ProLine 21
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: edge of reality
Posts: 792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ProLine 21
Have been trawling through the PpruNe search system for comments on the Proline 21 but am getting dozens of useless references due to the 'search' system not liking '21' as it's not a four letter word.... I can easily think of a four letter word I'd like to add but it probably would have little reference to the subject.
Is there anyone out there using it on a regular basis (Proline 21 .. not the four letter word) and who has some interesting comments regarding the training and usage ? I'm about to start with a company using it... any informed opinions gratefully received..
Is there anyone out there using it on a regular basis (Proline 21 .. not the four letter word) and who has some interesting comments regarding the training and usage ? I'm about to start with a company using it... any informed opinions gratefully received..
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flew it on several CJ1/2s and the Challi 300. Loved it. Intuitive and very good displays, if in conjunction with a Collins FMS more info that one could possibly dream of.
Flying Honeywell EPIC right now and I hate it because I know Proline 21. (Sovereign installation that is)
The FMS is the only thing that had me struggle for a while, because I was used to the Universals and the FMS 3000/5000 works different. But it doesn`t take much to get used to it.
Flying Honeywell EPIC right now and I hate it because I know Proline 21. (Sovereign installation that is)
The FMS is the only thing that had me struggle for a while, because I was used to the Universals and the FMS 3000/5000 works different. But it doesn`t take much to get used to it.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hotel
Age: 64
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 21 system is a great avionics, fairly simple and user friendly.
But as normal with any equipment there are ways to make it better.
Ether from Collins or from the OEM who installs it; in my case into a Citation.
As for example:
It has an auto switch function to go from Long Range Nav to LOC (pink to green needles how FSI calls it)
Problem; nobody besides maybe the engineers you built it know when and why it is switching. And sometimes it switches on a side cone of a probably bad ILS
Or it does not switch at all. (fairly often) And to do the manual mode change while over shooting the localizer is complicated button pushing including setting the inbound CRS.
In the SIM it works 100% flawless but not in real.
Just for fun; do not touch the display reverse switch during flight. You can end up with one display only (1 from 2). It is re-settable later on the ground!
When in Vnav mode (aircraft on a 3° vertical path) and an overspeed indication occurs, it auto switches to FLC speed mode, but the pilot normally reduces power already before only for the aircraft to pitch down now to keep the speed at max FCL setting.
And in a Citation the Vne changes at around 8000’. The red tape jumps down triggering an overspeed fairly often. (when ATC high speed approved)
Gradual speed change software would make the difference.
And an auto switch back from FLC to pitch, when pitching down significantly would make it even better.
The only real bad part is related to the altitude selector knob actually the rotation speed sensitivity for alt pre select.
After years I still can not handle it ! (but might be only me)
For the training,
Use the auto switch function FMS to Loc. contrary to the said above, it makes all easier as freq. is tuned as well.
Watch the mode selector bar on the PFD display very careful; do not look at the buttons on top.
The Vnav and altitude selector functions on approach are a bit complicated, pay attention to understand FMS approach and green needle approach and the consequences for the level off at MDA.
Last word, after flying already with a vector pointers, synthetic vision and highway in the sky avionics the Collins Pro Line 21 is as conservative and simple as one can have it in a Glass cockpit.
Happy flying
Or was it Happy button pushing
But as normal with any equipment there are ways to make it better.
Ether from Collins or from the OEM who installs it; in my case into a Citation.
As for example:
It has an auto switch function to go from Long Range Nav to LOC (pink to green needles how FSI calls it)
Problem; nobody besides maybe the engineers you built it know when and why it is switching. And sometimes it switches on a side cone of a probably bad ILS
Or it does not switch at all. (fairly often) And to do the manual mode change while over shooting the localizer is complicated button pushing including setting the inbound CRS.
In the SIM it works 100% flawless but not in real.
Just for fun; do not touch the display reverse switch during flight. You can end up with one display only (1 from 2). It is re-settable later on the ground!
When in Vnav mode (aircraft on a 3° vertical path) and an overspeed indication occurs, it auto switches to FLC speed mode, but the pilot normally reduces power already before only for the aircraft to pitch down now to keep the speed at max FCL setting.
And in a Citation the Vne changes at around 8000’. The red tape jumps down triggering an overspeed fairly often. (when ATC high speed approved)
Gradual speed change software would make the difference.
And an auto switch back from FLC to pitch, when pitching down significantly would make it even better.
The only real bad part is related to the altitude selector knob actually the rotation speed sensitivity for alt pre select.
After years I still can not handle it ! (but might be only me)
For the training,
Use the auto switch function FMS to Loc. contrary to the said above, it makes all easier as freq. is tuned as well.
Watch the mode selector bar on the PFD display very careful; do not look at the buttons on top.
The Vnav and altitude selector functions on approach are a bit complicated, pay attention to understand FMS approach and green needle approach and the consequences for the level off at MDA.
Last word, after flying already with a vector pointers, synthetic vision and highway in the sky avionics the Collins Pro Line 21 is as conservative and simple as one can have it in a Glass cockpit.
