthful people. I want a realistic view as in the end, I don't want to be miserable for the next however many years and doubt that I would be able to do that to myself.

My specific questions are:
1) How much say does one get in postings? Realistically, how much do you move about and how long are postings?
2) What is a wives roll in supporting her husband? Would she be expected to participate to further his career and would non participation be frowned upon?
3) What support is there for the families of servicemen whilst they are away?

Its been a long week and I'm sure there were other things I'd have liked to ask, so I shall keep thinking.

Thank you so much for reading it, and I look forward to reading your replies.

Jolly.

[SRENNAPS]

If you think it was bad when your father was in then don’t even bother.

From what you have said I would give you two months.....tops

[jolly tar]

Would you care to elaborate on your post please? I'm interested to know why you said that.

[PPHOS058]

Hi. I have just read your post and if I am honest you are probably not going to like my response.
As a young FJ pilot myself, not long out of training I would say that you seem to have a good grip on what life would be like but here is my opinion for what it is worth.

Through training you obviously have no say in where you are going, it will depend on flying ability. Training will take a while, IOT to OCU is probably 3-5 years depending on the stream (FJ, Rotory, Multi). With that in mind planning where your first real posting will be is impossible until the end of training. At the end of training you have a limited input as to where you end up but is largely a case of bums on seats.

That leads you to your first tour which is around 3 years (often less) at the end of which there will be more uncertainty as to where you will be. Exactly how much you will have to move around is impossible to say as it depends upon a/c type and career ambitions.

It would be very hard to plan your career around his especially through training. The friends I have who were married through training just had to accept that they would live apart.

Then on the front line you have constant deployment and exercises in almost all fleets. This may change but I would not hold my breath.

Not trying to say that it can't be done but it is difficult.

Not wanting to get involved socially is not a big problem but if you want support from the RAF when your partner is away then you would have to get to know the other wifes etc.

I hope that is of some help.

[TheInquisitor]

My specific questions are:
1) How much say does one get in postings? Realistically, how much do you move about and how long are postings?
2) What is a wives roll in supporting her husband? Would she be expected to participate to further his career and would non participation be frowned upon?
3) What support is there for the families of servicemen whilst they are away?

1. None whatsoever. You can make your preferences known, and the RAF will try to put you somewhere you want to go, but at the end of the day the needs of the Service overrule anything else. If they say you're going, you're going.

2. Yes, and yes.

3. Cock-all.

I wont be moving to a base (that I point blank refuse - I like my independence in my own home far too much) and I want my own career - hopefully I have secured a dream job that will keep my in my current location.

Then you will never see your fiancee / husband, simple as that. Your 'career' will have to play second fiddle to his. If you don't like that, don't marry him. You will be forcing him to commute what may well be a long distance every weekend just for your convenience - what relationship you get out of that won't last very long, I assure you.

If he wants to join, and you want to stay with him, I'm afraid you're going to have to show alot more flexibility and a little less selfishness. I have seen many a mate's marriage suffer and fail (as well as their performance at work suffer because of it) due to circumstances just like this.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but this is the reality of it. Being a Pilot in the RAF is a damn hard job - the training is fast-paced and hard work, and the job at the front line these days is just as demanding. The LAST thing he will need is an inflexible wife at home giving him grief for things beyond his control.

[Wingswinger]

Nothing much has changed since I was in except, perhaps, the number and length of deployments. My wife couldn't stand the career-wife syndrome, the pointless coffee mornings and the superficiality of the social circuit. That was one of the reasons I left after having given it the best 17 years of my life. It was either that or divorce. If you want to get on as an RAF officer you are expected to put the Service above all else - including your family.

My experience was that an ambitious RAF officer needed to choose his wife very carefully and with his career in mind. It took a certain kind of woman and probably not one with much of a brain and education let alone a profession. There were wives who were bright and independent when I was in but the significant thing is that they didn't last long or, like me, their husbands left the Service

It does make me wonder though - what about female aircrew officers? Are their husbands/men expected to go to all the coffee mornings and show willing in order to support their careers? If not, it's a bit sexist is it not?

A Jolly Tar - it seems to me that it isn't for you. Sorry.

[Milarity]

When I married it was unusual to live off the patch in your own home. We knew that we had a gratuity coming that was enough to buy a place to live in retirement, so why bother with the encumbrance of a house?

Married Quarters were busy, vibrant places. We all went for a beer at the Mess after work and walked across the green to get home. There were no drink driving issues. We were always in and out of each other's houses, and there was always a party somewhere. Our wives did not need to work, though some did. The "I'm Mrs Wing Commander" type did exist, but were ridiculed behind their backs. Postings meant moving to other such patches, being made welcome and an instant social life. And there were a good variety of postings........

Yes, maybe my spectacles are rose tinted and I've glossed over the crap condition of some homes, but you get the picture.

Now, Family Quarters seem to be transit camps where people stay for the shortest possible time until they can move out. You must get on the housing market now, or suffer horribly later. Wives have to work to help with the mortgage. Your gratuity wouldn't buy a mobile home. No one drinks because everyone drives, so the social focus and community spirit has gone. Most people forget the job at the camp gates, which reduces the commitment felt and the sense of responsibility. Most people want to find a good post and stay put.

Again, I know these are sweeping generalisations, and a great many people adapt and enjoy.

Could you adapt and enjoy?

