BSc (Hons) Aircraft Maintenance Top-up degree [Archive]

Rigga

1st Feb 2008, 21:53

Not too sure... but if you have a BSc in Aircraft Maintenance you are entitiled to apply for a C Licence and, following a (mere) further 12 months of practical experience and a Pt147 approved Type Course, the opportunity to release aircraft from base Maintenance!

As mentioned by Vortechs, not a great way to fully understand the ways of the Beast - more likely to understand the ways of the Beancounter.

However, if you already have a B1/B2 - after five years of certifying you get the same priviliges and have truly been inducted into mainteance, fully deserving the C Licence.

I have nothing against the academic route - I just have no faith in the possible "intentions" of its future use.

Yoth

5th Feb 2008, 12:21

I have done the Kingston course and I am also a C cert licensed engineer with over 20 years experience.
There is no substitute for actual hands on experience on live aircraft in as many different enviroments as possible, a degree will not help you gain that experience.
What the degree HAS given me is added confidence and a positive change in attitude from my fellow licensed engineers. The degree has also enabled me to become involved in airworthiness and technical support roles and therefore I have become more of an asset to an organisation with the added job security and pay raise that goes with that. I have also become involved in writing and delivering aviation training packages.
All of the above could have happened without the degree, but the degree has made it much easier.
The course is achievable in 2 years, and speaking for myself, I needed to put in a lot of consistent effort to get a good mark which is time consuming but also very rewarding.
Overall, the best thing about having a degree is that it gives me options. No-one outside of this messed up industry knows what a licensed engineer is, or what the academic equivalent of a license is, a degree enables you to look at complimentary industries (tech services, consultancy, manufacturing, training, etc) and apply for jobs that are not possible without a degree.
Hope this helps.

Mark Nine

5th Feb 2008, 19:44

Brilliant Yoth, just the sort of detailed post I was looking for :ok:
I can now see the point in a cat C licence holder going for it. Do you mind me asking what sort of effort you put into it, (hours per day, days per week) and a rough idea of cost?

Thanks in advance

Yoth

6th Feb 2008, 14:19

I'm not sure of the price of the course as I beleieve that they put the price up recently.
Accommodation is expensive around Kingston, but the only times that you HAVE to turn up is to deliver the group project presentation, the end of first year exams, then the individual project presenatation and finally, the end of year 2 exams.
You do not have to turn up to any of the lectures, all the study material is made available on line. When you register, you are given a recommended reading list. Personally, the only one I bought was Exploring Corporate Strategy by Johnson & Scholes for the business studies module. Everyting else is available on line now. Wikipedia rules!!!
I would recommend that you turned up for the technology lecture week in the first year, lots of maths. The second module in the first year is an extended romp through air leg and basic aircraft engineering principles, NDT, planning, etc. So depending on your knowledge of these subjects I would give it a miss. The group project presentation is delivered during the second module week of the first year.
Year 2 I would turn up for both the modules. The business studies week is first and I thought was the best one of the four. The last module is Quality Systems, such as Six Sigma, continuous improvement methods, etc. I needed as much info on these subjects as I could get. The handouts on the Quality module was sufficient to study for the exam, so no need to buy any books.
In the first year you will have to team up with a number of your fellow students, who you may not know and produce a group project. This project is chosen amongst the group and must be relevant and have sufficient technical and academic merit for it to be accepted by the University. The group project is the one that absorbs the most time, not just in the writing but also arranging meetings with the other members of the group, all of which have to be minuted and agendas agreed, etc. Big pain in the arse. You also have to write a log book of the project, which is a diary of the project, what you did, any people you had meetings with, any research you did on the project, sketches, ideas, it was endless. I would say that in the first year I was averaging 10-15 hours a week on University stuff. Writing assignments, researching for the project, writing the project, reading up on various subjects, studying for exams, etc.
It is a relief to get the first year out of the way.
The second year is much calmer, the individual project takes up less time and the assignments for the modules were easier to compile because I was more used to it. The exams were easier too.
I seemed to have banged on a bit. Hope this helps.....

146fixer

6th Feb 2008, 20:44

Unlike Yoth my degree from Kingston has been of no use. None of my employers has seen it as a plus point and my fellow engineers are indifferant. But then as metioned before no one outside the industry knows what a license is, so that was one of the reasons why I did it at the time. If given the choice again I think I would use the money for a B2 course.
Also its up to you. You might wont the chalenge of doing it.
The certificate will look good on your wall.

