View Full Version : ProLine 21
3rd Feb 2008, 16:22
Have been trawling through the PpruNe search system for comments on the Proline 21 but am getting dozens of useless references due to the 'search' system not liking '21' as it's not a four letter word.... I can easily think of a four letter word I'd like to add but it probably would have little reference to the subject.
Is there anyone out there using it on a regular basis (Proline 21 .. not the four letter word) and who has some interesting comments regarding the training and usage ? I'm about to start with a company using it... any informed opinions gratefully received..
3rd Feb 2008, 19:04
Love every bit of it, very capable kit. Shame you cannot find a cheap CBT-like software to train on. User's manuals are far too much to read or copy...
3rd Feb 2008, 20:14
Flew it on several CJ1/2s and the Challi 300. Loved it. Intuitive and very good displays, if in conjunction with a Collins FMS more info that one could possibly dream of.
Flying Honeywell EPIC right now and I hate it because I know Proline 21. (Sovereign installation that is)
The FMS is the only thing that had me struggle for a while, because I was used to the Universals and the FMS 3000/5000 works different. But it doesn`t take much to get used to it.
3rd Feb 2008, 22:06
Shame you cannot find a cheap CBT-like software to train on.
Collins offers a CBT course for Proline 21. Our pilots used it and found it very useful.
4th Feb 2008, 01:30
The 21 system is a great avionics, fairly simple and user friendly.
But as normal with any equipment there are ways to make it better.
Ether from Collins or from the OEM who installs it; in my case into a Citation.
As for example:
It has an auto switch function to go from Long Range Nav to LOC (pink to green needles how FSI calls it)
Problem; nobody besides maybe the engineers you built it know when and why it is switching. And sometimes it switches on a side cone of a probably bad ILS
Or it does not switch at all. (fairly often) And to do the manual mode change while over shooting the localizer is complicated button pushing including setting the inbound CRS.
In the SIM it works 100% flawless but not in real.
Just for fun; do not touch the display reverse switch during flight. You can end up with one display only (1 from 2). It is re-settable later on the ground!
When in Vnav mode (aircraft on a 3° vertical path) and an overspeed indication occurs, it auto switches to FLC speed mode, but the pilot normally reduces power already before only for the aircraft to pitch down now to keep the speed at max FCL setting.
And in a Citation the Vne changes at around 8000. The red tape jumps down triggering an overspeed fairly often. (when ATC high speed approved)
Gradual speed change software would make the difference.
And an auto switch back from FLC to pitch, when pitching down significantly would make it even better.
The only real bad part is related to the altitude selector knob actually the rotation speed sensitivity for alt pre select.
After years I still can not handle it ! (but might be only me)
For the training,
Use the auto switch function FMS to Loc. contrary to the said above, it makes all easier as freq. is tuned as well.
Watch the mode selector bar on the PFD display very careful; do not look at the buttons on top.
The Vnav and altitude selector functions on approach are a bit complicated, pay attention to understand FMS approach and green needle approach and the consequences for the level off at MDA.
Last word, after flying already with a vector pointers, synthetic vision and highway in the sky avionics the Collins Pro Line 21 is as conservative and simple as one can have it in a Glass cockpit.
Or was it Happy button pushing
4th Feb 2008, 15:46
Collins offers a CBT course for Proline 21. Our pilots used it and found it very useful.
Has your company got that CBT through a training outfit such as FSI or was sent by Collins? Do you know if and how much they charged? We operate Proline 21/Collins 3000FMS-equipped a/cs I sometimes it's nice to reharse stuff on a PC...:uhoh:
4th Feb 2008, 18:29
Thanks to all that have responded... some very useful tips... much appreciated... On the face of it it would seem a pretty spectacular piece of kit.. like most old F*rts I would still appreciate a dinner plate sized illuminated Red Button within easy reach that could be punched when I wanted some good old raw data and hands on flying... But I went through this distrustful mode when first dealing with EFIS years ago and got to love it ... once again... thanks to all... :D
4th Feb 2008, 19:46
You mean - Autopilot disconnect and FD off!!
Works a treat.
Agree that it is a great piece of kit though.
4th Feb 2008, 22:14
Yeeah agree with all said above.......I have flown virtually every FMS, avionics set up, there is & would have to say Pro line 21 is as good as they come.
There are a few gottcha's, best advice is to keep it simple, make sure the FMS is doing what you want it to!! build up slowly and really get to understand the FMS logic.