Hubby can always commute. This means he will be in the Mess during the week with other displaced husbands and the young single officers. He will have no housework to do, dinner will be cooked for him, and the bar is open. Or maybe a run into town for a bit of action. He won't look forward to ringing home, because despite being lonely, when he rings you for solace, you pour out your frustrations on him and give nothing but grief.

Now add children to the equation....

For what its worth, we had a great time, my wife had a job, we rented the house out and lived in Quarters, and the kids grew up loving it. But then, I managed 2 x 7-year tours during the school years, very unusual then and now.

[Al R]

Hi Jolly,

You might get good feedback here.

http://www.rearparty.co.uk/

I'm not being facetious, the insight might be more appropriate, thats all.

Good luck.

Al.

[Pontius Navigator]

Let me turn the question inside out.

There was a WRAF officer clearly looking to marry an RAF officer with good career prospects. Now she clearly had a career but was probably not wishing to continue for ever.

She found a good mate and he was OK but at that point perhaps not exceptional. She was a flt lt and he was a bit younger as a fg off.

He then applied for a branch change to become aircrew. He qualified and was posted as a fairly young flt lt to his new unit. She was fully supportive and I suspect also the driving force in the relationship.

He rose rapidly through the ranks and I lost sight of him when he became an air commodore in his early 40s.

The moral is that an air force career needs the full support of the team. I don't know who cleaned his shoes or pressed his pants but undoubtedly she would have done the shopping, laundry and all the other essential support admin jobs.

[skaterboi]

Jolly Tar,

I would disagree with certain things mentioned and would say the answers to your questions are:

1. Not much, and around 2-3 years.
2. Not as much as you'd think but there is an element of it.
3. If you live off base as you want to (and I do) then as much as you want to participate in.

I'll elaborate by saying that postings and deployments can be very dependant upon which fleet your fiancé ends up on. All fleets are working hard but there are some that are better than others. I'd say the Helicopter fleets have it the worst, closely followed by the Multi-Engine guys then the fast-jet guys. There is obviously some variation in this of course.

Since your bloke has to go through training you can expect a turbulent 3-5 years as mentioned. The chances of buying your own house at each place in this time, given the current climate, are nil. So you will have to live in quarters.

Once he gets to the front line some stability could be assured but where you end up and for how long is anyone's guess. Personally, as aircrew I've been at the same place now for 8 years and own my own house and my wife has her own career, so it can be done but that's a rarity. I don't think I'll be lucky for ever though....

I hope this helps somewhat.

[jolly tar]

From what has been said here and by others, I get the feeling that if I want more from my life than being ¨admin¨ for my husband, I will be hauled over bricks for being a terrible person.

I'm rather saddened by the majority of the responses but I did ask for the truth and it certainly hasn't been sugar coated.

For the record, I am not a selfish inflexible cow -I just want to be able to live my own life to a degree that allows me to decide what I want. I haven't spent the best part of 20 years in education to be a doormat. It seems however, that I would be viewed as such a monster in the military environment. It really does appear that wives are commodities and not people in themselves.

I am genuinely hurt by the accusations that I'm selfish - perhaps I should now take my leave and go back to my hole.

[jolly tar]

I would just like to thank those who have pointed me in the direction of other information and also for other helpful posts.:)

[rej]

Life as a partner is what you make it but here goes on what it is really like:

The expectation of weekly coffee mornings on a Thursday in the Officers' Mess;

Flower arrranging with the snr officers wives normally happens on a Tuesday followed by a Bridge School in the afternoon:

Flower arranging in the evenings running up to dining-in nights and official functions;

Ballroom dancing classes with husband whilst he is a JO;

Hubby will be expected to go to Happy Hour on a Friday starting at 1700 and ending as required. It is expecetd that you will collect him from the Mess but don't worry, you will have plenty of company from the other wives as as you loiter in thge Mess carpark waiting for hours to see him stagger from the bar.

finally, all year round he will sport a fine sun tan from all the time he spends in sunnier climes.
..........;)

ps please don't tell my fiancee any of the above :E

[jolly tar]

At 23 - I'm far too young for that ^

:ooh:

Kill me, kill me now. :p

[InTgreen]

Do you love him? Tha is really the crux of the matter. All the above to some extent or another are true, however it is what you make of it. I live a good way from the base where I am at now, my wife has her own career as a doctor - the bonus is that she can move easier than most jobs when I am posted, but this does not mean that we have always lived together. There are lots of guys with wives who live apart during the week - the question is, can you handle it? As for the leaving work at work thing - I agree. but you don't have to get involved in all the 'flower arranging' anymore!!! You can if you want but..... It may get a little more difficult if your husband ascends to high rank - then more will be expected - but that is a LONG way off..... And, at the end of the day, the parties are GOOD!

Hope it helps.......

But then, you probably will not bring this situation to a head before the OASC results come out

[skaterboi]

For the record, I am not a selfish inflexible cow -I just want to be able to live my own life to a degree that allows me to decide what I want. I haven't spent the best part of 20 years in education to be a doormat. It seems however, that I would be viewed as such a monster in the military environment. It really does appear that wives are commodities and not people in themselves.

I am genuinely hurt by the accusations that I'm selfish - perhaps I should now take my leave and go back to my hole.