Vortechs Jenerator

6th Feb 2008, 21:16

I am also a C cert licensed engineer with over 20 years experience.

I'm intrigued as to what that means? Do you clear check inputs?

Are you also B1/B2? If you got the C cert off the back of a degree then you only got it in the last 4 1/2 years if you don't hold any other lic cats with approvals.

I got my C license on all my types because I was clearing SMICRS on Base checks already for a few years when I chopped in my BCAR A&C for a full B1 when I passed the restriction modules and had the necessary experience requirements a few years back:confused:

Parity

7th Feb 2008, 08:08

Mark Nine

I also have done the Top Up degree with Kingston. Overall I found it a very positive experience. I have B1/B2 licences and type ratings but I joined the degree program to expand my non technical knowledge. In comparison to type rating courses where answers are black and white, the degree challenges you, and broadens your outlook.

Mark Nine

7th Feb 2008, 12:44

Thanks for everything guys :ok:
So far, no one has commented on the Barry College part-time course. Does that say something in its self?

sumps

8th Feb 2008, 12:44

I too have done the Kingston course – however as I am in the mob I wanted it to capitalise on my HND and take me up to degree status. My end game is NOT that of B1 / 2 but to go into another part of the industry or another area of engineering altogether.

As has been said you will cover four taught modules each with assignments and exams along with two projects. MODULE DESCRIPTION pdf (http://www.kingston.ac.uk/~kuweb/aircraft_eng/downloads/Honoursmoduledescriptions.pdf)

The first year being very pertinent to the aviation industry in terms of technology and materials (plenty of maths to get your head around) followed by the maintenance and logistics, which as a military type I had to work hard at in order to get my head around the ledg’ and get my assignment correct.
Year two was really interesting I guess due to the fact it was away from my comfort zone but not so much so that the subject became too difficult or un interesting. The business studies will give you a good idea of how the company wants to progress (more likely how the company accountants want you to make their wallets larger!). I do remember writing for Britain in the exam – four questions in 3 hours, I wrote 5 pages on the first question alone. The quality module, in some way, dove tailing into the business studies unlike others I had to read lots for this because of my lack of exposure to TQM, 6Sigma, Risk SPC ant others.

I felt that the exposure you gain whilst researching your assignments / projects may give you that impetus to explore other areas that you may not have considered – in summary a very good course and I ended up with a first. – Its not too hard to get a 2:2 but you will have to put the effort in if you want moor.

The current cost is about £3000 – you may want to phone the course supervisor to confirm this. KINGSTON WEB (http://www.kingston.ac.uk/~kuweb/aircraft_eng/courses/honours.htm)

Wing_man

10th Feb 2008, 09:42

"BSc (Hons) Aircraft Maintenance top-up degrees being offered by Barry College "

check if this is accredited

<w-m>

belfastvern

10th Feb 2008, 12:09

Currently doing this degree with Barry college but its through university of Glamorgan. been in industry 30 years but only have licence 2 years due to being a workshops man for a long time. I would have to say that anyone working in this fickle industry must obtain a licence first and foremost, the degree is in my opinion is a personal goal for those of us that went from school to an apprenticeship as most employers are only interested in licence and type ratings unless you are going office bound in whatever guise that entails. Make no mistake, your B1/B2 ticket is what makes you eminently employable and not letters after your name.:rolleyes:

Mark Nine

10th Feb 2008, 19:01

Have to agree with you Vern on the point that licences and type tickets come first, but now that I have a Cat C licence and all the tickets I need, I'm looking for something else to challenge me.
Please could you P.M. me with more details of the course, costs etc.

nodrama

21st Jan 2009, 16:33

Can anyone give me an example of what a module assignment entails for the Barry College (ICAT) top-up BSc degree in aircraft maintenance engineering.....for example module 3 or 4?

