Red Arrows On The Move!!

[The Nip]

See link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7193569.stm

[Union Jack]

"They may move but we haven't decided the best location for them at the moment but they will be staying in Lincolnshire, I would hope." - BBC News

Sounds like confirmation of the rumour that their Airships were asked to go on a course on decision-making but couldn't make up their minds whether to go or not ....:)

Jack

[airborne_artist]

"They may move but we haven't decided the best location for them at the moment but they will be staying in Lincolnshire, I would hope."




This kind of answer has a name - it's called a definite maybe.

Lucky the Airships don't have to choose which tie to wear to work each day unless they work in MoD Main, of course, in which case how do they manage?

[Roland Pulfrew]

Just a thought

but they will be staying in Lincolnshire

Surely that means Waddington, Cranwell or Coningsby. Cranwell is one of the busiest training bases in the country and the runway is a bit short so that rules that out. Didn't the RAF move the Reds from Marham because they were incompatible with an operational station so that rules out Cby and Waddo. Where are they going? Humberside?

[Navy_Adversary]

and I thought that the Sparrows used to be based at Cranners:8

[TheInquisitor]

They were. Mid-90s.

[Wensleydale]

The pilots in charge think Leeming IS in Lincolnshire!

Seriously though, the Reds will move to Leeming as the closest base to the heartland of nu Labour where they can be sponsored by the newly nationalised bank of Northern Rock. They can then have the name emblazoned across their aircraft to replace the cr@ppy logo that they currently have. (Will the new bank's logo change to a wonky "N"?).

I've also heard that Kevin Kegan will be the new manager.......

[Avtur]

Waddo is hardly an "operational" airfield: The only operational aircraft at Waddo is usually deployed on ops in the Middle East. As for the other two non-operational aircraft, one normally sits on the pan doing very little, and the others are usually deployed on non-operational, money-wasting exercises; assuming that the runway was dry and there was no wind for them to depart.

The main traffic at Waddo is the Cranwell lot and the occasional random noise generator from Conningsby. I think the Reds will be making waddo their home at some point as D313 will still remain and be a v quick transit for them.

[SirToppamHat]

He said the unit were a "complex operation to run" because they needed to practice three times a day when preparing for a touring season.

Try doubling that.

"What we're doing is looking at the most appropriate base for the Red Arrows."

For most appropriate, read cheapest. They are already at the most appropriate base based on their requirements.

STH

[Winco]

Come on chaps, you should know the way it works by now!!!

Every year, some bright civil serpant offers up the Reds as a cost cutting measure and we then spend the next few weeks debating it on PPrune.

Just forget it - they have nowhere else to go that is safe and has a big chunk of free airspace, like 313.

[Something witty]

May I hazard a prediction?

Reds move to Waddo for reasons above, D313 retained for practice - Reasonable enough.

Scampton (recent big spend on stuff wasn't there?) accom deemed unfit for asylum seekers* and so knocked down and re-built at MoD expense, then sold off cheap to Department for Scroungers and Spongers who house aformentioned 'disadvantaged' folk for six weeks before they get the Reds and D313 removed by some unaccountable european court because they dont like the noise and it breaches their human rights as well as offending their sense of (insert foreign thing)ness having the RAF rubbing Britishness in their faces...

I hope I'm wrong.

* edited to add: here I mean the 'asylum seekers' ie the spongers as opposed to the kind genuinely fleeing persecution who would be grateful for our offer of security and protection.

[Green Flash]

Any reason why (if moved to 'XE) the sparras can't practise over Pongoland to the NW or the North Yorks Moors to the East, both quick transits?

[LFFC]

witty,

Reds move to Waddo for reasons above, D313 retained for practice - Reasonable enough.

I'm not sure about your logic. How would the MOD save money if it retained D313? I can't see anyone wanting to buy Scampton if it still had an active danger area over the top of it.

G Flash,

Extra fuel burn in the transit?

[Green Flash]

LFFC

Wouldn't have thought so. Catterick/Wathgill is about 10 miles, the NYM about 12-15. Just enough time to get joined up before pulling into the first loop!