On the contrary, I thought your initial post was nicely thought out and well meaning. I certainly don't view you as selfish and I'm not sure most would either. The RAF is only just starting to realise that spouses are entitled to their own careers now but it's a slow process.

Ignore The Inquisitor, he's not known for his tact and diplomacy - certainly not when he was at my station, anyway.

[Tourist]

Has your fiance considered the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm to fly?
The only reason I ask is that whilst time away etc is probably no better depending on which fleet of aircraft you fly, there is a reasonable likelyhood of never having to move home base.
Our Junglys and Lynx boys stay there whole careers at Yeovilton, and our Pingers etc stay in Cornwall.
If however he has a hard on for flying really fast, he would be back in the same boat as the RAF
Just a thought.

[El Mirador]

Hmmmm lots to think about! I am writing this on my husbands login so this is Mrs. El Mirador.
It is workable but you did need to have a huge understanding about what your fiance/husband does for a living. A pilot (from my understanding/experience and my husband is not one, though serves in the RAF) lives and breathes his job. There is no other way that he/she can do it well otherwise! It is truly vocational and is up there with being a Doctor/vet etc.
You will have constant 'let downs' that you will have to cope with. Planes go 'poorly' all the time and that great weekend you had planned can be kissed bye bye if Hubbs is stuck somewhere with a u/s plane.
This may sound slightly pappy, but if you love your fiance there is always some compromise.
I don't do flower arranging and coffee mornings but I do and have made an appearance and 'PR' my husband because I love him and genuinely believe he is the greatest and has much going for him. That done I consider my role satisfied and get on with my own life. The Military life is not overly conducive to a separate career but it again depends on character and whether you want kiddies. When my Hubbs joined up he was 19 and I went off to Uni. and we lived separately for 8 years before we married. Hubbs has been in for 18 years now and I have embarked on the long and arduous road to becoming a Barrister. I see it working out ok with the odd privations that come with standard separation.
I am a little bit concerned only in the fact that if your fiance was seriously thinking about being a pilot, you might already have a fair idea of how much aircraft will be a subject of conversation. Maybe I am wrong as I am a geek and love aircraft nerdery.
Nil desperandum! It can work and I can see you having your cake and eating it! I am criminally shy but through all the time I have been a service wife, good and bad, I would not have changed the experience one bit. It has developed me as a person and I have made some terrific friends. You do not lose your identity if you have the slightest bit of character. In fact you can positively influence your husband by just being you! You don't have to be somebody else. I kind of viewed it all as a mischievious challenge and loved pitting myself against a conventional image of the 'flower arranging' twin set and pearls...(not that there is anything wrong with flower arranging perse).
Anyway, have a good long talk with your fiance and good long think. You are you and he is him. It can work but only you can really say.
Best of luck to you and your fiance for the future.

[serf]

What is the maximum age for joining the RAF as a pilot?

[Clockwork Mouse]

Jolly
I admire your approach and don't think anyone is accusing you of being selfish. And if you choose to put your own career first, noone would consider you a monster. The first thing to learn when in contact with the military is to take everything said with a large pinch of salt!
I was in the Army and we had 24 moves of home, but my son is an RAF FJ pilot and has had much more stability. His wife was a highly qualified midwife but had to give it up when they had kids. They lived happily on base for a long time as there was only one base for what he flew. They had a good social life, made lifelong friends and were protected and comfortable.
Now they have bought their own house and he has been posted abroad, so they are having to let it out and move the kids' school because their priority is to live together as a family.
There is a lot of good stuff on this thread for you to learn from, and some rubbish too. The main things to hoist in are:
a. Married life in the Services is not like civilian life, but there are great rewards as well as significant disadvantages.
b. Life on a married patch is usually actually quite pleasant, friendly, supportive and not at all rigid and "officers' wifey" as some have portrayed. Most of your neighbours will be PLUs (people like us) with a lot in common. Most officers' wives are actually bright, intelligent, fun and very practical.
c. You will have to decide your priorities early: perhaps have seperate careers to start with and at some point live together, buy home, have children. It will be a great test of your commitment to each other, so make sure you discuss and agree your choices.
You are doing exactly the right thing in gathering as much information as you can. If you have friends in the RAF, visit and get a feel for their way of life.
Good luck!

[SRENNAPS]

Jolly tar,

First of all, apologies for my rather blunt reply to you. I actually posted it deliberately to generate discussion. (You had not had a single post between 20:06 and 23:29 last night). You will find that here on Prune to generate discussion you need to post something blunt or controversial. It always gets a response.

However, I will elaborate on my post:

A career in the Royal Air Force is not just a job; it is a way of life. There has to be commitment, which can involve sacrifice, from your fiancé, yourself and your children if and when you have them.

The opportunities, experiences and rewards can be wonderful for your entire family. I spent 29 fantastic years in the RAF. I was married for 27 of them and have two wonderful daughters who are both now in their early twenties and doing very well in life. We went with the flow of 3 year postings and living in married quarters. Yes sometimes the kids did not want to leave their friends and my wife did not want to leave her job. But they also found it exciting moving to new location. We spent a total of 12 years living at RAF Bruggen in Germany. Life for all of my family was always an adventure. My younger daughter learnt to speak fluent German, only because she made friends with the local Germans in Elmpt. She is still in touch with them to this day and goes out to stay with them at least once a year. I, my wife and my daughters made friends with many people across the country and in Germany and we are still in touch with many of them. I remember my eldest daughter, when she was 14 years old, telling me that her street cred at Bruggen was higher than other kids because her dad was on a Sqn, serving in the gulf; how brill did I think that was. We also totally enjoyed our social life on the various camps, Bruggen and Odiham probably being the best. We travelled often, not just once or twice a year on holiday but regularly by car or train, in hotels or camping exploring Europe and taking every advantage of the unique situation we were in.