MartinCh

21st Jan 2009, 18:18

BEng(Hons) top-up - Kingston University - Aircraft Engineering (http://www.kingston.ac.uk/aircrafteng/courses/honours.htm)
BEng is NOT BSc. Well, they say they've been deemed by CAA as acceptable.
I haven't noticed anything of this nature regarding Glamorgan/ICAT course and their BSc. The PDF (link) below does not stipulate what has to be in.

from linked PDF: F2.4 Graduate Route
A graduate holding a degree in Aeronautical
Engineering, or a similar discipline that is considered by
the CAA relevant to aircraft maintenance that has been
accepted for this purpose by the CAA, must have at
least 3 years experience in a civil aircraft maintenance
environment including 6 months of observation of base
maintenance tasks. There are currently no standard
assessment terms for these applications and therefore
applicants are advised, before applying for licence
issue, to ensure they meet the experience criteria in
accordance with Part-66.A.30 and related AMC. A
person qualifying for a Category C licence via this route
will not be entitled to a Category B1 or B2 licence
unless the requirements for those Categories are also
met.

Newcastle Aviation College website mentions their BSc option, but that's not BEng Kingston has directly as I understand it.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ELGDBook_07_WebVersion.pdf
Scroll to page 58.
Found this one on neighbouring thread here (http://www.pprune.org/engineers-technicians/355386-b1-1-experience-questions.html)

I don't see 12 months only in there (or don't seem to find it) for C cat. They mention 3 years.
That is, if one only finishes 'academic route' towards C cat lic.
I'm just an observer about to embark on 'part 66 degree', no experience myself, but have been watching the threads for some time.

nodrama

21st Jan 2009, 18:50

Anyone done or doing the BSc top-up degree at Barry that can give me an idea of what the assignment work involves ??

I've got a B1 & Cat C with mucho time served with a spanner and a pen, just looking for something to keep my brain busy.

Blacksheep

22nd Jan 2009, 07:44

A degree in aircraft maintenance won't add much to your overall skills.

If you want to get a degree as a "banker" for moving outside the industry or which will be useful when moving up into management, rather than staying with a specialist degree in aircraft maintenance, I'd recommend studying for a more general management degree such as a BSc in Economics.

In addition to compulsory modules that cover the important business areas such as management accounting (bean counting), corporate finance, human resources, industrial psychology etc., you can add interesting options such as politics (Machiavelli is especially valuable) and end up being able to play the bean-counting and anti-personnel departments on an even playing field.

University of London (http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/prospective_students/undergraduate/lse/econ_mngt/index.shtml)

bala_murali

5th Jul 2010, 20:49

hi there YOTH

I am planing to do my AME course in Kingston or Glamorgan university . I am from India. i have already finished my bachelors degree in the field of electrical and electronics engineering . I have worked with dell computers for 2 years. I was always interested in the field of aviation finally decided to do my AME abroad. i don't know much about the field of aviation and there is no one to guide me to . My doubt is since i already have a bachelors degree ,would it be better for me if i just do a diploma in aircraft maintenance engineering or is it better that i do another degree ( BSC{hons}) in AME.Also would like to know which would be the best place in term of job prospects to do an AME. Hopin your vast experience in aviation would be able to guide me .. Thank you for your time .

jethrotull

5th Jul 2010, 22:04

@Bala Murali,
unsolicited advice, IMO, i would suggest you apply for a job as a technician with any of the pvt airlines in India or MROs.
Rack up (gain) your minimum experience to appear for the Indian DGCA exams. You should be able to get thru considering you have a degree in Electronics and Electrical Engg.

As Yoth mentioned, there is no substitute to hand skills. As a Avionics technician you will be in a position to appreciatiate the application of the theoratical knowledge. If given an option, seek a placement in the Heavy maintenance or hangar based positions. There are MROs coming up in Trivandrum, Hyderabad and Bangalore. The money won't be great to start with however as compared to spending close to £30k over 2yrs in UK chasing a degree in an industry on the decline in UK and EU, you could be half way thru to gaining your Indian AME lic with the possibility of working in what will IMO be the largest MRO country in the world. Middle-East, Singapore, Malaysia have a large number of Indians working in their MRO industries.

