One For The Self Employed Onshore Pilots

[ROTORVATION]

Most of us know that most PPL (h) instructors R22/R44/S300 earn between 35 - 40 quid an hour, and that has been pretty consistent for probably a good 10 years.

For pilot services would most of you agree that schools are charging out around 65 an hour to supply a pilot?

Scenario.. I took my wifes car to Citroen for it's 40,000 mile routine service two days ago, and nearly fell flat on my back with a 450 quid bill. I asked why the hell it was so steep, and got told that the charge per hour for a mechanic is 85 of my english pounds!!

Before I wrote this, I did a bit of digging and found that most dealers are charging 80 - 100 an hour for mechanics. My old man is a mechanic so I'm not knocking anyone here, but do any of you think that it's about time as an industry the rates went up a bit for pilot services, and for wages as a whole?

your comments please...

take it easy

[nodrama]

I bet the said auto mechanic doesn't actually get paid £80/ hr, that's just what the garage charges /hr for labour.

[Bravo73]

Exactly. The garage will also factor it's fixed-cost overheads into the hourly rate.

[diginagain]

Change garages. My BMW gets worked on by an independant, BMW-trained mechanic at £20/hour. Any warranty work he does is approved by the local main dealer, who puts a good deal of work his way.

[manfromuncle]

For PPL instruction, my school charges me out at £75. I get £44 per flight hour. No retainer. No benefits. Doesn't matter if you have 300 hours or 3,000 hours, you still get the same. The school also makes a profit on the aircraft presumably.

Yes, it's time for a change. But there will always be some 300 hour newbie who will work for less. Just like there will always be 1,000 hour piston instructors who will work for practically nothing to get turbine/twin time.

Don't get me started. The whole situation is depressing!

[Camp Freddie]

Don't get me started. The whole situation is depressing!

it was depressing 10 years ago, I did it for 3 years while trying to get a salaried job and then legged it as soon as I could.

I dont believe it is fixable in the short/medium term.

get an IR and get out is your best option I think

regards

CF

[helimutt]

My advice, all instructors stand together and state they want £50/hr. No haggling. If enough instructors do this at once then something might happen. It needs to be higher as the cost of getting the licence gets higher and higher each year.
My instructor back in 1994 was getting paid £45/hr!!!!!

Saying that, any good school, who cares about it's instructors, will pay them £50/hr. No reason not to. If they don't then maybe look for someone who does pay well. You want to work for less than what you think you're worth, then go ahead but moaning about low rates won't get you anywhere i'm afraid. Take action!!!

[manfromuncle]

Mmm.. easy to say, less easy to do. If the school you work for refuses to pay more, and your nearest other school is 70 miles away, are you going to move house and start all over again at another school? Then have a nightmare commute with the associated petrol costs? I doubt it.

"any good school, who cares about it's instructors" - Mmmm.. schools know that instructors are always around and, on the whole, people only do it to build hours before moving on, so why pay us more? If they paid us all £70, then would have to put their prices up, and hence the customers wouldn't come.

It's all down to economics. Fuel, regulation/admin, airfield etc costs have all risen over the last few years, and schools are forced to pay those costs, but they can get away with not paying instructors more because they know there will always be people looking for instructor jobs.

Maybe in ten years schools will be forced to pay us more, but by that time, we might not have a PPL flight training industry in the UK.

I'm all for solidarity and getting a decent wage, but as I said, it's depressing.

[HeliRoute]

Yeah. I took my Jag XKR in for 10k dealerhip serice and cost me £550, what did they do? you tell me. They always insist on including 'sundries' including screen wash even though you're topped up. They kindly gave mu a bottle of 1l oil (like i'd have to use it at that mileage) at the cost off £20. Switched the XK to a x-type 2.0 still cost me nearly as much. Answer? Pedal cycle. Unfortunately, the Jag service reception girls are so pretty, all you can do is hand over your card and smile!!

[KNIEVEL77]

Chaps,

Do instructors belong to a Union like us TV technicians?

Surely the Union can stipulate the rate or a rate rise?