These are the experiences that you cannot get by having a civilian life. We are now settled in our dream home, I am out of the RAF and my kids have flown the nest. We all have fantastic memories of what was “My” career in the RAF and I think we are (especially my daughters) better off for it.

Having said all that please do not think it may not be the life for you.

The RAF has changed dramatically over the years. Most people live in their own homes; most wives have full careers these days. Germany and other great overseas posting have gone and social life is more planned rather than spur of the moment. (Definitely not the life for me).

I do believe that your fiancé could join as a pilot and have a truly rewarding career with some of the advantages spinning off to you. You could have a career and you can most certainly live in your own home. However, there will be times when hard and difficult choices will have to be made. Life is always a compromise, but look at it as an opportunity. You only get one shot at life; make the most of it.

Whatever you do, I do wish you and your fiancé all the very best and hope it all works out for you.

[Backwards PLT]

Jolly

Apologies if I repeat some stuff - I read the first few posts and skimmed the rest.

There is a lot of misleading/oldfashioned bulls**t on this thread. The old days of semi-compulsory coffee mornings and flower arranging have either disappeared completely or are a minority activity. The majority of wives are intelligent, self-sufficient women who have a career of their own. Doctors and teachers seem common - easy to move! It isn't the 1970s anymore. My wife found that each new place we went to she would go to a coffee (often means wine btw!) thing or a party/ball and as anywhere in life there would be some wives she didn't get on with and some she did. After that you just socialise with those you get on with!

That said, becoming an RAF pilot is hard work and takes a long time. As others have said the training is very mobile but you can make it work with weekly commuting (for him, not you). The problem comes when he is posted to his first proper tour (about 3 years). You cannot live apart forever so a bit of give and take is required ie you give, he takes!!!!

I see why some people thought your position was selfish, but it is no more so than the guy who says "OK I am off to join the RAF and you need to follow me. Forget your career/friends/home" Some compromise is required all round. After 16 years in the RAF and half of that married, all my career/posting decisions are now made with my family as the most important consideration. Unfortunately in the early years you get very little say in where you go!

On th married quarters subject, they seem to be personal taste, but personally I couldn't stand them. Buy your own house and escape from the RAF for a few hours.

On the bright side, if your husband is just thinking of joining, the chances of him making it are pretty slim! Oh, and its cool to be married to a fighter pilot!

[postscript]

I think Mrs El Mirador, described the situation very well. As Mrs Postscript, I can say I knew exactly what I was letting myself in for as I had done 10 years as an Adminer before leaving on pregnancy. There are some postings that I have moved with hubby and others where I have chosen to stay in our home. I am professionally qualifed and do have a career, but have accepted that whilst I move jobs every 2 years, my career aspirations are limited for the time being, although being the mother of young children doesn't help either! By far the best thing though about being a service wife, and here I have to take exception with some of the comments made about officers wives, are the friends that I have made. I couldn't hope for a friendlier more supportive environment, most of the other sqn wives, both at his current base and previous ones, are intelligent, highly qualified individuals and it is a great relief to know we are all in the same boat. We live in crap accommodation (but, learn to laugh about it!), we have had to re-adjust our career aspirations, although to be fair, most women have to do this anyway if they have kids and we all moan and whinge about the time they spend away/having to cope by ourselves etc. If he does join up, may I offer some advice:

1) Make sure you have your own home somewhere. Even if you can't always live there, just the knowledge that you can escape 'magnolia world' and don't have to rely totally on the DHE is a comfort.

2) Put the effort into going along to the odd happy hour/coffee morning/wives function etc. These days they are not full of social climbing SOWs (Senior Officers Wives), although in my experience they never were, but great for meeting other people like you, who will sympathsize, offer practical advice and a good laugh.

Good luck!

[TheInquisitor]

Jolly Tar,

Firstly let me apologise if my first post was worded overly-harshly. Sadly Skaterboi is correct, I've never been known for my tact and diplomacy! (Plus, I was a litte grumpy last night).

Pretty much everything that has been said so far is valid - you don't HAVE to become an Officer's 'wifey' and turn up to all the coffee mornings, etc. BUT - if he is planning to make an advancing career out of this, some of that will be expected. If he just wants to join and fly as a line pilot, then you could easily make yourself virtually invisible to the Service.

Yes, many wives DO have full careers, but there is a price to pay - the vast majority of them, as already mentioned, have highly 'portable' careers such as in medicine or education (it was estimated, not so long ago, that some 75% of RAF pilots were married to Teachers or Medics!) - ergo they can move around when their husband gets posted with relative ease. There are also the times your future husband will spend away from home on Operational detachments to consider - a real issue if you plan to have a full career AND kids sometime in the future. Contrary to what one poster claimed earlier, you CANNOT have it all, especially as a Service wife, and you need to think about whether you are willing to compromise on that. After all, your guy will, at the end of the day, be required to do as he is told and it will almost certainly at some point upset your plans or greatly inconvenience you in some way, and there will be sod-all that you (or he) will be able to do about it.

