Logging hours as Safety Pilot [Archive]

wobble2plank

1st Apr 2008, 20:00

You are the 'qualified' crew member and therefore you log the hours as Co-Pilot. The trainee is NOT qualified to act in the full role until signed off by a training captain. Therefore, in the event of an emergency, he will be ejected and you will be inserted into the RHS to conduct the duties for which you are carried.

Have fun

p.s. You should also get any sector pay attributable to the training sectors. Always check ;)

W2P

Jet Man

1st Apr 2008, 20:15

From my understanding you cannot log the time as safety F/O on B737. You are not part of the required crew for the aircraft. You are required only because of the training system. The trainee is qualified to sit in the RHS under the supervision of a training captain.

Clandestino

2nd Apr 2008, 08:42

May I log these flights as Safety Pilot as Copilot time in my logbook (JAR)?

You're not allowed to, but chances are, even if you do log them, no one will ever cross-check yours and your colleagues-in-training logbooks and you will never get caught.

TolTol

2nd Apr 2008, 09:08

I log them as copilot.

250byThePark

2nd Apr 2008, 09:59

Interestingly enough, LASORS 2008 (UK CAA) "Guide to logbook annotation" (Section A/Appendix B) states the following:

OPERATING CAPACITY
Pilot on flight deck but not as P1, P2, SPO or FE:
(i) Acting as ‘required’ Flight Navigator (under the Air Navigation Order);
(ii) Pilot supervising Co-pilot activities;
(iii) No duties assigned (Supernumerary);

DESIGNATION IN LOG BOOK
(ii) P2

RECORDING OF ITEM
Enter as for case C.

CASE C --> Co-pilot, P2, Enter time in ‘Second pilot’ or in ‘Co-pilot (P2)’ column.

Centaurus

2nd Apr 2008, 10:35

Is it really true that a pilot can legally log instrument flying time while eating his lunch and chatting up the hostie on the flight deck and watching the automatic pilot do it's thing?

In the old days pilots were only permitted to log instrument flying time if they actually flew the aircraft in IMC as against "monitoring" an autopilot. There would seem to be no point in logging hours watching an autopilot as there is no manipulative skills required for that task. It's rather like congratulating the pilot on his superb skill on the ILS and landing when it was an autoland

Denti

2nd Apr 2008, 17:26

That is still true in many parts of the worlds. However JAR just requires you to log operational condition and one of them is operating under IFR rules, you still can log IMC time in an additional or the remarks column if you like, it is just not required.

barit1

2nd Apr 2008, 19:11

The USN had the NH-1 instrument trainer during the big one. It had conventional LHS/RHS plus a limited panel and flight controls for a student in the curtained cabin behind the LHS. Also an instructor's seat alongside the student.

I have heard (from the fellow who invented this layout) that when it was first proposed to the Army about 1938, they laughed him out of the place.

But the Navy loved it, because four aviators (two in front, two in back) could log time in the same single-engine airplane! :ok:

Agaricus bisporus

2nd Apr 2008, 20:32

Wow! Wot a minefield, but steady those ambitious enough to try logging supernumerary as P2. I don't believe it!

1) Simple logic. The TRE is P1 and so the stude is P2. No question about that. There cannot be two P2s. So NO, you can't log it as P2 as well.

2) Simple logic. If you were not there you cannot log it either.

3) Simple logic. If FO were under any other test (LPC) and you happened to be on jumpseat you couldn't log that either.

4) OPERATING CAPACITY
Pilot on flight deck but not as P1, P2, SPO or FE:
(i) Acting as ‘required’ Flight Navigator (under the Air Navigation Order);
(ii) Pilot supervising Co-pilot activities;
(iii) No duties assigned (Supernumerary)

You , as safety pilot, are not "supervising" Co-pilot activities. You are acting as a supernumerary observer to the crew as a whole. I believe the above quote is to cover a trainer in the jumpseat supervising an FO in his capacity as a trg capt (perhaps with a cruise capt in LHS??). A supernumerary observer is not legally required as "crew" by the licencing authority so has no defined "legal" role, therefore cannot log it. (see JetMan's post)

5)You're not allowed to, but chances are, even if you do log them, no one will ever cross-check yours and your colleagues-in-training logbooks and you will never get caught.

...How Professional.

NOT!

Answer. NO

Clandestino

2nd Apr 2008, 22:18

Relax, Champignon. Next time I'll mark my post with :E to make my point clearer (for some).

