What is the standard price usually for a PPL(H)? [Archive]

Whirlygig

7th Jan 2008, 06:31

Back on thread (ish).

Whitus1, getting a PPL(H) abroad is an option although, full-time, I would allow 6 weeks for contingencies. If you get a JAA licence abroad, then I would recommend passing all the exams here before you go. If you get a foreign licence abroad, don't forget to add the costs of conversion to a JAA licence when you get back home.

As for the economics of costs ....

Average annual UK wage £23,764 with average of 28 days paid leave.
Average house price (small terraced house - you don't have those in the States!) £183,500
Petrol per litre £1.04
Beer £3.00
Basic rate of income tax 22%
Higher rate (income over ~ £40,000) 40%
National insurance 11%

I can't even begin to explain how this all pieces together to produce the general higher costs of living we experience in the UK but I would suspect that the basic crux is the cost of land.

Also bear in mind that our CAA is self-funded with no government subsidy as in the US.

The £300 I quoted is the cost of a 300CBi (which is a cheaper machine to run that a C) from a well run and reputable school. They do make a profit but a very, very tiny one!!!

Hope that helps.

Cheers

Whirls

Pandalet

7th Jan 2008, 08:46

Training in a R22 will set you back around £260 inc VAT per hour, depending on how close to London you are. You can generally get a (very small) discount for paying chunks up front, but this generally isn't recommended, as it ties you to a specific school and their financial health (schools do go bust from time to time).

manfromuncle

7th Jan 2008, 09:12

Don't forget that the CAA don't actually want people to become GA pilots and they certainly don't want people flying helicopters, hence they make it extremely expensive.

Whirlygig

7th Jan 2008, 10:35

That sounds as thought the CAA have actually given some thought to it. I'm not sure they even consider helicopters when they invent their daft rules and training regimes!

Cheers

Whirls

jollyjoe

7th Jan 2008, 11:28

I read a worrying article in Pilot magazine this month, regarding a change to the rule which allows equal rights to all users. Seems the CAA are in for chooper pilots after all.

Back on subject... i did some hours at Redhill in Surrey in an R22. It was nearly £300 per hour including landing fees and VAT etc. So i decided to gather the licence money togther and buy my own chopper.

Alternatively, you could go abroad. I did some hours in Long Beach California. Fabulous! Cheap and great weather. BUT, you'll find it very difficult to self fly hire here in UK if you do this. Apparently, the radio is very different and air law here in UK is much more strict. You will at least have to do some test flights back here and perhaps redo some tests.

Basically its a minefield. Dont take one persons view as gospel. Ask, ask and ask again. Do your research - this is the most important thing.

Good Luck!

KNIEVEL77

7th Jan 2008, 20:45

55-60 Hours, wow is it going to take that long?

My Helicopter Training School reckon it should take only 45 hours, I know that is the minimum anyway but is your 55-60 more realistic or are you just covering yourself!

Better tell me now as I haven't budgeted for those extra hours!!!!!

Thanks.

kiwi chick

7th Jan 2008, 20:51

Don't bank on the minimum hours unless:

You've very talented - and they would have picked that up by now.
You've already got a CPL Fixed Wing.

Nothing like Eternal Optimism when they're not the ones paying for it!

Whirls will be able to give you a better idea as an Instructor, I'm just basing it on all the students that were around me. :ok:

KNIEVEL77

7th Jan 2008, 20:57

Very talented.......I wish!

CPL Fixed Wing........No!

Better get saving then!

Whirlygig

7th Jan 2008, 21:43

Thanks Kiwi but I'm not an instructor. Yet! However, Whirlybird is!!!!

55-60-70 is more like it especially as, how can I put this, one gets older!!! I was 38 when I got my PPL(H) in just under 70 hours. And that is not uncommon in my experience.

Sorry, better get saving. It was a bit disingenuous of your local school to quote minimum hours as being the norm.

Cheers

Whirls

KNIEVEL77

7th Jan 2008, 21:54

Ahem...........might have to check it out with them ,maybe I got the wrong end of the runway, sorry, I mean stick!

So thats 70 x £250 = £17,500..............WOW!

Do you find many people that star their PPL(H) then for what ever reason don't complete the course?

Ken Wells

7th Jan 2008, 21:59

I did mine at Denham in 2005; on R22.

Cost with discount £180 an hour. if you buy 20 hour blocks.

I have a BCPL QFI ( now worthless, Thanks *&^% CAA:mad:) although flying fixed for 25 years took 50 hours for PPLH. Pretty average due to weather time and competence etc.

It's alot cheaper than R44 and you only need a 4 hour converstion to the
R44 once you have your Licence.:D

Danny1987

7th Jan 2008, 22:05

i gwt my training in a cessna 152 for £90 per dual hour inclusive of all fees. so i guess thats really good?

KNIEVEL77

7th Jan 2008, 22:27

Why do most people take a PPL(H)?

1 Is it because they always had a boyhood dream of piloting a Helicopter?

2 Is it so they can make a career flying Helicopters?

3 Or is it that they have more money than they no what to do with and use it as a status symbol to say they can fly Helicopters?

For me its number 1 but its obviously not going to be cheap and i'm having trouble at the moment trying to justify the cost............but I don't drink, don't smoke and don't have a family so THAT'S my justification!

Whirlygig

7th Jan 2008, 22:36

People's motives can be varied but your three scenarios probably represent a reasonable spread!

I know, because I did it, if you want something badly enough, you'll find the money!

However, in the long run it would be cheaper to save and learn to fly full time rather than just do, say, an hour a week.

You also need to consider the costs of maintaining the licence and what you want to do with it once you've got it. I have no idea about drop out during a PPL(H) but post-licence, I believe it is quite a high percentage.

Cheers

Whirls

KNIEVEL77

7th Jan 2008, 22:42

According to General Aviation magazine 70% of people who passed their PPL, not sure if this includes the PPL(H), in 2000 did not maintain their licence after year 5, thats a massive drop out!

Having said that, I suppose some people just want to have the satisfaction of passing their PPL(H), gaining their licence and then they'll move onto their next ambition.

KNIEVEL77

7th Jan 2008, 22:45

As regards safety whilst training what are peoples thoughts regarding wearing a Nomex fire proof flight suit bearing in mind it could save ones life if in difficulty...........is this something that a Flying School and other students and pilots would encourage or just laugh at?

Whirlygig

7th Jan 2008, 23:10

Safety is always paramount in flying but ..... in all honesty ... as a trainee PPL in a nomex flying suit, you'd be laughed at. Maybe not to your face but definitely behind your back!!! :}

Wear clothing that covers your limbs and avoid man-made fibres. I cannot think of any incident involving a serious fire and trainee.

Cheers

Whirls

KNIEVEL77

7th Jan 2008, 23:18

Oh thats good to know, so sorry to put a downer on the conversation but what about newly qualified pilots, is there a high number of accidents relating to 'new" pilots or is that not really the case?

kiwi chick

7th Jan 2008, 23:22

Hahaha, I have to agree with Whirls here!!

I wear one for my job and I get enough stick about it - so unless you've got really broad shoulders (which you will have soon from all the hovering practice and slope landings you're about to do...) - I would stick with civvy clothes!

Another thing too is that - over here anyway - it got REALLY bloody hot in that bubble after an hours' intense lesson and you hop out completely drenched - I even gave up on the limb-covering clothes and wore cotton shorts & singlet. :eek:

(As you can imagine, it looked really hot and sexy with my steel-capped boots... :} )

Hope this helps! :ok:

KNIEVEL77

7th Jan 2008, 23:25

Don't think i'll have that problem very often up here in the 'frozen' North!

Ok, finally on the clothing front do you recommend 'steelies' of just any hard wearing boots?

Whirlygig

7th Jan 2008, 23:29

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=277955&highlight=shoes+footwear

And if you really want to start some controversies, ask about gloves!!!!!

Cheers

Whirls

KNIEVEL77

7th Jan 2008, 23:36

I Daren't!!!!!!!!!!!!:=

Ioan

7th Jan 2008, 23:56

i gwt my training in a cessna 152 for £90 per dual hour inclusive of all fees. so i guess thats really good?