I was shocked to find out that my instructor would only be on £40 per hour, you can't get a plumber for that around here!

As a trainee it wouldn't stop me going ahead with my PPL(H) if the instructor rate was higher, as a job I think it should command a higher rate.

Maybe the rate should go on the number of flying hours held by an instructor........I personally would pay more knowing my instructor had more experience!

Just my thoughts,

K77.

[Whirlygig]

Well you could join BALPA if you wanted but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them to fight your corner!

Just as a self-employed instructor feels constrained in working for a particular school due to location so also do many students. They similarly would look at the hourly rate of a local school compared with that of one 70 miels away and also factor in the petrol costs!

Cheers

Whirls

[helimutt]

Ok, how about an honest operator breaking down the cost of one hours R22 instruction in the UK? (£250/hr these days)???

ie A/C cost, Maintenance, Insurance, Hangarage, Fuel, Instructor pay.

Interested to see the bottom line. Small profit margins I would bet.??

[ROTORVATION]

I Would Agree With Helimutts First Post... Isn't It About Time As A 'group' That We Stood Together For A Change?

[Lplates]

Hi all

As an instructor myself I wonder if like me others would prefere a salary as opposed to being paid by the hour. Seems like a better way to be paid. I guess most employers think being paid by the hour encourages us to get the work and make us more pro-active. To be honest the fact that as it stands this could never be a serious career is the motivation to get the hours and move on!

Thoughts comments?

[manfromuncle]

More like £280 for an R22 these days. Once you factor in fuel surchages/landing fees/circiut fees etc.

Salaries are very rare for FI jobs.

Some companies even want you there 9-5 washing the hangar floor, cleaning helis, etc. - while only paying you when you fly! (you know who you are).

"As an instructor myself I wonder if like me others would prefere a salary as opposed to being paid by the hour Seems like a better way to be paid" - not for the school, no. Because when the weather is crap/heli is broken/student doesnt tun up etc, you are not costing the school money.

[Camp Freddie]

dont waste your money joining BALPA.

Forget about salaries it wont happen unless you make yourself essential to the school.

forget about banding together FI's are thinly spread working for different employers.

Many of this type of company demand excessive loyalty from you but will give non back, the only thing they understand is you voting with your feet.

the fact of the matter it is that being a FI is not a career, nor in my opinion is VFR charter on singles, they are jobs

you need to get into twins i.e 1) offshore 2)corporate 3)police 4)air ambulance 5)private owner

you can either live with the £45 flight pay or you cant, no point wasting your time worrying about it.

I couldnt, had mortgage/wife/kids/car payments etc so had to get into something else, depressing but true :(

regards

CF

[helimutt]

Have to agree CF. It's a shame, as I enjoyed instructing but could never have made it a career, especially after the way some of the schools treated their instructors.
So can we break down the £280/hr somehow? I don't now what avgas costs these days (or Jet A1 for that matter!!:oh:) But as a guess it must be about £1.25+ litre?
Surely, if the costs to the customer can be increased in line with fuel/ins/landing fees etc then surely an extra £10/hr could be factored in. Problem is, this year I think it'll be hard to run a school as the money/credit issues bite further.
The people who can afford to fly will always be able to pay whatever it costs I think.

My advice is for any instructor to approach their employer and ask for a better deal. Maybe a low basic salary with a reduced 'per hour' flying pay.
I don't think £50 is bad for an R22 instructor. I know a few people getting that now so no reason why everyone isn't getting the same or similar.

[TIMTS]

I worked as an instructor in the US some years ago, instructing people from PPL up to ATLP. My starting salary was 16USD per hour. When I left it was up to 19 an hour. Whats that....around 8-10£?

[TIMTS]

Thats true, but there were still months where I could hardly afford to eat....ahh...the memories.
And not being a US citizen, it took a while to get a turbine job after having to leave the country.
I just thought the difference was steep. All respect to instructors anywhere working for peanuts to get where they want to be.

[Gymble]

You could perhaps compare the pay rate with the driver of the car, not the dedicated professional mechanic that sweats to maintain it at a time and place of your choosing.

You are all the same.

Gymble.