I think your expectation to live in your dream house in your 'dream location' may well be totally unrealistic, if you want to have any home life at all. Depending on where it is, you may find that you won't be able to live in it at all during his time in the RAF. What you need is a willingness to compromise; if you go in from the beginning with some red-line absolutes, it really will not work for you. As a pilot, his most likely postings will be Lincolnshire, Wiltshire, Oxfordshire or Scotland for front-line tours - that's about it. Yes, most people do own their own homes, but they tend to buy near where they are posted, and not necessarily where they would absolutely WANT to live.

I know this all sounds like doom and gloom, and yes, for alot of people it simply doesn't work and something has to give (sadly, it's the marriage that gives more often than not). But for many, it does work - you just have to be willing to put up with it. As already mentioned here, there are many opportunities for a life and experiences that you will not get married to a civillian. Those who enter into this with their eyes open and realistic expectations are the ones who generally make a success of it.

I hope that has been a little more useful to you (and much less insulting - I apologise once again). Good luck with your decision.

[Merlin the Happy Pig]

Hello Jolly

My partner is a senior support helicopter person. He's been in 20 years. We live together - but off the patch. Like you I'm independent and have a good career.

I've been adamant from the start that hell would have to freeze before I would move onto the patch. We couldn't live on his salary alone so becoming a career wife isn't an option even if I wanted to go to coffee mornings and arrange flowers. We live 45 mins from his base and about 90 mins from my office.

We try to compromise and support each other where we can. He recognises that my work and life is as important to me as his work is to him. He is totally committed and loyal to the RAF and I know he finds it incredibly hard trying to balance work with family - but he tries his best. Knowing that he will always try his hardest makes up for the times I feel craped on by the RAF (I have to admit I will not forgive his desk officer for the two week notice posting which lasted for 2 years and meant we could only see each other at weekends).

I have a great support network of friends I've know for over 10 years so when he does go away (which is about 4-5 months a year) I know I have people close by who will help me at the drop of a hat. That said - civilian friends don't understand what its like having a partner in a theatre of war. A husband on business in the US for 2 weeks is not the same as having a partner in Iraq for 3 months. I do have a good friend who is married to and RAF person and she is invaluable. We can laugh at the crazy stuff together as well as sharing our fears.

If your chap loves you I'm sure he will try and compromise for you - but in order to become a pilot and to succeed in his career he will need to be single-minded and focused on his job in a way that is very different from your progress of your career. At times this will mean he won't be able to give you the attention and support you may want and need. That's when you'll need your friends and family. There's no point in whingeing down the phone or in an email about the fact the bin men have forgotten to collect your re-cycling or that your boss has made you work an extra hours or you've got an important deadline looming that's freaking you out. If he's in a desert it will just seem unbelievably trivial to him and you won't get the response you want. It took me a while to realise this. He'll have a life completely different from your friends and their partners - but that makes it all the more interesting! My friends all love him and think he's great.

There are plenty of other professions that are all consuming and inflexible e.g. surgeon, partner in a city law/accountancy firm. Its not just the military. My ex-husband was a surgeon and when he was training at the start of his career we moved countless times and he worked awful hours.

Plus sides of having a pilot partner:

Flying suits can be quite sexy - just ignore the long johns
The summer balls and christmas parties are usually pretty good
They are very good at ironing (suggestion: iron badly so they do your stuff too)
They are more interesting than accountants

Talk to each other. Try and be flexible. Be prepared to compromise (you may both have to consider commuting long distances - again normal for many professions not just military). Just as you have ambitions and dreams - so does he.

Most importantly - Retain your sense of humour at all times. You will need it!

The Happy Pig x

[MaroonMan4]

What a superb thread - and certainly got Mrs MM4 interested.

All of the above stuff is spot on for Jolly - even the grumpy posts will be just like your fiance when he has an off day :)

Mrs MM4 has been superb at balancing the husband PR/ 'show your face routine' with a career as well as being the continuity with the family. It certainly isn't perfect, but no professional career is I would suggest.

For what it is worth, and without being condescending - be yourself, give it a go (you both sound young enough) and above all, as already mentioned, talk to each other and communicate.

The worst thing is that you both re-assess your situation in the years ahead when you move into a different phase of life (kids, your job, his promotion etc).

The other thing to remember is that if you don't give it a go as a team, then he may just go through life wondering 'what if' everytime a military piece of hardware flys past and he looks skyward.

Regardless, my sincerest best wishes in whatever you decide to do together.

[L J R]

Has your husband ever killed anyone.


I shall say no more....

[jolly tar]

Again, thank you for all your replies.

I've not had chance to reply to them as my parents have decided they are coming to visit this morning so I've been manically preparing the house as dad hasn't quite got out of his RAF mentality. I swear if I ever hear ¨the jobs not over until the paperwork is done¨ or anything of that ilk again I might just disown him. His intolerance to mess and inefficiency is well known... Perhaps this is one of the reasons I'm so concerned with the proposed career plans ;)

I shall have a proper read this evening.

The last comment is confusing me - is this another attempt to get me to ¨bite¨. a person with some chip on their shoulder or a constructive comment that hasn't quite been explained fully? Perhaps you'd care to elaborate.