:) I got my PPL(A) in an (in)famous place in the US during 2004 for the grand total of approx £4400, including return flights, accomodation and admittedly limited 'holiday' money while I was there.
At the time I thought it was expensive... though at the time I'd never been in a helicopter!
Thinking about it now though, I'd want that much now to get me sat me in a couple of those Cessnas for 45 hours again :eek:

KNIEVEL77

8th Jan 2008, 00:04

Whirlygig, this is all very interesting because if you go to the thread called 'Helicopter down in Yarra River........' they are suggesting wearing both a flightsiut and helmet whilst flying any aircraft, training or not!

kiwi chick

8th Jan 2008, 00:29

Your shoes question?

I wore hard boots sometimes, but I find you need to "feel" the pedals under your feet for those fine-tuned movements you need to make - if you've hovered for more than a minute without covering an entire football field, you'll know what I mean!

Autorotations however? The heavier the right foot, the better... ;)

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x105/kiwiflygirl/PMSL-1.gif

Just experiment and you'll find something you're comfortable with.

Helmets? 50/50 here where I trained. I guess safety is paramount, but if your blade flies off, I'm not sure that a helmet is going to make much difference...

(runs for the door....)

What do you more experiences fellas and fellesses think? If I was working a helo, especially low level stuff, I'd buy a helmet for sure.

Bell 206

8th Jan 2008, 02:23

i have worked/still do in tourism flying helicopters alongside a pilot who always wore a helmet on a tourist flight and he continually got asked - why are you wearing a helment? is this dangerous? where is my helmet??

i wear a helmet all the time when flying "commercial" work, such as low level, surveys, filming, on fires etc. (personally i always were flight suit and gloves no matter what the flying is) :rolleyes:

when it comes to shoes, at the moment where i am working it is a requierment to wear boots nearly 20cm above the ankle, full leather, lace up fire standards.. they get VERY hot and uncomfortable but the reality is that when S*&T hits the fan you would be happy to be very hot in those boots, helmet, suit and gloves...

i will give this advice to people starting out... no matter how much pressure your instructor puts you under - just make sure you are in cotton clothing and enclosed shoes that wont burn!!!!!!!!!:eek: get used to wearing it now you will be thankfull one day!!!:ok:

Whirlygig

8th Jan 2008, 06:21

this is all very interesting because if you go to the thread called 'Helicopter down in Yarra River........' they are suggesting wearing both a flightsiut and helmet whilst flying any aircraft, training or not!

You'll get all sorts of advice on this forum and it's up to you to decide which to take. There are different scenarios and different contexts and some advice is not suitable to be moulded into a "one size fits all" situation.

If you'd feel more comfortable in a Nomex flying suit whilst you're learning to hover, then that's fine - I'm just warning you of the reaction you'll get!

Cheers

Whirls

Whirlybird

8th Jan 2008, 06:55

On hours to PPL(H)....

Almost no-one does it in 45 hours. That is a LEGAL minimum, ie if you're a natural pilot, learning on an intensive course, who has a CPL(A), has been a passenger who's handled the controls many times in a helicopter, has flown radio-controlled models, and drives a JCB or forklift truck for a living (coordination is similar) the CAA won't make you do more than 45 hours!

The national average is 60-70, I think. Haing said that, I do know one or two schools who try to push people through in 45. A few make it, but I personally know of two who did who felt they were rushed and didn't learn enough. I also know an instructor who thinks the legal minimum should be increased to 70 hours, for safety. Budget for 60, and if you do it in less...well, you want to fly after getting your licence, don't you?

On clothing...

It's down to personal choice and relative risk. I don't wear a nomex suit in my car, and I don't in my helicopter. However, if I was flying commercially low level all day, I might think about some kind of protection. But that's me. If you'd rather have extra safety when learning to hover, don't worry who laughs at you. But make sure you're comfortable, whatever you wear, as learning to fly is hard work.

Have fun. :ok:

PPRuNeUser0212

8th Jan 2008, 11:36

KNIEVEL77
have seen your posts on this thread and the "Yarra" thread, would like to add my 2 bobs worth. I'm not a driver but one of those who are either in the left hand seat or in the back and have been unfortunate enough to have been in an accident and these days, I can say is I'm an advocate of helmets and any form of safety equipment available. One reason I survived, was my trusty Alpha helmet, as I head butted the internal winch before going out the door still attached by wander lead. Without the helmet I would have been dead within the first seconds of impact. These day I'll be the one in nomex, boots, gloves, helmet and any form of restraint, preferably a seat belt. Let em have a giggle at you, but you may the one that is still breathing and able to go out and do it all again another day.

LHS

Flyin'ematlast

8th Jan 2008, 12:05

I'm just a low hours PPL(H) but I agree wholeheartedly with Whirls. It's a case of horses for courses. The boys (& girls) who do the most risky stuff and live in the avoid curve :cool: need to wear nomex, gloves, helmet etc but for most of us we are far more likely to be 'broken' in a car crash than driving helo's.

FWIW avoid man made fabrics (have you even melted a nylon boiler suit onto yourself :\) and just wear comfortable clothes.

I agree with kiwi chick though that after an hour of hovering practice in the early stages you'll be drenched in sweat - even in "frozen" Newcastle.

Whatever you wear - go fly and never look back, There's nothing like it!

Ian.

KNIEVEL77

8th Jan 2008, 13:14

Thanks everyone for all of your advice, maybe I will consult the flying school its self and see what they think.

Certainly wearing a nomex flying suit doesn't seem to be any different to wearing a pair of combat trousers and an 'army' shirt except that its joined in the middle so if its going to protect me then why not and Robinson Helicopters supply their own at a very reasonable price!

Many thanks again.

Lost Again

8th Jan 2008, 17:11

Hello KNIEVEL77 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=210109)

your getting lots of good advice - have a bit more

hours - I took about 90 odd hours - this included time that I did not actually need to do ie mountain flying and jollies in a r44 to places such as Goodwood festival of speed, Sandown etc - I treated the learning process as something to enjoy and spent far more than I had ever thought I would - probably 20 hours extra.
(I probably was a poor student as well)
If you have limited funds ensure that you know what the next lesson will cover and review your books and any comments given by your instructors so that you will get the full value from the lesson.
If anyone is learning in a 44 see if you can sit in the back - you can learn alot from someone elses mistakes and it is cheaper.

helmets - I don't wear one but should, been in a fixed wing crash and split my head open - upside down in a full harness bleeding is not fun and it is even worse when the man who rescues you helps you to fall into a ditch full of nettles on the way to the ambulance !

Suits - never worn one and probably never will - I would never take the piss out of anyone who did as it is an individuals decision and I do not think the guinea pig club is taking on new members, I do not know of anyone where I trained who does, although they all stick to sensible clothes and shoes / boots.

My final advice is to use different instuctors, they all have a different approach and you can learn more

regards

Richard

scooter boy

8th Jan 2008, 17:45

"So i decided to gather the licence money together and buy my own chopper"

Amen to that... so did I.
If you can afford it this really represents the best convenience you can buy.
Especially if you have a large shed to keep it in and a big back garden.;)
Training has to be done at a licensed airfield though through a licensed school.

SB

KNIEVEL77

8th Jan 2008, 18:11

Ok chaps, yet more good advice but do you reckon that it really is too much money to spend (bearing in mind that it now seems that I may need double the hours i've actually catered for) on a PPL(H) when I really don't have a plan when I pass other than just taking a helicopter out for the odd day for the fun off it?

Or is it worth every penny non matter what the cost!

Lost again, that would be one of my first outings when I pass, to fly to the Goodwood Festivalof Speed (one of the best events i've ever been to) and the F1 at Silverstone.

Keep your advice coming and sorry to the original poster for 'hijacking' his thread!

Efirmovich

8th Jan 2008, 18:38

" One of the first thing after I pass is to fly to the Festival and the F1 at Silverstone" !!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

Crack On !

E.

KNIEVEL77

8th Jan 2008, 18:41

Efirmovich, not sure I understand your post!!!!

mylesdw

8th Jan 2008, 18:45

K77: As you say, the costs are huge and they certainly don't stop when you get your licence. If you want to take a craft out for the odd day for the fun of it, especially with passengers, I would budget for 1 hour with an instructor every month as well, ongoing. That's not a lot, minimal I would say.

Whirlygig

8th Jan 2008, 18:55

I understand Efirmovich's post. Flying in and out of Silverstone is incredibly demanding flying.

Cheers

Whirls

Efirmovich

8th Jan 2008, 19:01

Sorry K77, I didn't mean to take the Micky but the thought of a fairly new pilot going into Silverstone on race day was daunting !

Happy flying,

E.

KNIEVEL77

8th Jan 2008, 19:02

I thought thats what me meant but wasn't totally sure!

