Start of my dream. Day 1

[princeoftheskies]

Hi,

Finally after sourcing the funds (saved for ages and house sale money) i am going to start the training to live my dream (airline pilot).

I went to a flying school today (not going to name names but in cheshire) and was a bit, well, disheartened by what the instructor said to me. I got there and asked the usual questions of price, whats the best order to do things and the response i got was a boring, disheartened, fed up rant of how much he owes the bank and unless i have money to burn i will never get an airline job. He told me i would need to spend 40-50k on a modular fatpl, then at least 20k in a type rating and even then i will have no chance of getting a job unless i pay out for 1000+ hours on a simulator.

He stuttered terribly and generally seemed like he didnt care whether i booked some lessons or not (which i obviously didnt)

Surely all flying schols arent that bad?

Does anybody know of a good training school, closish to Alsager, stoke on trent that offers the modular fatpl? , or at least ppl, cpl and me (i could train for the rest elsewhere)

I was told that i should do all the ppl exams and get my class 1 medical before doing any flying whatsoever so its out of the way. Does that seem like good advice?

I was also told that i should train for my Instrument Rating last after ive got all my hours as i wouldnt need to keep paying to revalidate it as im training for all the rest?!?!

Is that right?

:)

[JB007]

Princeoftheskies LOL Oh dear god!

Can I suggest you do ALOT more research before you spend a penny and become Prince Of The Skies (ok, now i'm taking the p*ss!)! If you have the money to go for it, great! But some of the questions you're asking is information you should know before going any further into Pilot Training.

Don't think any further than your PPL at this stage, the mountain you have before you is enormous...

19th April Renaisance Hotel @ LHR may be a good place to start for ideas, 0900! Flyer Pilot Training Show.

[maxdrypower]

Where in Cheshire did you go ??????? Hawardens in N Wales , Liverpool is in , well liverpool and Barton is in Salford . Hard to recommend you somewhere when we dont know where you have just had bad info .
Unfortunately nowhere is close to Alsager , I know I live in Sandbach . Liverpool Barton and Sleap are all within 40 minutes drive and each have good schools with good instructors . And I think all three have more than one school. Try again . The pricing he gave you is about right though
and try this before asking anything else
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649

[Bealzebub]

Whatever training you want to do, you should feel comfortable and confident with the provider and its employees. There is plenty of choice and if you do a bit of proper research (on here and elsewhere) you should soon acquire a feel for what you should be looking for.

In fact although it wasn't the best "sell" and probably not what you wanted to hear, that instructor was probably giving you a good idea of what you might expect when the "dream" starts to turn into the "reality". He is certainly right in that you should invest money in the medical before you start to part with serious funds in pursuit of flying training. You should also embark on this one step at a time. Provided that investing in a Private Pilots Licence would be a goal in itself, then there is no reason why you shouldn't embark on flight training straight away, and undertake those ground studies relevant to that license during the course of that training. That is what most people do in any event.

After the PPL has been obtained you will be looking to consolodate and then expand your limited experience with progression on to slightly more advanced general aviation aircraft types, and other ratings that remove some of the restrictions placed on you. If you have a career goal in mind, it is then the time to start looking further into the options that would lead you on to a professional pilots license (CPL/IR and ATPL). There are different routes you can take and the costs and school options vary depending on the choices you make.

Airline flying is the top section of a very big pyramid. The climb to the top for most people is very expensive and can be extremely frustrating. The attrition rate is high, and there are no guarantees. Despite that many people do succeed in their aspirations, and for most not without considerable hardship and certainly a great deal of expense. Those that do make it will quickly learn that the expectations of the "dream" are soon replaced by the more mundane realization that it is still just a job. It would be true to say that is usually still a very good job, but that doesn't distract from the fact that there are other important things in life.

The instructor you spoke to was a poor salesman, and if I employed him at that school he would now be looking for another job. As a business I would be happy to take your cash and let you live with your dream, since your cash would be what makes my dreams come true ! In fact I think he did you a favour by bringing you down to Earth with a bit of a bump, and providing an insight into the reality that he and many other instructors and would be airline pilots actually face.

[princeoftheskies]

JB007,

My surname is Prince , hence the name (nothing to do with a silly catchy name).

I thought thats what this forum was about? , to find out things?

I dont think i need to know everything before embarking on a training. I know alot of things , but dont profess to know wverything , hence the reason i registered here and asked the questions.

:rolleyes:

[Wilton Shagpile]

JB007 is quite right!! You need to do a lot more research....:eek:

"I dont think i need to know everything before embarking on a training"

WRONG. You do. You need to have a plan...it is very important. Think of it like decorating a room...you need to know the right order....e.g. you've finished the plastering and the carpet has arrived but you were a bit late ordering the wallpaper and it hasn't arrived yet. You rush out to buy some but in your haste it doesn't match the carpet. Meanwhile, you lay the carpet but you haven't finished painting the woodwork and you get paint on the carpet..

