Is Cabair Sueing Diamond?

[Adios]

I heard Cabair are sueing Diamond over high unserviceability on the DA-42 Twinstar diesel engines. Does anyone know the truth on this?

[raceeend]

I dont know if it's true, but I can imagine that they are going to because the Service at Diamond is :mad: up beyond all ********

I own a share in a Diamond and you wouldn't believe how many problems we had with several Diamond's on our airfield!

There is something wrong with the 1.7 ltr Thiellert engines so that they have to be replaced it they find a certain flaw during service.

Problem is that if the engine has to be changed for a new 1.7 ltr engine you find out that Thiellert isn't making the 1.7 ltr engine anymore, only the 2.0 ltr and that's an engine where all those aircraft aren't certified for. So they have to be retrofitted for the 2.0 ltr Engine.

And of course this cost's money and the engine's aren't available!

We had one aircraft waiting in the hangar for 3 months before it could be retrofitted, another one is still in the hangar waiting for the new engine!

So, to all of you that have to make a living by flying Diamond's in a flying school, GOOD LUCK!!!!

Raceeend

[Nichibei Aviation]

The Thielert engines are indeed not very reliable.

Many schools bought it in a bid to reduce operating costs but often costs were found to be higher than operating a piston engine twin because the plane was more often in the hangar than in the air.

At the overhaul, they need to remove the engine and put a "new engine".

I can't tell for sure and many customers surely don't know whether these are really factory new engines or just reassembled engines, because Thielert does it all.

[B2N2]

I can't tell for sure and many customers surely don't know whether these are really factory new engines or just reassembled engines, because Thielert does it all.

TBR= Time Between Replacement

AFAIK Thielert engines are never overhauled or rebuild, factory new replacement engines are supplied.


So, to all of you that have to make a living by flying Diamond's in a flying school, GOOD LUCK!!!!

Thank you, we're doing just fine.....:ok:

[Nichibei Aviation]

factory new replacement engines are supplied.


You don't have to send the old engines back?

[jez d]

Perhaps you're confusing Cabair with Millen Aviation?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=310819

[B2N2]

You don't have to send the old engines back?

Yes you do, but they are not rebuild.
They are checked by Thielert for unusual wear and tear, then recycled for the aluminum.
Millen aviation is still advertising with the DA-40 on their website, still offering for hire and instruction.

[Nichibei Aviation]

Yes you do, but they are not rebuild.
They are checked by Thielert for unusual wear and tear, then recycled for the aluminum.


There you go ;-)
They are probably recycled and that's the big problem.
When you're getting the retrofit or a "replacement" you think that you're getting an all new engine made of all new parts. Well, you're not, and that's how Thielert is making money and that also explains the high levels of unreliability.

That's why the replacement engine is 6000 euro cheaper, and I don't believe that half a cubic meter of aluminium is worth 6000€ + the transport costs of the engine... that's also probably why a reputable school like Cabair is willing to sue...

http://www.centurion-engines.com/

[madlandrover]

That's why the replacement engine is 6000 euro cheaper

I don't know every in & out, but from a little bit of research I did when considering engine change options for my own light aircraft: a lot of the initial cost goes into the new fuel system and engine controls, rather than just the engine itself.

[Nichibei Aviation]

Replace avgas engine with CENTURION 2.0 in Cessna 172 Ready-to-fly kerosene piston engine CENTURION 2.0 completely pre-assembled "firewall forward"-unit including 950 parts:40,470 EUR*
» 14 V FADEC System » Engine periphery: gearbox, propeller, prop governor, turbo charger, coolant system, engine mounts, single lever control, vacuum pump, alternator, belt, starter and wiring harness. » engine and aircraft instruments »certification »Long range kit
for Cessna K, L, M, N 425 EUR

CENTURION 2.0» Kerosene piston engine CENTURION 2.0 » 14 V FADEC system and wiring harness » gearbox, turbo charger, prop governor, vacuum pump, alternator, belt, starter » certification 30,085 EUR http://web.thielert.com/typo3/fileadmin/centurion/images/spacer.gif


New CENTURION 2.0 after 2,400 hr operating time / TBR » Kerosene piston engine CENTURION 2.0 without instruments » 14 V FADEC system and wiring harness » gearbox, turbo charger, prop governor, vacuum pump, alternator, belt, starter » certification 24,445 EUR http://web.thielert.com/typo3/fileadmin/centurion/images/spacer.gif


Are the "intruments" (whatever that may be) worth 6000€?
Anyone have any info on what these instruments are?