Okay then, maybe our local Croft Circuit might have to do!:hmm:

KNIEVEL77

8th Jan 2008, 23:20

Just one more thing, Rotorheads seems to have quite a few threads regarding helicopter accidents which sort of puts me off going through the training BUT is it just because i'm now looking out for those threads that there seems to be so many of them?

Whirlygig

8th Jan 2008, 23:26

Whenever there is a helicopter accident, it will be discussed here. The vast majority of the pilots here are seasoned professionals and not only want and need to learn (as we all do) from these accidents but some may well have known the pilot.

When you start training, you will be told about the pitfalls and how to avoid them, you will hear some scary stories and some sad stories. There are some pretty unedifying statistics like the average life expectancy of a PPL who flies into cloud is measured in seconds. If you can manage it, a trip to the AAIB in Farnborough is well worth it; very sobering.

Cheers

Whirls

kiwi chick

8th Jan 2008, 23:34

Accidents? Nah - its just like when you're pregnant you suddenly notice pregnant chicks everywhere. :ok:

live in the avoid curve

Nice colloquialism for "Dead Man's Curve" ;)

It seriously really is the most fun you can have fully clothed. Or semi-clothed.

Or I could say... it really is the most fun you can have with a helmet on :E

PS: as an idea on hours (I'm not bragging here, I promise) I did mine in just under 50 hours but I already had a CPL Fixed Wing. And it was bloody hard work at that! So I think 60+ would be a good indication.

KNIEVEL77

8th Jan 2008, 23:50

You mean more fun than driving my Lotus Exige around a Formula 1 track..........and I do that fully clothed with a helmet on too!

kiwi chick

8th Jan 2008, 23:55

Abso-fricken-lutely I do!

Low level practice, flying down a river on a beaut summer's day?

Or landing on top of a freight container to test your skills? (which is REALLY hard when you have an instructor pissing themselves at your attempts!)

Or doing a "confined" approach and landing at a trampers hut right in the middle of a mountain range beside a crystal clear river, surrounded by nature and snow?

Or getting right on the spot when doing a 180 autorotation?

I can't think of much better :ok:

KNIEVEL77

9th Jan 2008, 00:12

You mean better than watching Newcastle United win the Champions League.........do you have 'soccer' in NZ?

Well as i've said somewhere else, I don't drink, take drugs, smoke or have a family, although I am addicted to Ebay, other than having my racing car the only other thing I really want to do is fly helicopters!

I just hope funds don't disappear once i'm half way through my training!

kiwi chick

9th Jan 2008, 00:20

Do we have 'soccer' in New Zealand?! :confused:

David Beckham didn't come over here to play Darts ya wally!! ;)

KNIEVEL77

9th Jan 2008, 00:23

When was that????????

I must have slept through that!!!!!!!

One hundred annnnnnnndddddddd eighty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)

kiwi chick

9th Jan 2008, 00:25

December! My girls were part of the screaming audience at his practice....

They told me he was handsome. ;) And they wanted to know why he took his shirt off. (they're only young.... they have sooo much to learn!)

4ftHover

9th Jan 2008, 07:34

KNIEVEL77

It really depends on whether or not you can afford it. I believe the average is approx 70 - 80 hours ( but i stand corrected on this ).

Then you may wish to take additional training after you get your licence.

I did a 44 conversion straight away and fly once a month with an instructor practising autos and improving general handling.

I found the whole SFH thing quite strange to begin as you really have to have targets to aim for otherwise your flying suffers. I started visiting airfields i knew from my training and cross country and then visited a couple of new ones, gradually flying further.

Carrying passengers is also a whole new ball game. Apart from their nervousness at being a passenger in something like a 22 its their mate/relative etc flying them and they know you've only just qualified.

After 12 months i'm not sure i would tackle something like Silverstone without being accompanied. Its more expensive to have someone sat next to you but you may feel its well worth it !

Enjoy !:ok:

KNIEVEL77

9th Jan 2008, 09:42

Oh no, we are up to 80 hours now, any advance on that.............working it out that totals £20,000............not sure if I can afford that, especially as I don't have any sort of major plan for when I do actually pass!

Whirlygig

9th Jan 2008, 09:51

...and that's not including books and equipment, cost of medicals, exam fees, skills test fee and CAA licence fees. These all mount up as well.

The figures given are realistic; anything else would not be fair. How many hours do you have so far? That might be a guide as to how soon you could pass. You may have a natural aptitude for it or, like most, there will be aspects with which you will struggle.

There are other options; go to the States for a couple of months and learn full-time at a JAA school, return to the UK and just get checked out. However, this is not without its pitfalls and needs to be researched and costed carefully.

As a guide, I did my PPL on a Schweizer 300C (not one of the cheapest trainers) full time in 2003 in the UK. Shortly afterwards, I totted up everything it cost me (including all fees, books, accommodation etc) and I spent just over £21,000.

Cheers

Whirls

Pandalet

9th Jan 2008, 09:52

For what it's worth, I took around 55 hours from scratch, flying once a week, over slightly more than a year. This includes 3 aborted tests (for weather) which include pre-test polish. I've never flown a fixed wing in my life (they make me air-sick, sadly).

You should have some idea of how long you'll need by the time you hit 20 hours or so; if you're really struggling, you should probably budget a bit longer. Also, as has already been pointed out, the more training you can get into a shorter period of time, the less time you'll have to spend re-learning stuff. Flying about an hour every week, I was spending the first chunk of every lesson relearning what was covered last week. If you could fly, say 3 or 4 times a week, you will get through in lower hours - I only did the 1/week plan because that was the most I could afford. To this end, it's probably good idea to save up initially rather than rushing straight in and doing things in dribs and drabs, assuming you can wait that long ;)

4ftHover

9th Jan 2008, 11:33

I spent about the £20K mark so maybe a figure to work around.

There are plenty of people done it in less hours than the average and indeed many who have taken well over 100 hours.

I aimed at one hour a week though towards the end of the course weather played apart and i found it more beneficial ( but alot more expensive ) to have a weekend with 2 or 3 hours training.

Whirlybird

9th Jan 2008, 12:59

There's another way of looking at all this....

What do you do for pleasure/relaxation now? You're not on the breadline, so presumably it costs money. I assume that on at least one day off a week, you go out and have a good time. Maybe it doesn't cost quite as much as an hour's helicopter flying, but it costs. And have you ever worked out what that costs you over a year? I bet you haven't.

So, now assume that you'll do an hour's helicopter flying a week, for around a year. During that day, as well as flying, you'll drive to the airfield, check the weather, learn a bit of theory, chat to people, look at helicopters, etc etc. It'll be a fantastic day which you'll look forward to all week - if it isn't, pack in this whole idea now! And after you've got your PPL(H), you'll do the same thing, although maybe marginally less often, and it'll cost you a tiny bit less per hour. After all, if you're not going to do that, why bother to get a licence.

So, do you have the time, money and inclination for helicopter flying to become a part of your life in this way? If so, why does it matter how many hours it takes you? If not, forget it and go take up golf or something!

KNIEVEL77

9th Jan 2008, 13:45

Whirlybird, you couldn't have put it better.

Not wanting to tell everyone my financial situation of course but i'm a Freelance Television Outside Broadcast Sound Engineer mainly covering sport and football in particular, therefore the pay isn't bad and the hours of work are mainly on a weekend so plenty of time off midweek, presumably the quietest time at a Flying School too?

As mentioned I don't drink, smoke or have a family or any other expensive habits although I do own a racing car but that doesn't cost that much too run.

Having said that I do seem to have an Ebay addiction, I buy 70's toys and F1 Memorabilia and watches for some reason, I just love watches!

However all that is stopping this New Year and my aim is to sell, not buy and i've already got 40 items up for auction!

SO, I definately have the time and inclination and, now that i've stopped wasting my money on Ebay, the finances too!

And you're right, its a hell of a day out!

Oh, and did I mention I live 5 minutes from the Airport!!!! :ok:

Flyin'ematlast

9th Jan 2008, 19:52

I endorse what Pandalet said. It took me 63 hours including the skills test over 2 years (2004 - 2005) as that was the only way I could fit it in and it cost me £16800 all in :ouch:. I could have done it in less time and money if I'd kept to under 9 months and flown twice a week or more.

As for what to do after getting your PPL(H) I aim to fly 15 to 20 hours per year for pleasure (much less in 2007 - bu**er of a year!). I know people who spend more than that on golf or clay shooting!:sad:

Whatever you decide to do - enjoy it!