[KNIEVEL77]

As a student and just out of sheer interest it would be very interesting to learn the breakdown of the £250 per hour rate........any thoughts?

[jonseagull]

I flew a 206 in 1992 and got £45 ($85) per hour. I believe for a single engine VFR pilot, the going rate is still very similar.

Am I right?

[Lplates]

I don't think the industry will change, it can't. Mainly because instructing is the entry level for most people so money and conditions will be crap! I know of at least more than one FI who didn't progress further and gave up after 18 months of instructing. So it seems FI's get fed up dispondant or just cant survive on guarenteed bugger all and leave, only to be replaced by a newly qualified FI who just can't belive he's getting paid to fly! And so it goes on. Even with some charter mixed in your still paid by the hour and quite often worse off for the effort. The trick is to go for the CFI positions I would guess!

I love the job just don't know how long I can stick it.:ugh:

[tony 1969]

I agree exactly with what Lplates said. I absolutely love the job, money is ok in the summer but this time of year ..AAAHHHHH
But its been a long time and a lot of effort to get this far, You gotta stick with it??
Its got to be better than going back to the day job.. surely..:hmm:

[Camp Freddie]

IMO instructing is not something you can keep doing in the long term very easily.

you give a lot of yourself instructing, always giving information and getting very little back, the students slowly suck the life out of you and after 1000 hours or so instructing it is very hard to be patient with them like you were at the start, as you see the same mistakes over and over and over.

as a part time thing with other flying on the go it is sustainable, but i think you do need to move on to other things.

regards

CF

[goose boy]

Operaters will always take advantage of the fact that if you are not happy with getting paid peanuts for your flying there will always be some other guy who will. And they will most probaly remind you of this fact more times than you can shake a stick at, lol. ( and you are supposed to feel priviledged for that ???)

you should see the amount of C.V's the company I work for get every week ???

The less they pay the more they make.

To be fair though if it was my company I would most probally take advantage of this fact to , lol

Dosent make it right but what can you do ????????

G.B

[Lightning_Boy]

With a name like TIMTS and that sort of hourly rate, then you must have been at the 'big un' in KTIX. I also instructed there and started on that sort of hourly rate. As time goes on and you get more hours, the money rises quickly. When I left I was earning $22 / hour. That was for flight AND ground school. I used to work an average of 100 hours flight and 50 hours of ground per month. $3300 / month (minus taxes) was more than enough to live on. It was hard work and very tiring (working 6 days a week) but as you said, your only there for a short time so most people work their a$$ off to get their hours up.
When I returned to the UK, I worked as an FI for a couple of months before doing my IR conversion. By the time I paid for a type rating, renewed my medical, cost of travelling (including travel to work only to find there's no flying for what ever reason) minus taxes....I barely broke even. :ugh:

Luckly it was only a very part time gig for me, but for some people, who work as FI's full time, depending on their income to pay bills etc, it must be a nightmare.

[biggles99]

There's nothing wrong with the 50 quid an hour rate, it's the lack of hours flown that is the issue.

A realistic full day's work would be 4 hours flown a day, the rest of the time being spent on "unpaid" ground school.

That's 200 quid a day, £1000 a week, 40k a year (allowing for hols and weather).

Being paid a grand a week to do a job you love flying someone else's kit at no financial risk isn't such a bad way to earn a living, is it?

So what the instructors should do is work at places that can provide 20 hours instructional flying a week.

There aren't many of these schools, so one thing you can do is sit around and moan about the lack of work and money. An alternative approach is to get up off your behind and bring some more students to the school at which you work.

Spend all that "spare" time selling your services - make friends with your students, get them to bring their mates along for a trial lesson or intro day.

Build your reputation up, and you'll see the money roll in.

Big Ls

[Impress to inflate]

Strike Strike Strike Strike Strike Strike Strike Strike Strike Strike

[Flying Pencil]

Ok guys.
Instructor/Commercial pilot, just under 3000 hrs, rated on 7 types from R22 to A109. Based on the south coast. Depressing but have a guess at what the salary is/should be.

FP.

[blithe]

All VFR I presume?