No need to invoke logic; relevant for the logging of P2 hours is JAR-FCL (http://www.jaat.eu/publications/jars/607069.pdf) 1.080 (c). It says that copilot time can only be logged from the pilot's seat. Now pay attention kids: there are only two pilot's seats on any ole aeroplane currently engaged in commercial air transport in JAAland. Jumpseat is (surprise, surprise) not a pilot's seat.

What I wrote about 'no chance of being caught' is, sadly, only half-a-jest. The practice of logging co-pilot time from jumpseat is quite widespread in some parts of JAAland and ones who do not indulge in it, put themselves in disadvantage relative to their peers who do. Especially as some local CAAs have problems even catching people who outright falsify their loogbooks by logging flights that never took place. At least, for jumpseat ride there's journey log that matches your logbook.

You think I'm exagerating? Well, not everyone replying here was joking.

GlueBall

3rd Apr 2008, 09:40

Irrespective of how many hours you write in your log book, your true experience level will immediately become apparent when you sit in the seat and hand fly the airplane or the simulator. The instructor will know right away if your logged hours are commensurate with your performance.

ShotOver

3rd Apr 2008, 10:31

Sorry, but not so. There are many with few hours that hand fly great, and many with thousands upon thousands of hours in type that engage the autopilot at 400', and disengage it as low as possible. Sim checks encourage pilots to use all resources available to them, which includes the autopilot. Sims are usually so packed with emergencies anyway that there is no time to practice hand flying. RVSM requires autopilot engagement except under some contingencies. So, hand flying suffers if you're 'monitoring' or sitting in the jump-seat. It doesn't mean anything.

The truth is that unless someone is padding the logbook with LOTS of time, no one will know. Unfortunately, many do it. As cheating becomes the norm to get what you want, the 'bar' is raised. After awhile many feel compelled by that survival instinct to do the same. Using the logbook as a means of proving experience, and thus obtaining employment is a flawed as it gets.

Any better ideas on how to measure one's worth as an employable pilot?

Agaricus bisporus

3rd Apr 2008, 18:41

Any better ideas on how to measure one's worth as an employable pilot

Yes.

Ensure that you remain Professional to the core.

(ie, not dishonest and cheating in your log book for a start.)

If you're not, you're in the wrong job.

ShotOver

4th Apr 2008, 00:02

Ensure that you remain Professional to the core.

(ie, not dishonest and cheating in your log book for a start.)

If you're not, you're in the wrong job.

Ok. I agree, change everyone's morals and ethics and the problem is resolved. Good luck. People always have, and always will justify their actions. So, while it may be easy to say remain Professional, that is abstract, and unattainable. There will always be....ummm, many.

Your comment doesn't answer my statement that the number of hours someone chooses to say they have (even if it is true) doesn't equate to safety, competency, or professionalism.

Or are you saying that if someone has, oh, 'X' number of hours total time then they're experienced, safe, and professional? If so, then how many hours?

Oh, and if you're using the third person plural as 'you' then ok. If you're directing it toward me you're wasting your time. I already have an airline job that I have worked for many, many years to have BECAUSE I choose to not falsify my logbook. I have paid for that decision as my contemporaries have lied about their experience and are now way ahead of me. However, ethics aren't exactly contagious.

GlueBall

4th Apr 2008, 16:01

ShotOver

5th Apr 2008, 00:58

Besides being the obvious master of automation, all sim checks every six months include engine-out hand flown pattern circuit, including hand flown flight director or raw data LOC/ILS intercept and approach and go-around. And if you can't accurately hand fly the maneuvers then you bust your check! Hand flying currency and accuracy is an integral part of the job, but it doesn't mean that you would hand fly the airplane in busy airspace while in a holding pattern in IMC waiting for your slot time to land at LHR. :ooh:

So, are you saying that the 'checking' that is done every 6 months allows one to maintain 'hand-flying' skills? It doesn't. So, don't even try to say that the hand flying done in a sim check every 6 months allows one to handfly the aircraft well. It doesn't. If someone handflies well it's because they personally choose to not engage the auto-pilot until level-off perhaps, and to disengage and handfly the approach as much as possible.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't change my comment that a pilot with 20,000 tt that chooses to engage the autopilot at 400' after takeoff, and disengage at the last possible moment before landing, will have poor handflying skills.

Don't confuse being able to handfly an emergency procedure in the sim, to at least minimum standards, and getting a pass, with being able to handfly the aircraft well. Two different discussions.

Keep to topic. My origional comment was that handflying skills suffer, and total time is not an accurate representation of skill, experience, judgement, professionalism, etc.

