Harriers are Rubbish

[Piggies]

.......It says so in the Eastern Daily Press.

http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBrand=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED11%20Jan%202008%2022%3A00%3A09%3A367

“They found the Harriers didn't do very well in Afghanistan because they cannot strafe.”

I'm no Harrier man, but what a load of arse.

Some 'expert'

[Lamenting Navigator]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.... b:mad:y journalists!!

[glad rag]

Well, yes actually, they are Rubbish, slowed from the original spec by ??kts, big winged, wider intake'd, but still manned and flown by bloody hero's. Yeah Mr J ourno you really are on the ball.

[minigundiplomat]

Poor journalism!


Harriers are Rubbish


It's not exactly news, is it? He should be looking for the next story!

[L J R]

....and the piccie in the story is of a 12 SQN Jet (from Lossiemouth I believe). Strange seems the story is aimed at the Marham Wing 'saving the day'.

[muppetofthenorth]

Just be grateful it isn't a picture of an F3!

[Archimedes]

If the GR4 upgrade is going to allow the aircraft to 'strafe the ground with fire', does this mean that a flamethrower is going to be fitted? :confused:

[clicker]

Are there 104 Tornados at Marham?

Seems a rather high number for the four squadrons there.

[peppermint_jam]

My best mate is a Marine Commando and he got back from a 6-7 month tour of Afghan last year, when I met up with him for a few beers after his return I asked him what it had been like, his reply;

"S&*t mate, the worst I've ever seen, lost some good friends and soldiers, was massively impressed with the Harriers though, they saved our asses loads."

I think I'll take the word of a front line Soldier over the clowns at the EDP any day of the week.

[Al R]

Although my experiences are quite a few years out of date now, working with Harrier in the CAS role in FRY always bought a relieved smile to our faces. By far and away the most effective platform and the best 'can do' attitude too.

[LowObservable]

OK, the story is a bit simplistic...

... and the ID of "Roger Smith" as a "defence expert" is sloppy...

.. but the premise that the Tonkas are valued for CAS in part because they have a working gun, which the Harrier does not, it not incorrect.

[BigBusDriver]

OK, here is a question from a civilian: Since a guns seems a valuable asset in the CAS environment, and since the Harriers are doing an awful lot in this environment, is it not possible to either a) fit 30mm Adens to the GR.7/9, or b) fit the US GAU25 system to the GR.7/9?

Is this a technical issue or simply a lack of will and/or money? (Though I would think that if you cant afford a half dozen guns you probably shouldnt be sending people off to war.)

[Double Zero]

The question of why the **** don't we fit a 30mm Aden - or even an off the shelf pylon mounted gunpod ( with relevant quite simple test range trials, & if one wants to be fussy a bit of new weapon aiming HUD software too ) has been asked long ago, and no doubt continues to be so ' in theatre ' !

Put the aircraft name into a search engine, select 'history' then scroll down to 'Harrier Testing'.

I suppose rockets ( and we were openly told the UK had an embarassingly large stockpile soon to time-expire ) look impressive to politicians...

[Pontius Navigator]

OK, here is a question from a civilian: Since a guns seems a valuable asset in the CAS environment, and since the Harriers are doing an awful lot in this environment, is it not possible to either a) fit 30mm Adens to the GR.7/9, or b) fit the US GAU25 system to the GR.7/9?

Or even put an aircraft in theatre that has a gun NOW rather than wait until the Tiffy is ready in months time.

[Cyclone733]

If anyone wants to pay me to be an "aviation expert" I've read some of the following thread so I must be over qualified?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=306952

[MarkD]

Does Harrier have flight profiles more favourable to CAS than Tornado or Typhoon? If so, is a gun the most important consideration in terms of getting the job done in the most frequent CAS scenarios?

[Pontius Navigator]

Does Harrier have flight profiles more favourable to CAS than Tornado or Typhoon? If so, is a gun the most important consideration in terms of getting the job done in the most frequent CAS scenarios?

From what I have seen the flight profiles for RAF CAS are virtually the same and are based on the weapon not the airframe.

The real issue is providing the right weapon for the most appropriate effect on the right target.

Few would argue against a JDAM or a 1000lb bomb on a target a 1000 yards or more from own troops. As the enemy gets closer the likelihood of blue casualties (not blue-on-blue) increases.

An accurate 1000lb bomb 100 yards from own forces will 'fix' the enemy problem but with probably unacceptable collateral damage. That said, it was not unknown for US Forces in contact in Vietnam to call in strikes onto their own positions.

The issue therefore is having the full range of CAS weaponry from big bombs down to little bullets. I don't have the books to hand but there are open source tables that tabulate all this.

[Double Zero]

I reckon the post by ‘ Engines’ on the thread linked to says it all – an informative & helpful contribution, sorry I didn’t thank you at the time.