That probably sounds stupid, but it will be much easier if you know where you're going before you start and get the timings right. It will be a LOT cheaper too and will save you doing flying you don't need to. I wouldn't spend a penny till I had a big sheet of paper outlining my timescales and EVERYTHING I needed to do....that way you will be ordering your ATPL groundschool stuff at exactly the right time and plan your hour building so you finish with the minimum hour just before your CPL course etc.. Also, ask yourself if you need to do an IMC? If so, why? How about night? If so, why... How about multi? Where? IR at the same time or later? If so why? US or UK? Why and what parts? FAA with conversion or JAA? Why? How? What are the differences? PPL here or in US? Why? FAA or JAA? Does it matter? Why? You need to have an answer to this stuff really before you begin. Why? Well, if you decide to do an FAA PPL then you need to plan that now to get the TSA stuff done....if you haven't considered it then why not? You know, I'm not saying that it is the right decision, just you kind of need to have thought it through.

Go to the Flyer exhibition, but remember that the people you talk to want your money so they will tell you what you want to hear.

You need to understand the structure of modular training and in what order you need to do the various licenses and ratings. You seem to have done the planning as far as getting the money together (the hardest part) which is a great start. You also need to understand how to save money (e.g. flying in the US) and budget for an FI rating to increase your chances of getting a job.

Pprune is a great resource for you so rather than asking questions, why not do a little reading first....it is ALL here. You won't get people to respond with good answers when they have seen people ask the SAME basic questions a hundred times without doing any research of their own. Also, email a variety of schools if you can't get to London for the Flyer thing and get them to send you brochures or check their websites to get information.

Also, check LASORS carefully - this will tell you how many hours you need for (and prior to) each section so it will let you plan you training and hour building accordingly and save you a small fortune if you do it right.

PM me if you want although I won't be happy to answer the "where should I train and in what order should I do it" question - you need to decide that for yourself. Specifics only please!!!!! :)

Anyway, well done for taking the first step.....

[HappyFran]

From what I see above and your experience with the F/I I guess it all seems a bit depressing.:\

However if you have done some research and saved up your pennies it is all quite possible, it just requires a great wade of money and unimaginable commitment.

Your certainly should get a Class 1 medical before going to far as that is an absolute showstopper without one.
It will cost you ~£70K to even get a CV on an airline desk.

JB007 is offering goood advise, you really should get down and visit the The Flyer Show at Heathrow in April...that will give you avery good flavour for the industry.

Sorry no help on flying schools in NW as I am on South coast..but would be supraised if there is not a fairly local flying club in area which you could train with at least up to PPL.

Good Luck :)

[Kerosine]

Someone can spend a week researching a TV to spend £500 and half a day buying it. That person can spend a week researching a flying career to spend £40,000 and 3 years 'buying' it.
Not saying this is you princeoftheskies, but make sure you spend a proportionate amount of time looking into the career.

Also bear in mind this forum has been running donky's years, there have been people before in similar situations who have asked similar questions.
You will find that some of your questions will be responded to quite coldly with 'do a search', this is to stop the same issue being repeated again and again. Spend as much time as possible looking through existing threads, good luck (and sorry to hear about a bad first experience!)

[princeoftheskies]

Whilst i agree i need to research stuff , i dont think i should postpone doing a PPL until i know everything about the industry?!?!

EVERYBODY has to start off with a ppl and i have a family so am not going to go to another country to do iut so its a no brainer. The PPL will take me a few months to do at least so will give me that amount of time to plan the rest.

[Kerosine]

The question was about flying schools for ATPLs not PPL.


Finally after sourcing the funds (saved for ages and house sale money) i am going to start the training to live my dream (airline pilot).


Does anybody know of a good training school, closish to Alsager, stoke on trent that offers the modular fatpl?

I dont think i need to know everything before embarking on a training. I know alot of things , but dont profess to know wverything , hence the reason i registered here and asked the questions.

For your PPL, just make sure you're happy with what the school offers!

[JB007]

POTS!

You took that far too literally, I'm not suggesting you reasearch the entire industry, I am suggesting you do ALOT more research with regards to your own Pilot Training and career plan.

I was told that i should do all the ppl exams and get my class 1 medical before doing any flying whatsoever so its out of the way. Does that seem like good advice?


This is what i'm getting at; A Class 1 medical is the first stop before anything else. Your level of research is too shallow, especially if you're about to start paying out!!!

I was also told that i should train for my Instrument Rating last after ive got all my hours as i wouldnt need to keep paying to revalidate it as im training for all the rest?!?!


Again, basic stuff! An IR is a Rating you would add to your CPL, you'll have to do it last!

This forum is great to ask lots of questions, but I am always staggered by people who are prepared to spend a bl**dy fortune for a so called dream job and can't get in the car/pick up the phone and explore a few flight schools.And no offence POTS, but you don't sounds like you've done any! You've asked some very basic questions but could start spending lots of money today, without actually been aware of what you have budgeted for! IF at all....

This sounds harsh but if you really want to do this, and believe me it's going to test your characture to it's limits, you should have an idea of what schools are around you and go and talk to them - forget the donkey in Cheshire, just put it behind you! I would start at The Flyer Show before spending any money, including your PPL - lots of schools under one roof for less that a tenner if you book online!

Then you can start making choices, build a plan for yourself and a timescale and have an idea of a budget/what it will cost...

Lots of people on this website who have been there done it - so I wouldn't get aggravated/defensive by harsh advice.Besides, you're about to be assessed constantly for the next 3 years!!!!! Then you've gotta get a job...

I personally have been at the end of some very bad training which cost me a small fortune at a school in Humberside, it isn't pleasant. I now fly a B757/767 and can laugh about it but you've already come up against the sort of instructors that are out there - imagine if you'd actually started your PPL in Cheshire!!! At your stage, it is worth putting in alot of effort to get it right first time and pick schools you are very very comfortable with.