That is the key, any fool can press buttons in a sophiscated box when things are going well, but what happens when a couple of non standard things occur, and you start to get a little behind the aircraft, the good thing is with the P21 that the displays are so clear that your choice is displayed to you on the MFD as dashed lines before you execute it! Just take a few seconds to check that is the command you want....
Also has 1xxxx1 says it does sometimes not auto couple, I found the best thing to do is set up PNF's PFD inbound course prior to intercept, ready with frequency already tuned. (Depending on SOP's).
Again look at your FMA's..........if APPR FMS1 displays & you want APPR VOR1 make sure you know the difference between them, whats gone wrong & importantly HOW TO CORRECT IT!!
Fanastice bit of kit & when it is understood & used correctly it makes it a lot easier.
4th Feb 2008, 23:56
We got the CBT straight from Collins. It's their course. After doing the CBT, we went to the Collins facility at KICT to twiddle knobs and push buttons. They have a classroom course as well. Then we did the aircraft course.....made life much more friendly!
8th May 2009, 22:00
Does anyone know whatīs the name of the training CBT software ?
Iīve heard it is called V.I.S.T.A. if itis really the name the search engines get confused with windows:oh:
9th May 2009, 22:01
Well, compared with the kit in the Airbus or B777, it's overcomplicated and awkward! But the aircraft it's attached to are in my opinion more enjoyable, so I got used to it and put up with its foibles.
10th May 2009, 12:46
Iīve got a copy of the Collins Proline FMS Trainer.
Itīs 200 MB. Send me a PM.
10th May 2009, 19:45
Have flown it on two types, and recently back on it. I agree with all comments expessed so far, and in general I like it a lot. As others have noted, the "auto tune" feature of the ILS/LOC seems to have mind of its own, and often does not auto tune. Sometimes it announces in advance that it will "auto tune," often it tells you nothing, but does auto tune, and from time to time it tells you nothing - and does no tuning whatsoever. It's a VERY clever bit of kit as it seems to know when you are NOT going to be shooting a visual approach - it's on such occassions that it NEVER auto tunes!
As mentioned by another poster, we make a habit of setting up the ILS/LOC manually for every approach - just like in those days when steam and round dials ruled!
The rest of it is great though, once you get familiar.
10th May 2009, 20:17
the autotuning (which can be observed on the "Tune" page) can get kicked out for a number of reasons like setting DME hold or switching to green needles. However, the FMS is still scanning for VOR/DME stations on two other "invisible" channels.
The autoswap works only for ILS approaches provided that the approach is loaded in the FMS, "approach" is punched and you are within 90 degrees of the inbound course (you could in theory use the autoswap also for a LOC approach, you just have to remember to switch back from APPR to NAV when the localiser is captured). Normally, the localiser frequency as well as the inbound course should be selected automatically by the FMS and the frequency also should show on the PFD. You also get a "ghost needle" showing the inbound course of the localiser and a message "Loc will be tuned" on the CDU. The autoswap occurs, I think, when the next waypoint is either the FAF or the FACF (a point created by the FMS 2-3 miles before the FAF to ensure a proper lineup of the aircraft before the FAF). Maybe punching DME hold before the LOC frequency is automatically selected prevents the automatic tuning by the FMS? Anyway, there is no harm doing the nav setup manually, it keeps you better in the loop.
The Mad Russian
12th May 2009, 07:52
Proline 21 Very pretty to look at... seems under developed compared to the airliner avionics I've used before, particularly the FCC software.
Our CL 605 seems unable to capture a LOC cleanly, either in NAV to NAV transfer or 'green' source selected 'it' turns to a 30 degree intercept (normally fairly aggressively), sits there wobbling/rocking the wings for a while and sometimes changing heading by 5 degrees or so.. before finally 'pinning' the localizer... is this normal for this bit of kit?? Aerials have been checked... Can't remember the B737 or 757/767 avionics having these capture problems.
AP FLC mode has a nice and pronounced 'porpoise' effect when the speed drops 1 kt slow... passengers must love it... requiring the use of V/S or pitch to smooth things.
Can't view the co-located ILS DME read out without 'green' source being selected on PM/PNF side.. retrograde step from CL 604.
The most heard phrase on our flightdeck regarding the autopilots handling abilities is.. 'Ooo what the hell is 'it' doing now!' normally with some hilarity..
Underdeveloped or just our FCCs (all 4)??
I do like the VGP function.. works very well.
12th May 2009, 08:33
There is a work around for the ILS DME problem: select one bearing indicator to VOR before punching in the LOC frequency, that should give you a DME readout.