I think your salary is £26-£32k a year before tax etc

[copter65]

FP

With those ratings, and working in the more lucrative South, if you are earning less than 50K a year I would seriously question where you are going in the future.

In my opinion corporate work is FAR FAR better than all this "Rig Sh**" which seems to be everyones idea of "earning the big bucks".......

Eventually a Captain on £75K+, wow....... big deal. Knock off Gordons Slice and your left with about 4 grand a month. And for all that training, skill and determination....... IT'S PATHETIC.

What is it all about. It's OK to say you are doing a job you love, but, the love wears thin if the earnings are strained for the commitment required.

The salaries for instructing are crap because it's so difficult for operators to make money in the CAA over legislated and beaurocratic helicopter world, especially in training.

Whats embarrasing is that instructing seems to be a "stop gap" to better things....... This is also pathetic, because, Instructors should be at the top of the salary scale not the bottom, hence alot of crap instructors out their just "bideing time". TEACHING NOVICE, NERVOUS AND VIRGIN WANABEE PILOTS needs a hell of alot of skill. This skill should be remmunerated.

I cannot see the salaries increasing much in the forseeable future, so if flying is a true passion, and you stick it out, theres always the local pub to get a part time job in to make ends meets!!!!!

[Heliringer]

Flying pencil, You are rated on 7 types but are you flying them?
If you're flying the 109 you should be getting more cash. Which machine are you flying mostly?

This is just an Australian point of view, I know things are different over there

[helimutt]

Copter, you say corporate is better than north sea? You talking money or b*llox?
I work offshore as a co-pilot, not really a secret who I am anymore and my salary isn't that great but i'm at the bottom of the ladder.
£75k? Yes, prob about right for a first year Captain.
I'm home in my own bed every night. Nice mixture of early shifts and late shifts, overtime available sometimes if I want it but not too bothered, and working about 18-20 days a month, give or take.
Ok, it's all multi crew and not for everyone, but it beats driving 300miles a day to instruct for £150 (if the wx doesn't go pants/student doesnt turn up/aircraft goes tech/delete as appropriate)
I can be finished by 1pm and have the day free when on earlies. Can't complain really.

As for Flying Pencil, I believe he can only be on two a/c for the AOC (forgive me if i'm wrong), but I bet he's expected to be at work all week, rain or shine, unpaid if not flying, taxed at source, not paid a retainer (well maybe a small one) and on a crap hourly flying rate and exected to sweep the hangar and do office type sh*t. If he makes £30k a year i'd be very surprised.
Now it's also possible his company really knows how to look after it's staff! NOT!! They probably pay him 0.1hrs less than the datcon time too.
He won't have an IR or else he'd be sitting pretty well in a nice corporate role and certainly wouldn't be where he is right now.


It's all horses for courses and what someone refuses to do, will be done by someone who thinks they are on to a winner. Sad but true. This industry won't change.

[rotorspeed]

There really is no point in anyone winding themselves up here. In the EU we have an open market economy. Beyond the minimum wage it's all down to supply and demand. End of story!

[helimutt]

Rotorspeed, you're dead right. Nothng will change.:{

[Flingingwings]

Be careful there FP old buddy. You know your employers mantra.............
'You MUST be grateful to work here' :(
Pay and decent conditions are optional :eek:

You NEED that IR :ok:

[copter65]

Sounds like you have a nice carry on.......... good on ya.

Safe flying to them Rigs now and in the future.

C65

[noblades]

Tried asking before. Boss had me on every angle sadly.
Why not pay instructors a salary? A: because they'll find any excuse not to fly and every excuse to still get paid.
And the self employed free lance instructors? A: because thay are self employed contractors, they get paid for what services they perform not for the pleasure of their company. Which is better? Get £45/hour for 50-70 hours a month or £100/hour and get no flying?

Made sense and is basic economics. Students dont want to pay much when learning but want saleries to go through roof once they go on line as instructors themselves. How much would you FI rating cost if you had to pay an extra £40/50 hour along they way?