[princeoftheskies]

Hi,

Im not being funny, but just think this forum is so vast that the search doesnt always bring up the answers. I did search before i posted but couldnt find the info i needed. I think im just going to start my ppl at a school i like then research whilst im doing that.

[MarkColeman]

Don't be too disheartened by the negativity on here prince, this website is ridiculously negative alot of the time.

My advice to you would be to go slow and not rush into committing yourself to a training programme. ie. take a couple of flying lessons, see if its really for you. Then do some research on ppl subjects, and more importantly atpl subjects. After that try to get an idea of what instrument flying is all about, be realistic and make a decision if its all for you. If you think it is then go for it.

Be careful to research well any flying school you encounter and then decide on one.

I've seen plenty of people without any aptitude attempt the training and fail miserably, pouring thousands of pounds down the drain in the process - so make damn well sure its for you and you will have the commitment to stick to the training. Then enjoy!

[princeoftheskies]

Hi,

Thanks for the first positive reply.

Ive just downloaded lasors off the caa website now so will be getting a blank piece of paper, and putting the different things i need to in order and what hors i need in between and then work out a plan.

I think im going to pick a day next week and just drive round all the local flying schools and then pick one from there.

Thanks

[Wilton Shagpile]

Pprune is a superb resource there's no doubt but you can get a lot of information from the schools too.....forget all the stuff about their school being the best etc. just look at the facts. i.e what do I need to do and in what order. What are the options, how can I save money on the way. I don't think anybody is trying to be negative - personally I am glad when somebody takes a risk to achieve a long standing goal, but nobody wants to see you get fleeced or spend your hard-earned and get nowt back for it that's all!!

I wouldn't even embark on the PPL withouth at least an idea of what the future holds....do you know how much it is all going to cost? I mean, REALLY cost, not just based on what people on here tell you. Can you afford to finish? What are your timescales? Will you be running into your CPL course as winter approaches? What does that mean for your timescales etc? More delay means more cost etc. Can you afford to keep current while doing the ATPL groundschool etc. If not, maybe best wait till you can?

Have you factored in the cost of working as an FI for a low salary?

I would agree with the notion of going for the Class 1 first. Unless of course you plan to fly recreationally even if you can only get a class 2.

Modular training is a jungle - sounds stupid but there are big traps for the unwary! Sometimes schools will tell you things that are just not true (the FI you spoke to telling you that you needed 1,000 simulator hours for example). Knowledge is power! ;)

[princeoftheskies]

Hi Wilton,

I want to have the fatpl on my 35th birthday (4.5yrs away)

I think from the researching ive done this afternoon im going to do it this way...

CLASS 1 MEDICAL
PPL
CPL AND ME
ATPL GROUNDSCHOOL
IR
MCC

Plus the obvious hourbuilding in between as needed.

[Kerosine]

A PPL is a great way to get a feel for flying, but before spending the real money it's worth knowing as much as you can.

Try using google to search, with Pprune included as a keyword it has better advanced search functions.. eg

~flying searches for flying, flight, plane, aeroplane etc
"flight training" searches for the exact phrase
training OR school searches for either word
-abroad displays results without the word

These the ones I use mainly, may be of use to you.

[maxdrypower]

POTS change the order of your training mate , you need atpl theory before you can do CPL

[princeoftheskies]

Hi,

Thanks for that.

Okay it will be this now then...

CLASS 1 MEDICAL
PPL
ATPL GROUNDSCHOOL
CPL AND ME
IR
MCC

[Kerosine]

Your ATPL theory can be done WHILST you are training for your CPL. They don't have to be done before.

I stand to be corrected.

[princeoftheskies]

Hi,

Well i will do the ATPL exmas whilst im hourbuilding for my CPL anyway so that would be fine for me.

[Re-Heat]

I was told that i should do all the ppl exams and get my class 1 medical before doing any flying whatsoever so its out of the way. Does that seem like good advice?
POTS

I cannot believe that you have already saved up for flying training, intended starting yesterday, and are asking extremely basic questions while planning your training based upon one afternoon's research.

Without wishing to be too negative, there are a number of sticky threads at the top of the forum, with links to all the details you need and are asking about on this thread, and years' of debate over the best course of training.

My positive message to you is to stop returning to this thread for at least a week, and post nothing further until you have read and digested all that accumulated information.

I wish you luck, but suggest no further posts until you are somewhat more informed.

[princeoftheskies]

Why is there a big secret????????????

If people know the anserw why insist on people searching through endless forums instead of just telling people?

And yes i have decided on what order as thats the order that seems most logical.

Im fed up of this forum and its negative attitude already. This is why flying instructors earn peanuts. Its there attitude and moaning ways that turn people away. I work in sales and could convert practically every person that walked through my door instead of trying to make them look stupid.

Im going to just go and research in private on other forums and stick to that.

Geez

[Another procedure]

In no way do I mean any offence, but researching the various training schools on the web and, as has previously been said, draw up a plan of attack is the most valuable advice you will probably get from Pprune!

There are many ways in attaining the goal and for someone who has been saving for a while; I think you are still a little naïve (Ground school before CPL/ME training no point in putting it off!). I have gone through what you are about to embark on and still occasionally look back with the benefit of hindsight and think how ill-informed I was before buying a product for £60,000, not to mention the loss of earnings and accommodation/living expenses I’m sure you will have too.