Happy flying
Or was it Happy button pushing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: somewhere
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Collins offers a CBT course for Proline 21. Our pilots used it and found it very useful.
DK
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: edge of reality
Posts: 792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks to all that have responded... some very useful tips... much appreciated... On the face of it it would seem a pretty spectacular piece of kit.. like most old F*rts I would still appreciate a dinner plate sized illuminated Red Button within easy reach that could be punched when I wanted some good old raw data and hands on flying... But I went through this distrustful mode when first dealing with EFIS years ago and got to love it ... once again... thanks to all... 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: london
Age: 52
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeeah agree with all said above.......I have flown virtually every FMS, avionics set up, there is & would have to say Pro line 21 is as good as they come.
There are a few gottcha's, best advice is to keep it simple, make sure the FMS is doing what you want it to!! build up slowly and really get to understand the FMS logic.
That is the key, any fool can press buttons in a sophiscated box when things are going well, but what happens when a couple of non standard things occur, and you start to get a little behind the aircraft, the good thing is with the P21 that the displays are so clear that your choice is displayed to you on the MFD as dashed lines before you execute it! Just take a few seconds to check that is the command you want....
Also has 1xxxx1 says it does sometimes not auto couple, I found the best thing to do is set up PNF's PFD inbound course prior to intercept, ready with frequency already tuned. (Depending on SOP's).
Again look at your FMA's..........if APPR FMS1 displays & you want APPR VOR1 make sure you know the difference between them, whats gone wrong & importantly HOW TO CORRECT IT!!
Fanastice bit of kit & when it is understood & used correctly it makes it a lot easier.
There are a few gottcha's, best advice is to keep it simple, make sure the FMS is doing what you want it to!! build up slowly and really get to understand the FMS logic.
That is the key, any fool can press buttons in a sophiscated box when things are going well, but what happens when a couple of non standard things occur, and you start to get a little behind the aircraft, the good thing is with the P21 that the displays are so clear that your choice is displayed to you on the MFD as dashed lines before you execute it! Just take a few seconds to check that is the command you want....
Also has 1xxxx1 says it does sometimes not auto couple, I found the best thing to do is set up PNF's PFD inbound course prior to intercept, ready with frequency already tuned. (Depending on SOP's).
Again look at your FMA's..........if APPR FMS1 displays & you want APPR VOR1 make sure you know the difference between them, whats gone wrong & importantly HOW TO CORRECT IT!!
Fanastice bit of kit & when it is understood & used correctly it makes it a lot easier.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Canada
Age: 68
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DK,
We got the CBT straight from Collins. It's their course. After doing the CBT, we went to the Collins facility at KICT to twiddle knobs and push buttons. They have a classroom course as well. Then we did the aircraft course.....made life much more friendly!
Cheers
We got the CBT straight from Collins. It's their course. After doing the CBT, we went to the Collins facility at KICT to twiddle knobs and push buttons. They have a classroom course as well. Then we did the aircraft course.....made life much more friendly!
Cheers
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Reading
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does anyone know what´s the name of the training CBT software ?
I´ve heard it is called V.I.S.T.A. if itis really the name the search engines get confused with windows
Cheers
I´ve heard it is called V.I.S.T.A. if itis really the name the search engines get confused with windows
Cheers
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: somewhere
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, compared with the kit in the Airbus or B777, it's overcomplicated and awkward! But the aircraft it's attached to are in my opinion more enjoyable, so I got used to it and put up with its foibles.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Poland
Age: 69
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have flown it on two types, and recently back on it. I agree with all comments expessed so far, and in general I like it a lot. As others have noted, the "auto tune" feature of the ILS/LOC seems to have mind of its own, and often does not auto tune. Sometimes it announces in advance that it will "auto tune," often it tells you nothing, but does auto tune, and from time to time it tells you nothing - and does no tuning whatsoever. It's a VERY clever bit of kit as it seems to know when you are NOT going to be shooting a visual approach - it's on such occassions that it NEVER auto tunes!
As mentioned by another poster, we make a habit of setting up the ILS/LOC manually for every approach - just like in those days when steam and round dials ruled!
The rest of it is great though, once you get familiar.
As mentioned by another poster, we make a habit of setting up the ILS/LOC manually for every approach - just like in those days when steam and round dials ruled!
The rest of it is great though, once you get familiar.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: germany
Age: 52
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
autotuning/autoswap
the autotuning (which can be observed on the "Tune" page) can get kicked out for a number of reasons like setting DME hold or switching to green needles. However, the FMS is still scanning for VOR/DME stations on two other "invisible" channels.
The autoswap works only for ILS approaches provided that the approach is loaded in the FMS, "approach" is punched and you are within 90 degrees of the inbound course (you could in theory use the autoswap also for a LOC approach, you just have to remember to switch back from APPR to NAV when the localiser is captured). Normally, the localiser frequency as well as the inbound course should be selected automatically by the FMS and the frequency also should show on the PFD. You also get a "ghost needle" showing the inbound course of the localiser and a message "Loc will be tuned" on the CDU. The autoswap occurs, I think, when the next waypoint is either the FAF or the FACF (a point created by the FMS 2-3 miles before the FAF to ensure a proper lineup of the aircraft before the FAF). Maybe punching DME hold before the LOC frequency is automatically selected prevents the automatic tuning by the FMS? Anyway, there is no harm doing the nav setup manually, it keeps you better in the loop.