[Gainesy]

As BAe keeps renting them for overseas sales tours, send 'em to Warton.:E

[Green Flash]

Gainesy - now there's a thought!:ok:

[Something witty]

LFFC,

Fair point, although you could keep scampton for other RAF/Army use (avoiding the noise problem) and allow the aviation infrastructure to be run down (no requirement to maintain runways etc, can move ATC / ops types to fill gaps elsewhere etc. Less saving admittedly (a worthless saving IMHO given the loss of a decent base etc) but when bean counters can see savings when all we see is increased costs shifted around budgets then surely its a possible!

...and meant to also say - where else could Reds practice? Bad enough having a role demo practice once in a while at our place but no way could they realisticaly practice at another location... unless you cut corners on hours practiced etc - a bad idea all round.

[aw ditor]

Back to Little Rissington then!

[footster]

Whats wrong with St Mawgan thats doin nothing and CCC will make a flop of the civil side

[Bertie Thruster]

The only operational aircraft at Waddo is usually deployed on ops in the Middle East.

:(


I know we are not military but we are operational out of Waddo! (At least 3 sorties per day on average, 365 days a year.) :ok:

[LFFC]

footster,

Do you mean Newquay Cornwall Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newquay_Cornwall_International_Airport#Withdrawal_of_the_RAF )?

[Background Noise]

Isn't it R313 rather than D.

Didn't they have this problem at Cranwell - very difficult for corporate PR visits (which is what it's all about) to visit the team HQ and see the display if it's not all co-located.

[Tim McLelland]

Think I'm still putting my money on Leeming. I asked some of the RAFAT people about this last year and they said all the gossip about Leeming being unsuitable because of airspace/traffic etc., wasn't true. They said there'd be no problem making a transit back to Scampton to practice if necessary.

Lincolnshire? Go back to Cranwell? Surely even the MoD aren't that crazy. Coningsby? No chance, so Waddington is the only option. I guess they could be managed within the limited amount of traffic there but what about servicing, domestic and admin stuff? Not much room for that I fear. Oh well, when Sir Glenn says Lincolnshire, that's probably a good sign that they'll end up in Yorkshire. Or maybe he's thinking about Barkston Heath?!

[Rigger1]

If they went to Leeming, why transit to Scampton for 3 practices a day Dishforth is very close and very quiet, would impress everyone on the A1 as well, so extra publicity factor.

[LFFC]

BN: "Isn't it R313 rather than D".


Sorry BN, my mistake. I haven't been to that part of the world for a long time now; I just picked up "D313" from another post.

I suppose the area designation does illustrate how disruptive the Reds would be to an airfield's normal operations. I expect that's why they moved away from Cranwell a few years ago. Wouldn't surprise me if they moved back there! :ugh:

[Mad_Mark]

If they went to Leeming, why transit to Scampton for 3 practices a day Dishforth is very close and very quiet, would impress everyone on the A1 as well, so extra publicity factor.

And more crashes due to drivers being distracted!

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Rigger1]

On the insurance claim "well I was driving along the A1 in North Yorkshire, doing 85, watching the Reds in diamond nine, when I piled into several other drivers doing the same thing, as such I want to claim a against the RAF".

Not our fault civvies can't drive, and what about the A15 at Scampton, I wonder if the drivers on there were considered before the Red's moved back.

The sad thing is we / the red's probably would be held responsible and have to pay out millions, that's Dishforth out for practicing, or anywhere with a major road nearby!

[Ivan Rogov]

Mad Mark is spot on. I nearly crashed in the mid 90's driving to Waddington. It was a cold and frosty morning, just passed Sleaford and the Reds came over low returning from a practice, I failed to notice the stationary traffic near Leasingham and locked up for 100 yards or more, stopped with a couple of feet to spare :\
When they were at Cranwell the 3 practices a day were a major pain for any other sorties, nothing else was allowed to move for 15? mins before departure or after return. I think ATC had to work quite hard too with such a mixed circuit, not to mention the noise as they all taxied past the Mess. Not a dig at the Team, just an observation of how difficult it is to integrate them into a daily flypro at a base with another role, there was a plus side, they did a "practice" over Cranwell for our Graduation, which was greatly appreciated :ok:

[RAFEmployee]

What would happen to scampton then?
Sell another bit of land to the home office and make people redundant

[ZH875]

I suppose the area designation does illustrate how disruptive the Reds would be to an airfield's normal operations. I expect that's why they moved away from Cranwell a few years ago. Wouldn't surprise me if they moved back there! :ugh:


IIRC they moved out of RAF Cranwell when RAF Finningley moved into Cranwell, and there was not enough room for everybody, so the Reds went back to Scampton.