Dani

5th Apr 2008, 07:15

I'm amused at times when I hear the word "safety pilots". You mean a young, sometimes even no rated pilot sitting in the right seat playing the role of a co-pilot or first officer on an aircraft where there is only one pilot needed.

OK, safety is a blury word, but for me a non rated pilot is not an increase in safety per se. To the contrary, sometimes instruction situations may distract the only pilot from its official duties.

The word safety pilot comes from pilots with less experience on the left seat as pilot in command, who have a very experienced rated pilot on their right side as a support. That's a safety pilot.

Well, sorry to interrupt, continue...

Dani

Sky Wave

5th Apr 2008, 16:13

Dani, I think you're confused.

This discussion is about safety pilots who are sitting on the jump seat when a new pilot is undergoing initial line training on a multi crew aircraft. The safety pilot will do the following:-

1) Supervise the new pilot to ensure that they do not miss anything, or do anything incorrectly.
2) Monitor the training captain, as the new pilot will be like a fish out of water and is unlikely to pick up or question any mistakes that the trainer could make.
3) Take care of the paperwork to reduce the workload of the new pilot.
I would say they are essential during the first few flights.
SW

Permafrost_ATPL

5th Apr 2008, 18:40

What most people do at my company is to log the hours as part of Total Time, but NOT as P2. Having two P2s does not make sense. I log my safety pilot hours at "Other". The CAA do not seem to object to this practice when validating the hours for issuing an ATPL.
P

SILENT_BADGER

5th Apr 2008, 20:57

Thanks for that answer permafrost. Logging it as 'Other' neatly avoids the whole multiple P2 ethical minefield.

But after all, at this stage its the TT I'm concerned about anyway to get the ATPL. I have my first duty as safety pilot in a couple of weeks, I'll see what the training captain reckons but your solution makes perfect sense.

DutchBird-757

5th Apr 2008, 21:14

In fact, that's the reply I've got from the CAA themselfs as well. Log all your supernumery flying in the Other 'column'. I've got another SNY trip coming up in two weeks time. Reminds me when I had a safety pilot on the jumpseat... :=

DutchBird-757

7th Apr 2008, 08:55

As a final note on how to log the (safety pilot) hours. Here's the CAA document with all the magic stuff in it. It's called LASORS 2008. It's a good read for all your logbook and flight time recording questions. It's the official CAA document. If for some reason the link doesn't work or we're into 2009+ then go to the www.CAA.co.uk (http://www.CAA.co.uk) website and search for LASORS + the current year.

Here it is: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591

Open the large 74mb+ document (pdf) and scroll to Section A - Appendices to Section A - Appendix B - Recoding of Flight Time. Your awnser will be on page 78 in Column F.

Supernumerary goes in column Any Other Flying or Spare and annotate as SNY.

Hope this helps,

easymoney

7th Apr 2008, 13:16

From Lasors.....that's if indeed you have a UK License.

Section F (ii) Pilot supervising Co-Pilot Activities.

Column 4 tells you to log this as P2.

and

Column 5 tells you to enter as per Section C.

which is

Enter time as second pilot or Co-Pilot (P2) duties.

The most important thing is what does your company log this as. Probably as nothing in order to get the max out of you....ie 100 hours in 28 days and 900 in one year.

Now if you have an incident and you've logged hours as P2 while supervising the FO, and this brings you over the 100/28 limit.

Just something to think about.....as it may not be restricted by your companies rostering system. And you may find you are flying around illegal.

757_Driver

7th Apr 2008, 17:56

Lasors is clear.

When sitting on the jump seat as safety pilot it gets logged as P2.

You can debate it all you like, but lasors says log it as P2 and thats the official word. Anyone queries it then point them at that section.

Clandestino

9th Apr 2008, 20:36

Is LASORS relevant to a Spanish F/O? Or just UK?

Can anyone post a picture of a loogbook with column "others"? My, allegedly, JAR-compliant one has column 10 (Pilot function) divided in four sub-columns; PiC, co-pilot, dual and instructor. Seems I've been cheated :E

SHAGGS

10th Apr 2008, 01:33

Not to sure what you can do under the JAR system, but you "CAN'T" log any supernumerary flying under the Kiwi and Aussie regs. The Airline I fly for generally only has a safety pilot in the jump seat when a pilot in either operating seat has very little to on the line, ie initial line training, the other pilot will always be an experienced training captain. The trainees have always completed the sim and done a post sim excercise in the real aeroplane with a checkie prior to going onto line, hence the trainee logs the hours, and not the safety pilot.