Ian.

jonnyloove

9th Jan 2008, 20:07

Hi there
Thought I would ask.
Is it not an option to safe up your money and go to some where like the Bristow Academy in Florida and do your PPL. Would that not be cheaper and you could all being well complete the course closer to the 45hrs mark give or take extra hours. I hear they have a good reputation.
Good luck ether way :)

KNIEVEL77

9th Jan 2008, 20:25

Yeah, good point but being Freelance I need to take all of the work that i'm offered to pay for it and as I have plenty of time off during the week and only live 5 minutes from the airport, I doing it locally means I don't have to turn ANY work down whereas I would have to if I travelled abroad to do it!

DennisK

9th Jan 2008, 20:26

Hallo out there ... Perhaps some notes from a fairly experienced FI will help our newcomer heli pilots.

I'm virtually retired from full time instruction now, but checking through my log going back to the mid 1970s, I find I've trained 164 pilots from scratch to the PPL (H) standard. In the early years the CAA syllabus for an 'approved' school - was 35 hours with a five hour reduction for a PPL A holder. I particularly recall training a fix wing potato farmer from the wilds of Norfolk in 30 hours and ten flying days.

At the other end of the scale, I have a few pilots who went to 100 hours at which point I stopped taking their money. Oddly enough, one was an Enstrom purchaser who on his first day's training actually said to his nearest ... If I do well today I might be able to bring the heli back home tonight! (true)

A few ppruners will know I run a helicopter scholarship for youngsters and the last three winners qualified as follows. Zoe Spain - 48 hours in 24 flying days. Hannah Nobbs - 46 hours in 27 flying days and Georgie Dixon to completion of solo qualifying cross country standard in 49 hours and 24 flying days to date.

My training records show, there are dozens of pilots who have completed the CAA course in under four weeks.

Now the interesting thing about most of these is they were all able to undertake a concentrated course flying 2 to 3 hours a day on a six day week basis over four weeks or so and in the summer.

Added to this, I'd like to think I take my pilots to a standard fairly well beyond the basic CAA syllabus, (at least 20 or so student flown full stop engine off landings to the ground, and when hours and time permit, a selection of tail rotor failures, nicely developed Vortex Ring and and the other likely emergencies.

I would emphasise that the helicopter used has been the Hughes/Schweizer/Sikorsky 300 and I don't think I could replicate the above results in an R22, although I'm sure the really experienced guys can.

However in common with our training industry, the bulk of my clients training over a longer period flying perhaps one or two hours each week, will almost always require the oft quoted 50-60 hours plus.

So what I will say to our very welcome newcomers is - especially those on a set budget ... try to arrange your PPL(H) course on a continuous flying basis and given a reasonable level of aptitude and dedication to the task, it is possible to get the licence in around £13,000 to £15,000 including VAT.

You do need to establish a good 'rapport' with your FI and contrary to what has been suggested on this thread, I believe it is important to be trained by one instructor if possible. Multiple instructors ... a definite 'yes' - but AFTER you have obtained the basic licence.

A further aspect, I'd like to mention is ... the aptitude test.

A specific trial lesson with the CFI at your local school can reveal all. But you need to make it clear you are seeking some idea of your flying aptitude and an assessment of your hours requirement. This will change the nature of the trial lesson you receive, which should be at least one hour.

There's no guarantee of course, but an experienced instructor can usually give you some flying hours requirement for the PPL(H) and guidance to help with your budgetting.

A few months ago, I produced an article for the aviation LOOP newspaper on the subject .... 'Choosing a helicopter school' There's plenty of tips there to help with your choice of a school. See www.loop.aero. Subscription is free!

Finally a few words on helmets. Well every kind of sense says a solid 'Yes' but we are in a commercial business and I'd not be too happy to jump aboard a BA triple seven to see the flight crew donned in flame proof suits and bone domes.

As has been said here, we pilots don't wear survival clothing when we drive and I take the view the same principle must apply to our private flying.

Luckily or otherwise, I haven't suffered an engine failure in almost 40 years and 13,000 flying hours, so neither am I prepared to spend the next forty years or so studiously avoiding the height/velocity curve on every take off and landing, which H/V curve by the way is neither a 'dead man's curve nor an 'avoid area'

For we private flyers ... it is "The area of extra caution"

Look at it that way and fly it that way.

Oh and just to finally say ... the above is not a punt for new students as I am booked for 2008, but is offered as a help to our new fliers. The future of our wonderful industry.

Take care all ...

Dennis Kenyon.

biggles99

9th Jan 2008, 20:32

Hi K77,

I have a couple of points to add:

1/ hang around the airfield and make yourself useful. You will learn, and almost certainly you'll get opportunities to fly - in the back or in the front - without having to pay. It's unlikely that you'll be able to log the time, but that doesn't matter. All it is costing you is your time and a smile, and possible a pint (not for you, obviously) at the end of the day.

2/ there aren't a lot of accidents. That's why they are newsworthy.
If there were over 3000 people killed in the air (in UK) each year as there are on the roads, then

(a) no-one would fly anywhere in anything
(b) if (a) wasn't the resultant then the forums and papers wouldn't bother reporting it.

And I agree with everyone who has said that there's nothing like it. I've been flying for 27 years, the last 16 in helicopters, and I still get that boy-ish grin every time I lift off, even after 2,500 hours.

Big Ls.

KNIEVEL77

9th Jan 2008, 20:33

Dennis,

Your time and input on this subject is greatly appreciated, you made some very interesting points, thank you!

I'm off to read your LOOP article now!

E77.

kiwi chick

9th Jan 2008, 20:56

Oh My God, are you really Dennis Kenyon?!

When I started flying helicopters I was subjected to hours and hours and hours - and hours - of footage of you that my instructor had on his PC, doing amazing things with a Schweizer. :D

...before he loaded me in the 300 and said "you will never ever ever attempt that or I'll kick your ass".

:\

Now, I hate to openly disagree with such an icon, but re the "extra caution curve".

With my very little time and experience, I'm not entirely sure that I would survive a failure or emergency when outside the recommended areas of the height/velocity curve?

My instructor demonstrated a couple of things to me but again, he has time and experience.

What say you?

Also I admire your comment about 100hr pilots still with no licence - I think the world has become too PC. Either that or people are just too quick to make money from someone who quite clearly isn't going to cut the mustard.

Lovely to read your post, Sir!!

KC :ok:

KNIEVEL77

9th Jan 2008, 21:06

Biggles99, yet more great points, thanks.

I was hoping that my flight school who also operate commercial Helicopters including our local radio stations daily traffic reporter might have a vacancy on the odd day for an extra member of staff............i'm hoping that i'm in the ideal position in that i'm not after a full time staff job (as I want to keep my current profession alive and as I dont work everyday of the week and irregular days) but am willing to help them out with anything when they're busy or as cover for illness and holidays!

I can always ask..............wonder how many people requests they get for that?????? :)

Senior Pilot

9th Jan 2008, 21:06

Dennis,

Just to gazump your mid 70's 35 hour PPL: mid 60's we only needed 30 hours :p

kiwi chick

9th Jan 2008, 21:14

Ooooh that reminds me of the Venison Recovery days here in NZ!

(well, not reminds me PERSONALLY cos I wasn't around then, but...)

They didn't even need a licence - all they needed was a type-rating from a fixed wing licence!! :eek: :eek:

and you KNOW the **** they got up to. Poor wee helicopters. :{

RJC

9th Jan 2008, 21:29

Interesting post by DennisK above.

I passed my PPL(H) after 45.1 (i.e. test at 45.1 hours), so it can be done. This was in a R22, with no previous experience.

I did the trial lesson, to meet the instructor and get an idea from them what they thought of me. At that point I got the medical out of the way before starting spending money. I would tell anyone to do the same, if you don't click with any instructor you will have trouble.

Looking back at my logbook, it took just under a year in all. I had a wait to do my QXC because of the weather. I tried to do one to two hours a week, with a few gaps because of work commitments.

I have to say, it is probably the best thing I have ever done, despite the cost.

whitus1

9th Jan 2008, 21:40

:ok:guys id like to thank you all for your help, Whirls i am working and doing my PPL(A) at anglia flight just two buildings away from sterling and so i hear the scheizer 300 is more reliable and "safer" than the r22, would anyone agree with this-schwiezer? or robinson? many thanks whistus

KNIEVEL77

9th Jan 2008, 21:42

Whistus, just a quick apology for 'hijacking' your thread but there's been some great advice given!