Go to the Flyer show, it could be a good reality check!

Nobody has mentioned an integrated course (depending on how much money ‘you have to burn’ as that instructor so eloquently put it!), which would make the need to get a PPL now an unnecessary expense. The other benefit is that it’s a bit like whipping a plaster off quickly as opposed to slowly pulling at it! However local modular training can be as effective, if not more so, depending on your situation.

So: (in my opinion (which is worth very little))

-Spend more than one afternoon on research
-Class one medical
-Definitely get a couple of trail lessons to make sure you enjoy it.
-Maybe read an ATPL ground school book to get an idea what is expected of you.
-Visit some airfields and speak to people, but go as an informed person, as I think it will mean you won’t get the same response as you did the other day.

Whatever you do after that is a choice hundreds make every year and some regret and others don’t and I wish you all the best with what can be the best career in the world. :ok:

AP

[Kerosine]

There is no secret, no negativity, just a MASSIVE HUGE GINORMOUS amount of information on every aspect of flight training and aviation careers.
You can't expect people to teach you, we're just people, everyday people, some with aviation related jobs, some without, we haven't got time to give you a complete impartial guide to your career.

At the same time, ask the right questions and people are very helpful and have a wealth of knowledge to share.

Make sure they haven't shared it already!

[Re-Heat]

There is no secret - the information is clearly laid out, and telling you piecemeal does not help when you have follow-on questions, which are also clearly explained in the old threads.

You cannot embark on training, intending to follow a "logical" order of your choosing, when clearly 24 hours ago you did not even know that a PPL was a requirement of a modular fATPL.

If you do not like taking advice and listening to people, don't bother with a career in aviation.

The reason people appear negative to you is that typically, people in aviation are consummate professionals, and have done their homework before asking scattergun questions about the basics.

Furthermore, there is no boundless optimism here, as this is one of the few places that will give you impartial and realistic advice. If you want to be swept in by the marketing, only to find in 4.5 years that your licence is worthless and there are no jobs available for someone of your experience, be my guest. There are countless licences issued to people in the UK alone that are never used in professional flying, precisely caused by lack of planning and research. At least being on this forum, take some advice and learn from others, and you won't find yourself having flushed upwards of £80k down the toilet for nothing.

[Wilton Shagpile]

OK guys, I am beginning to see why Mr. POTS is getting a bit hacked off! :cool:

Please POTS, don't abandon Pprune.....there is a lot if good information here....personally I didn't intend to cause any offence.

A lot of people have been through the hoops already and have been bitten or been messed around and want to help a fellow pilot...it is just that most people expect others to do a little leg work first.

Anyway, I think your outline plan is a good one....it is in the right order. However, did you know you can do your ME and IR before the CPL...it knocks some time off your CPL course (5 hours I think?) best check. You can also do your CPL on a twin....might be a good/bad idea but I think you can claim some credit in terms of hours. Plus you can do your ME training following by your IR taining...then do both tests....you test when you've got the maximum hours on the aeroplane which seems like a good idea to me. See Bristol Flying Centre...they do it this way.

Also, I think (note - think!) that you can order your ATPL groundschool notes right away without a PPL. I think you need a PPL to be enrolled on the course but not to begin the study if you're doing it distance learning....I would verify that though as I'm not 100% sure. If it is true though you can start your ATPL theory while you're doing your PPL....might be a bit cumbersome to manage but it is something I would investigate. I may be wrong about that though.

I know you have a family and don't want to travel, but it might be less disruptive for you to head to the US for a fixed period to hour build or do your CPL than to be constantly darting out of the house on a nice day to go flying??

Anyway, please PM me if you need any information...

[maxdrypower]

POTS as you are a cheshire lad , well stokey but you'll claim to be from cheshire. :}
If you are free this friday give me a pm . I am flying with a friend from barton in a lovely G1000 Cessna 172 . If you are willing to do a bit of cost sharing I will take you up for a spin for as long as you like . No pressure no crap just have a look at the aeroplane and I will introduce you to some of the instructors at LAC and RVR. Both Myself and friend are undergoing training for atpls at the moment . I will give you an insight into my findings opinions and decisions if you wish .There will also no doubt be a few commercial airline pilots at Barton who you can chin wag with .
Offers there matey if you want

[Bealzebub]

You asked a question and people took the time to give you an answer. Your question was seemingly born out of some grey comments you had received from a flying instructor you had spoken to.

The replies you have received have all contained elements of good advice and comment. Whether you perceive them as positive or negative is up to you. The thing with any advice is you can listen, digest and then decide what you want to pursue further. One persons experience is likely very different from another persons experience. On the other hand there are a lot of common basics concerning flying training, that you will find by taking the time to research them here on PPRuNe and elsewhere. Anybody and everybody will be happy to assist with any questions and offer advice and anecdotes from their own experience.

The reality is that it is a very expensive, frustrating, and difficult career for most people to aspire to. Those that will succeed are usually the people who can persevere and adapt. To that end there is a implicit acceptance that an individual will have done some basic research on which to hang their questions. You were dissappointed by the comments of a flying instructor. As already stated you probably had good cause, however the comments you received contained in themselves a large element of truth.