[L J R]

If you consider it a gripe/ chip on shoulder, fair enough. - read no more

....but do you know how to handle a person who comes home from det and knows what he has done to someone else in a foreign land...

The Forces are a deadly serious employer.



...maybe the coffee etc are not all about discussing flower and butterfly collections. They could be a release for those who have something to discuss - even though they may not actually discuss this unsavoury aspect of their partner's employment. Not everyone has a portable career (My spouse is an artist).....but a mother first, a supportive wife second, and a employee third. This is not for everyone, but I need my spouse at home (not a commute) to be there when the above occurs. Selfish - YES, a necessity - arguably. Make your own choice....but do not forget the real job is that of military reality.


Feel free to PM. - Cheers

[jolly tar]

I wasn't trying to say you had a grudge etc, but I was just wary considering some of the other responses to encourage ¨discussion¨

I'm not disputing that the forces are an essential part of Britain, but I do have a problem with the less humane side of it. The idea of taking someone elses life, no matter what they have done absolutely disgusts me - I believe that noone has the right to take another human life as we are not the ones to judge another person to the point of taking their life. This is another underlying reason for my reluctance to be part of it.

Under no circumstances am I saying that you are bad people for doing it - there are some people who could, and some people who couldn't. I'm a firm believer that its a personal choice and not one to be put on upon people (I can't stand people who bang on about your choices being wrong and following the wrong paths - this includes militant vegetarians and anti war protesters -everyone has the right to chose what they think is right, but they do not have the right to impress their ideas on others)

This is the crux of it - I could not stay with a man who had taken someone elses life - someone who had a family just like me, who had children and a wife/mother. He does not share the same view as I do, and holds a more realistic view that you're there to nuke the nutters. However I sometimes wonder who has the greater right to this - after all we are all just following what we're taught and believe in, and at the end of the day who are we to judge what is right and wrong as we each believe that the moral stance we take is correct.

For some, this wouldn't be so much of an issue, and I am thankful for those who can and do their best to protect us all, but I'm not sure its something I could face on such close quarters.

I apologise for the rambling post, I'm very dyslexic and find it hard to put down into words what I'm thinking - however its a lot easier to talk face to face as more people can get what I'm going on about ;)

[jolly tar]

Seeing as I'm sat here and avoiding finishing off the cleaning I may as well finish what I wanted to say earlier.

Re: housing - I'm not sure I made my position clear. I have been in the very fortunate position of being able to buy property already. Hence the reluctance to let it go (especially with the crazy things happening in the financial world at the moment)with the added inconvenience that its in South Yorkshire which isn't much use for commuting anywhere (except within Yorkshire I suppose!)

Also, I have elderly parents (adoptive parents before people get confused with the huge age gap!) and it is quite likely that in the next few years I will be tasked solely with their care. Coupled with children (my desire to be a mother is extremely high - I'm not terribly academic and find that a role as a mother suits me much better but I'm determined to use what little brains I've been given to forge out some form of career so I can prove to myself that I am capable of it, no matter how much hard work is needed to do it) I'm not sure I could take on the role of a forces wife. Despite the reassurance that it can and should work, I think the strain put on us from all of this might just be too great. It isn't likely that it would be so great if the relationship was outside of such an environment, but I get the feeling that it might just be too much to take on all those roles.

I should get back to my role as a housewife right now ;)

[Al R]

Hi JT,

I dropped you a PM before I saw your last post - some of which is more relevent as a result I guess. Whatever your bias towards the academic, you seem remarkably well adjusted ('if in doubt, recce out' - yes daughter, its your father here) and this might be interesting to you. Its a thread about a lady who said 'yes' after she was proposed to in public. I'm not suggesting either way is better, but there's certainly a contrast in styles!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322727

I do however, have one or two concerns..

Seeing as I'm sat here and avoiding finishing off the cleaning :=

I should get back to my role as a housewife right now :D

Well recovered - the jobs not over until the paperwork is done.

[Clockwork Mouse]

"I could not stay with a man who had taken someone elses life".

That answers your question then. Under no circumstances should you consider being partner to a member of the Forces. What on earth do you think your man will be training for?

We are not in the Forces for the money or glamour or power. There are no humane and inhumane sides to serving in the Forces. You, young lady, have been able to buy your own property because your society and way of life has long been protected by the sacrifice of people who were prepared to die or kill to defend our country when necessary, your father included.

Go and enjoy a peaceful life hugging bunnies and leave the real world to those prepared to accept and take responsibility for it.

Good luck to you still.

[jolly tar]

I think your post is rather unfair.

I'm grateful for those who feel they can do what you all do - but for me, its not something I could shoulder. Surely its better to admit that its something I'm not comfortable with rather than going along with it until the crunch time and bailing out when it gets too much.

Everyone makes some positive impact on society - some more than others. I'm sorry if you think that I only extend to ¨bunny hugging¨ In the end, everything is about making an informed decision and that is just what I am doing. I came here to find out what the truth was so I could make mine - not to be accused of living the perfect life thanks to others being prepared to lose theirs - I never asked anyone to lay down their life for me, and I am extremely grateful that some do. However, in that position myself, I could not do it myself nor support someone who also felt this way. Yes I need to be aware of it, and yes it is a huge issue, but again, its part of the decision making - not a point to be judged on.