[Tim McLelland]

Scampton will be abandoned sooner or later - seems to be as clear as anything can be. Would have gone long ago if it wasn't so expensive for the MoD to get rid of it. In an ideal world I suspect the MoD would quite like to leave the Reds at Scampton until the Hawks run out of hours, then the team and the base can be disposed-of at a stroke without anyone raising an eyebrow. But you get the impression they're way too keen to get rid of Scampton sooner rather than later. One wonders where HHA will go if they're abandoned and left with an empty airfield to pay for.

[Never Alert]

Hmmm, no other units at Scampton other than the Reds Tim??

I grabbed a pax trip last week & whilst sitting around waiting, I spent some time chatting to the lads about a possible move.

Leeming is not at the top of the list as the transits WOULD have an impact on the trg. Last week was a good example actually, no flying am due to crappy wx however, they crammed in plenty during the afternoon & could not have done that if transiting to and from LI.

I'm glad you are so clear cut about the future of Scampton Tim, perhaps you could ring up our CO & give him the good news (assuming you can qualify your statement) as right now, nobody who actually works here has a clue.:ugh:

[Vulcannav]

The BBC news item on the Reds move, shown last week, was old footage!
Do not believe all the media reports - well known for upping the anti! The saga of where to base the Reds has been rolling on for over 2 years and will undoubtedly be resolved,finally, when the government announce the results of the next Spending Review in April. So let's all sit tight and hope common sense will prevail. Keep the Reds at Scampton!

[STANDTO]

You are still welcome at Jurby, Lads :ok:

[SPIT]

As someone suggested WARTON, why can't they practice over the Irish Sea they do so over the Med. Perhaps the Irish Sea area is not sunny enough for them so they can't have their BBQs.:mad::mad::D

[Ivan Rogov]

Not sure about the airspace issues over the Irish Sea, it can get busy. Wouldn't it be a big problem with no display line and limited/poor references? Plus point is I wouldn't almost crash my car watching them fly over the A15 :ok:

[Yashin]

How about Lossie or Kinloss? Lots of airspace up there and only the sheep to complain. Would it upset all of the chaps and chapesses who will not be able to shop at Harvey Nicks or John Lewis' and who will have to mix with real aircrew who are smelly and unkempt (talking about Lossie here not Kinloss!)?

Alternatively...........See what PR08 kicks out. The loss of a Sqn or 2, a reduction in capability or the retention of a bunch of shiney jets that make pretty patterns in the air?

Wise up guys, we need kit, we need aircraft, we need better accommodation. We do not need an aerobatic team!

[Rigger1]

Is Boscombe that busy? or is it too close to civvie traffic?
or Coltishall? Would give the asylum seekers something to watch.

[Never Alert]

Yashin,

that's a very narrow minded and bitter view of the Red Arrows.

Firstly, they cost as puny £5million per annum. Any overseas trips are heavily sponsored and cost the MoD very little.

Secondly, if we did bin the team, the money saved would NOT end up in the RAF purse.

The team contributes massively to recruitment (fact) and let's face it, the recruits are not exactly pouring into the AFCOs at the moment.

We are fighting 2 unpopular wars and with that in mind, we need to be showing off the other side of the RAF. The Reds do that very well & you will be hard pressed to find a member of the public who will speak badly of them. They are the focus of the team, not us.

Working at Scampton, I see the reds every day and like it or not, the public love them.

Personally, I hope the Red Arrows are never disbanded, we have very little to show joe public these days.