Keep it coming!

Ken Wells

9th Jan 2008, 21:46

After 25 years of fixed wing I passed my PPl(H) two years ago on R22 the typed on R44, I one of the best things I have ever done 50 hours start to finish over 12 months.

Still fly fixed wing, enjoy both.

Just witten an article for BLADES magazine out this month on fIx wing to Rotory hope you like it!:rolleyes:http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/125.jpg

KNIEVEL77

9th Jan 2008, 21:48

Sounds like its the best thing since sliced bread???????

I cant wait now!!!!! :ok:

whitus1

9th Jan 2008, 22:04

no problems knievel aslong as there is aviation chatter its cool:ok:

KNIEVEL77

9th Jan 2008, 22:06

Thanks Whitus!

Im hoping the answer to your other thread is the R22 as that's the cheapest way forward for me although my flying school also offer a Jetranger and a R44!

K77.

kiwi chick

9th Jan 2008, 22:11

Ummmmmmm.....

Is the R44 flown from the right... or has that guy got the cyclic tucked under his arm? :confused: :eek: :eek:

Whitus

I was once told by a Testing Office of vast experience:

"Anyone can fly a Robbie 22. Not anyone, however, can fly one well."

Having only flown a Robbie once (R22) I alas cannot comment... but the little things scare me ****less!! Haha! :}

whitus1

9th Jan 2008, 22:18

i think the r44 is a fantatic looking helicopter and will always be fantastic,they look great, they sound great, and hopefuly they fly great, are they relatively easy to control? i have had a on hour in a schweizerand found it very sensitive how is the r44?

whitus1

9th Jan 2008, 22:21

i dont blame you kiwi they do look incredible scary to fly in the little helicopters compared to oppatunity flights ive had in larger helicopters with air cadets in sea kings s-61s and griffins, the smaller ones look like they could snap haha, but i suppose the smaller helicopters must be the best to train in.:D

Whirlybird

10th Jan 2008, 07:25

On 100+ hour students...

A couple of years ago, I had a student who was worrying me. To put it bluntly, he seemed to have very little in the way of either aptitude or intelligence. Wondering if it was my lack of experience that was the problem, I mentioned it to the CFI, who flew with him, and then passed him on to the school owner too. We three then had a chat. By this time, the student had about 20 hours, knew himself that he was slow, and was getting incredibly tense and making even less progress. But we three instructors agreed that he was was making SOME progress, albeit very, very slowly. Now, the two things he did have were lots of dosh and lots of determination. He also wanted to go commercial, which meant that he'd need 155 hours before he could do the CPL course. So someone had a chat to him along these lines - you're struggling, it may take you over 100 hours to get your PPL, but you ARE making progress, so does it matter since you'll need that 155 hours anyway. He agreed, relaxed, and started doing better. I'm not at the school any more, but last I heard...can't remember details, but I think he was well on his way to getting his PPL, maybe even had it. Oh, he'd also swapped from the R22 to the Schweizer, and found things much easier.

So for the really slow learners....maybe there's more than one option.

KNIEVEL77

10th Jan 2008, 18:59

I have a choice of a R22 or an R44 and they do have a Jet Ranger although i'm not sure if it is used for training!

I've plumbed for the R22 as its the cheapest option, although I do love the R44.

mylesdw

10th Jan 2008, 19:55

whirlybird: That's an interesting story but you say that your 100+ PPL wanted to go commercial. How would his slow progress effect his job prospects? Would a prospective employer see it as a negative, especially since he would almost certainly up against other new pilots from the 'I went solo in 5 hours etc.' school. Just interested...

Whirlybird

11th Jan 2008, 08:23

I doubt it. I've only ever been asked about my total time, total instructing hours (for instructing jobs) and what types I'm rated on. Once you have your qualifications, no-one seems to care when or where or how or in how many hours it took you to get them. Or that's my experience anyway.

KNIEVEL77

11th Jan 2008, 08:52

Is there any time scale that one should aim to pass their PPL(H) in?

I collect watches and 70's toys and furniture and have done for years now, however my plan is to start to sell ALL of my collectables and use the funds for my PPL(H).

Just wondered if there's a maximum time scale for the PPL(H)?

4ftHover

11th Jan 2008, 08:56

I would aim for an hour a week if you can.

Long breaks in training can result in wasted time recapping on previous lessons. If you can afford it i found it beneficial later on in my training to have intensive weekends.

In the early days a double lesson was pretty over whelming.

Based on an hour a week average you probably looking at 16 - 18 months ?

KNIEVEL77

11th Jan 2008, 09:12

18 months?????

That's nearly 80 hours...........wow, will it really take that long?????

Its not the duration that concerns me but the cost!

What I don't want to do is start my PPL(H) and then have to pack it in half way through due to lack of funds!

Whirlygig

11th Jan 2008, 09:19

Quite a few people, myself included, have warned that a PPL(H) could take 70-80 hours; if you can't budget for that now plus all the incidental costs which can amount to a few grand as well, then you do need to consider whether you can complete it. And. after you've completed, can you afford to maintain the licence flying, say, an hour a month.

However, your job is such that you could fly for several hours a week and reduce the timescale that way. This may reduce the number of hours to completion but only by a few percent.

If you really want it, you'll find a way but you may well have to reorganise your finances!!

Cheers

Whirls

KNIEVEL77

11th Jan 2008, 09:36

Just a quick post to say I wasn't really sure how i'd be welcomed on this forum being a novice especially as it says 'Rotorheads A Haven for Professional Helicopter Pilots' of which I am not (yet)!

But i'd just like to thank you all so far for all of the wonderful help and advice you are giving me, it is very much appreciated please keep it coming!

Whirlygig

11th Jan 2008, 09:51

Oh don't worry, that discussion WILL come up; usually on an annual basis when some stroppy young commercial pilot wants to get rid of all the wannabees as we clutter up the forum. This is why a lot of the training threads have been collected together in one place and made into a sticky.

There is an awful lot to research about flying training; here is a good place but also look at websites of various training schools - some will be better than others but you may glean something useful from them. Have a look at Griffin Helicopters website; it's been put together by one of our number and contained a lot of very useful stuff. There's also the BHAB and the CAA itself has useful information on say, flying training schools (who's authorised to do what etc) and medical examiners.

That should keep you quiet and off the streets for a few days!!! :}:} Enjoy!!! :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

DennisK

11th Jan 2008, 18:22

Hi KC ... How's things down under.

Ref your note and my view on the FM H/V curve.

A couple of points for discussion. The manufacturer is obliged to produce the H/V diagram for the worst flight condition, ie max gross weight ... temp ... and zero wind. So the graph needs to be studied with that in mind. Some maker's produce several graphs for varying weight and flight conditions.

I take the view that pilots must know the published figures for the type they fly and make a personal decision relevent to their particular flying task requirements, type experience, and EOL handling skill.

I don't take the view that overall experience is necessarily important, type experience is. However, it does makes sense to restrict PROLONGED flight in the so called 'avoid curve' whenever the task requirement IS NOT compromised. In my filming days, I can imagine the Director's response if I refused the required shot for H/V reasons!

Filming 'Black Hawk Down' in an MD 500, I recall spending 45 minutes in the hover at 175 feet alongside Bob Zee for the overhead shot Ridley Scott wanted. Now that DID have me concerned!

But I will re-state my view ... when flying privately, I don't believe it is reasonable to adopt a flight profile as a way of life for the miniscule chance of a power failure. Touching wood, I'm still waiting for my first engine failure in over thirty years instruction.

Look at the situation this way. A sudden tyre blow out on a motorway at 70 mph, is likely to produce a major accident. But sudden tyre failures are rare so we don't drive in the slow lane at a constant 40 mph ... just in case.

I have to emphasise, the 'private' aspect here. Public transport flying with fare paying passengers is a different kettle of fish and the local controlling authority's rules are paramount.

Interesting to hear more ppruner's views.

Good, safe and happy flying to all,

Dennis Kenyon.

KNIEVEL77

11th Jan 2008, 20:23

Does anyone know if being a Freelance Sound Engineer as I am, the Helicopter training could be put through my books or would that have the tax man in a rage?

biggles99

12th Jan 2008, 06:50

Hi K77,

if you are careful and precise in your wording in your Memorandums and Articles and you take Minutes of meetings you have (assuming you run your business within a Ltd company)

training and flying CAN be claimed as an expense.

It's not complex, but you should take sensible advice from an accountant that is sympathetic to your requirements.