[MaroonMan4]

Jolly,

Sorry - and LJR you really do post some contentious and cantankerous 'grumpy' posts - but on this one you have scratched the surface to uncover another facet/direction for this thread (and one that maybe Jolly you might not want to get involved in with us lot).

Whether we like it or not - the potential to conduct warfare is our professional business when required by Queen and a democratically elected country (i.e. the politicians that represent the country).

If there is any doubt at all - even a incey wincey teeney weeney bit - that you will not be able to support your future husband should he return from Operations having pulled a trigger or cued someone on to pull a trigger or dropped people that pull a trigger - then you need to sit down with your fiance pronto to re-align both of your future expectations.

No one likes killing women and children - no one - but maybe it is not as black and white as you may like it to be. Maybe the 14 year 'child' is about to fire at a fully laden Chinook with an RPG, maybe the women are re-supplying ammunition to a 12.7 Heavy Machine Gun and end up next to position that is killing British servicemen - all hypothetical of course, but just maybe Queen and country will expect your future husband to kill someone in order to save lives.

Again maybe one for you to throw into the pot when discussing the 'shall we -shan't we' with the parents over Sunday lunch. :)

[Clockwork Mouse]

Sorry Jolly. I apologise for coming across a bit strong. You struck a nerve.
However, please understand that if your man joins the RAF he will be making a clear commitment to fight if required. If you cannot accept the possibility that he may consequently have to kill or be killed, then the life as a Service wife is not for you. You will have to pursuade him to remain a civilian or you will have to bin him. Sorry.

[jolly tar]

I really didn't want to get into this discussion - I simply came here to find the facts and no debate the wider issue.

I think you're probably right - I'd make a terrible service wife. I had pretty much come to that conclusion myself, but for the sake of my fiance thought I should dig deeper to make sure I wasn't basing my judgements on biased personal experiences or myths. In the end, this decision concerns both of us and it is for the benefit of both that a clearer picture has to be painted.

In the end, I admire you for the jobs that you do - but I really don't think its the life that I would want to associate myself with. In no way at all do I think that any of you are bad people or anything like that. You chose your career, the same as I will choose mine - you all took into consideration the pros and cons just as I am doing too.

Yes, there is a wider moral issue to tackle, and in the end most prejudice and incorrect assumptions are born of lack of information. I myself know this from personal experiences with work I'm currently undertaking within the nuclear fuel industry. If you want to stop a conversation at 2 paces, tell them that you're working on spent nuclear fuel storage when asked what you're currently doing.

This is going to have to be talked about in great depth later this week, but from what has been said, its crunch time.

[MaroonMan4]

Jolly,

Not one of the threads that I have read has said that you will make a 'terrible Service wife' - far from it. It is all about compromise and what you both really want out of life.

Just because you have hit a moral issue, face up to it, discuss it and 'bounce the ball around a bit'. You should know as anyone, there are many a person in this country that were on the frontline of CND and anti-Sellafield in days gone by, that have now accepted and rationalised their fears, concerns and angst.

Maybe you will do the same. I am not saying that the water is fine, jump on in - I am saying continue to dip your toe in the water and explore before making any future life changing decisions - whichever way you both go in the end.

[jolly tar]

Perhaps its my past that has created this mute point.

I have known so much sadness and grief in my life that I'll do anything to minimise further upset. I suppose its self preservation - but I know that in my 23 years, I've had the lifetime amount of angst and misery of many. I just don't want any more - a plain old boring day to day life would suit me just fine. The less chance of emotion ridden decisions and situations the better as far as I'm concerned.

Emotionally hurting people, intentionally or not (for instance whether I could bring myself to support someone in a situation where they seek reassurance when in a combat situation) is something I don't rest easy with. Having had those in my past who walk away when the proverbial hits the fan, I know that support from the ones you love is crucial. This makes me wonder if I should even be entering into a situation where the likely hood of this is greater than in most other careers, fully knowing that I'd most likely be unable to offer support at that time.

Yes time may change it, but I feel it unwise to enter into it without fully justifying my own feelings and being told that ¨things will change, you'll cope etc etc¨ when I am unsure of my abilities to do that.

[effortless]

One of the biggest things a wife has to deal with is failure. How will you be able to cope with a man who has pretty well sacrificed you and himself to becoming a pilot only to be chopped a long way down the line? This is one of the main differences from a civilian high flyer. Someone aiming for the captaincy of industry is just as likely to be mobile and unavailable to his family but failure is rarely so sudden or so final.

The issue of death is a real one. My experience of service families, which stretches from my own childhood to the present day, has shown me the stress that is put on wives. Hearing the news of casualties has made some of them literally wet themselves. Seeing the padre and a couple of mates come along the road is one of the worst experiences of your life even when he passes by your home. The other side of the equation, dealing with a killer in your bed, is not such an issue in the RAF as the killing is a bit once removed and Pilots rarely have to confront what they have done. If your man wanted to join the paras, it would be a different matter. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to portray pilots as insensitive beasts. It is just that they don't often see what they have done in great detail.