This still leaves us with the relatively easy possibility of putting 30mm Adens on Harriers – our people need such help, not politicians thinking rocket pods look impressive ( we were told in our day – 1992 ish- that the UK had an embarrassingly large stockpile of these, so were first choice before guns to re-design ).

In the last days of BAe Kingston/Dunsfold there was the much mooted SABA – Small Agile Battlefield Aircraft – a bit like a thinking man’s A-10, but unfortunately without all that aircraft’s resilience !

Having photographed various types of carbon fibre damage, I’m not at all convinced it’s a war – worthy material. For much the same reasoning, I’ll be amazed if the Typhoon ever does any useful C.A.S. – it’s like using a Jaguar E-Type to deliver newspapers !

The SABA was I suspect just a BAe smokescreen while closing factories – but it was a turboprop pusher canard design, with an underslung turret mounted, sensor directed big gun – might be quite handy or even a big seller right now ?!

[Engines]

Double Zero, thank you.

Putting Aden 30 on to the GR7 would not be hard, except for the problem with spent links hitting the tailplane - as for the Aden 25. The other problem is that the Aden 30 round really isn't all that good for CAS work. However, there are other rounds in existence that would really improve it quite a bit.

The Aden 25s might still be around, and would be far better, but the gun pod would need to be fixed (decent ammo feeds).

Simplest route to a good gun would be the US GAU-12 system, but there would be some issues with getting the kit into a GR7/9 - there are some fairly big items that need to go into the aircraft, and in the years since it was a true AV-8B we have put quite a few mods in - but not 'rocket' science to fix.

At the time we had plenty of CRV7s around, and they were definitely preferred to guns - although the rockets were also planned to be disposed of, with no further buys.

The biggest obstacle could well be the reluctance of quite a few senior officers to admit that guns are effective - I well remember that the most frequently quoted rationale for taking them off the GR7 and Typhoon was that 'aircraft like this are too valuable to risk using in the guns/CAS role' - but that was considering a more 'Cold War' threat scenario. This debate still goes on - hence UK indecision as to whether to buy gun pods for our JSFs.

The bigger picture was that when bidding for money, 'precision' and 'smart' were the magic words at the time, and nobody would back buying 'non-precision' and 'dumb' weapons.

Just good to hear that Harriers (along with all our aircraft, fixed and rotary wing) are doing the best they can with what they have - because they are flown and supported by the best crews in the world.

Engines

[Riskman]

There is some well-informed comment about CAS and guns on this thread

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=306952

And Harriers are fantastic! 6 years well spent for me:D

[Bootneck]

There are a heap of guys who survived the Falklands Campaign because of the skill and bravery of the crews added to the technical abilities of the Harrier. Perhaps the Journo should consider doing two things; get his backside in one, then print a retraction, secondly educate himself by reading Sharky Wards book,

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sea-Harrier-Over-Falklands-Paperbacks/dp/0304355429

Donations to a charity should ensue. :)

[Archimedes]

He should read Jerry Pook's Harrier Ground Attack Falklands and Dave Morgan's In Hostile Skies before the good Cdr Ward's book, otherwise he might believe some of the er.... interesting interpretations contained in SHAR over the Falklands and induce more hoots of contempt from contributors to this board when he prints slightly doubtful observations as matters of fact. :}

[Phil_R]

I would be interested to hear how the precision bombing capability can be improved on an aircraft which can already carry JDAM and Paveway 3 which - we were told - can put a bomb through the average suburban house's front door.

Now yes I know it won't quite do that but...

[WolvoWill]

Upgrading only 104 airframes - weren't there 142 Tornados brought up to the GR4 spec?

Obviously some have been lost in accidents (I can think of at least 2, but someone will know the numbers), one is a BAE test aircraft, and some may even have been reduced to hangar queens in the quest for spares and have been cannibalised beyond economical repair, but can't believe 38 have 'gone' through these. Some retirements due soon or will they not bother upgrading all the fleet for cost reasons?

As for what weapons capability it will add, I'm intrigued - Paveway IV in its 500lb form would be most welcome as the current weapons used are a bit on the heavy side, risking collateral damage, apart from which only carrying a single weapon when toting a targetting pod is somewhat limited compared to some other coalition aircraft)

GR4 with Litening III and say 6 or 4 Paveway IVs (loaded side by side on double racks) would be an excellent CAS platform I'd say, though saying that not sure if you could get 6 onto the aircraft - not a weight issue, but a length one!

[insty66]

Perhaps some were already upgraded?

or

Perhaps that's what the RAF say they will need to cope with current and possible future tasks?

or

Perhaps that's all we can afford?

[peppermint_jam]

Wolvowill

I don't think they send the trainer fleet to war, that should make your numbers up mate.