The basis of your justification is that

(a) you are NOT commuting to your usual place of work, and instead you have been contracted to go to and from various places in order to do the work you've been asked to do. Then, the fact that you choose to go by air (as opposed to first class rail, taxi, hire car, Smart car) has no relevance to the tax deductibility.

(b) the training is firstly required by law and secondly in the interests of heath and safety.

Watch out for Benefit in Kind - the usual outcome is that you will come to an arrangement with the tax man that nn% of your flying is for personal gain and the the rest is tax deductable. As an owner of a multi-site distribution business, our agreement with HMC&R was 1% personal, and 99% business.

We were satisfied with this outcome.

do check with someone qualified to advise you that knows your circumstances.

you don't have to have a Ltd company, nor does it need to be VAT registered, but it does help.

Whirlygig

12th Jan 2008, 09:35

Whilst I am not doubting that the above poster managed to get PPL(H) training through his business books, may I ask everyone to be very careful with this. This is an unusual allowance and not one I would say would be the norm.

On the whole, training of this nature would not be allowable by HMR&C any more than offsetting learning to drive costs would be!

Getting up to commercial level is different!

Cheers

Whirls

KNIEVEL77

13th Jan 2008, 10:02

More good advice, thankyou.

bladegrabber

13th Jan 2008, 16:31

Such a good thread for newbies and as whirls says let hope the pro's on pprune don't get too grumpy!

To add my 2 penny worth....
52 hrs training on R22 to achieve PPL-H with an excellent instructor in Aberdeen.

Dennis -your to blame for my lack of cash! after an hour in an Enstrom with you in the mid 1980's i was hooked and after years on autogyro's i made the leap onto the r22 and never looked back.Great training machine although i now fly the 300cb at Sterling which apart from the cost is even more fun.

Best piece of advice i could offer someone starting their ppl-H is find the right instructor for you and stick with him/her to the end if you can.
I still get the grin everytime i fly and i hope it never stops!

KNIEVEL77

13th Jan 2008, 16:37

bladegrabber

13th Jan 2008, 16:50

Knievel

The R22 is an excellent training helicopter and with the right training its as safe as any other.There are certain aspects of its low inertia rotor systm that require good handling skills which if taught correctly in the first place will keep you safe.

Many highly skilled CFI's have thousands of hours on R22's and swear by them as a training platform so don't be put off by everything you read about them.

BG

KNIEVEL77

13th Jan 2008, 16:54

BG,

Thank you for your reassurance, as in a lot of walks of life one negative comment seems to outweigh a thousand positive comments!

KNIEVEL77

14th Jan 2008, 00:33

If anyone from my flying school reads this PLEASE don't take it personally, this is purely for my information but what would happen if you block book a whole load of lessons at the reduced rate or you are half way through your training and the school goes out of business............do I have any more come back other than the usual?

Is their any type of insurance to cover this because travelling further afield to another school to complete my training would be out of the question.

KNIEVEL77

14th Jan 2008, 19:37

Sorry about all of these questions............is it advisable to buy ones own headset or just use the one thats installed in the helicpoter?

Whirlygig

14th Jan 2008, 19:48

Use the ones in the helicopter; having your own headset is more of a fixed wing tradition!

Cheers

Whirls

Ken Wells

14th Jan 2008, 20:01

I did my initail training on R22's and then typed on R44.
Still keep current pn both. R22 is a great little 'copter. I have even displayed it now two years running at our Local Members day air show.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/IMG_8274.jpg

At the end of the day as long as you are enjoying yourself the 'copter of choice doesn't matter.

To compare fixed wing, the R22 is for fun like a Piper Cub.
But for touring the R44 is better like a Pipe Warrior.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/125.jpg

manfromuncle

14th Jan 2008, 20:05

Use the ones in the helicopter; having your own headset is more of a fixed wing tradition!

Yes, if you want to go deaf in 15 years time.

Get your own headset. Flight school headsets are invariably cheapo bottom of the range Peltor ones with crap all over them, and god knows what else. Plus if you are flying the Schweizer you will need a decent headset as they are VERY noisy.

Whirlygig

14th Jan 2008, 20:15

Ooooh hush my mouth! I bow down to your superior wisdom!

Cheers

Whirls

rotorvision98

14th Jan 2008, 21:21

Hi there. I Instruct down at Swansea and in 2007 managed to get 8 pilots their PPL/H of these five of them got their licence at 49 hours including their GFT and the one at 39 hrs ( he had a couple of hundred fixed wing hours) the others were around the 55 to 60 hours mark. Hope this is of use to you.

manfromuncle

14th Jan 2008, 21:25

Whirls,

While you're bowing down there... give my shoes a clean eh?

ho ho!

Whirlygig

14th Jan 2008, 21:51

Surprised you didn't ask for something else :rolleyes:

Cheers

Whirls

rattle

14th Jan 2008, 22:16

Great reflection of JRED's shadow in the front corner Ken. Nice pic.

Now did anybody hear the recent call at Denham in a 44 of "5 on board"? Unique, but correct as there was a baby in the back in a rather intriguing safety sling.

kiwi chick

14th Jan 2008, 23:02

Yeah, sorry Whirls, but 'fraid I'm going to have to disagree with you too! :O

I got my own headset - admittedly while I was flying fixed wing first - but I used the adaptor so I could also use it in the helicopters.

Just think about how close you have the boom to your mouth, and think whether you'd like to share whatever the previous users have left all over it.

:oh:

Unless it's different over there? I've never seen anyone here sterilise or clean a headset mike... :hmm:

Whirlygig

14th Jan 2008, 23:15

Of all the heli students I've met, I've only known one who had his own headset and, like you KC, he was originally fixed wing! Plus all helis I've flown already have headsets in them which need to be disconnected and made safe.

Perhaps we're more hygenic in Norfolk?

Cheers

Whirls

kiwi chick

14th Jan 2008, 23:37

Quite possibly Whirls, by the sounds of it! :)

Need money

15th Jan 2008, 08:54

Ken,

Re: The R22

You fly from HeliAir at Booker ?? (or Denham) - I was flying that at the weekend ?

CHeers

KNIEVEL77

15th Jan 2008, 22:11

Okay so if I WAS to buy a headset what would your recommendations be please?

4ftHover

16th Jan 2008, 08:12

K77

In your early days of training i wouldnt bother spending the money.

I purchased my headset when i started to do solo Nav. The headsets in the machines i flew were not clear enough and i liked to hear precisely whats being said, especially when you're on your own.

I purchased a Bose x headset approx £650 these come with ANR and were a massive improvement.

The problem of struggling to hear ATC calls was gone and i could concentrate more on staying airbourne !!

:ok:

Zero Thrust

19th Jan 2008, 17:20

I did my PPL(H) with "Hughes500" using a Hughes 300 helicopter at Dunkeswell and he managed to get me through in 39 flying hours over 3 weeks going solo in 7.5 hours.

This was helped by staying at a local B & B and flying up to 4 hours a day. I would thoroughly recommend AH Helicopters services.

I would also advise any students not to turn up on day one of their new course with a hangover as it makes you look a complete idiot when asked the simplest questions !

Ding Dong

20th Jan 2008, 01:46

Chaps,

There's some un-nerving comments about the R22 in the thread entitled 'Robinson Helicopters', just wondered if I should have any reservations about training in one?

Bladefrabber, 52 hours, i'm impressed, lets hope I can do it in that!

If anyone from my flying school reads this PLEASE don't take it personally, this is purely for my information but what would happen if you block book a whole load of lessons at the reduced rate or you are half way through your training and the school goes out of business............do I have any more come back other than the usual?

Is their any type of insurance to cover this because travelling further afield to another school to complete my training would be out of the question. Okay so if I WAS to buy a headset what would your recommendations be please?

55-60 Hours, wow is it going to take that long?

My Helicopter Training School reckon it should take only 45 hours, I know that is the minimum anyway but is your 55-60 more realistic or are you just covering yourself!

Better tell me now as I haven't budgeted for those extra hours!!

You are having a laugh right ?! ... :hmm:

My question to 77 ... Have you thought hard about anything to do with helicopter flying ???? ... :confused:

P.s ... If your worried about how much it will cost and how long it will take to obtain your PPL(H) then what are you going to do after you have the licence ?? you will still be forking out the ££££££££££ to keep current and get ratings (if you wish) LPC's etc etc .. it will never stop ££££ ! :rolleyes:

Sorry, hope this does not come across bad ........ :oh:

KNIEVEL77

20th Jan 2008, 18:50

Ding Dong,

Many thanks for your post!