The Mad Russian
13th May 2009, 08:21
Thanks Max, We've tried something similar, the 605 setup just removes the VOR pointer from view (and the DME indication with it) when it detects an ILS frequency selection on the TUNE page. Perhaps the sequence is important... I'll try it again.
Any other reports of poor LOC capture or the partial capture.. 'rocking wings' act with this system on a CL 605??
18th May 2009, 08:05
I have been flying the pro line 21 package since Raytheon started putting them on Hawker 800s. Cant complain a bit really the only problem is when you got two guys fighting each other over how to run the system. Remember there is somewhere between 2 and 18 different ways to accomplish the same thing on the box thats a great thing and sometimes not so great.
learn the basics LEARN THE BASICS and step down on the automation at the first sign something isnt right because Dogs watching TV will bend metal. Oh BTW when you start thinking your an expert.... the 21 will quickly correct you my friend.
18th May 2009, 08:41
For the mad Russian: Partial captures are not uncommon. Steer in and on the loc with the heading bug when at any angle that might remotely require a bank of more than 15 degrees (wind, intercepte angle or whatever) and if coming down to capture or fly into the top of glide slope at the proper altitude pay particular attention. Such as being vectored. Always a GOOD idea to run the other guys system in raw data just in case you need it for reference, sounds elementary but alot of good pilots miss the need for raw data when using the system. The system is great for tran atlantic ops as well and the version with the file server can give you some welcome advatages with borders and one more thing watch the VNAV feature when flying on meters. I love the pro line 21, the pros and the cons that come with it make it a very interesting suite.
18th May 2009, 14:35
I have never like the auto capture function on this equipment. Its inconsistent.
I prefer the old method of switching to green needles from white and verfiying capture on both left and right seats.
To much automation eliminates the cross checking that is so fundamental to good cockpit operations.
18th May 2009, 16:57
PL21 is a good basic system...
However, compared to what you get in airliners - unnecessarily complicated and with limited sensor input.
I thought the inability to capture and track a LOC cleanly was due to us flying a small piece of kit with just 2 x AHRS iso 3 x ADIRU. However, reading Mad Russian's comments, it seems like PL21 FCCs don't take actual track info into account. The prominence that the guys and girls designing it placed on track info is probably best illustrated by how that info is presented - a tiny green dot, for :mad: sake...
Have found the AutoTransfer reliable - only problems I have seen is when people don't let it do its own thing. However, have noticed that transfer to capture is very late - way after you'd have captured it in green needles. If on arrival usually not a problem, but staying in magenta during RV is not something I'd recommend.
The entire thing about having to switch to magenta needles to get LNAV is just daft - hasn't improved one little bit since I flew a B1900D 7 years ago... Again, looking at how it's done in a 777/330 wouldn't have hurt at all. Embedded LNAV for the next update, thanks! Would get rid of all that auto-switching / manual switching melakee as well in one, fell swoop.
Oh, and the EADI - for crying out loud, it's as small as in a 73CL or an ATR! Large format, thanks - 777/330-style again. BIG and EASY to read. DME read-out relocated to near primary scan as well, thanks.
...in fact, rip the entire installation out of a 73NG (incl. the excellent FMS) and throw it in instead - then we're getting somewhere! :}
20th May 2009, 23:37
I have been flying the Pro-Line 21 for about a year now in a King Air 350. I agree with what most others have said on here. It sure does not like VFR flying in the mountains below the terrain! Doesn't seem to shut up sometimes :) Cheers
22nd May 2009, 09:39
I have deleted most of the PM , so canīt contact all of you that have asked me for a copy.
I forgot to put the manuel of the FMS on to the server. Done that now.
14th Jun 2009, 13:04
I am currently a CPL pilot about to start a King Air IFR course,I was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction to download the Pro Line 21 FMS trainer (I gave inbalance a PM but no luck for 2 weeks now).
I am also wondering if there are CBT copies available for the actually PFD and ND of the Pro Line 21 (something similar to the Garmin G1000 trainer?).
15th Jun 2009, 05:23
Still no joy:sad:.
By the way, is the Proline 21 CBT compatible with a joystick?
28th Apr 2010, 19:39
I'm looking for the Collins Proline FMS Trainer.
Can anybody help me with one
30th Apr 2010, 09:34
King Schools have some courses online for the PL21 and a few others, quite expensive though, approx $500 ish.
4th Aug 2010, 09:33
Did anyone get a link from inbalance??? Pls let me know... thks
7th Aug 2010, 13:19
If anyone can send me link, where to download Collins Proline FMS trainer I would be happy.