This "living the dream" and "King of the skies" stuff is all very nice, but if you simply want a pat on the back at this stage or some form of admiration that is not likely to be very forthcoming other than from a few people in a similar situation. On the other hand if you want good advice (or the best chance of getting it) then do a bit of research and let it show in the questions you are asking.

No one is trying to make you look stupid. You would be wise to listen to the cautionary tales and advice ( or negativity as you call it), as other peoples costly lessons might well save you a fortune in the future. As I have already said that flying instructor was a very poor salesman and if he had been working for me, he would have been out. However as you will (hopefully) quickly learn there are plenty of people out there who will be only too happy to part you from your cash in return for sharing your dream. As other people have told you, this is a big investment with absolutely no guarantees, and you should tread very carefully indeed. You are certainly going to make mistakes, the secret is ( and no it isn't a big secret ) to do your research, so that those mistakes are small and minimized.

[HappyFran]

Aren’t we all feeling a bit ashamed of ourselves for being so rough on a nice young man who has a wad of cash and just wants to be a pilot. :{:{

Can’t you remember back to watching Capprio in ‘Catch me if you can’ and thinking I fancy some of that, how hard can it be. :\

And now we have figured out that just because the charts are flat, the world isn’t. When you go up it’s a bit chilly and hard to breathe. And some bits in the engine go up and down while other bits round and round.

Suddenly were aviators not just mere mortals :}:}

Surely some kind FTO is out there, willing to lend a hand at spending some dosh without all that inconvenience of research and choosing stuff
:E:E:E

P.S. I guess he is lucky not have decided Integrated was best, unable to decide what colour his first shinny jet should be and have met the grammar police

Please come back we are nice really (might help with a bit more research first)
:):)

[JugglingSpence]

POTS, I think I'm in a similar position to you... except minus the savings!

One thing that I have found helps has been to break the process down into small steps/ stages. It will turn that massive mountain in front of you into a series of hills, not only making it seem more achievable but also you will get a few moments along the way to feel proud of yourself and you will feel like you are making progress.

I will be taking a few flying lessons this month to get a taster (I flew with the Air Cadets many moons ago but not since) just to make sure I still enjoy flying and that I've made the right decision. I'm also hoping to watch one of my stepdad's flying lessons to get a taster of some of the more advanced stuff.

One of the things that I will be considering is obtaining a CPL before I start studying the fATPL subjects. At this very early stage my plans are very flexible and NOTHING is set in stone but I would like to complete the CPL training and head off to Aus/ NZ to fly parachutists to build my hours whilst simutaniuosly studying for an fATPL.

This way I will be able to study whilst building my hours and experience, and also making the subject matter more relevant to me.

Does this sound like a good idea to the seasoned pros or should I go back to the drawing board? I will welcome any advice, tips or suggestions.

[maxdrypower]

No Spence , you cant hold a CPL without taking the atpl's and passing them , unless you only did the CPL exams , which is not really adviseable unless you want to be a career instructor and dont feel you will ever do an IR

[JugglingSpence]

Thanks Max. I'll go back to the drawing board then. :ugh: It's no biggie really as it's going to be a long time before I get to that stage.

I just liked the idea of flying during the day and studying on the beach at night rather than doing it in sunny Croydon!

[maxdrypower]

Get your PPL enrol on a DL atpl GS course then goto your beach , hour build in the day study at night , if that suits ya . But dont be under any illusion as to just how much studying you will have to be doing .

[HappyFran]

So back to being nice and constructive :):)

I found an excellent place to start was Gapan as they give an unbiased an very informative introduction to a career as a pilot

http://www.gapan.org/careers/pilotadvice.htm (http://www.gapan.org/careers/pilotadvice.htm)

You must get a medical… no medical..no career :uhoh::uhoh:

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49 (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49)

your timing is good to visit the Flyer exhibition…many earlier posts have recommended it

http://www.flyer.co.uk/exhibitions/ (http://www.flyer.co.uk/exhibitions/)

Prune is a great research tool. Start with;

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649)

Good Luck 'Princeof theskies'
and come back soon
Many people are more than happy to help once you have the basics
:):)

[Shiver me timbers!]

Referring back to what POTS said about the useless PPRuNe search function, i've been using my own which can be accessed here:

www.yesmobiles.co.uk/non-site/pprune/ (http://www.yesmobiles.co.uk/non-site/pprune/)

Feel free to bookmark/use it if you want.

[bajadj]

Did an instructor really suggest to pass ALL PPL exams before even having a trial lesson???

this is not only stupid as the trial lesson in my view is where it all starts, it's also stupid in the business sense for his school!!

Have a trial lesson, get a class 2 (or class one if you are serious about commercial), pass your air law, go solo, pass the rest whilst completing PPL.

That would be my logical pre commercial training route, and also the one I followed.

[Cutoff]

PRINCE:
Given some of the awfully negative responses on here and before you all retort with realistic, they ain't, they are just plain negative, I thought I would at least give you an idea of what I did.

I had a very nice career, electrical engineering and marketing, that unfortunately did not satisfy me, I had a go at a PPL in 1991, trying to get into the forces, but this did not pan out. So there I was laying in bed one night (september the 10th 2001 actually) when I decided that I had to give it a go, I had to try to become a pilot, if that did not work out for medical reasons then I was at least going to persue a PPL / IMC / Night and IR.

So the next day I booked my class one medical, as someone else said, no medical no job, so of all the advice so far given I would encourage you to get or at least try for a class one, this will at least give the green light to go for it or drive you down the path of recreational flying if that is your thing.