Flight schools dont seem to have the same financial clout behind them as Charter companies. And the best explaination was that Instruction is regarded as a vocation (which means you'd better not be motivated by money when choosing as a career or career starting point)

Helped me appreciate that I was only there for a short time to get my experience up and by being cheap, hopefully I could get more quicker and therefore move on faster. It seems to have worked in the past and most people who complain as a young instructor are normally 1st ones gone at prospect of better job. High time instructors are rare at the best of times and I dont think they do it solely for the money
Just my humble 2c. I apologise if it rubs up anyone the wrong way. NB

[Bravo73]

Yes, but instruction used to lead to other things. Such as??? :confused:


These days, it doesn't appear to unless you have turbine/twin/IR time.

Any job that requires 'turbine/twin/IR time' is going to require an element of previous experience. If you're smart/lucky though, you'll find a flying school to work at which is also an AOC operator with singles and twins. There are plenty around.

However, I wouldn't expect everything for free. You might still have to pay for your additional ratings although certain companies might be willing to do you a deal.

[windowseatplease]

I really can't see the big deal UK employers make about turbine time. If you a fly a heavy R22/R44 and know how to fly within limits, it's no big deal. A turbine start is 30 seconds out of your life, just follow the checklist. No drama.

As far as the ridiculous twin requirements employers are asking for, again, they are way too high. 50 hours is more than enough to get comfortable in a twin.

Being a good instructor is just as much hard work as being a police/EMS/Charter pilot, despite all the requirements employers ask for. Most 'high-time' instructors could easily do these type of jobs, given the chance.

[Bravo73]

I really can't see the big deal UK employers make about turbine time. If you a fly a heavy R22/R44 and know how to fly within limits, it's no big deal. A turbine start is 30 seconds out of your life, just follow the checklist. No drama.

As far as the ridiculous twin requirements employers are asking for, again, they are way too high. 50 hours is more than enough to get comfortable in a twin.

Being a good instructor is just as much hard work as being a police/EMS/Charter pilot, despite all the requirements employers ask for. Most 'high-time' instructors could easily do these type of jobs, given the chance.


:eek:

You are wrong on at least 3 counts there.



Edited to add: On reflection, you wouldn't happen to know manfromuncle, would you, windowseatplease? :suspect:

[Flingingwings]

Unusual I concede but I'm with you B73.

All depends on what you consider a 'high time' instructor? With 000's of instructional hours you may well be a very good instructor, that doesn't mean it will be a straight forward transition to any other role though.

I've FI'd in a previous role, and my current role is significantly more demanding IMHO.

Market forces as already mentioned will continue, at present, to restrict both the pay/conditions and future progression of FI's. It's not right but thats how it is, and sadly many FI's regardless of ability or desire will never get that elusive dream job.

The introductory end of this industry has been poorly managed and abused for quite a while and until the general attitude changes I don't see things getting much better :(

[Bravo73]

Unusual I concede but I'm with you B73. :eek:
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[manfromuncle]

If you just get the engine running, sit there and let the student wobble all over the place and don't really teach him anything, then being an FI is dead easy.

If you actually want to prepare the aircraft correctly (fuel, oil, preflight), do the paperwork, brief him properly on the board, TEACH him the maneuver (as per the syllabus), debrief him thoroughly, do the paperwork, and prepare for the next student, all in a two hour slot (usually without a lunch break), AND earn a living, then being an instructor is a bloody hard job.

Anyone who says otherwise has obviously never been an instructor.

[Whirlygig]

I really can't see the big deal UK employers make about turbine time. If you a fly a heavy R22/R44 and know how to fly within limits, it's no big deal. A turbine start is 30 seconds out of your life, just follow the checklist. No drama.
Not quite sure how many hours of each you have mind with that statement but I have about 140 hours piston time and 10 hours Jet Ranger. I found the difference between the two vast; not just start up but flying technique, autorotations, instruments etc. A fully laden S300 is still lighter than a B206 with the latter feeling like sitting in a block of flats in comparison!!!

And I don't think anybody is denying that being a conscientious instructor is hard work. Any job which involves an interface with the public is tiring (ask any teacher!).

Cheers

Whirls