K77.

manfromuncle

20th Jan 2008, 20:32

A PPL in the UK will cost you about £15,000.

Get a David Clark headset. Best there is.

Ding Dong

21st Jan 2008, 14:08

[QUOTE]Ding Dong,

Many thanks for your post!

K77./QUOTE]

Hi 77

I know it came over harsh ... I am sorry. I know money is an important thing in everyones life, but I guess my point is that the cost of being a PPL'H' is a big on going commitment, they dont really tell you all about that when you set out to do the course ... your budget will have to extend to more than the license itself .. if you dont keep current you will be flying wet every time you want to go up, and dry hire is not much less than wet hire (shows how little instructors get paid) ..... You will never experience anything better than flying a helicopter (within reason) .. but you cant worry about the cost as a PPL'H' .... :)

Hughes500

21st Jan 2008, 19:07

K77

Do not bother with a headset, buy an Alpha Helmet, they will give you better noise protection ( even v a bose), better vision in strong sunlight and God forbid ...............they are harder than your head.
Some on these sites will ridicule people for wearing one, but think of all the rather friendly bits of metal and plastic in the machine !! They may be expensive but would you get on a bicycle these days without a helmet ??
If you know the right place to go one will set you back about £ 800 plus vat
For your ppl h expect to take 60 hours and be pleased when you do it in around 50. Very few people get it at 45 hours. Expect to pay about £ 15 k plus the vat for 60 hours plus another 1K for medical, books, examiners fees, Caa fees and ground exams if your school charges for these as a seperate.
Thanks Zero thrust, hows life with you ?

Whirlygig

21st Jan 2008, 20:19

They may be expensive but would you get on a bicycle these days without a helmet ??

Yes, every week when I cycle to the paper shop!

Cheers

Whirls

Hughes500

21st Jan 2008, 21:31

Whirlygig you obviously have a hard skull !! Personally I wouldnt go anywhere on my bike without one.

Whirlygig

21st Jan 2008, 21:34

I've no idea; I've never fallen off! It's all down to perceived risk?

Cheers

Whirls

Laggie

21st Jan 2008, 22:03

Off topic a bit, anyone with statistics for choppers?

Deaths / 1 miljon hours of activity
Skydiving
128,71
Swimming
1,07
Car
0,47
Waterskiing
0,28
Home activitys (cleaning etc)
0,27
Bicykling
0,26
Flying FW
0,15
Living in general
1,53

KNIEVEL77

22nd Jan 2008, 18:48

Then we get back to that old subject of what is and isn't the 'right' things to wear, especially while training without being laughed at?

1 Helmet,

2 Nomex Flight Suit,

3 Flying Gloves,

ETC!

VeeAny

22nd Jan 2008, 20:42

K77 who cares whether people laugh or not, its YOUR Training and YOUR neck at the end of the day. I taught a guy a few years ago who was not the best handler ever but did have a nomex suit, a few instuctors commented on it, but they got over themselves (probably me included, I cannot remember) after about 10 minutes and then got on with the job in hand.

I've never met Hughes500 but if he is who I think he is then one day he will have the last laugh on some of us, he flies in a helmet, does a lot of teaching and operates at least one 300 and a 500.

Some people ridicule him for doing this but, at the end of the day he has a greater chance of surviving an accident, which in a single engine helicopter he is 'perhaps' more likely to encounter than some of us. That does of course not preclude the twin pilots from taking a swan through the windows and in the face which may be just as bad (if not worse than) as an engine failure if it hits the pilot in the face.

I don't fly in a helmet for my day job, but maybe I should, the passengers may not like it, but I am questioned every now and again about what would happen if I met with an early demise whilst in command of an aircraft with several people in the back.

I won't change from what I do but I do respect greatly what Hughes500 does by sticking to his guns about flying in a helmet.

GS

KNIEVEL77

23rd Jan 2008, 16:54

VeeAny,

Great post thanks!

The main dealer for Alpha helmets also sell reconditioned ones, any thoughts on buying one of those instead of a brand new one?

metalman

23rd Jan 2008, 21:35

this is the standard observation entry test,try it, be honest and let me know how you did.

how many times does the letter ! F appear in the following

FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE
SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTI
FIC STUDY COMBINED WITH
THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS...

metalman

Whirlygig

23rd Jan 2008, 21:46

6 :zzz:

What's this got to do with the cost of a PPL?

Cheers

Whirls

metalman

24th Jan 2008, 08:35

with your sense of humour you should go all the way ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

KNIEVEL77

24th Jan 2008, 17:09

I no understando??????

Whirlygig

24th Jan 2008, 17:43

Neither does anyone else :}

Cheers

Whirls

KNIEVEL77

27th Jan 2008, 11:43

Good, I thought it was just me that didn't understand that post!

princepilot

23rd Aug 2009, 20:12

Hi,

Been looking at this and it says "You are required to undertake a minimum of 45 hours of training including 25 hours of dual control with your instructor, 10 hours of solo flying, 5 hours of instrument flying and 8 written exams."

So why dont the hours add up , 25 dual, 10 solo and 5 instrument are onlyh 35. Wheres the other 10?

Also , i have found a place that does R22 Dual training £215ph and solo is £165.

So am i right when i calculate i would pay 25x£215 and the rest would be at £165 as i wouldnt have an instructor with me in the helicopter/

Matt

Whirlygig

23rd Aug 2009, 20:47

Wheres the other 10?Whereever your instructor thinks you need extra; dual circuits, navigation or solo.

So am i right when i calculate i would pay 25x£215 and the rest would be at £165 as i wouldnt have an instructor with me in the helicopterHowever, your instructor is still on duty on the ground and you are flying solo on his licence so, in this circumstance, you would be charged dual rates.

Cheers

Whirls

Flingingwings

23rd Aug 2009, 20:51

Matt,

Don't know where you looked but your not exactly correct.
Civil Aviation Authority Home Page (http://www.caa.co.uk) and use the search field to find LASORs
Section C2 details the requirements for a PPL(H).

Minimum course hours (without any credits for military flying, or holding a PPL(A)) are 45 Hrs.

The 25 hours of dual must include 5 hrs of simulated instrument flying.

The exact wording is 10 hours of supervised solo flight time - and this has to include 5 hrs of solo cross country flying and one cross country flight of atleast 100nm to involve full stop landings at two different airfields in addition to the airfield of departure.

The figures quoted are just the minimum. So if per chance you completed all the dual syllabus in 25 hours then you could do more solo flying etc etc.

That said average course duration is probably closer to 60-65 hours for many students, so I would not budget on just the minimum hours :ok:

The price you quote for dual more than likely does not include VAT, and in addition may not include landing or circuit fees. The solo rate you mention probably also needs VAT added and is more than likely a Self Fly Hire rate (ie what you'd pay once you held a licence and were flying solo). See the bit above - your solo flying time during your ppl course is 'Supervised' solo - ie an instructor is supervising what you do from the ground and will therefore be billed at a dual rate by the training school.

Also budget for a medical, course books and equipment, a ppl skills test fee and the flying time for the test (roughly 1.5- 2 hours), and the fee the CAA will charge you for the issue of your licence.

Rgds
FW

jeepys

23rd Aug 2009, 20:58

Those hours are the minimums that you must have together with a total of 45 hours in order to get your licence.
If there were no minimum hours required for areas like cross country, solo etc then you could hammer around the circuit for 45 hours.

As for paying the solo rate when you are flying as a solo student then yes your instructor is required to be available on the ground the whole time you are flying so you will pay the dual rate.

If you are trying to budget for your flying training then remember 45 hours is the minimum. If you budget that figure to get your licence then you may be dissapointed.

princepilot

23rd Aug 2009, 20:59

Hi,

Yeah it excluded VAT , so 45hrs at dual rate with VAT is £11126.25.

So how much extra on top of that would it be?

And is that a good price do you think?

I have the funds available now so could do 2hrs a day 7 days a week so would probably need close to the 45 than 60-65 so ive been told because the gap between the lessons arent big?

Matt

Trans Lift

23rd Aug 2009, 21:57

Doesn't matter how close the lesson are together, it usually takes the average person over 50 hrs for the PPL. But you may be above average, so you'll have to see. Other option is head over to Bristow Academy in Florida and do your JAA ppl for cheaper. I know you'll have to pay for accomodation but at least you won't have any weather delays and you will be able to get it done quickly. Just a thought!:ok:

Camp Freddie

23rd Aug 2009, 22:05

princepilot,

you should listen to flingingwings he speaks the truth.