I at this stage had no idea what I needed to do to get an fATPL. So whilst waiting for the medical I researched it a bit (not to the levels that some people on here would have you believe) and found that I needed PPL, Multi, ATPL Writtens, CPL, IR and MCC, and this is how I tackled it, in that list in that order. I was at the time too old for CTC or the like and I had to remain in employment whilst doing the flying / studying so it was modular for me.

Before I had the medical I decided that if I only got a class 2 I would at least go for some recreational flying, so a PPL was the first step and something I could get in motion before I had the medical answer. So I sold my motorbike and persued a PPL, this was done at the weekends at a very local to me flying club on a small grass airfield. I would just add here that I already had 30 odd hours so I had the PPL completed in a few months. It takes a long time to complete if you are part time, weekends, as you need to get instructors, aircraft and of course the weather to complete the course. During this I, of course, got the medical answer, a class one was duly issued so I had the green light to go for the fATPL (and an fATPL is what you are aiming for at this stage, getting a commercial job is a whole other ball game, but you cannot get a job without the licence!!)

Now I had the green light I needed to do some more research, next on my list was the ATPL writtens, remember I am modular, so there was only one answer as far as I could see and that was Bristol GS. I booked the course and allocated 18 months to get them done, I had a full time job on the go too, I could have gone faster I suppose, but there was no need, there weren't any jobs at this stage anyway, also I still needed to build enough hours to start the CPL. I started the study but to keep my hand in I also did an IMC rating, no need to but it gave me the confidence to do some decent cross countries, and someone I met, a good friend now, put me in touch with a cheap group on an aircraft that allowed me to do these cross countries at a reasonable cost. I did the IMC at the same school as the PPL by the way. So I was happily working, doing an IMC, hour building and studying for the ATPLs.

Just to add to the challenge I also did a multi rating just prior to me sitting the first set of ATPLs. I did this at another school, part time (weekends and evenings)...so far this has taken me the best part of two years. Just to take some time off, I spent the rest of this year, doing cross countries and just plenty of flying, I also got my CPL cross country qualifier in during this period, I sat the first ATPLs in July and planned to start the next lot of studying in Jan (no rush as I said earlier). Also I as I knew that I would start the CPL the next year and the nights were getting longer I did the night rating, again at the same school as the Multi rating.

So Jan came and I got my head down again for the second lot of ATPL study, this took another 6 months and I sat them in July, all passed, I cannot recommend Bristol highy enough they were great.

Now I had the hours, the exams done and the qualifying cross country under my belt I could start the CPL flying, again prior to this I researched it and found a school close to where I worked at the time that could fit me in the evenings and weekends (this was my criteria for the choice, not their name or any other fancy named add ons that they could offer, I needed simply a Multi CPL / IR and that is what I went for) So this is school number three.

I started the CPL in the autumn of 2004, remember I booked the medical in Autumn 2001, so three years on at this stage, and did as much as I could through the autumn / winter all at weekends, this is where the weather hit hard and many a weekend was a write off, very frustrating. In fact by Decemeber I felt that progress was too slow, nothing to do with the school, just the Great Brtish weather, so in Jan 2005 I also started the IR. I could do some of this, to start with, in their sim, so this worked well and I did a lot of this in the evenings after work, so I felt progress was being made again. The weather improved in the new year, enough for me to get the CPL done by April (I started it in Sept so it took sometime), this left the IR as far as the flying was concerned and as this was less weather dependent I had this done by June 05, I would say that doing the two at the sametime was tough, but it meant that I was as current as poss on handling an aircraft, instrument scan and swapping types, between singles, complex and twins, not a bad thing really. Just to highlight the weather impact and this above all things in my opinion can slow you down, I got weathered off twice for my IR test, and this was in May / June, so allow some contingency for the weather!!

So what now, well I needed to the MCC, so where could I get one done quickly (I was excited now as I had all the other boxes ticked) and cheaply, there is no need to spend big on an MCC, all employers want is a certificate. So this lead me to school 4 (5 if you count the groundschool!!). This took another two weeks and was one of the few times where I had to take some time off work unpaid, up til this point I had managed to do the lot using weekends, evenings and paid holidays.

This is where the trouble starts in my opinion, you have all the boxes ticked, not much money, not many hours, I had 380 at this point so more than some others have and there you are applying for jobs. A complete anti-climax!!! I make no bones about this point cos it is an anti-climax, I had planned my life, in stages, for the last 4 years to get to this point, my path was clear, but now I was on my own with not a lot to offer to be honest, well in terms of flying experience, to further complicate the issue I was by now 35!!! But I was still in a good job which allowed me to fly enough to keep things current, I also had an IR to use and this allowed me to do some great long distance flying, all good stuff for the CV.

I applied to all the places that everyone else does, I sent letters where the weren't specific jobs on offer, but I did nothing out of the ordinary. By chance I noticed the BA Citiexpress online application go live almost as it was posted, so I sat down for a couple of hours, filled it in and posted it - I was applicant number 65 I think, so I was quick off the mark, I was asked for an interview / sim ride etc and entered their hold pool. Six months later I got the call, March 2006 5 1/2 years after I started the process.