[ZH875]

What is needed is a showcase military establishment, to capture Joe Public's imagination, and please as many people as possible.

Instead of Gordon Brown giving China and India (2 fast growing economies and both nuclear equipped countries) £50 Million and £825 Million, spend that money rebuilding RAF Scampton and create a military base to be proud of.

Keep the Red Arrows there, move the BBMF to Scampton, and any other military display team (of any kind) that can be sensibly moved there.

Create an Armed Forces Recruitment Information Centre, where anybody who wishes to join any arm of the forces, can visit and see what is on offer, and maybe even spend a week there, in a typical service accommodation block, where they can sample service life, and get a better picture of what military life is all about.

This will cost a fair amount of money, but at least it may stop whining PC leftist luvvies saying that recruits are not correctly informed what life in the Armed Forces contains, it may even gain more recruits.

Better still, as I hate both the Reds and RAF Scampton, get rid of them both.

[harrogate]

What about being based at Leeming and training over Topcliffe or Fenton?

With regards the drivers watching the Reds on the A1 if they trained at Leeming, I stopped for a sandwich at Scampton last year and was conveniently in the right place at the right time for the Red's Families Day display. Not a word of a lie, exactly in time with the first (very) low pass over the A15 of their routine, there was an almighty car crash and the road was closed for over a day.

Maybe just a conicidence and cetainly not laying the blame at the door of the Reds, but it's not unreasonable to assume they might have been a factor.

[KENNYR]

I know.......paint them in desert camouflage, fit some weapons pods and base them in Kandahar to provide close in ground attack support. Much better use of the taxpayers money.:ok:

[XV208 SNOOPY]

Moving BBMF here was looked at a (large) number of years ago, but, being on the Licoln Edge, the wind factor was thought to be too much for the narrow legged spits. XC has a lower wind factor, so they stayed there.

As for the state of SCA, well there is some minor works services going on, but it mainly has to be cost neutral, or essential for H&S reasons. As others have said, the RAF is skint.

This location suits RAFAT for a large number of reasons, and a number of studdies has backed this argument. Relocation would not be an issue if it was not for one major item. The runway. It was patched up around the time CFS moved here many moons ago from Leeming, and was lifed at around 10 years or so. Now many years after it's use by date, the same make do and mend is having to make do.
:ugh::rolleyes:

Remember the bean counters always wins the argument, even when the blindingly obvious indicates other wise!:ugh::ugh:

[Yashin]

Kenny, I agree!

Where is the proof that they are an incentive to recruitment?

More jets in theatre please!

[Bertie Thruster]

Last week the "NAAFI Wagon Lady" (or rather the modern Waddo equivalent)
told me the Reds were definitely coming to Waddington.

So it must be true!

[Grey'npointy]

How about putting them into Valley?

Before all current and budding Reds howl their discontent too loudly, stop for a mo and have a think. Hawk MOB, no major roads immediately next to camp, the base is established and able to cope with the traffic - they could be based in the former AGWOEU set-up. If the FTS wanted to keep their airfield they could use Mona to practise and have it sterile for the duration of each launch, with a simple bingo+10 for other players. According to the met men, the Valley 'weather factor' is one of the best in the UK. Sorted!

Housing not a problem - there are loads of palacial empty quarters up by top-shops for the chaps to reside in.

Another bonus - the modern, PC RAF could put a green pinstripe down the white bit on the fuselage, stick a dragon on the tail and slightly amend the logo to say either "Royal Air Force, See" or "Royal Air Force, Boyo". That'd keep everyone happy.

[Jobza Guddun]

Tidy!

Why not Leeming? There must be loads of disused airfields out of the way up there they could use as a practice site? Doesn't HAVE to be an active airfield if the transit isn't far, does it?

JG

[Lossie23]

Waddington could make sense. Fairly quiet airfield in terms of movements with only the E-3s, Nimrod R.1s and Sentinels based there. Plus, a fairly short transit and they could use the Scampton overhead for training as they do currently.

[Bertie Thruster]

only the E-3s, Nimrod R.1s and Sentinels

...and 1200+ sorties/year from resident helo :)