I know there are people around who just did the 45 hours but
you should budget for around 60 hours plus the extras mentioned.
never pay for blocks of hours in advance
2 hours a day 7 days a week is IMO a silly idea.
you need to keep up with the groundschool, otherwise you will end up with a break at the end of the course while you get all the exams done before the test.
full time in this context should be no more then 5 days a weeks 2 hrs/day and you will really have to read fast to keep up.

also in sept 07 you said

I live in stoke on trent, 29, a big lad (22 stone, but not all fat , lol), always wanted to fly , but dont have the money yet.

I believe all the prices quoted are on an R22, max seat weight of 240lbs (17"2)
my calculations suggest that you need to have lost 68lbs since then for this not to be academic, or budget for a R44 with a max seat weight of 300lbs, only 8 lbs to lose in that case !

I beieve you need to stop thinking about "minimums" and think about good and effective training, decisions on which will depend on what your intentions are in the longer term.

good luck

regards

CF

toptobottom

23rd Aug 2009, 22:14

Matt

As FW says, an ab initio student will probably need somewhere between 60 and 70 hours before being up to the standard required to pass the exams. I'd budget for 65 hours (£16k inc VAT at those rates, plus overheads - course materials, exam fees, medical, etc.), but remember there are lots of students that have taken more than 70 hours (sometimes a LOT more!) to get their ticket. Don't run out of cash with only a few hours left to do!

Two things:
If you have a limited time in which to complete your training, don't assume that you'll get in 2 flying hours per day, 7 days a week; I think that's very optimistic. Apart from things like the good old British Wx, I think you'll find the average over the course will be more like 1 hour per day - if you're lucky.

Also, don't be tempted to pay for the whole course up front in return for a bigger discount unless you are satisfied the school is financially sound. I'd suggest negotiating something around blocks of, say, 10 hours at a time. There are lots of schools struggling at the moment and you'll be right at the bottom of the food chain when a receiver prioritises the list of creditors.

TTB

Trans Lift

24th Aug 2009, 01:46

As FW says, an ab initio student will probably need somewhere between 60 and 70 hours before being up to the standard required to pass the exams. I'd budget for 65 hours (£16k inc VAT at those rates, plus overheads - course materials, exam fees, medical, etc.), but remember there are lots of students that have taken more than 70 hours (sometimes a LOT more!)

Usually the students that go over 70 hrs are well BELOW AVERAGE. I know a lot of people who have got their license with minimum hours or just over them. But yes, dont be more focused on minimums over quality of training.

61 Lafite

24th Aug 2009, 07:43

Usually the students that go over 70 hrs are well BELOW AVERAGE. I know a lot of people who have got their license with minimum hours or just over them.

It's a sad reflection of someone's ability to see what is important in a pilot if you really believe that to be true.

Time to pass the test means little. Judging a student by the time it takes them to learn rather than their ability to absorb the information and retain it over the long term, becoming a safe pilot, would be a more sensible way of looking at it.

Hopefully it was just a badly worded comment. I'd far rather be in the air with the person who took the time to make sure they got it all right in their mind than the person who rushed it all and forgot it the next month.

If someone can absorb it in 45 hours, great! If they take 70, also great!. If they haven't absorbed it for the long term, that's a problem.

Lafite

Whirlybird

24th Aug 2009, 07:51

Firstly, have you got your medical? If not, do so now. I had a student who was super-fit, but due to some anomaly which turned out to be nothing, he had to wait several months before being able to go solo, which wasted a lot of time and money.

Secondly, those who take over 70 hours to get their PPL(H) are as likely to have suffered from poor weather as lack of aptitude...and winter is coming along.

Finally, don't you think you're concentrating too much on basic costs? Does the school have a good reputation; do you get on with the instructor; will they be able to fit you in for the hours you seem to have planned to fly - these sorts of things are far more important than the cost per hour.

princepilot

24th Aug 2009, 07:56

also in sept 07 you said

Quote:
I live in stoke on trent, 29, a big lad (22 stone, but not all fat , lol), always wanted to fly , but dont have the money yet.
I believe all the prices quoted are on an R22, max seat weight of 240lbs (17"2)

Ive lost alot of weight since then , im only 17 stone now so only 238lb! so looks like i will just fit lol

Whirlygig

24th Aug 2009, 08:26

Unfortunately 2lbs is the weight of your shoes! Most schools have a limit of 16 stone; they also need to consider the instructor's weight and the amount of fuel you could carry for a lesson. You may also wish to consider learning in a Schweizer as they are capable of a greater "payload".

Cheers

Whirls

princepilot

24th Aug 2009, 09:01

Hi,

TBH i dont care what i learn on as long as the hourly rate is ok. Schweizzers are alot more if i remember right.

Perhaps i need to hit the gym twice a day for a few weeks!

manfromuncle

24th Aug 2009, 09:57

If you're doing your PPL in the UK I would budget £17,000. It sounds a lot, but by the time you've paid for books, groundschool, landing fees, CAA fees, medical, admin fees, examiner fees, VAT, a few hours extra training as you were ill/went on holiday/got busy at work/had bad luck with the weather/got stuck on a manouvre, you will be spending close to that.

And there's nothing worse than running out of money two-thirds way through your PPL, or putting yourself under pressure as the money is running out.

And... anyway, you will need some money left over to actually do some flying for fun/r44 rating etc once you have your PPL

About 70% of people give up flying entirely after their PPL due to cost.

Oh, and hardly anyone gets their PPL on an R22 in minimum hours. Unless they have significant flying experience from elsewhere (fixed wing, military etc).

Hughes500

24th Aug 2009, 12:04

The average my students take to pass is 54 hours in a Schweizer.
Having worked in schools with both 300 and 22/44 the 300 students normally pass in about 12% less hours
Dont forget the following costs.
1. Medical £ 175
2. Books etc etc £ 220
3. PPL exams can be as much as £ 50 a go times 7 ( thats if you pass first time)
4. Skills test fee allow £ 250 plus examiner travelling
5. CAA licence issue £ 168

Do not fly more than 3 sessions a week ( session is 2 lessons in a morning or afternoon), the brain in the first half of the course needs to assimilate the information, let alone trying to keep up with the book work.

chopjock

24th Aug 2009, 16:24

I did my PPL(H) in less than 45 hours, including the test. It can be done if you are switched on, eyes wide open and wide awake, and have confidence and talent. In addition, I paid the whole course up front and recieved a healty discount. Did it in 4 months over the winter season. I enjoyed every minute and at the time it was the best thing I had ever done. Go for it. :ok:

brett s

24th Aug 2009, 17:10

I got my PPL(H) in 43 hours including the exam, in about a month from start to finish - flying often is good, just not more than an hour or so at a time in the beginning because you'll be pretty brain fried. This was in the R22 in the late 80's before the SFAR...

It also probably helped that I had about 800 hours of military enlisted crewmember time, so being in a helicopter to begin with wasn't new. I also was familiar with radio usage & could read maps pretty well :ok:

pitot212

24th Aug 2009, 17:18

I do agree with Hughes500 and the 300 is better to train on. By far the best way to do it is on a one to one basis and if you can afford to take the time away from work, all in one go. I'm luckily enough to work in a very stable climate, in fact I manage to achieve 90% of my work. Not many people can say that! I've had students through on average, from zero to hero in about 3 weeks. Some a bit longer and some a bit quicker. So aircraft and weather are the key factors IMHO. :ok:

_Obiwan

2nd Sep 2009, 23:11

This is a really useful thread. I have now completed just over 40 hours and feel I still have quite a long way to go. The biggest problem by far has been the weather. Talk about three hours a day five days a week makes me wonder whether there should be a "northern factor" added into the length of time taken to complete a PPL(H). I set aside three afternoons a week for flying. Since October last year I have probably had about 8 actual hours (pathetic I know). As a rough calculation I would say 25% of the lost time has been mechanical issues (the school only has one R44), 10% of it has been illness or other time conflicts. The rest has been weather. Perhaps I am just unlucky. I have talked to a couple of FW PPL students and they have had similar problems with the weather.

On the positive side though I have stopped focusing on the number of hours required and resigned myself to taking lessons whenever I get the chance and simply chipping away at it. In addition, it has tested my commitment to learning to fly and given me ample opportunity to absorb information. Although I have had some longish gaps in flying, I don't think I have fallen back too much although I'd like to be making faster progress.