Now all the stages up to getting the licence are through hard work, effort as well as some skill, in my limited experience getting the job was in no small part due to luck, sure I had to pass the sim ride / interview, but getting the chance of an interview etc was luck. There are many people that I fly with have the same feeling, there is a strong element of luck in finally landing that job, of course that are some that simply did everything that they could to be in recruiters faces, lived on the breadline for years instructing etc and they got their rewards, but there are many who do not get their rewards.

In summary what is it I am trying to say, well I think that the best way to tackle this is in chunks, plan each stage as it comes (of course integrated takes some of this planning away from you and if you are young then this might be the best option, esp as you have the cash) think about how you want to get the courses done, what time you can spare for each element, how are you going to get your hours, and you can never have too many of these, they are still valid once you are employed and will put you further up seniority lists if you join with a lot of others at the sametime, they could also shorten your time to command. I am proof that the school that you did the flying / study at is not the be all and end all, nor are first time passes, although performance is the one subject to concentrate on as employers do look at this one. If you want to start planning anything at all, I would start planning on how can you shorten your odds, how can I get my slice of luck, how can I land that job, I do not have the answers here, what I have tried to do is show you that it is possible, and it is possible without all the up front intensive planning that some on here say that you need to do. Just get on with it, cos until you have the licence you have no chance, if it does not happen you have at least tried and it would be sad to get to 65 full of regret eh??

I have been flying commercially now for 2 years, I should have done it much sooner in life, I love the job, it was worth the effort (but I have never been so skint as I am now by the way), BUT........ it beats working for a living!!!

[slackjack]

I think it very considerate of the folks on here to be so helpful to prince and is a testament to Pprune for the helpfulness and friendliness which I’m of course all in favour of, however...

The few that suggested he required a reality check, I’m afraid I totally agree with! If you have circa 50 big ones to spend on anything (which you've presumably saved long and hard for), you need to know exactly what you're doing with it! That kind of cash would buy you 2/3 properties in somewhere like India!

The point also needs to be bought to the table that you NEED to be passionate or at least seriously interested in aviation/flying to go the distance (and expense) of obtaining your fATPL. This for me means naturally reading everything from Pilot magazine to AAIB report, but I do this more for pleasure than a necessity. I've been lurking on here for 2+ years just for pleasure reading everything, but particular regards to the Wannabee section. From this alone I feel I’ve learnt a great deal. I’ve only had one flying lesson but like many intend to progress this, but I sooo wouldn’t unless I knew what I was doing or getting into. I would feel to naïve and exposed. Hence I am leisurely swatting now (which I love!) while saving etc… (For the 2/3 or so years until I am in a position like yourself to embark).

I hate to say it prince but something doesn't add up or sound right with your comments. If you've been saving so much (presumably for a while), would you not naturally be reading any info on financial/training shortcuts, pros/cons etc etc?? It seems every flying magazine, every month in WH Smith has a section on flight training?

I would really ask yourself if you feel you’re into this enough to part with your huge sum of cash.

I really do think in this game, the ones completely switched on are the ones that get their and survive. :ok:

Just my thoughts and hope you or anybody else doesn’t take offence.

Jack

[bajadj]

great post Cutoff. Excellent read.

[Kerosine]

I fear your time may have been wasted, Prince may have put words into action and gone :rolleyes:.

Well we'll see, it would be a shame after he's gone through the standard PPRuNe 'search before post' flaming for him to miss out on those great posts (particularly Cutoff and Slackjack).

Come back Prince, we're sorry! :{

[lazy george]

Prince may come back just under a different name....say that of a symbol

Sorry couldn't resist:}

[lastdon]

Hi Cutoff,

Really worth to read your post. Infact i think as far as PRINCE is concerned, i guess he is simply lucky enough to have all the boaders provide with their share of experiences which will surely help.

Good Luck to you all and PRINCE. :ok:

Peace.

BTW im just about to get started with my medicals......STEP 1 :}

[Bealzebub]

Don't worry. He was here an hour ago and same yesterday evening. In any event there are other people in a similar position to take up the debate.

[JB007]

Whether he comes back to PPRuNe or not, we all told it how it was...end of! He asked the question, we told him what to do...

POTS was frighteningly misinformed or just really didn't do what we all had to do...or should do if you we're about to spend £45,000 (and probably the rest now...)

If he want's to throw his toy's out the pram because we all said "Whooaa, you need to put some more work in there..." so be it...how's POTS going to react when he's told you need 5 more hours to consolidate during his IR...or fails all phase 1...I know many, myself included, who sweated blood to get where I am, and why people think they can become a pilot because "it sounds a good job" is unreal...

POTS said it was the "Start of his Dream" I beg to differ, if it was, he would not be asking the questions he was...

Harsh, I know...ready...aim...fire...:ok:

[princeoftheskies]

Well JB007 you seem to know everything, so why not barr everybody else on this forum and just talk to yourself. It certainly is my dream and will get there no matter what you or anybody else says. Im not throwing my toys out of the pram at all. I just cant see the point in moaning about people asking the question you have heard a thousand times. ITS AN AVIATION FORUM, OF COURSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ASK THEM QUESTIONS!!!! Go and search for teh answers to the questions i initially asked and you will see it isnt as clear and easy to find.
Also, i was told of this forum by somebody, and was told to ask questions as you are all a friendly bunch. How wrong was that!!!

I have had 6 PM's now saying "ignore JB007 and other people on here who are so bitter and twisted that they cant be positive about stuff"

Oh and where did i say "i want to be a pilot because i think its a good job"???? , you may fail your next medical as you obviously cant see properly!