Alternatively apply for a opening with ROLLSROYCE, GE, BOEING or AIRBUS. These aerospace giants have significant works @ Bangalore especially GE.

bala_murali

6th Jul 2010, 19:45

Hi there Jethrotull. Thanks for you reply.One of the reason of i chose a degree bath is because i have not got much clue about AME's.I did finish my electrical and electronics engineering . In my engineering there where many mechanical subjects also,i seem to like those subjects better than the electronics subject that i study . Do tell you frankly i find electronics subjects very dry . In my AME also i would like to pursue the mechanical line than compared to avionics lines.I though if i do a degree in AME i would know the insides of the aviation industry much more than what i do right now.I do have 2 years work experience in Dell computers . The job experience is not in anyway connected to the UG degree that i did.So i though in order for me to enter the field of aviation i need to do something related to aviation first of all! DO CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG ? Would like to know how the course works. What happens when i finish a degree course with good scores.Will i be able to get a good job if i do my AME in Universities like kingstone, glamorgan,bristol .Do big companies come to campus interviews to these colleges.Or do i have to do a self paid type rating course once i finish the degree. i do know that right now the aviation market especially in UK is very bad. By end of 2012 by the time i graduate the market wont it be better??

Since i already have a degree would it be better if i just do a diploma course in AME in canada which would be much cheaper. AME Training in Canada - Aviation School, Pilot Training in India, Commercial Pilot Training, Commerical Pilot License, Sunsea, Pilot Training in Australia, Pilot Training in USA, Flight Training, Sunsea Aviation, Best Flying School, Pilot Training i (http://www.sunsea.in/canada_ame_package.asp?s=RRC) . The link of the above college i sent you offers a 29 month industrial training also .Would it be a better choice? Whats the difference in doing a diploma or a degree in AME considering job prospects??
THANKYOU FOR YOUR TIME Jethrotull!!

gizmofreak

8th Jul 2010, 03:47

@Bala Murali,

i have done my ame course in india. To become an AME all you need is a LICENSE... Degree, diploma's are all next to useless. Why don't u just stick to your field brother coz here getting OJT (On Job Training) only was a big pain my arse. Coz here all the companies wanted only reccomdations none of them checked my semester marks and in depth manymore politics goes on.. :(

jethrotull

8th Jul 2010, 14:48

If you have the funding and time, go for a course anywhere UK, CANADA or AUS however bear in mind you are not going to be any better off than a guy without a similar course certificate but the same licence as you.

bala_murali

8th Jul 2010, 17:30

Hi there gizmo.I though of what you said alot of times given the hurdles in aviation .i many be very safe in the current field that i am at now, but never in my life will i get the job satisfaction. Till now i haven't any got any positive feedback about AME from anyone but got to take some risk . i want that risk to be a calculated one not a foolish one.So of the lot let me know where would it be a good gamble to do my AME course. Aint OJT's possible even if we join the Kingston or the Glamorgan ?? Let me know .Where are you planing to go ?? May be i could join you there !!!

turbinewhine

12th Aug 2010, 16:29

@ BALA : I have completed my ame course as well as my diploma in mechanical engg. The words you typed on top reminded me of exactly how i was when i hoined the AME course after i had completed my diploma . I had an option of doing my degree and choose the AME course . I thought exactly like u that i will go through all the hurdles and join AME n i will get a job in this field . 3 years later , now i so regrett taking this course i struggled day in and out for a training to no avail. In INDIA it doesnt matter wether u did ur course from the top most college in the world or how many licences uve cleared , all that matters to get a job is what contacts u have in the industry . I stood first in my entire bactch of 60 student but till today not even 1 person has even looked at my marks card not one person has called me even for an interview .

I have applied in all the companies u can imagine but not even a single mail or call. I know of people who dont even know head o tail o what an aircraft is but with a ministers recommendation theve got a job even without an interview . All the interviews happen internally and no one comes to know what happened when . I love planes so dearly BALA but in this corroupt country that is not what they require . I swear u will be shocked when u enter this field and see the thousands of students who have not even attended interviews till now and are jobless since the past 3 years or so . Wether u study from uk usa austalia wherever , if u dont have a contact n money to shell through ur nose as a bribe to the hr dept , u can place that AME certificate in ur briefcase n leave it to rott . That is what the state of my certificate is now . Ask any student in india who has done their AME wether they regret doing this course and ill throw u a 1000 dollar bill if even one person says NO.