[El Mirador]

Hello Jolly Tar once more!
It's Mrs El Mirador here again.
You come across as a very competent young lady but I would say from your last post that marriage full stop is not for you just yet. You are young and have a lifetime of (by the sound of it) pretty grim experiences. I think that if you want to avoid emotional rollercoasters, then marriage, kids, sticking your head out of the front door and watching the news are going to have to be ruled out. Regardless of job, marriage isn't always flowers around the door.
I appreciate the innocence in which you find killing a person abhorrant but life is riddled with the oddest of paradoxes!
Greatest one is people who are so against animal testing but have a pet!!!
The drugs, fleasprays, food etc. that they give to poochykins have at one time been tested on another animal!
I digress but my point is there is always a much wider picture.
Stay as you are and you can maybe support your fiance in the pursuit of his dreams. You will know when it's time to bow out or go further.
You seem frightened about the future fullstop. Given your past, that's not suprising but the future happens and closing yourself off to any potential situation that will cause negativity, is impossible.
Have a really good talk with your boyfriend!

[Brain Potter]

Jolly Tar,

There is no typical 'model' of life in the RAF that can be applied across the whole service. The only experience that wives can be certain of sharing is that of coping with the deployment of their husbands on operations.

Forget about all this coffee morning and flower-arranging nonsense. The progress of your husband's career would not depend your participation in social and pastoral activities. However, your marriage and his career might become mutually exclusive if you cannot understand and provide support for him when he deploys on operations.

By saying:

the idea of taking someone elses life, no matter what they have done absolutely disgusts me - I believe that noone has the right to take another human life as we are not the ones to judge another person to the point of taking their life

This is a clear statement that your moral values are based on pacifism. As you say, the principle tenet of this philosophy is that the idea of taking human life is as morally wrong as the act of doing so. Such beliefs are rare but are properly recognized by British society, which in it's hour of greatest peril did not expect persons with such deep convictions to wear uniform, even in non-combatant roles.

By contemplating a career in the RAF your future husband has indicated that he is comfortable with the idea of taking human life for the greater good, highlighting the fact that you and he do not share the same moral values. Maybe this episode has revealed a fundamental incompatibility in your shared morality-base that would surely present problems in your relationship, even if he chooses not to pursue a career in HM Forces.

Best of luck to both of you with your decisions.

[Biggus]

Jolly Tar,

I'm not sure why you bothered to post here. From the very beginning it would appear you already know the answer - that being a military wife is almost certainly not for you (if of course, and thats a big if, your fiance is accepted into the RAF).

In your very first post you say....

'To say that I am less than enthusiastic is an understatement......'

'I wont be moving to a base (that I point blank refuse - I like my independence in my own home far too much) .....'

'hopefully I have secured a dream job that will keep my in my current location....'

'From what I've read, it sounds like I'll be signing up for an utterly miserable existence.........'

So, while your fiance joins, and moves around for the next 5 odd years as a minimum doing his flying training you will stay in your own location, and not socialise with any of his work colleages - so what are you contributing to your relationship? And if he continues to move every 3-4 years?

Then there is the, significant, discussion later in this thread about your own moral feelings (which you are perfectly entitled to) about the use of miltary force. Most people (thankfully) don't join the military for the chance to take someones else's life - but for all of us it a possibility we must face, and be able to live with. One of the current catchphrases in the RAF is...'warfighter first, (insert specialization) second'... and there is very much an emphasis on military skills for all, from chef to front line soldier. Most people in the miltary may still serve an entire career without recourse to using military force, but the possibility exists for all, more so these days ....

At the end of the day you sound totally incompatible for any association with the military. While that doesn't necessarily doom any future life as a military wife you are starting from a less than ideal position, and nothing you say implies you are 'up' for the challenge, fully ready to give it a go, if anything the opposite.

So once again I would question why you posted (which of course you are perfectly entitled to do). Are you just seeking conformation of a decision you have already reached?

[Occasional Aviator]

Jolly,

welcome to the forum. I think Biggus is being somewhat harsh on you. You have legitimate doubts and it is a very good idea to get some advice. I am currently going through a gut-wrenching separation, with the pricipal reason my wife has given me is that she just didn't know what it meant to be a military wife.
At the end of the day, the military effectively makes absolutely no allowance for partners' aspirations, careers etc unless they fit in with the lifestyle forced on you. That's not to say that people don't make it work, but it is tough. Really tough. And that's both of you. I can't describe the feeling I had when I was sent on ops at very short notice for 6 months - leaving my wife not knowing where I was or where I would be posted when I came back. Nearly three years later, I'm still being 'blamed' for this, and Mrs OA is traumatised enough that she can't listen to the news on the radio any more when casualties overseas are announced, after waving me off three times in two years to places she was convinced I'd return from in a box. As for support, we were not living on the married patch and my last det was not with a formed unit - so she didn't even get a phone call from anyone in the RAF all the time I was away. Even now I'm in a settled desk job, she doesn't see me during the week as I'm a weekly commuter and she still can't believe that I won't be sent away and 'abandon' her again. It's also not easy being in a less-than-private phone booth in an operational theatre watching your 20-minute weekly call allowance tick away while you listen to desparate sobs or angry silence. I'm not selling this very well, but I would say that from what you have posted, if there's doubt in your mind now you have a real risk of ending up bitter and hurt. That said, people in much worse situations than me make it work. TALK to your fiance, talk long and hard and find out what really matters.

[L J R]

Spot on OA....:D

[jolly tar]

Well, I think that this thread has run its course now. Its down to us two to decide how its going to work, and if it can.

Time will tell I suppose.

Thank you all for your contributions - each one provoked debate and caused me to think further.