So , enjoy what you do, keep up the negative attitude because quite frankly i couldnt give a damn what you or anybody else thinks.

Bye

[Bravo73]

It certainly is my dream and will get there no matter what you or anybody else says.


Mwahahaha. Another lamb to the slaughter. :E

[Put1992]

Well JB007 you seem to know everything, so why not barr everybody else on this forum and just talk to yourself. It certainly is my dream and will get there no matter what you or anybody else says.No, prince, I really do think you should listen to what JB is saying. Heck, im just over half your age and have now realised that however negative people sound on PPruNe it's alot of the time the truth (regardless of whether it's what you want to hear).

What harm can come out of knowing what your about to spend alot of money on? There have been several hypothetical situations on this thread now, relating to purchasing goods of high prices, how about you take some into account?

Do the research, then you know what your getting yourself into, I think that's the primary point here. (note, nobody has actually said you cannot acheive your dream, just that your taking a potentially insecure approach to it)

Just my opinion (however worthless it may seem)

Good luck Prince :)

Put

[slackjack]

Oh Prince prince prince...

You need to look at the so-called "negativity" more constructively! Kind of a contradiction of yourself eh!??

The folk on here are not saying what they are for the sake of being mean!? If they wanted to do that they would apply for the Apprentice or Big Bro!

The best thing you can do here is look at the big picture of what everyone has said and advised you. Don't get so hacked off. I'd say the message you could take away with you right now from this thread is YES of course your dream is achievable, but it’s down to you and you need to wise up (as well as toughen up!). :ok:

[Forkandles]

Put1992, you'll have really upset him now! Not only have you come on here and spoken sense, but your spelling and punctuation is much better than his as well! All this, from someone half his age! :ok:

Look and learn POTS old fruit!

[Kerosine]

Fight, fight, fight! :}

Sorry guys but this is all a bit ridiculous, so I thought I would throw into the mix.

Members on PPRuNE are split into groups, majority of which being very helpful, some being 'tell it like it is/hard but fair', and some that like to 'have a go'.

I'd say that's a fair cross section of society, and if POTS refuses to enter a forum and accept that, then what can we do???

[Bealzebub]

I have read some good advice and some very kind offers being given in this thread. Why this chap chooses to ignore them and simply focus on his perception of "negativity" I cannot imagine. There are people who are in a similar situation to himself, others who have achieved some of what he seeks and those at the very top end of their careers. As he made some observations and asked the questions, you would think that he could self discriminate and choose what advice he wants to take on board.

Research and investigation is a vital tool unless you are happy to be parted from your cash or unless you are extraordinarily lucky. Most of the people I have seen who do very well in this industry have an intrinsic ability to sort out the wheat from the chaff, and to take onboard criticism and comment from various sources without having a public tantrum.

Frankly I don't care how many people "PM" you to complain about who is bitter and twisted. I don't care about your dream and I don't care who is friendly. This is a difficult and expensive career choice. It is one that is full of pitfalls and expensive penalities. It has a very high attrition rate. It requires serious candidates to display a high level of determination, common sense, application, ability and maturity. If you don't believe me just spend a bit more time looking through the threads and you will see what I mean.

People do succeed, and those that do well normally have most of the attributes I have already mentioned. If you are looking for a mutual support group, or people who will blow smoke up your backside then contact the "PM" ers. If you want serious advice then discriminate the answers to your questions. There is good advice available. If you want to leave because the responses are not pink and fluffy enough then go.

[Put1992]

Members on PPRuNE are split into groups, majority of which being very helpful, some being 'tell it like it is/hard but fair', and some that like to 'have a go'.
True, and the 'Have a go' members can easily Prune (the fruit kind) you into one of them :E

[JB007]

POTS - Your back!! I'm actually beginning to think you're alot younger than 30!?!

Never claimed to know everything POTS me old, I just know alot more than you because i've been there/done it! Just like hundreds of others on this forum who have succeeded because of hard work and living on digestive biscuits and are now line pilots for awesome UK airlines and loving what they do...far from bitter and twisted POTS! But I will make a note to smile about that when i'm getting paid to be on the beach in Mexico this weekend!!!

This is a fine line between good debate and doing what PPRuNe sometimes has the habit of descending into but...you asked the questions mate, we told you! It was harshly written because, as the post is called, it was Day One of your training and you are about to spend an horrific amount of money...and quite honestly, you ain't got a clue, and you still don't get it!!!

Well, good luck to you, I hope you do succeed because it's the best job in the world but a personal observation; your attitude doesn't really seem to be that of a Professional Pilot, you've snapped and been aggressive at most of the replies you've received but hey, i've never met you...sadly, I think you're in for a big shock and you'll have spent a fortune before you do get wise to it!

[princeoftheskies]

JB007, i am 30 actually. Suprised you didnt know that!

Not coming on here again anyway , got the info i needed on a different forum so got my first lesson booked for 2moro. So me and my attitude will be going somewhere else.

Bye

[Kerosine]

Prince, good luck with everything, no-one wants you to fail.

[Bealzebub]

You have said that 3 times now ! Good luck and Good bye.

[Kerosine]

I think this is a thread to be closed, need anything else be said? :rolleyes:

[slackjack]

Agreed Kerosine, a pretty unfortunate thread.

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