Believe me bala today ur saying ull make it some how , 3 years latter ull be typing the same thing as i am right now thinking that i should have done that degree . 1000DS of kid here are jobless n im tell u that not 1 single guy since my 3 bathes senior has got a job until now . all are at home regretting . Plz take my advice Indias aviation sector is so corrupt ull never stand a chance 3 yrs later all ull do is running pillar to post to no avail . I did the mistake u dont do it .. take care :ugh:

Phalconphixer

12th Aug 2010, 19:29

From practical experience of forty years in the aviation maintenance game, the only degree worth anything at all is one in bean counting...accountancy or one of the associated financial areas or marketing...
Look at the senior management of any big company and you will not find an engineering degree anywhere.
So you are going to blow £3000 on a degree course which really has no relevance; you will be screwed by the bean counters just as much as, and just the same as those without a degree but with a lifetime experience of hands-on...
Maybe with a major aircraft manufacturer such as Airbus, Boeing or Dassault a degree will carry some clout and indeed maybe a pre-requisite, but for aircraft maintenance all it's worth are the letters after your name...

pp

Dodo56

16th Aug 2010, 13:27

MartinCh

17th Aug 2010, 18:51

Bala,

you're not likely to get much OJT doing Bristol/Glamorgan course, unless you're sponsored by a specific company. Sure, some Malaysians are already working on aircraft during summer, getting the required work experience little by little, now that it's holidays, then back late Sept for second year (Glamorgan/Barry).

I'm kinda disappointed regarding the practical training. Sure, bit of basic skills, but no live aircraft, no serious playing about, just couple small things.
Had I been young, I'd have no doubt regarding modern apprenticeship.
That is, knowing what I know now or past year or two and if I were raised in the UK.

I could get some work experience on GA piston stuff if I had time, either in UK or elsewhere in Europe, but for the purposes of B1.1, ehrm, it'd be tough to get over the Catch-22, never mind making ends meet if getting unpaid work experience.
Although, recent UK regulations/employment law changes suggest unpaid work experience will be thing of past soon - at least NMW.

BTW, Glamorgan now have J31 on the campus, but so far advertising for staff before I left for summer, while there are many experienced Barry staff who possibly could help out with some hands on training (although not as FT, obviously). So far it's been only useful for the news on UoG website. I can't see how students would get enough hours of useful training each, during academic year either.

Genghis the Engineer

18th Aug 2010, 13:36

It's been said again and again. If you want to design aircraft and components, do a degree. If you want to work as an aircraft mechanic do an apprenticeship.

Forget dreams of doing a degree and walking into a maintenance job. It simply doesn't happen - not within EASA anyway. The degrees may offer a way through the taught/academic parts of the qualification but without the 5 years hands on experience they are worthless. I get several applications a week from people who have done the degree and can't get anywhere to do the hands-on time. We can't handle more than we are doing, and I think there are a lot of people wasting a lot of time and money because they don't understand how the process works.

I agree completely.

Both routes of education and training are tough and valuable, but they are united by very little more than the words "aeroplane" and "engineering" - the skill sets are very different, and even the emphasis of the educational components of the apprenticeship/LAME course is very different to those of a degree.

Anybody coming to the end of the education phase of either route into engineering is looking at almost starting again to switch their career path into the other.

That said, people who have a good handle on both, are rare and valuable creatures.

G

NutLoose

18th Aug 2010, 23:05

Vortechs Jenerator (http://www.pprune.org/members/200500-vortechs-jenerator)

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK
Age: 43
Posts: 143

I got my C license on all my types because I was clearing SMICRS on Base checks already for a few years when I chopped in my BCAR A&C for a full B1 when I passed the restriction modules and had the necessary experience requirements a few years backhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

Oddly enough I retained my BCAR A&C licences as they are FREE and renewed Bi annually, but as you hold an EASA licence, the CAA issue the BCAR one for free.......... Stupid idea though shifting it to two years, would have been both cheaper for them and easier for me to remember if they had kept them both at 5 years.

I looked on it as every little bit helps and I can still use my BCAR ones if needed on some of the exotica. Though I would have lost my "Nominated Engineer " Approval when we did not renew our BCAR approvals, I have my C under EASA, so if needed I should be able to get that back..

chimera

20th Aug 2010, 09:53

Hi all, i'm new here...
I have searched the internet thousands of times and now almost feel like giving up coz the searches didn't reveal much.
I am planing to do an aircraft maintenance course but the best 1 in the country (except for srilankan airlines AMT course which is another story) offers B1.2 licence.
will i be able to become a qualified aircraft maintenance engineer with the first step being B1.2 license??
will it be hard to get employed as a technician??
will the route be more harder this way??

PLZ guys i really need ADVICE