26th Dec 2010, 21:37
Anyone since, had any success locating a King Air 350 Proline 21 FMS guide or even a flightdeck companion equivalent? Closest I have found was a Pilot Manual from Collins (2in binder) for $42. Heading to FSI in a couple months, any help would be appreciated.
26th Dec 2010, 22:23
Unfortunately no. I fly a ProLine21 aircraft and have so many people asking me for info and material, unfortunately there is hardly any I can find, and what I do, it's expensive.
If you have EFIS time and a good concept of how electronic systems work, should be no real problem.
All the best
27th Dec 2010, 13:14
Thanks for responding. I'll see what I can get a hold of between now & FSI and maybe I can be helpful. I do have EFIS/PFD/FMS time but any insight ahead of time would be helpful.
28th Dec 2010, 08:27
Proline 21 is simply the screens it is what drives the Proline that is important. For example the Citation C525+ tend to have Cpllins 3000 whereas the straight C525 has Universal. The B200 and B90 GT both use the Collins 300. Collins have CBT training but it isnt great - the best way is to sit in an aircraft with ground power and someone who knows what they are doing.
28th Dec 2010, 09:37
I still have some Pro Line 21 manuals for the Hawker 800XPi. Of course, some of the items are Hawker specific but the overall package remains the same. Since you will be training with FSI, there is also the possibility to register with MyFlightSafety (http://myflightsafety.com) and download the King Air training manuals a couple of weeks ahead of course start.
28th Dec 2010, 16:00
I wouldn't worry too much. FSI have a fantastic set up for training. They have advanced 'cardboard bomber' procedural trainers with touch screens to simulate all of the PL21 functions. from memory you're free to use these as often as you like once the instructors have shown you the basics. You'll learn more in an afternoon on that than you will in a week in the books.
The FMS drives the screens but there is a bit of function around the actual PFD's and MFD's too. The only way to learn it is practice, and the best place is Flight Safety on the actual sim and trainers. Relax, you'll be fine!! And as Max says you can begin pre course study through their web site.
27th Jan 2011, 02:04
hi, i have a problem with the fms-3000, after turn off the electrical power in the plane, and turn on again, all information in the FMS disappears, please help me what is the reason, what do i have to do .....thanks
27th Jan 2011, 07:50
Do you mean you lose GPS pilot stored data / Flight Plan data or default settings?
Might be time to change the batteries, I think they have a 2 year life
10th Feb 2011, 20:05
Would like opinions on the above.
I haven't read any definitive guidance on the matter.
I recently completed the type rating in October and mode selection on take-off wasn't fully explored.
Current set up is HDG with NAV armed; PITCH with ALTS armed. Pitch wheel is rotated to 12 deg nose up.
Does anybody arm VNAV on the ground? I was thinking that this would work well, especially with no auto throttle available. Just trying to limit the button pushing I guess.
Further, anybody use the sync function?
Would be interested to hear opinions...
13th Feb 2011, 01:12
"Positive rate, gear up"
"Gimme heading (or Nav) FLC (or VS)"
Not so tough.
All you worried about the Nav-to-nav transfer, you can still select it manually, no biggy.
A 605 will not nav/nav if the intercept is too shallow, it needs to detect a solid motion from the ILS CDI. Select Nav Source manually.
Wing waggling? Need to consult Bombardier, they will send you to Collins.
"What is the best FMS system?" "The one you earn your living with."
Edited to add: save your money on learning software, if you can't pick it up at the training centre on your type rating you are not doing your homework.
ps Flying below terrain? TAWS/EGPWS not 21.
9th Apr 2011, 17:08
Hi, interested in any Collins Proline 21 training materials you may have. Thank you. iavaite@<hidden>
13th Jun 2011, 21:29
looking for someone who knows what the little adjustment screws labeled "S" and "T" located next to the pilot and copilot intercom volume control knob are used for. i was hoping they would adjust the squelch since it seems i have to halfways yell for the mic to pick up my voice if it isn't touching my face. the auto squelch doesn't seem to be working properly if there is one.
6th Nov 2011, 10:29
There's supposed to be a 200 MB Collins Pro Line 21/FMS-3000 Trainer out there, but I haven't managed to get my paws on it yet. :hmm:
If anyone can hook a brother up, please e-mail me at gambitpro@<hidden>
I'm transitioning to a CJ3 shortly, and I really want to be ahead of the game.
im am very interested as well in the proline21 fms trainer.
I would be very happy to get a copy or a download link..