Why would a manufacturer want its engines (weighing 150kg a piece) back at every replacement? Are the engines sent back to Diamond USA or shipped to Vienna?

Anyone has info about the reliability of the 2.0 engines?

[B2N2]

There you go ;-)
They are probably recycled and that's the big problem.

No Nichibei, recycled as in engine block is molten down.
The engines are not rebuild.
Every engine is factory new, zero hrs apart from the run-in time and ECU calibration.

[moggiee]

Maintenance standards are VERY important with the Thielert engines - have them looked after by people who know what they are doing (e.g Bristol Flying Centre or Aviation Maintenance at BOH) and they are fine.

If they are "looked after" by people who don't know what they are doing then you have trouble.

There are some badly abused Thielert powered PA 28s that give nothing but trouble to their new keepers - just don't ask me who used to run them!

There are supply problems with 1.7l engines in general (i.e. you can't get them) and 2.0l engines for some types. These are actually as much problems with the Diamond specific parts as with the Thielert engines (in fact more so).

People forget that there is a certain degree of compensation to be had from the fact that fuel costs are 75% lower than AVGAS powered aeroplanes.

[moggiee]

Are the "instruments" (whatever that may be) worth 6000€?
Anyone have any info on what these instruments are?

Yes - they are completely different due to the nature of the engine and its associated ECUs and wiring. They are combined electronic gauges covering all the engine functions (RPM, % power, volts, amps, temp, oil pressure etc). There is also a new throttle quadrant replacing the badly made 3 lever Piper job with a nice custom made (rather well engineered) single lever setup.

It's too early to give definitive data on 2.0l reliability, but first indications are promising.

[Nichibei Aviation]

Thanks, very helpful :ok:


No Nichibei, recycled as in engine block is molten down.
The engines are not rebuild.



Where does that happen, in their factory?
As we may imagine that may imply quite some logistic costs to have them shipped all the way to Germany...

[chuks]

The basic engine is made for the Mercedes-Benz A-series automobile, I believe. It gets a gearbox to drop the revs to a level suitable for a propeller and a lot of other accessories to make it an aircraft engine but the core is a mass-produced engine for a sub-compact car. This must make it quite cheap compared to the average low-volume production aircraft engine.

I would guess that the melting down is for two reasons.

First and most important, you wouldn't have that engine going out the back door to be resold and used in another aircraft, perhaps resulting in legal problems for Thielert.

Secondly, most European countries have programs that require recycling, and aluminium is a prime candidate for that.

I flew a diesel-powered DA-42 in the U.K. when I had to do an IR check. I really fell in love with it, especially the Garmin glass. Of course I only had a few hours with it and it was almost new.

The DA-42 does look a bit spindly and insubstantial but then I am used to old-fashioned airplanes made of sheet alloy riveted together. This modern way of building things out of molded composites and CNC-milled alloy is almost unknown to me so that I don't know how to evaluate it.

I hope they get the teething troubles sorted out because it looked like a really neat piece of kit. What with AVGAS being harder and harder to find in many parts of the world this looked like one way forward.

[A and C]

From what I can see the engine has problems when the instalation has not been built by Thielert.

The Thielert retrofits seem to be more reliable but short on power for the PA28 and to a lesser extent the C172, The Robin DR400 instalation seems to be the best but Robin's did not overstep the mark and initaly only put the engine in the lower power trainer market.

With the introduction of the 155HP engine Robin now have the power to replace the 180HP lycoming with a diesel engine that excceds the performance of the Lycoming (if the numbers fron Robin are correct).

The only issue to be sorted now is reliability and I think that the factory are doing quite well with the instalations that they have built, however it is still a very close run thing between the costs of running the Avgas and deisel engine.

[moggiee]

DA40 and DA42 installations of the Centurion 1.7 seem to be more reliable than the aftermarket conversions on other types. This seems to be because the airframe is optimized for the engine and its requirements (e.g. cooling).

I look forward to seeing a 2litre DA42 in action - it will make an interesting comparison with the 1.7s.

[JAYinYYC]

Hi:

I am trying to work out some economics for operating the DA42 as a multi trainer. Can you help with your experiences in terms of operating costs?

[moggiee]

About 75% saving on fuel costs (at UK prices) means that the aeroplane more or less pays for itself with the money you save on fuel.

[Nichibei Aviation]

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