The autoswap works only for ILS approaches provided that the approach is loaded in the FMS, "approach" is punched and you are within 90 degrees of the inbound course (you could in theory use the autoswap also for a LOC approach, you just have to remember to switch back from APPR to NAV when the localiser is captured). Normally, the localiser frequency as well as the inbound course should be selected automatically by the FMS and the frequency also should show on the PFD. You also get a "ghost needle" showing the inbound course of the localiser and a message "Loc will be tuned" on the CDU. The autoswap occurs, I think, when the next waypoint is either the FAF or the FACF (a point created by the FMS 2-3 miles before the FAF to ensure a proper lineup of the aircraft before the FAF). Maybe punching DME hold before the LOC frequency is automatically selected prevents the automatic tuning by the FMS? Anyway, there is no harm doing the nav setup manually, it keeps you better in the loop.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Left seat of a Boeing... mostly!
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Proline 21 Very pretty to look at... seems under developed compared to the airliner avionics I've used before, particularly the FCC software.
Our CL 605 seems unable to capture a LOC cleanly, either in NAV to NAV transfer or 'green' source selected 'it' turns to a 30 degree intercept (normally fairly aggressively), sits there wobbling/rocking the wings for a while and sometimes changing heading by 5 degrees or so.. before finally 'pinning' the localizer... is this normal for this bit of kit?? Aerials have been checked... Can't remember the B737 or 757/767 avionics having these capture problems.
AP FLC mode has a nice and pronounced 'porpoise' effect when the speed drops 1 kt slow... passengers must love it... requiring the use of V/S or pitch to smooth things.
Can't view the co-located ILS DME read out without 'green' source being selected on PM/PNF side.. retrograde step from CL 604.
The most heard phrase on our flightdeck regarding the autopilots handling abilities is.. 'Ooo what the hell is 'it' doing now!' normally with some hilarity..
Underdeveloped or just our FCCs (all 4)??
I do like the VGP function.. works very well.
Our CL 605 seems unable to capture a LOC cleanly, either in NAV to NAV transfer or 'green' source selected 'it' turns to a 30 degree intercept (normally fairly aggressively), sits there wobbling/rocking the wings for a while and sometimes changing heading by 5 degrees or so.. before finally 'pinning' the localizer... is this normal for this bit of kit?? Aerials have been checked... Can't remember the B737 or 757/767 avionics having these capture problems.
AP FLC mode has a nice and pronounced 'porpoise' effect when the speed drops 1 kt slow... passengers must love it... requiring the use of V/S or pitch to smooth things.
Can't view the co-located ILS DME read out without 'green' source being selected on PM/PNF side.. retrograde step from CL 604.
The most heard phrase on our flightdeck regarding the autopilots handling abilities is.. 'Ooo what the hell is 'it' doing now!' normally with some hilarity..
Underdeveloped or just our FCCs (all 4)??
I do like the VGP function.. works very well.
Hawker driver
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Usually Marriotts
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a work around for the ILS DME problem: select one bearing indicator to VOR before punching in the LOC frequency, that should give you a DME readout.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Left seat of a Boeing... mostly!
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Max, We've tried something similar, the 605 setup just removes the VOR pointer from view (and the DME indication with it) when it detects an ILS frequency selection on the TUNE page. Perhaps the sequence is important... I'll try it again.
Any other reports of poor LOC capture or the partial capture.. 'rocking wings' act with this system on a CL 605??
Any other reports of poor LOC capture or the partial capture.. 'rocking wings' act with this system on a CL 605??
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: world wide
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have been flying the pro line 21 package since Raytheon started putting them on Hawker 800s. Cant complain a bit really the only problem is when you got two guys fighting each other over how to run the system. Remember there is somewhere between 2 and 18 different ways to accomplish the same thing on the box thats a great thing and sometimes not so great.
learn the basics LEARN THE BASICS and step down on the automation at the first sign something isnt right because Dogs watching TV will bend metal. Oh BTW when you start thinking your an expert.... the 21 will quickly correct you my friend.
learn the basics LEARN THE BASICS and step down on the automation at the first sign something isnt right because Dogs watching TV will bend metal. Oh BTW when you start thinking your an expert.... the 21 will quickly correct you my friend.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: world wide
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the mad Russian: Partial captures are not uncommon. Steer in and on the loc with the heading bug when at any angle that might remotely require a bank of more than 15 degrees (wind, intercepte angle or whatever) and if coming down to capture or fly into the top of glide slope at the proper altitude pay particular attention. Such as being vectored. Always a GOOD idea to run the other guys system in raw data just in case you need it for reference, sounds elementary but alot of good pilots miss the need for raw data when using the system. The system is great for tran atlantic ops as well and the version with the file server can give you some welcome advatages with borders and one more thing watch the VNAV feature when flying on meters. I love the pro line 21, the pros and the cons that come with it make it a very interesting suite.